ABC to Probe 'The Ten Commandments' in New Series

oldstudent »

Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Viking,

Your are welcome and thank you for your kind words.

Grace and Peace,
Jim

viking »

Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

His kid
thanks for the clarification. While I accept your general argument regarding the continuing value of the OT I don't really see from my point of view how it is sufficient without the NT. While you state that the early Christians not having the NT taught Christ from the OT. I do not think that is quite accurate. I agree that they taught how the OT prophesied the Christ but the OT of course does not contain the new revelation of God's will embodied in the teachings of Christ.
The idea that the early Christians did not have the NT in one sense is true that they did not have a written down book containing all of the scripture that today we refer to as the NT. However they had to my mind an even better version of the NT. That being the first person testimony of the gospel and teachings of Christ. This is the heart and essence of the NT whether transmitted orally or in written form. I believe that it is more accurate to say that they taught the direct NT illuminated by the historical and prophetical backdrop of the OT.

Hiskid »

Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:45 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

viking

You are correct in surmizing that it was not my intention to lead one to believe that Jesus was only a prophet and I am sorry if it appeared that is what I was saying. Jesus is and was God in human form. He has always been, right along side God the Father.
Many Jews believe He was a great prophet, and even muslims believe He was a prophet, but submissive to Mohammad. But that is beside the point.

As to people obcessed with the 10C's and the OT, If they can receive the same blessing from these things that we receive from the NT, then I guess that would be okay. the first believers only had the OT, and Christ was taught to them from it. Personally, I find the NT to be the greatest blessing, though. What I have a problem with is those who claim the OT is done away with, that it is of no value, and that God is through with the Jewish people, and that America is the new Promised Land. These who are into replacement theology are sadly mistaken.

Prophet »

Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:10 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Amen. Jesus said that the whole law is wrapped up in these two commandments. Love God. And love your neighbor. If you accomplish both of those, you would automatically fullfill the 10 commandments.

viking »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

His Kid thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the value of your years of study and experience to illuminating scripture. While I do not dismis the OT or try to diminish its importance I find it astonishing that some Christians (and I am not including you in this observation) are obsessed with the 10C and the OT especially Genesis almost to the exclusion of the teachings of Christ.
I do feel that your recent post does indicate a difference between us. Your statements

The Jewish people had drifted from what God had said. The Rabbis had added to His Word greatly, making it impossible for the people to even begin to keep all th laws they dreamed up. The Pharasees were legalistic (Boy is THAT an understatement!) Jesus lived His life demonstrating the right way to live, the right way to treat others, the right way to keep God's Law, which was a far cry from what had evolved.

Seem to imply that Christ was not qualitatively different than other prophets who called the people of Israel back to righteousness under God's law. Perhaps this is not what you mean but it is the impression that is given. To me Christ is not a prophet calling the nation back to righteousness under the old covenant but rather the embodiment of a new covenant and a new revelation of the glory and majesty and will of God.

Hiskid »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:08 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

viking
"His Kid if there is no distinction between the gospel of Christ and the 10 commandments then what need was there for his teachings."
Of course there is much more to Jesus'teachings than the 10 Commandments! That goes without question. The Jewish people had drifted from what God had said. The Rabbis had added to His Word greatly, making it impossible for the people to even begin to keep all th laws they dreamed up. The Pharasees were legalistic (Boy is THAT an understatement!) Jesus lived His life demonstrating the right way to live, the right way to treat others, the right way to keep God's Law, which was a far cry from what had evolved. For example, God gave 6 commandments concerning Sabbath. Rabbinical Judaisim to this day has something in the neighborhood of 1300 laws concerning Sabbath alone. Imagine the THOUSANDS of "laws" that have been added to God's 10 Commandments!
They meant well, I suppose. They thought that they would encircle God's Law with all these laws of their own, and if te people tried to keep their laws they would not break God's Law. An example would be that the Jeish people do not eat meat and milk products in the same meal, or on the samedishes for that matter. The Biblical command was that "You shall not boil a kid in it's mothers' milk." From that, rabinical judaisim gets "no cheeseburgers for you!" They ignore the act that when the angels came to Abram he served them curds (cheese) and meat. Jews don't eat the hind quarter of beef because when Jacob wrestled with the angel, the ange dislocated his hip in order to get away. I fail to find the logic in that one either.

