Updated 08:10 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Society|Tue, Oct. 20 2009 02:38 PM EDT

Atheists Promote 'Good Without God' Message in Big Apple

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

"A million New Yorkers are good without God," according to one atheist group.

Those words will be plastered in a dozen subway stations in the most populous city in the country beginning next week.

The United Coalition of Reason says the New York ad campaign is intended to reach out to nontheists and let them know that they are not alone. At the same time, the organization wants to break stereotypes and let the public know that atheists are good people too.

"We want everyone to know that people can be good without religious beliefs," said John Rafferty, a spokesperson for Big Apple Coalition of Reason, which is affiliated with the United coalition. "There is a lot of misinformation out there about us. But we humanists, agnostics and atheists are part of society. We're your friends, neighbors, coworkers and family members."

The $25,000 campaign is funded by an anonymous donor and will run for a month. The ads state: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?"

The one million New Yorkers is an estimate based on findings from surveys on religion, said Michael De Dora Jr., the executive director for the New York branch of the Center for Inquiry, according to The New York Times. The 2008 American Religious Identification Survey, released in March, revealed that 15 percent of the U.S. population claims no religion.

Ads will be launched in the Big Apple just before the release of Harvard Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein's new book, Good Without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do Believe. The United Coalition of Reason teamed up with the Harvard Secular Society for the first ever National Secular Service Day this past Sunday where nontheistic people volunteered for community service. The service day was aimed at promoting the message that secular groups are committed to "leading full and ethical lives."

Christian apologists have asserted, however, that true morality comes from God. William Lane Craig, a Biola professor and one of the world's leading philosophers of religion, argued in a debate earlier this year with renowned atheist Christopher Hitchens that without objective morality being rooted in God, man is left with subjective relativism. He further contended that life is objectively meaningless for the atheist because he is heading toward emptiness and death.

Hitchens, meanwhile, said there is no proof that people closer to a supernatural being act better than people who are not. He also claimed that being free from false belief and helping others to do the same brings meaning to his life.

The New York atheist ads are part of a nationwide effort by the United Coalition of Reason, which aims to improve the way nontheists are perceived by average Americans. The MTA New York City transit told NBC New York that as long as advertising doesn't contain nudity or four-letter words, it's protected by free speech.

Since the coalition went public in March, the group claims that local Coalitions of Reason are being organized across the country. Billboards and other ads have gone up in Dallas and Fort Worth, Texas; Des Moines, Iowa; Phoenix, Ariz.; and other cities. Ads are slated to appear in California later this year.

The Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard announced that it will award the United Coalition of Reason with the 2009 "Harvard Humanists of the Year" next month.

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  • flee »
    Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:59 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    flee, God will only send to hell those who willfully choose to reject salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ alone! If by ethical you mean fair then if God were totally ethical we'd all be destined for hell!

    and what your saying is that we'll all go to heaven?
    so who's in hell anyway?

  • Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    flee, God will only send to hell those who willfully choose to reject salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ alone! If by ethical you mean fair then if God were totally ethical we'd all be destined for hell!

  • flee »
    Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:55 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god, but God does consider the costs of belief and will send you straight to hell. He's so ethical you know?

  • Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    As would I! Very much!

  • Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gguy, I know we bump heads a lot but I have truly appreciated your transperancy in this matter and hope to hear it does work out, but you are right garageguy and sidestepping an issue are not synonomous in any way, but needless to say who am I to talk. Take care my friend!! And if our physical paths should ever cross I'd look forward to having a Mountain Dew with you!!

  • Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hi believer. If my aunt took the stand you do on domestic partnerships or civil unions, I would consider that a huge step in the right direction. But she has never said that. I get the feeling she would much rather keep her views to herself and just not talk about it. I'm not a fan of sidestepping difficult situations or discussions, so that also disappoints me.

    I think you are right, this rift will only heal by one of us in time changing our view. The sad part is, I don't foresee that happening. She is in her 60s and like many people in that age range she does not often contemplate new ways of seeing things.

    Thank you. Your encouragement in this has given me a lift, a new willingness to try a little harder...again. I doubt things will ever be like they used to be, but I will do my best to not write her off completely. There is so much good in her, and so much good in our relationship.

    I wish and hope for the day when no one cares about who anyone else falls in love with. It is such a silly thing to waste our time on.

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, I take it she has said the latter. Based on that I believe only time will heal your relationship with her or one of you changing your mind on the issue. What would you do if she took the stand I take about domestic partnerships?

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "Why do either of you have to live by the beliefs of the other in this matter with regards to your relationship with each other?"

    Good question, believer! My point exactly!

    I think she should be able to say, "I do not favor it or understand it because to me marriage is primarily a religious institution, but I do understand that a civil marriage LICENSE is a non-religious thing and if you want one I support your right to get one."

