Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Opinion|Wed, Oct. 21 2009 12:32 PM EDT

The Battle is Over? - Bishop Spong Exits the Debate

By R. Albert Mohler, Jr.|Christian Post Guest Columnist

"The battle is over. The victory has been won. There is no reasonable doubt as to what the final outcome of the struggle will be." Those are the words of John Shelby Spong, the retired Episcopal bishop of Newark, New Jersey. In his recently released "manifesto," Bishop Spong declares, "it is time to move on," and pledges never again to debate the issues of homosexuality or homosexual rights.

John Shelby Spong's new manifesto is a sign of the times. For the past three decades, Bishop Spong has staked out a theological position that is so far outside the realm of Christian orthodoxy that it defies description. In a succession of notorious publications, Spong has denied virtually every conceivable doctrine and has embraced almost every imaginable heresy. His abandonment of biblical Christianity is both intentional and straightforward - what this bishop demands is nothing less than the total reformulation of the Christian faith. In other words, Bishop Spong would replace Christianity with a new post-Christian religion while continuing to be recognized as a bishop of the Episcopal Church.

An ardent proponent of gay rights and the total normalization of homosexuality, Bishop Spong has long pressed for same-sex unions and the ordination of practicing homosexuals to every office in his church. In his new manifesto, he simply declares victory for his cause. Though skirmishes in many churches and denominations continue, the bishop is convinced that the final outcome of the struggle is clear: "Homosexual people will be accepted as equal, full human beings, who have a legitimate claim on every right that both church and society has to offer any of us. Homosexual marriages will become legal, recognized by the state and pronounced holy by the church."

In an act of individual self-assertion, Spong simply declares that he no longer needs "a majority vote of some ecclesiastical body" in order to bless or ordain gay and lesbian people throughout the life of the church. "The battle in both our culture and our church to rid our souls of this dying prejudice is finished," he asserts. "A new consciousness has arisen. A decision quite clearly has been made. Inequality for gay and lesbian people is no longer a debatable issue in either church or state."

In the most interesting section of his manifesto, Bishop Spong announces that he will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality with anyone. "I have been part of this debate for years, but things do get settled and this issue is now settled for me," Spong explains. "I do not debate any longer with members of the 'Flat Earth Society' either."

Indeed, Spong has been a participant in debates over homosexuality for the last quarter century. Now, he simply announces that he will no longer debate the issue because he is no longer even willing to admit that there are two sides to the debate. I suppose I should not have been surprised to find my name listed among those he will never again debate.

Though Bishop Spong appears to mean that he will not engage in debate concerning homosexuality on any conceivable grounds, he is particularly clear that he will not debate the question of whether homosexuality is a sin. Those who claim that homosexuality is sinful or deviant are, Spong insists, simply "unlearned." He writes: "I will no longer engage the biblical ignorance that emanates from so many right-wing Christians about how the Bible condemns homosexuality, as if that point of view still has any credibility." Continue »

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  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, there you go again changing the rules of your own silly challenge, rules by the way that you made up!!!

  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    GraceMan »
    Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag

    Alockslee,

    In response to your claim that Jesus never existed here are some quotes from the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on Jesus:

    98 "The denial of Jesus' historicity has never convinced any large number of people, in or out of technical circles, nor did it in the first part of the century." Walter P. Weaver, The Historical Jesus in the Twentieth Century, 1900-1950, (Continuum International, 1999), page 71.

    100 "There is almost Universal agreement that Jesus lived." Bernard L. Ramm, An Evangelical Christology: Ecumenic and Historic, (Regent College Publishing, 1993), page 19.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Here is what reality says jesus has no contemporary secular verifiable valid evidence to say he did,REALITY WINS!!!!!!
    When you take the challenge I posted and prove under the rules of that challenge then and only then can you make that claim.
    TFR

  • Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alockslee,

    In response to your claim that Jesus never existed here are some quotes from the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on Jesus:

    98 "The denial of Jesus' historicity has never convinced any large number of people, in or out of technical circles, nor did it in the first part of the century." Walter P. Weaver, The Historical Jesus in the Twentieth Century, 1900-1950, (Continuum International, 1999), page 71.