I understand that we cannot know the heart of God. His ways are not our ways, and our ways are not is ways. But I don't believe the Bible is terribly confusing, or mystical. When you study it in the light it was written, the Jewish perspective, it actually becomes much more clear and easy to understand.
We need to understand that for many years after the Resurrection of Christ there was no written word except the Old Testament. The Apostles taught Christ from the Torah and Prophetic writings. Since they were all Jewish, of course they wrote from a Jewish perspective, not that of a gentile. All I can tell you is that once I began studying Scripture from that Jewish perspective, I gained a much deeper understaning of the Bible. Perhaps tis does nto appeal to some people. It si their choice of course. I can only relate what I have learned and what I believe.

viking »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Jim,
a bit esoteric, but on point. It is always a little shakey when we try to prove a preconcieved point through linguistic gymnastics with a language which at best is extremely dificult. Thank you for the clarification which rings much truer than the earlier posts interpretation.

oldstudent »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Genesis 1.1:

The transliterated term of Ayth (or eyth or ET) is defined as follows :

Apparent contracted from 'owth in the demonstrative sense of entity;
properly, self (but generally used to point out more definitely the
object of a verb or preposition, even or namely) -- (as such unrepresented in English) or,

sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding
and indicating the accusative

This is a marker that is used many times throughout the Tanach (OT) and is
not always connected to God such as in Genesis 4.1 among other passages.

The eyth is used twice in 1.1 and is attached to "created" and "the earth."
Linguistically speaking the meaning has nothing to do with the eternalness of God
and this marker is used throughout the Tanach as a language marker.
Although this instance could have a link to the Alpha and Omega reference in
Revelation, there really isn't any reason to think that there is such a link.
One must spiritualize the language marker in order for the marker to get any
significance outside of the function it performs and spiritualizing is dangerous
and usually leads to eisegesis and bad interpretations (but not always).

Grace and Peace,
Jim

Online4Him »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:36 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Oldstudent,

We all fall short don't we? I appreciate your disposition and your posts . . .

Thanks for sharing,
Peace

oldstudent »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Online,

No apology needed but your words are appreciated. I just wanted to make sure I didn't do something or appear to be doing something like that. Although I am FAR from perfect, I do attempt to be civil at all times.

Grace and Peace,
Jim

Prophet »

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

hiskid,

Me argumentive? I'm not the one arguing that one particular day is THE sabbath, as you are....

viking »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

His Kid if there is no distinction between the gospel of Christ and the 10 commandments then what need was there for his teachings. I would contend that you have mistated the case. While the world was created by and through the word I believe this is much less linear and concrete than you portray and much more mystical than we can understand fully.
In regard your contention
The two commandments Jesus gave, to love God and to love you neighbor as yourself covers all 10 commandments given in Exodus. The command to love God covers the first 5, and the command to love you neighbor covers the second 5.

While this may be true the converse your statements imply that the 10 commandments cover the commandments of Christ is not true. For example it is clear that the second 5 commandments are restrictive in nature prohibiting unlawful behavior but not placing an affirmative burden upon the hearer. Christ's command is quite different than these placing an affirmative duty upon us all. The parable of the good samaritan was not to show unrighteousness under the law since neither of the first passerby's violated any of the latter 5 commandments. It was to show that the simply following the law was inadequate. This is shown over and over in
Christ's ministry. For example Christ's teaching to the young rich man who claimed to have obeyed all the law. Notice Christ does not dispute this but rather again points out that this is insufficient to be perfect. Instead he lays a new affirmative burden on the questioner.
This is why I made my point and stand by it that not only in this ABC feature but also in the disputes over 10C posting in courthouses etc. etc. Christians who pursue these things are diverted from our true commision of spreading the gospel of CHRIST and his teachings.
Perhaps this is because quite frankly it is much easier for example to obey the command Thou shalt not murder than it is to lay down ones life not only for a friend but even for those who revile and hate us.
We are called in the end to a much stricter and narrower path than the 10Cs.