    By her instead saying, "I don't favor your right to a civil marriage license due to my religious reasons" she is in effect forcing her belief on me. That disgusts me. I don't know how someone can be so callous toward someone they love.

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, I just saw something in your second post. Why do either of you have to live by the beliefs of the other in this matter with regards to your relationship with each other? And in fact it appears you've never done that before so why start now?

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, if her church has that hard a grip on her then I'm very surprised she has been so accepting of you in spite of your homosexuality. Plus, you assume this is not her own personal conviction with regards to her definition of marriage! But it appears we've taken this as far as we can and I do pray you and her will reconcile this since she does indeed sound like a very special lady and I know how much you mean to each other. And I thank you for your transparency in this discussion!!

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, also, to clarify: even though I do not subscribe to christian beliefs I would never, ever, ever advocate that christians should be barred from rights, protections, or priveleges that I enjoy.

    My aunt can believe anything she wants. What is not ok with me is her foisting that belief onto people who don't share it. Why should I live my life by a belief of hers that I don't subscribe to? More importantly, why would she expect me to?

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    No, believer, I don't see my aunt's rejection of same sex legal marriage as a rejection of me. I see it as her failure to handle two distinctly different things separately. I also see it as her incomprehensible willingness to steamroll my civil rights in the process.

    I don't care if her church is #1 in her life. But we have a situation here where #1 and whatever number I am can easily coexist, if she will only let them. But her church tells her to draw a line in the sand, and she does anything they say so even though it hurts me she feels she has no choice. I think she has a lot of choice. Both can coexist, but she won't let them. She won't even entertain the notion.

    Her religion has led her to believe I am unworthy of a right that she currently enjoys. How can that be? What kind of religion does that? She wants to believe what her church tells her to AND have me shrug it off as a simple disagreement, but I think that is disgusting. If I belonged to a group that told me I had to consider a whole class of people as bad, even though they do no harm to anyone, well let's just say I would leave that group immediately and not look back.

    I am sure she would like to move merrily along clinging to her view AND continuing to enjoy the relationship she and I have. But to do that I would have to say to myself, "Even though she does not believe my legal rights are as important as hers (because her church convinced her so), I'll just embrace her anyway." Well no, I won't do that.

    She can go spend her time with other people like her, who also remain staunchly secure in their little world of beliefs. I don't like where I fit in to that world, though, so she can do it without me.

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    gguy, I wasn't trying to compare myself to your aunt but to you. You're seeing your aunt's rejection of your view of same-sex marriage as a personal rejection of you. The same way I initially see people's rejection of God's plan of salvation as a personal rejection of me. But when I step back I realize that chances are they are not rejecting me but they are rejecting what I've presented.

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    gguy, I can almost guarantee that the furthest thing from your aunt's mind is to treat you or make you a second class citizen!! The same way I'm sure a majority of people who reject Christianity see me as less than them. They like I believe you aunt are opposed to an idea, a view and have no animosity toward the person who shares that idea or view with them.

  • Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:52 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, two points I must make:

    1. You said your religion is as important to you as my civil rights are to me. That is fine, I accept that, but the difference here is my civil rights don't interfere with her religion, yet her religion makes her believe she can use it to interfere with my civil rights. Your point only applies if people like you and my aunt were forced to enter same sex marriages themselves, which of course is silly.

    2. If you and my aunt hope to live in such a way that makes nonbelievers come to your view, you are going about it in entirely the wrong way! The last thing I will do with christians who work against my civil equality is listen to them. I'm not curious about the wonders of their religion, because from the get-go I am turned off by the meanness of it. If religious persons supported gay civil equality (because it has nothing to do with them, because no one is hurt or victimized by someone being gay, out of compassion, and for so many other reasons), I for one would be far more likely to see them as people of admirable compassion. I'd want to know what this light is in their life. The way most christians act now, I've seen all I care to see.

    I do live my life in the best way I know how. That's why it is all the more shocking when people like my aunt let themselves believe I am lesser under the law. If she can't discern what matters from what doesn't here, why would I want to continue that relationship? If she can't support me living my life my way, why would I want to share my life with her?

    It is so sad. I know you can feel the sadness of my loss of this beautiful relationship, and I really appreciate your empathy and concern. But I simply can't abide by my loved ones not being able to separate their religion from my civil liberties. I can't.

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    al, you're beginning to sound like a broken record as I imagine I am, but I am not forcing my views on anyone since I can't. When I go to vote it is a personal and private matter that I don't have to defend or explain to any one it is a right and responsibility that I am afforded as a citizen of this great nation!!