    100 "There is almost Universal agreement that Jesus lived." Bernard L. Ramm, An Evangelical Christology: Ecumenic and Historic, (Regent College Publishing, 1993), page 19.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The Western World has been blessed by a Greek like philosophical and intellect approach to debate on issues high up in our Greek Pantheon. However, certain foundations are a taken and should never be subject to debate such as basic rights and freedoms, in this case the very existence, self respect, and dignity of GLBT people. The call to debate by the Christian Right is like a Robber coming into your home, insist on their right to your property because God told him so, and then graciously permits a dialogue for you to justify to him why it should not be so. A debate under such context is no debate but robbery and an insult to humanity and decent human behavior. When we recognized this and learn to say “no” to their Christian right agenda hidden under the cloak of religion, then it is the start of victory. A manifesto pasted on the church doors would be useless because they will not change, and will continue in their sins, for it has to be pasted on the foreheads of GLBT people so engraved in their minds as to not let this deception by the Christian Right go on any longer.

    The manifesto is not about disengaging in debate and dialogue, but is a change of mindset, a loud declaration of "No", to the lack of morality, integrity, and humanity, of the Christian Right in a debate which should never have occurred in the first place. It is a manifesto to be inserted to the large open mouths of the Fundamentalist Christian movement so that we would no longer need to listen to their mindless rhetoric, and empowering the GLBT population not to ever accept their false rhetoric anymore but to claim what is rightfully ours, the basic rights, dignity and morality denied. It is a cry of defiance that we shall take our basic rights for granted no more, and the time is come to claim our basic rights and humanity from those who tried to take it away without standing down. We shall not take “no” anymore for an answer. We have waited too long, have been too gracious waiting for the unrepentant Christians to see the light when we should have long ago stood up, stand proud, and said enough is enough. We will not tolerate, nor accept being a second class citizen, but demand that the Christian Right be duly taken into account of all the harm caused.

    http://www.psa91.com

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:31 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    believer »
    Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag

    Is anyone else having problems getting past page 1 of the personal posts so we can go back to other sites that are not included on most viewed and most commented? Or if you've figured out how to get to them let me know. Presently I really don't like this new system.
    -------------------------------------------
    In Response: Not only that you can't write a post and send it before this site resets itself causing you to lose what you wrote. The old posting was just fine, this new one is terrible. I tried to find a post you wrote and it's gone.

    TFR

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:11 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    :-\ Nye? I hadn't heard of this before ... "your judgment draws a flock of pheasants?" I'm not sure that really makes sense.

    Did you mean "Bill Nye the science guy"? Your judgment draweth Nye?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye

    Or did you mean "nyet," Russian for no?

    Your judgment draweth "nyet." Not popular with the Commissar! >:-(

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    A note to the church of the False Bishop Spong and to the false Bishop Spong

    "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN," Daniel 5:25-29

    Your judgment draweth nye.

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    rhi, I look forward to hearing your answer, not sure what the question was, but looking forward to your answer none the less!!

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:34 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Beleiver, looks like they got the "page 2" thing fixed

    Thanks to you guys / gals in IT !

    Now, could you consider putting the "by-poster" posts in reverse chronological order *without* sorting them by article? That is, the way they used to be ... thanks for helping us out so quickly!

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    The absence of Bishop Spong from the debate is a most pleasant subtraction. HIs ill-founded, anti-biblical, heretical contributions were not reasoned well, supported, or proved, and to be spared from his shrill, uninformed opinions will be a pleasure.

    Is he leaving the debate because he really thinks he won or because he knows he lost?

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:49 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    believer, I had a real answer for your question and it just went bye bye. I'll try again when I have time. I don't like losing so much and having to rewrtie.