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

PS have a great night everyone!:D

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:12 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

And for further clarification, NO, I do not believe we willbe making sacrifices in the Kingdom!!!!!!! Jesus was our perfect sacrifice once and for all time.

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:04 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Prophet

I am not condeming anyone for what day of the week they worship. I have stated clearly that wny day is fine for worship, and everyday would be preferable to just one day.
I don't understand why you are being so agrumentative!

At least some of the days of the week are named for Greek gods as i recall. Saturday, for Saturn is one I remember.

If God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested ont he seventh, the Sabbath, then the first day of creation was day one, just as Genisis says, "and the evening and the morning were the first day."

The Jewish people may have lost track of some things in their various periods of captivity, but they never lost track of the days of th week. We know there was a period of something over 250 years miscalculated during the reign of a certain king before Jesus, for instance, but the feasts and the Sabbaths are correct.

I will restate: We are free to worship God any and every day of the week, but Sabbath was given in Genisis and in the 10 Commandments as a day of rest. PERIOD.

Genisis 2:
2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:49 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

And, reformation, no there is no difference between a believing Jew and a believing gentile.

As for the Messianic JEWISH movement,I have been a student of a Messianic Rabbi for a number of years, and for a period of perhaps 5 years attended a Messianic Jewish congrgation. I found that for me, understand the entire Bible from a Jewish perspective was much more enlightening than that of a gentile understanding. Afterall, the Bible was written first for Jews, and it was written BY Jews, who naturally thought and wrote in a Jewish manner, with a Jewish understanding, which is needless to say, different from that of gentiles who a) many have the misconception that God is through with the Jews and b) tend to place little or no importance ont he Old Testament. There was never intended to be a dividing page in the Bible between the Old & New Testaments. The whole Bible is about Jesus and His wonderful gift of salvation. Messianic Judaisim simply struck a chord with me. It rang true in my spirit. Since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why wouldn't His Holy days be valid today just as yesterday?

Research the Holy days as pertains to Christianity. I'm sure you could most likely find it online. I have a book myself that teaches all about the holidays, and I have found ti quite helpful.

Since Israel is God's chosen land, Jerusalem his holy city, and the Jewish people his chosen people, it stands to reason that when we enter the kingdom, we will be most likely be remembering His Holy days, worshiping in the way he ordained in the Bible. It is clear that we will be keeping Sukkot, because the Bible says cearly that those who don't go to Jerusalem for this celebration wil not receive rain for the next year.

Blessings

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:35 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

reformation

I am not so fortunate as to be physically Jewish, but as a born again believer, I am grafted into the Jewish family, or olive tree, being nourished by the Jewish root, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The "Jewish " holidays are in fact, Biblical holidays and are for everyone. They are both celebrations of things that happened in the past and things that are still to happen. For instance, Passover is the rememberance of God sending Moses to bring the israelites out of Egypt as you know. But did you know that the Exodus is also a shadow of the greater Exodus at the end of the age,the Great Tribulation? But Jesus was also the perfect passover Lamb, and the final perfect sacrifice for our sins. Pentecost is the NT word for Shavuot, or feast of first fruits. Jesus was the first fruit. Rosh Ha Shannah is the Jewish new year, but it is also when the rapture and resurrection will occur in some future year. Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, will be the day of God's Wrath immediately after the resurrection. And finally, Sukkot, or Feast of Tabernacles, will be when the wedding super of the Lord will take place, under the Chupa, and the milenial reign will begin. I have only skippped through the Biblical holidays to give you an idea of the importance of them for the Christian church. Believe it or not, Christianity is actually a branch of the Jewish faith, and since we are grafted into the Jewish family, we become Jews when we are saved. Thus, those holidays are for us, too. I have participated in the Passover Seder (feast or dinner - the word seder actually means "order"), and held one in our home. It is one of the most CHRISTIAN things I have ever been a part of. The story that is read, the afikomen (last piece of unlevened bread - Matzos) represents the body of Jesus. It is placed under a small pillow called the stone, and at the end of the meal anchild is to go get it, but comes back and says the stone has been moved, and the afikomen is gone. The host pays a ransome and the child produces the matzos.