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, to finish up, my prayer is that God will allow me to live my life in such a way in front of them that they will not only see that I care about them but more importantly that God does and hopefully they in turn will come to see what I've shared is true and they will come to Christ before it's everlastingly too late. So maybe you should prayerfully consider simply living your life in a way that your aunt will come to see your point of view in this matter and even if she doesn't come to agree with you maybe she'll understand just how important this issue is to you and be more sensitive and respectful to your beliefs!!

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, internet went down earlier and totally zonked my response to you, but here it is. Jesus declared Himself to by the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one could come to the Father but through Him and I believe that with all my being because God believes it with all His Being and proved it by sending Christ to die on the Cross and shed His blood so everyone could have the opportunity to become a child of God. I try my best to share that with as many people as possible and especially those people who I am close to like relatives and friends so that they will come to Christ before its is everlastingly too late!! But many times they don't want to hear or they don't believe it or they even tell me in no uncertain terms to stick it where the sun don't shine. Should I just say to hell with them and walk away? Of course not, not that I'm not tempted to at times, but considering what Christ did for me and considering what's in store for them if they don't turn to Christ, I ask God to give me His love for them and the courage I need to be the best testimony for Christ I can be. It's not easy and without the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit in my life it would be almost if not impossible for me to do that at times. And at times I blow it and talk out of turn and lose my temper, but I simply do my best and allow God to do the rest to stick to it because I truly care for these people and want to see them become part of the family of God. Now I know you don't believe a lot of what I said from a religious perspective, but that's as important to me as your desire to receive your civil rights is to you. And I just hope maybe you cna find it in your heart to be patient with your aunt and restore your relationship with her and not miss out on having a wonderful and meaningful relationship with her as I have with some of my relatives and friends who have not yet come to know Christ in a very real and personal way.

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "If those against it don't want to marry the same sex then no one is forcing them to do that. Same sex couples just want equality under the civil law and aren't asking for anyone to marry them in a religious ceremony who doesn't accept them."

    AMEN!!

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    garageguy »Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:55 am

    -------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Great points , wonderful argument makes perfect sense hopefully some others will see the sense in it as well and finally understand the concept has nothing to do and will have no effect on their religion as many Christians already have..

    I met with quite few people here recently who held a 1 year observance against this state's anti same sex marriage legislation, it was great people honked horns and it appeared not one person this time yelled anything nasty out of a speeding car window.

    There were many different Christian Organizations present showing that it is just a few the f&e crowd, some catholic and mormon groups who are still not able to see the difference.

    Eventually the matter will be settled and people like the 1967 case of interracial couples will gradually fade away to accept the Civil Rights and equal status of everyone. It is just sounds so silly to force another person to follow the religion of someone that is not practiced by the people the law affects. If those against it don't want to marry the same sex then no one is forcing them to do that. Same sex couples just want equality under the civil law and aren't asking for anyone to marry them in a religious ceremony who doesn't accept them.

    Refusal of benefits is a major problem and that too is a civil, non religious issue, since granting those rights will have no effect on anyone but the people they are allowed to have.
    You of course will notice no valid secular reasons are ever given to support the anti same sex people, they just rely solely on their bibles demanding everyone follow their beliefs under the guise of voting when it is clear they simply want everyone to practice their faith and believe as they do as the norm when it is not. They contend under revisionist history that America was established as some religious country and the Treaty of Tripoli demonstrates absolutely this is false. They ignore logic and truth when given to them and won't listen when the facts state they are wrong to force their religious views on others. They will not listen so it is up to the rest of the country to use the same process to do to them what they have done to others, it is very fitting since they judged first and later they will be judged, right in line with the illogical premise they hold to in forcing us to endure their injustice and soon they will be made to follow the justice they denied everyone.
    TFR

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    garageguy »Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:55 am

    -------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Great points , wonderful argument makes perfect sense hopefully some other will see the sense in it as well and finally understand the concept has nothing to do and will have no effect on their religion as many Christians already have..

    I met with quite few people here who held a 1 year observance against this state's anti same sex marriage legislation, it was great people honked horns and it appeared not one person this time yelled anything nasty out of a speeding car window.

    There were many different Christian Organizations present showing that it is just a few the f&e crowd, some catholic and mormon groups who are still not able o see the difference.

    Eventually the matter will be settled and people like the 1967 case of interracial couples will gradually fade away to accept the Civil Rights and equal status of everyone. It is just sounds so silly to force another person to follow the religion of someone that is not practiced by the people the law affects. If those against it don't want to marry the same sex then no one is forcing them to do that. Same sex couples just want equality under the civil law and aren't asking for anyone to marry them in a religious ceremony who doesn't accept them.