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, glad to know I'm not the only one struggling with this new system and I agree with you on doing the posts chronologically by posts as opposed to by article!!

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, yes I've had the same problem. I'm pretty sure it was working at first after the transition but then stopped working. Maybe they can fix it.

    Another change I would prefer in the "by-poster" list would be to put the posts in (reverse)chronological order rather than sorting them by article. (In other words, change that back to the way it was.)

    One improvement in the new system is that you can click to view flagged posts under the "by-poster" list. In the old system you could not click them under "by-poster" - you had to go to the article, and if there were many pages of comments it could be hard to find the one you were looking for.

    I suspect they will get the kinks worked out. How about writing to let them know?

    Everybody have a great evening! :-)

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:17 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Hugs to you too Blacksho! :D

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    hman: You are a false teacher and an antichrist. You will receive punishment according to your actions

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Is anyone else having problems getting past page 1 of the personal posts so we can go back to other sites that are not included on most viewed and most commented? Or if you've figured out how to get to them let me know. Presently I really don't like this new system.

  • Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:41 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 8

    Alockslee,

    First, I would like to point out that the author of this list of 194 contradictions lacks intellectual honesty because most individuals who read these references in their context will see that many are not contradictions at all. I have not an opportunity to go thought each reference that is cited to determine which of them actually appear to be contradictions. And for the ones that do appear to be contradictions I expect that study and research will solve each one. And next time you want to bring up contradictions I hope you will have a better source than this one.

    Now while contradictions may seem to be a big deal to you they are not such a problem to believers like myself . One contradiction does not invalidate the whole Bible. For nearly 2000 years believers have found God's word to be reliable and a source of encouragement, hope, wisdom and strength. Faith in Christ and the Bible were here long before you came along and they will still be here after you are gone. Here is a contradiction for you to consider. Go to web sites like www.compassdirect.org or www.persecution.org and read about Christians in different parts of the world who are currently being persecuted for their faith in Christ; who suffer beatings, imprisonment and death. If Christianity was just a man made religion why wouldn't they just give it up? Because it is real. And they like many others are willing to die for their faith. And since you ask for proof of God in this world, I can point out three things that show God's involvement in history: the people of Israel, the church and the Bible because these endure in spite of attempts by men to wipe them out.

    It seems that the only faith that you could accept is one that will answer all your questions; one that appeals to your intellect and if has any elements that do not make sense to you then that disqualifies it. But our God's not looking for individuals like yourself for followers; he is looking for those who will put their trust in him simply based on his word that has been cherished and handled down over the centuries.

    But are you sure that you should be coming here to put down our faith. Now you have gotten our attention. God's know who you are and we are able to touch you life with our prayers. I will be praying for you. You can count on it!

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    al, with all due respect the only thing you've done is discount all the sources we have cited because they come from a Christian source! You play by your rules and we'll play by our rules, you choose what you want to believe and we'll choose what we want to believe in these matters. Because it appears you are not willing to change your mind in these matters and you have certainly not given us anything that has or will cause us to change our minds in these matters!!

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:30 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 2

    believer »
    Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:38 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag

    al, we have given you numerous sources that include secular and non-Christian sources and you simply choose to ignore them or discount them at best!!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: I will say this once more. Please follow the rules of the challenge. I have answered every example you and others have given and shown them to be wrong. I have provided citations to back me up. You have provided nothing to refute my comments,nor the sources I gave. It is you, sir that continues to ignore the facts and until you do no further response are required of me.

    When you get around to posting something new instead of just "no it isn't " replies I will continue with this challenge, until then, you still lose, Jesus never existed and your NT is nothing more than fiction.
    TFR

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    al, we have given you numerous sources that include secular and non-Christian sources and you simply choose to ignore them or discount them at best!!

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    al, no there not they're simply your opinion based on the opinion of other non-believers or believers who are trying to discount or deny the inerrancy of the Word of God. The reality is you are free to reject God and God's Word but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a God and God's Word is indeed inerrant!