The matzos is pierced, and is stripped inthe baking process, representing the piercing and the stripes our Savior bore for us.

But that is enough for now.

Blessings

Hiskid »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:15 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

But Jesus taught the 10 Commandments! In fact He WROTE them, just as he created the heavens and the earth. John 1 says: in the beginning was the WORD (Jesus) and the WORD (Jesus) was with God and the WORD (Jesus) WAS GOD....

The two commandments Jesus gave, to love God and to love you neighbor as yourself covers all 10 commandments given in Exodus. The command to love God covers the first 5, and the command to love you neighbor covers the second 5.

Jesus taught Old Teatament, just as the Old Testament taught Jesus! Did not Jesus say to the Pharasees, "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me??"

Jesus is in the first sentence of the Bible. In the Hebrew, it reads, "Bereshit bara Elohim ET* Ha Shmiam v'et ha'eretz."
Bereshit - in the beginning
bara - created
Elohim - God
ET - (no translation)
ha shemiam - the heavens
v'eretz - and the earth.

*ET*, (the Word) the letters Aleph and Tov, is nottranslated, but is the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, or, as in Revelation, Alpha & Omega, meaning the beginning and the end.
So, you "the Word" sitting right there, beside Elohim from the very beginning. When Jewish rabbis run across the ET (aleph & tov) the say "the word" because ther is no translation for it.
Another interesting vs is Zech 12:10 - 10"I will (A)pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Him whom they have (B)pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one (C)mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

In Hebrew, it would read........look upon ET they pierced... Interesting, they will look upon "THE WORD" they pierced.

Online4Him »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:22 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Oldstudent,

The sarcasm that I mentioned earlier was not from you and I apologize if I made it appear that way. In regard to Catholicism changing the day . . . They do claim to have made the change; The Catechism of the council of Trent for parish priests, translated by McHugh and Callan; 1937, page 402 says:

"But the Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday."

And The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, 1910, page 50.

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Prophet »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

" The first day of the week is called just that, and the second and so on until you get to the day before Sabbath, or Friday. That day is called "the day of preparation", and that evening is called Erev Shabbot, or Sabbath eve. Further, on the Hebrew calander, Monday is not the first day of the week, but Sunday."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, so man did name the days of the week. For all we know, God could have started his creation on a Tuesday and rested on Wednesday. If you are going to condemn someone for observing the Sabbath on a Saturday, or a Sunday, it just goes to show your immaturity.

oldstudent »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Online,

Just a question, did you think I was being sarcastic? If so, there was no sarcasm written or meant in my reply. As to refuting the unbiblical claim of the RCC changing the day, that isn't answered in Scripture clearly but is answered quite clearly by the writings of the early church leaders. If you weren't being specific to me in reference to the "sarcasm" issue that is good because as I said, there was absolutely none utilized or intended in my post although sarcasm is used sometimes quite brutally around here.

Grace and Peace,
Jim

Online4Him »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:29 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Oldstudent,

I hear what you are saying regarding false claims. We should “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15). We are saved in Christ period but what is troubling for me to hear is Christians chastising other Christians who worship on Saturday without giving Scriptural support for Sunday observance. We all need to stay on course and dismiss false claims as you stated earlier and this is why I cannot remain silent while others mock some for their beliefs. If anyone brings a charge of unorthodoxy against another then I suggest that they first present their point from Scripture alone and secondly that they do so without sarcasm.