    Refusal of benefits is a major problem and that too is a civil, non religious issue, since granting those rights will have no effect on anyone but the people they are allowed to have.
    You of course will notice no valid secular reasons are ever given to support the anti same sex people, they just rely solely on their bibles demanding everyone follow their beliefs under the guise of voting when it is clear they simply want everyone to practice their faith and believe as they do as the norm when it is not. They contend under revisionist history that America was established as some religious country and the Treaty of Tripoli demonstrates absolutely this is false. They ignore logic and truth when given to them and won't listen when the facts state they are wrong to force their religious views on others. They will not listen so it is up to the rest of the country to use the same process to do to them what they have done to others, it is very fitting since they judged first and later they will be judged, right in line with the illogical premise they hold to in forcing us to endure their injustice and soon they will be made to follow the justice they denied everyone.
    TFR

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:44 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer »
    Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag

    al, I am not forcing my views on anyone since I simply can't do that, but last time I checked we live in a nation where we are allowed to both voice and vote our opinion and you are free to do the same. And as I said if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land I will respect same-sex couples right to be married and I would defend their right to it as long as it remains the law of the land. But do to my Christian beliefs I would not perform a same-sex marriage and realize in the sight of God He does not see them as a married couple. So I don't know where you see any hypocrisy and especially when you consider I do have homosexual friends who we simply agree to disagree on these issues, but have both a high regard and respect for each other.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: I have asked numerous times for the valid secular reasons that anti same sex marriage people have and it is always none. Therefore when you vote without any secular reason you are forcing by majority the minority to accept your religious ideology. where in the law does it say if your not a f&e member this law doesn't apply to you? It doesn't and it is exactly what you have done, it is directly in line with your religious ideology.

    Be honest admit that it is, you know it is fashioned directly from it and the definition you use is exactly that you continue to preach and post here.

    TFR

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer, your points are well taken. I truly would like to mend the relationship with my aunt but I don't think I can. I have spent the last four years trying, but for about the last year I find I have little respect for her. How can I embrace someone in the special way she and I used to, when my respect for her has eroded and the cause of that erosion is her failure to consider me her equal? I don't think that's much too ask.

    Which brings us back to religious "marriage" vs. civil (legal) marriage. I have no problem with her wanting same sex couples to have no marriage status in her church. Why would I care? It's not my church. In fact I support her in that because I support her religious freedom.

    But civil marriage is something different. They are two separate, distinct, non-connected institutions. Atheists who are heterosexual can get married. So clearly there is no religious requirement to get a marriage license. Right?

    Somehow this simple distinction seems to be amazingly difficult for religious people to grasp. I don't understand that.

    I expect my aunt to figure it out. My legal marriage has nothing to do with her religion. Period. If she can't figure that out, and support my legal equality as a separate issue from her (or any) religion, I have no use for her in my life. It is as simple as that.

    I would hope that any person would feel the same way: if someone in your family or friends honestly does not believe you should be treated equally under the law, why would you want that person in your life? Why would you feel such low self esteem as to find that acceptable? There are plenty of other people in the world who will love you unconditionally.

    believer, thanks for always discussing things in a civilized way. It is much appreciated.

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:02 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    marlena, having read your other posts this one seems out of place or am I simply misunderstanding you on this issue?

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Flagged as inappropriate. show marlena, so Christians are just to roll over and play dead and let this world go to hell in a handbasket? No, God has called us to join Him in reaching this world with His plan of salvation and that requires people to recognize that we are all sinners and need to turn from our sin and turn to God by putting our complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone. It also calls for us to take a stand against sin to include the passing of laws that either willfully violate God's Word or encourage people to live in sin. We need to do this as tactfully and loving as possible but we must do it! hide

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:52 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    When I think about the judgmental arrogance I have seen and felt all my life from christians, the righteous attitude that because they believe such-and-such they are entitled to stomp on my civic equality, and the eagerness to shun science and knowledge in favor of supernatural belief, I sometimes get pretty angry too.

    Mostly the anger comes when either I personally suffer from the hands of christians or when I see the world being dumbed down to willfully embrace illogical faith over logical fact. Sometimes I feel it's like dumping hundreds of years of human knowledge to live in the dark ages.
    ------------------
    bactrim garden

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    al, I am not forcing my views on anyone since I simply can't do that, but last time I checked we live in a nation where we are allowed to both voice and vote our opinion and you are free to do the same. And as I said if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land I will respect same-sex couples right to be married and I would defend their right to it as long as it remains the law of the land. But do to my Christian beliefs I would not perform a same-sex marriage and realize in the sight of God He does not see them as a married couple. So I don't know where you see any hypocrisy and especially when you consider I do have homosexual friends who we simply agree to disagree on these issues, but have both a high regard and respect for each other.