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:26 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    believer »
    Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3 Flag

    al, in your opinion they are fiction but when it comes to God's truth versus your opinion, your opinion doesn't really matter!!
    ________________________________________________________
    In Response: believer, you keep forgetting that my statements are fact, not opinion. Your beliefs are based upon fiction, unless of course you as a follower can prove the existence of your god. Can you do that, with real evidence, apparently not since you just continue with this same line of rhetoric. Let me know when you come up with something fact based, not novels by fellow believers who can't prove their god existed either and choose to ignore reality.

    In other words give me something that proves Jesus was a real person and do that with real evidence not some fiction that created him, like a record from the Romans or maybe another person who made a speech living at the same time he allegedly did and not a vision or some other nonsense. something tangible I can see is not biased that proves it. I gave the names and you just ignoring that history doesn't support your belief.

    TFR

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 8

    al, but I am coming to believe you are indeed with regards to the issue of the existence of God and Jesus Christ and the inerrancy of the Word of God, you are becoming the fulfillment of Romans 1:22 in these matters.

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    al, here's several books for you to read with regards to the supposed contradictions found in not only the New Testament but the whole Word of God; "The Hard Sayings Of The Bible" by Kaiser, Davids, Bruce, and Brauch, "When Critics Ask" by Geisler and Howe, "When Skeptics Ask" by Geisler and Brooks, and "When Cultisits Ask" by Geisler and Rhodes. I'm sure that these books will greatly assist you in seeing that the supposed contradictions noted in the book you referred us to are just that, supposed.

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 7

    al, in your opinion they are fiction but when it comes to God's truth versus your opinion, your opinion doesn't really matter!!

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:52 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    #
    believer »
    Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:50 am : 0 : 3 Flag

    al, as for what I provided you, I provided you what I felt led to provide you and if that doesn't satisfy you that's your problem and as others and myself have told you before, no one died and left you boss. You don't get to make the rules or dictate the rules with how other posters are to respond to you if they even choose to respond to you at all.
    #
    believer »
    Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:46 am : 0 : 3 Flag

    al, considering I've shared at least once with you several of the sites you've walked away from I don't see any need to share those with you again since chances are you'll simply ignore my response again.
    ---------------------------------------------
    In Response: Here I will cover two in one.

    I addressed what you offered and responded, your sites and sources are fiction upon fiction. Once again in order to hold a belief in something it has to exist, not a fairy tale, factually exist.

    When you prove to me that it exists then you will substantiated it for yourself, until then you know you doubt and that will gnaw at you till you do, if it didn't you wouldn't have posted once on the subject. You haven't done it, nor will be able to, but thanks just the same for continuing to prove my point with every post and every failure.

    TFR

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:47 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    GraceMan »Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:33 am Hey Alockslee,

    Thanks for the reference to the 194 Contradictions of the New Testament. Most of these contradictions go away when one reads them in context! I think I will develop a web page to address each of these.
    ------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Most? Most of them go away? Why not all of them, surely someone as astute as you can just pray the contradictions away, can't you?

    Only goes to show you that most of the time most of the followers don't quite get the whole problem.

    Most of them go away!, LOL
    TFR

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    The battle is just starting - exiting the dialog is like exiting the peace talks because there is no point talking when one side is not interested and demand the destruction of the other party. It's a battle cry rather than a back down....

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:33 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 6

    Hey Alockslee,

    Thanks for the reference to the 194 Contradictions of the New Testament. Most of these contradictions go away when one reads them in context! I think I will develop a web page to address each of these.

    You can choose to believe what you wish but for those of us who follow Christ we have found the promises in the Bible to be true and reliable. We follow a living God who honors his word.