Peace

reformation »

Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

Hiskid,
Is there any distinction between Jew and Gentile? As believers in Christ the Answer is no. I don't think I need to get my facts straight on false theology that is behind a so called messianic christian movement. If that was the case then as a Christian I would keep all the traditions since my mother and grandmother are Jewish. What's the value? Is it to add more to what Christ has already done? Does it bring one closer to God or should I write G-d. Read Galatians. Matter of a fact study Romans. I have all the facts 66 books! Old Covenant/New Covenant. Which one are we in? Hummm I wonder?

Hiskid »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:28 pm Agree: 14   Disagree: 0

Actually, in New Testament times, after the Resurrection,Scripture says believers brought their offerings on the first day of the week. Now, at that time, offerings were not writing a check, they could consist of money, or they could consist of food stuffs, etc. It was considered work to carry things on Sabbath, so they brought in their offerings on the first day of the week. Jesus did not change Sabbath to Sunday as some have been taught. He kept Sabbath and every Biblical Holy day. True, He and His diciples picked heads of grain on Sannath, but it was nto a Biblical commandment of Sabbath that they could not eat, just as Jews dont' eat meat & milk at the same meal because OT Law said you shall not boil a calf in it's mother's milk, rabinical rabbis stretched it to any meat and any milk. It is my understanding that Jesus arose at some point after sunset on Sabbath,(which would technically be the first day of the week, since Hebrew days begin and end at sunset) thus not profaining the Sabbath. I have heard a teaching that he may have risen late in the day on Sabbath, but I have not done the follow-up study. Sabbath has been "the Lord's Day" ever since the creation, and since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, I believe it still is. Of course we can worship any day of the week that we want, or everyday for that matter, and should!! Irregardless of the day we choose to worship, Sabbath was given as a day of rest.

Prophet, I did nto say God began creation on Monday!!!!
God created the heavens and the earth in six days, and on the seventh, the Sabbath, He rested. The names of days that we have today are not Hebraic at all. The first day of the week is called just that, and the second and so on until you get to the day before Sabbath, or Friday. That day is called "the day of preparation", and that evening is called Erev Shabbot, or Sabbath eve. Further, on the Hebrew calander, Monday is not the first day of the week, but Sunday.

From the creation, the Sabbath has been the last day of the week, and in that respect alone we can count backwards and see that the first day of creation had to have been on Sunday, since God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh. all down through history Jews have kept Saturday Sabbath. An interesting note is that some of the western US natives also kept Sabbath. It is speculated that they may be some of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, having crossed the land bridge that once spanned between Russia and Alaska.

Hope this helps!
Blessings

Hiskid »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:05 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89

We have always been saved by grace! The Law was never for salvation!! Old Testament saints were saved by grace, not keeping the law! The firs half of the Law was given as instruction of who God is and how to love the Lord thy God with all your heart. The second half are commandments concerning how to love you neighbor as yourself.

oldstudent »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Online,

I am making no judgment about the tradition being Sunday as far back as we can in the early church, just that the documents show it is not a Roman church invention in reference to the sun god. The idea of Sunday being Roman stealing of the Sabbath is far from the truth and that matters none as to whether one is a Roman Catholic or a Protestant or an Orthodox. When false claims are presented that impugn an organisation (no matter if we like that organisation or not) we should not let it go. At worst it is correction, at best, an opportunity to learn.

Grace and Peace,
Jim

viking »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

To me what is so unfortunate about this is all this focus on the 10 C's rather than on the teachings of Christ.

believer »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I might be mistaken but wasn't that debate on adultery supposed to be a part of this series?

Online4Him »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

DP,

Yes, it will be interesting to see how ABC presents the Ten Commandments; I think they will give a liberal slant to them. We will see . . .

Prophet,

Amen to your post . . . Our lives are hid in Christ not in a day.

Prophet »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:56 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

So far there has been no evidence provided as to whether God started creation on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or even Saturday. Man named the days of the week. Man decided what day to make the first day of the week. If you are going to condemn someone for observing the Sabbath on a Saturday, or a Sunday, it just goes to show your immaturity.