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    gguy, I am doing my best to be sensitive to your issue and in no way am I trying to trivalize it, but for my Dutch friends nuclear weapons on their soil was not a trivial issue to them either. But you are right I can't fully empathize with you as I have never been in such a situation. But as a hospice chaplain I've sat at the bedside of many a dying person and one thing they and their families all had in common for the most part was to understand what is truly important and they all came to the same conclusion that what was most important was family relationships be it husband and wife, parent and child, and so on. Your aunt had the courage to be honest with you and now you're holding it against her and no she doesn't have anything to lose but she does have someone to lose YOU!! So what do you want from her, for her to lie and say she's okay with something she's not and what kind of relationship would that lead to. When I was growing up I had few real friends and I'm not sure I was close to any of my adult relatives and I would have given anything to have one of them to accept me for who I was chinks and all!! You've got an aunt who from what you share has been just that in your life and now you're willing to give that up because she disagrees with you on thisone issue! Like I said I can't truly emathize with you, but I'm praying you'll do what you truly need to do! Even though we disagree a lot I have much respect for you and will respect any decision you make, but I've got to admit I do hope you get things worked out between you and your aunt as she does sound like a very special person in your life!!

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:28 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    believer »Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm gguy, by you saying you wll only accept her as a person if she accepts your view of same-sex marriage you in essence are forcing her to accept your view!!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: It amazes me that you can make that statement to GG and not see your own problem in this debate.

    You continue to stress your biblical based ideology as support to force others through online posting and support voting away of the Civil Rights of others, yet you don't see your own shortcomings while doing it.

    You justify your basis in your beliefs and yet don't see that making others comply with your will is forcing upon them the same practices that you tell GG is wrong to do. What hypocrisy you demonstrate. You act as if GG is engaging in something then you fail to recognize exactly the same conduct you yourself are doing in preventing and continuing to support the prevention of equal rights to LGBT Community members.

    Thanks for posting the perfect example to illustrate the point so well!!!!
    TFR

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:27 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    believer, that's all very easy for you to say. I think if you were in my position you might not feel that way.

    I understand what you're saying. I have never been, nor will I ever be, a "my way or the highway" kind of person. (Quite the opposite, in fact.) There are many, many times when I have had (and still have) great relationships with people I have opposing views on. This is different.

    This is not about one of us likes Coke and one likes Pepsi. It's not about being a Yankees fan vs. a Mets fan. It's not as simple as something like Republican or Democrat. We are talking about my civil equality. My right to be treated by the law the same as she is. How much more basic can you get? Do you really want to minimize that? Do you really mean to tell me I should just look the other way?

    You make it sound like I'm digging my heels in over something trivial. That astounds me! How trivial would it be to you if you and your spouse were barred from having a marriage certificate? Do you honestly mean to tell me you would buddy up to the people who favored that kind of discrimination against you? I don't think you would.

    To make matters worse, nothing even has to change for her! Nothing! You make it sound as if her supporting my equality would mean she has to give up her home or lose her right hand. Not one thing in her life will change when I can get married. Not one. She doesn't even have to come to the wedding if she doesn't want to. So in the meantime, she opposes my equality under the law...even though it has no effect on her life one way or the other.

    Even if I had the power to take away her right to equal treatment under the law, I would never, ever, ever do that to her.

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    gguy, I'm not saying you should accept her opinion, I'm saying you should look past her opinion and focus on the close relationship you had, a relationship that allowed her to accept you, homosexuality and all!

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    gguy, by you saying you wll only accept her as a person if she accepts your view of same-sex marriage you in essence are forcing her to accept your view!! Either she accepts your view or you will have little if anything to do with her, sounds pretty forceful to me. When we were stationed in Hollan in the Air Force in the early 80s there was a large group of Dutch citizens opposed to nuclear weapons. And in fact a couple who we got very close to were members of an opposition group and took part in protests at several US bases. We didn't even know it until we saw the anti-nuke buttons on her coat. But we were able to set our differences aside and still become close friends, but yet I know they were very passionate in their views on this matter and yet they were willing to set them aside in order to be our friends. They had Dutch friends and relatives they could hang out with and they had no need to be our friends and yet even though we were a part of the very organization they were opposed to they were still willing to be our friends. If your aunt means that much to you I can't understand why you can't set your difference of opinion aside on the issue of same-sex marriage. She accepted you as a person before she knew your thoughts on this issue and you did the same. Has she in anyway said to you that because you're in favor of same-sex marriage she thinks less of you as a person now? If not then I think you owe it to her to let it go and continue to grow in your relationship with one another.

  • Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:50 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Hi believer. I simply disagree. My aunt is free to think whatever she wants, but I have too much self respect to surround myself with people who don't think I deserve to be treated as they are by our laws. I would be ashamed of myself if I ignored her opinion and pretended nothing was wrong with it.

    You wrote, "That would be no different than me trying to force you to oppose same-sex marriage..." No, you are wrong. I'm not forcing her to anything. Not one thing in her life needs to change. This has nothing to do with: her marriage, her church, ANY church for that matter, or any aspect of her life. This has to do with one thing and one thing only: the legal status of my lifelong relationship.

    Yes of course she wants to avoid the issue. That way she can embrace her anti-gay prejudices but at the same time not have to take responsibility for them. I expected so much more from her. I thought she was better than that. I'd love to take your advice but I can't. I can't bring myself to be more than cordial to her. I feel like her niceness has been somewhat phony. What other anti-gay things has she been thinking or feeling all these years? It gives me the willies.

    I'm sure it would be more convenient for her if I just accept her opinion. Just like it would be more convenient for racial bigots if black people simply accepted that's how they feel about them instead of making a big deal out of it. That hardly makes it the right think to do.

  • Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    gguy, there is no doubt that some of my roman catholic relatives see me as a second class Christian because I am no longer roman catholic and I still love and respect them and enjoy their company, but guess what we don't discuss at the family picnics. My sense is that it shocked the fire out of you when she spoke against same-sex marriage because up to that point she appeared to have totally accepted your homosexuality and homosexual lifestyle. And to be honest it sounds like she is doing her best to put this disagreement behind you guys, but you won't let it go until you get her full approval for same-sex marriage. And chances are they may not happen nor do I feel it is appropriate for you to force her to that viewpoint. That would be no different than me trying to force you to oppose same-sex marriage and if I did you'd probably be pretty ticked at me. But it appears your aunt is doing her best to avoid the issue and not get ticked at you. Which shows me she truly does love and care about you and by no means sees you as second class in anyway. My personal opinion let it go, let time take it's course and if she changes her mind fine and if she doesn't just continue to enjoy the loving relationship you have had with her all along!!

  • Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:41 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, I understand what you're saying. And no, she is not in my face about it. But when we've talked about it I have laid out a half dozen clear, specific points articulating why I think gay civil marriage is the right thing to do. Most prominently, my civl marriage license would have nothing whatsoever to do with her church. Instead of refuting any of what I say with any kind of logic or reason, all she can do is say, "I'm sorry that's just how I feel."

    To you that might be good enough. For me, it isn't good enough when it's coming from someone who loves me.

    believer, do me a favor. Imagine that a loved one of yours told you they do not believe you are equal under the law. For whatever reason--the reason doesn't matter--they believe you can not have access to a part of the law's privelege and protection that they already enjoy. Are you telling me that you would be able to say, "I disagree, but since I like you a lot let's just not talk about it." If you could honestly do that, I would have to question what kind of self worth you have that would allow you to accept someone you love feeling that way about you.

    When it comes down to it, anyone in my family who can't support me in this is not someone I care to have in my life. I have plenty of people--relatives, siblings, coworkers, friends, etc.--all over the place who support my right to marry the person I love. I don't need people who can't see that.

  • Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    gguy, how is she treating you any differently than she treated you before other than her not approving of same-sex marriage and is she purposely getting on your case about it? My twin sister is totally liberal on many issues and in fact her minister a woman came out and shared she is a lesbian and in a relationship with another woman, my sister knows my wife and I disagree with this but we still can discuss how it is impacting their church and allow it to not interfere with our relationship. I don't get in her face and vice-versa, as I said we simply agree to disagree, but we can discuss issues associated with it. I guess what I'm saying for me this is not an issue worth falling on my sword over considering how my sister was there for me in many ways when we were younger. My sense from what you shared about your aunt is the same was true for you that she was there for you in the past. Now I do understand that this is a first person issue as opposed to third person, but I personally feel you should cut her some slack unless as I said earlier she is really getting in your face over it and/or she has changed her attitude toward you as a result!

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "And it's all because of her religion. They drove me halfway out of her life and made me lose much of my respect for her. I find that very sad. I hope she and her religion are happy."

    One nation, indivisible.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, I know you didn't mean any insensitivity toward me. I know you better than that, and I appreciate it.

    I guess this issue has me drawing my line in the sand.

    Since she first made the anti-marriage remarks I have tried everything from trying to let it go to appealing to her sense of fairness and common sense. Nothing. She has the right to stick to her guns but I also can't abide by being treated that way by people who supposedly love me.

    One of my siblings and I have the most polar opposite political views you can imagine. We get into some pretty heated debates sometimes. I mean we really get worked up. But in the end I can let it go. So can he. He's my brother and I love him, and I respect his views even when we disagree.

    But even he came around on the marriage thing. He said, "I don't claim to fully understand, but I know you guys and I know this doesn't have anything to do with my church so if it is important to you I support it."