Daniel Paul »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:48 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

It should be interesting to see what ABC comes up with seeing as they are part of the liberal media!!! It's going to be like a train wreck. You know what's coming but you just can't look away....

Online4Him »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:12 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Blacksho89

As I mentioned earlier; I will not impose what I personally believe about the Sabbath but for an honest discussion I am willing to address this subject.You are at liberty to worship the Lord on which ever day you wish but the discussion here has been which day is the Sabbath. This is simply another bible study if you will and nothing more.

Blacksho89 »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:06 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 0

The Sabbath is Saturday, of course. But we no longer have to obey the mitzvahs against using the telephone, etc...

Online4Him »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:51 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89,

No one here is speaking salvation by the law; the question is which day is the Sabbath . . .

Oldstudent,

Most recognize that Sunday is an adopted tradition in honor of the resurrection; however, there is no Scriptural mandate for its observance . . . Besides, the Sabbath was made for man not the Jews (Mark 2:27).

oldstudent »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

Hiskid,

Your claim of the Roman church changing the day to Sunday is incorrect. Long before the church was dominated by the Romans, the believers worshiped on the first day of the week as per the documents of the Roman Empire demonstrate:

90 AD: "...every Lord's day, hold your solemn assemblies,
and rejoice: for he will be guilty of sin who fasts on the
Lord's day, being the day of the resurrection..."
(Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 449)

110 AD: "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the
observance of the Lord's Day"
(IGNATIUS Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

200AD BARDESANES: Wherever we are, we are all called
after the one name of Christ Christians.
On one day, the first of the week, we assemble ourselves together (On Fate)

# 200AD TERTULLIAN: "
We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to
those who call this day their Sabbath" (Tertullian's Apology, Ch 16)

# 250 AD IGNATIUS: "If, therefore, those who were brought
up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope,
no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day,
on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death
(Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, Chapter IX)

From almost the very beginning we have documented that His people met, worshiped and celebrated on the first day (Sunday) and not on the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday).

Grace and Peace,
Jim

Prophet »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

Hiskid,

Can you prove that God started creation on a Monday?

Blacksho89 »

Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Are we saved by grace, or by the Law?

Hiskid »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:23 pm Agree: 12   Disagree: 0

The Lord's day is and always was Sabbath, not Sunday. The catholic church took it upon themselves to change the day of worship to Sunday, in honor of Sol Evictus, the pagan Sun god. Even their chruch leaders will openly admit that the Bible does not support the change to Sunday.
Protestants have taken to calling Sunday the Lord's Day, but it is not. There is evidence in the original Greek NT that Jesus acrually arose at a point just before sunset on Sabbath (Saturday). I have not done a full study of this as yet, but plan to. It was presented by a Messianic Jewish Rabbi named Rico Cortez on a Sabbath study CD that I have.

God appointed Saturday Sabbath as His day of rest from the very beginning, in Genisis, long before there were any Jewish people. Of course, we can worship any and every day that we wish, but Sabbath was given as a day of REST.

Hiskid »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:15 pm Agree: 16   Disagree: 1

Reformation

"2. What day do believing Jews and Gentiles celebrate the Sabbath? Sunday!"

That is just not true!! I know many Jewish people, and Messianic believers (Christian Jews), and for several years attended a Messianic Jewish congregation, and I can promise you that they keep BIBLICAL Sabbath (Saturday), Kosher, all the Biblical Holy Days, and worship in a Jewish tradition, in both Hebrew and English.

You really should get your facts straight before posting fabrications.

Online4Him »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

It is true; that everyone one must be persuaded in their own mind as to which day they worship for the Sabbath, however, in the context of Romans 14, the word “Sabbath” is not found in the entire chapter. It is assumed that Paul is talking about the Sabbath. But is he?

The chapter says, “Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations” Romans 14:1. This chapter seems to be dealing with “doubtful disputations” (the Jewish ceremonial feast days) that Gentile believers did not receive. So, the context is clear; these “doubtful disputations” have nothing to do with the Ten Commandments or the weekly Sabbath.