    I love and adore my aunt, but if she is ok with the law treating her one way and me another (lesser) way, then she is not the woman I thought she was. And if I abide by it then I would be ashamed of myself for acceptingthat kind of treatment. In the end, I don't want to share my life with someone who feels that way.

    And it's all because of her religion. They drove me halfway out of her life and made me lose much of my respect for her. I find that very sad. I hope she and her religion are happy.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, to me there is a huge difference between agreeing to disagree and sweeping something under the rug!!

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, but didn't you say she knew you were a homosexual and it didn't become an issue until the issue of marriage was brought up? And didn't she also know you had someone special in your life, a significant other of the same gender?

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, I certainly did not mean to appear insensitive and in fact I was hoping you'd hear the opposite, it sounds like you and your aunt were close and even though she may not agree with same-sex marriage she very much accepted you for who you are. When I first became a Christian and left the roman catholic church I had an aunt who told me I would go to hell for that and I had other roman catholic friends and relatives who gave me the cold shoulder as well. Plus I had unsaved friends who did as well. But for the most part my relatives were a bit disappointed with my decision but they did not allow it to interfere with our relationship and many of my unsaved friends did the same, but at times they mess with me about being a Christian. So I can empathize with you to a point and I personally came to the point in my life where I saw my friendship with them to be more important than them accepting and approving of my Christian faith and practices. Shoot I know people who get upset with others because of the political party they are a part of or what college or pro teams they like and in some cases no longer speak to each other on account of that. I guess as much as I'd love to see all my friends not only accept my being a Christian but in fact I'd love to see all of them become one, I am willing to agree to disagree on that issue. And the reality is that even if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land those who are opposed to it now will more than likely still be opposed to it. But I don't see or look at you as second class and my sense is that neither does your aunt, she is simply opposed to same-sex marriage!!

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, I wanted to also add specifically that I do not believe the answer is sweeping it under the rug. If the ony reason I have not known the limit of her love is because it hasn't been tested, well that's no excuse. Otherwise we all need to wonder who will be there for us when we truly need someone.

    I hope that's not what christianity teaches - that never talking about it, and pretending things are fine whether they are or not, is the best way to handle it.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    MGT2 writes:

    "Goodness without God is simply an act of self preservation and has nothing to do with true beneficense and is therefore not truly good. "

    Baloney. Maybe for you, but I don't need religion to be good.

    You have no idea why I am good. You make up this crazy reason simply to support YOUR supernatural belief system. You're wrong.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer, I respect you a lot and I appreciate your input. But I don't think you understand my end of this or else you couldn't say something as insensitive as 'maybe I'm throwing her under the bus.'

    If she were just a coworker or an acquaintence I could agree to disagree, much as I can with you. But she is my family. When it comes to my close loved ones, for the sake of my dignity they have a choice: me or the part of their faith that tells them I am bad or wrong or less than they are. I have 40+ years of life with her. She knows what kind of person I am. She KNOWS me. She has to know in her heart there is no reason to treat me differently under the law.

    But some stuff that was told to her by some men on Sundays has made her believe something bad about me, somthing contrary to what she sees with her own eyes. Contrary to common sesne. Contrary to logic. If I accept her view of me, I will feel like a slave who kisses the rear end of his master or a wife who stays with a husband who beats her. I would be ashamed of myself. If I give my consent to being treated that way by people in my close inner circle, I accept their illogical, twisted view that I am somehow bad or deserving of 2nd class. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did that.

    This is not my 'desire.' It is simply WHO I AM. If I could just 'shut off' being gay I would. But I can't. I can either behonest about it or lie about it. I choose to be honest.

    Now I feel like she has been a phony with me. She is nice when it doesn't count, but when push comes to shove and I need her she will not be there.

    I don't know about you, but I don't surround myself with people who treat me that way.

    I've been trying to find a way to salvage this relationship. It's not looking good. And all because of her religion. It's a pity.

  • MGT2 »
    Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Goodness without God is simply an act of self preservation and has nothing to do with true beneficense and is therefore not truly good.

    God teaches goodness for its own sake without the need of merit in its object. Out basic controling naturalistic instincts drive us to act for our own benefit even in acts of philontrophy. Charitable giving is largely because we will not affect our own lifestyles because we give out of our excesses; plus the added benefit of making ourselves feel better , and superior.

    Even the laws of society are obeyed because we fear the harm that may befall us otherwise.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:58 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    gguy, it's sounds like perhaps you have thrown your aunt under the bus as opposed to her throwing you under the bus. You said she remained quiet and I think she was doing her best to lovingly disagree with your desire without offending you, but it appears you may have forced her hand. Why not agree to disagree with her on the issue of same-sex marriage. I can't say why she is opposed to same-sex marriage, but I am sure the furthest thing from her mind is to purposely deny you of your civil rights, but once again all this could be remedied with stronger domestic partnership laws and something tells me your aunt would have no problem with that. If I'm speaking out of turn I apologize because I do enjoy our very civil discussions, but I really believe you've got a wonderful relationship with your aunt and I think this difference can be easily reconciled without harming the relationship. I know this is a very sensitive issue for you and rightfully so, but I also know this relationship with your aunt is as well and I believe there is a way in which you don't have to lose either one of these battles!!

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rachel, you are a dream. If all christians were like you the world would be a much better place. You are what I thought religion was supposed to be all about.

    You are correct, I have been wronged plenty by christians in my life. But I learned a long time ago not to be concerned with what others think. I only answer to the high standards I set for myself, and to the needs and expectations of my loved ones.

    My lingering sadness comes, though, when I see faith do actual damage. The tragedy of that is hard to witness.

    One of my aunts is a great example. She and I have always been close. I adore her. She's witty and sassy, a great and loving mom, just a terrific lady. We get along so well. In some way we have a special bond. We have so much to give each other, so much to share.

    She knows I'm gay. I never knew it to be an issue. Now when our discussion turns to the subject of me wanting to get married she gets quiet. I inquire only to find out she doesn't support it. She says if I want the same legal protections for my family that she has for hers, I can hire a lawyer.

    What can turn a good, loving person into someone who believes her own nephew should be treated as less of a person under the law? Sadly, it's her religion.

    Relationship ruined. All because of christianity. I can not, in good conscience, keep people close to me who would throw me under the bus like that. She treats me like gold...up until my gayness clashes with what her church tells her. She knows darn well how good a person I am, how much she and I enrich each others lives, yet her faith has led her to put a limit on our relationship. It has led her to placing arbitrary rules above her common sense and her own family.

    Now I don't talk to her much. My respect for her is so much lower. It breaks my heart to know what kind of relationship we could have--in fact used to have--and then see what has become of it. All because of religion.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:23 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    rachel, excellent counsel to not only gguy, but to all who struggle with the issue of same-sex attractions!! Be blessed as you continue to serve Him!

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:16 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    One more thing Garageguy, I see you are hurting too, and been hurt, and although I can't apologize for anybody else, I am sorry for the way Christians have treated you.

    Yes you are gay, and we (Christians) believe that the Word of God doesn’t agree with that lifestyle, but you are also a human, someones son, brother, cousin, friend, lover, etc....you are just as real as we are and have all the same feelings we have. To dismiss your feelings are wrong. Its like people get so religious that they push certain people off into a corner somewhere and treat them like they don’t exist, or like they have a disease, and they get so caught up in their own hate that they don’t even remember that we are human anymore…that we hurt, laugh and cry just like the rest of them…of course I can’t speak for you but that’s how I was made to feel.

    My point is, if we look to other man for approval we will never find it. We need to find the true relationship with God, not the going to church on Sunday and dressing in your best clothes to show off to so and so, and shouting some amens to show everyone how religious you are even though you never read your Bible, and calling yourself a Christian while hating your own family kind of Christian (I got a lot more but I think you got my point), it’s really getting to know God for yourself, reading his word and praying, that’s the only way to have a true relationship with Him. Man will only let us down, there is no-one perfect but God. When we really let it all go, and ask Him into our hearts, He begins to transform us, into better people, He breaks down our walls and barriers and helps us to feel compassion for other people, to want to help others, not hurt them or judge them, and to want to go and share the love and joy of knowing Jesus, those are the real Christians…if someone tells you they are a Christian but you see no love in them, well there is just something wrong with that, because God Is Love!

    I pray that the Lord sends some real Christians into your life, so you can see that there are some good ones out there, I have been blessed to meet some in my life, and they have changed my life. I should also add that you don’t have to be a Christian to be a good person either. There are a lot of people out there doing a lot of good things that are not Christians….…But it won’t get them into Heaven :D

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:12 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    Hi Garageguy! Thanks for the compliment, although I am far from perfect, I do try to respect everybody because no-one is better than anyone else in this world.

    I also understand your view on some Christians, before I became a Christian I used to feel the same way when I would get looked down on and judged by them, but I have come to realise that it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks about me, it only matters what God thinks.
    Its sad for me to see people that have been so abused by Christians or Religion that they have so much hate in their hearts, and 99% of the time that is the reason that they have no interest in knowing God. That is why I try to be civil and respectful to everybody, because maybe I am the only Christian that someone may come across, and for me to look down or judge someone (the same way it was done to me) will not win any souls for Christ.
    Bobyyyy seems very sad, and angry, and I offered him a hug before too but he told me to 'shove it', which is ok, we know he is hurting and we will pray for him....

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