Daniel Paul »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:08 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Under the law only one day was the Sabbath. Under grace, everyday can be set aside for God!

TLChild »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:00 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Baptism is what we are supposed to do in order to acknowledge Yahshua's death and remember it, not make Sunday the new Sabbath or Yahweh's Holy Day.

Romans 6:3-5 (King James Version)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

TLChild »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Matthew 24:20-21 (King James Version)

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Acts 13:42

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Hebrews 4

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Leviticus 23:37-39 (King James Version)

37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

TLChild »

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

The 7th day Sabbath is supposed to be observed. If not, then why would Yahshua state to the disciples that there will be great tribulation, and pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath. Therefore, if the 7th day Sabbath is not to be observed, then why would Yahshua state this, because He was definitely speaking about future events. Furthermore, the book of Hebrews clearly breaks down that Christians are supposed to still observe the 7th day Sabbath, and those who do not observe it is because of unbelief. Hebrews 4:1-11 clearly states that if there were another day, Yahshua would have made that clear. However, none of the disciples have stated that the Sabbath has been changed. If people want to quote Paul in regards to not observing sabbaths, new moons, drink offerings, an holy day, and so forth, one can look in the old testament and know exactly what Paul meant. In Leviticus Yahweh told the children of Israel that they would observe Sabbaths besides His Sabbaths. Therefore, since the 7th day Sabbath was created before sin was on the Earth, it was not nailed to the cross--Moses' laws and commandments were, not Yahweh's. Yahweh's laws were written with His fingers and spoken by Him and Moses' laws were written with his fingers and spoken by him, which those are the laws that were nailed to the cross. The Lord's Day is the 7th day of the Week, Genesis lets us know that.

Online4Him »

Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:41 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Reformation,

I will not impose what I personally believe about the Sabbath but for an honest discussion I am willing to address this subject. From a purely biblical perspective Sunday is not the Sabbath; most recognize that Sunday is an adopted tradition in honor of the resurrection, however, there is no Scriptural mandate for its observance . . .

reformation »

Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

The Sabbath is the Lord’s day, of which no person or nation can rob him with impunity. 2 Chron. 36:21; Neh. 13:18. It has ever been a sign between the Lord and his people. Ex. 31:13. Since its first institution the Sabbath has been the Lord’s (katapausis) rest, before it can be that of a believer. Heb. 4:1. To the people of God there still remains, after the abrogation of the Mosaic economy (Sabbatismos) the keeping of a Sabbath—to be a weekly memorial of the works of creation and redemption as taught in Heb. 4:9,10. This Sabbatismos is to them a lively emblem, a sure pledge, and real antepast of their (katapausis) everlasting rest.—David Steele, (1882).

reformation »

Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 9

1.What day do the non-believing Jews celebrate the Sabbath? Saturday 2. What day do believing Jews and Gentiles celebrate the Sabbath? Sunday! What day did Christ rise from the grave? Sunday! Who is our rest in? Christ and his resurrection. He is Lord of the Sabbath. So in saying that, according to Scripture Sunday is our Sabbath. If you like more info I will be glad to share.

weekenderman »

Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

BTW, as we left Virginia after our summer vacation this past summer, my wife was dying to experience a Chick-Fil-A. We stopped at one in Roanoke, and the experience was less than thrilling. Slow, costly and the food wasn't even that great. Oh well.

weekenderman »

Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:30 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Mathetes: I do respect businesses that don't force their employees to work on Sundays, but not because it's "The Sabbath." I just think that allowing employees time off to attend church is a good thing.

Online4Him »

Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:15 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Here is a side note: Many believe that Revelation 1:10 is not referring to any day of the week, but that it refers to the Day of the Lord . . . The book of Revelation frequently uses the language of the Old Testament in reference to this great day. For example, compare Joel 2:30, 31 and Acts 2:20 with Revelation 6:12-17 . . .

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come” (Joel 2:30, 31).

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come” (Acts 2:20).

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17).