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

    al, my basis for my spiritual beliefs rests in one source alone, God Almighty Himself, the I AM of the Word of God. God does not need to rely on the secular world to prove His existence since He Himself has authority over all His creation to include the secular world. And once again who are you to dictate what I need to have to justify my spiritual beliefs, I don't naswer to you for anything, but I am accountable to God for everything.

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    al, as for what I provided you, I provided you what I felt led to provide you and if that doesn't satisfy you that's your problem and as others and myself have told you before, no one died and left you boss. You don't get to make the rules or dictate the rules with how other posters are to respond to you if they even choose to respond to you at all.

  • Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:46 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    al, considering I've shared at least once with you several of the sites you've walked away from I don't see any need to share those with you again since chances are you'll simply ignore my response again.

  • Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 1

    believer »Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:59 am al, I have responded to every challenge you have given me,
    ----------------------------------------------
    In Response: Give these examples you claim. From approximately July 22, 2009 through Aug 8, 2009, I was prevented from logging on this board. So tell me how was I supposed to answer anything during that time?

    When I was again able to post, I found all of my posts were deleted and I wasn't able to find where I have posted, so gradually I have answered them in turn as they were found.

    Now again I have asked time and time again for any valid questions that I haven't yet responded to to be pointed out to me and all those I know of have been answered, so what do you contend I have run from? I cover several topics during the day and check the threads repeatedly and with the amount of what I write here how can you say I don't respond? People complain I write too much in response, so how is that running away? It can't be both.

    How long do I have to wait until I can move onto a topic? Threads here are stalled from months ago with my post the last one there, so what is left for me to answer if my post is the last one? I am expected to follow the current discussion and simultaneously write posts on several threads at once? Get real! You can't keep up with me in speed, let alone word count!
    I am tired of posting asking and not being answered all the while I am expected to forget those and answer you? Well I am taking a different approach, I responded to everything I found or be made aware of and now I am waiting till you answer me first and then you can expect replies once I have received what I asked for first and waited on.

    And no you didn't provide what I asked for, so stop running and hiding from me.

    Yes you do have to prove your reliance on a deity that has been shown through secular sources to be non-existent, until you do you don't have a basis for a religion. You also have to do it according to the same methods employed, non biased historical sources,you can't use the early figures their speeches don't support you position although many of your religious modern day heroes still falsify the facts. Read the speeches themselves and you will see the figures don't say what you think they do, if you do then you misunderstood what was said by them. You certainly can't use NT cause the underlying premise hasn't been proved by you to exist and you must first establish him or the rest is automatically invalidated. Without proving Jesus existed the whole NT is a fiction.

    TFR

  • Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 9

    al, I have responded to every challenge you have given me, so unlike you I don't run and hide!!

  • Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 8

    al, I don't have to prove that God exist's I'll just leave God to do that for Himself and which He does each and every day and most importantly through the work of His Son, Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. But the reality is for you that a day is coming when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord! Hopefully, many more will come to that reality on this side of eternity, because it will be too late on the other.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:09 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 2

    believer »
    Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:38 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

    troyg, the only problem is that many in the UCC totally ignore the one true God and specifically God's Word in order to supposedly find God's meaning and their calling.
    -------------------------------------------------
    In Response: believer you haven't proven that your god even existed. It has been refuted and until you can prove Jesus existed by establishing through proper procedure as required in the essay you don't have a basis for arguing anything about a god, let alone you constantly say is the one true anything.

    You must prove the primary individual that your religion predicated upon, you have no foundation to begin with or start from, so please do so.

    You have told me me that I run off and leave discussions hanging unanswered, but you are doing that exact thing by not addressing the question that you jumped in on and then bailed out. So stop avoiding the issue and prove your god even existed, which you haven't and can't.

    TFR

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:19 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

    "there is a huge difference between the Word of God literally being the Word of God and saying that we are to take everything in the Bible literally and you know that!!"

    Of course I know that.

    What I did not know until now is that you know that too. :-)

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    hman, there is a huge difference between the Word of God literally being the Word of God and saying that we are to take everything in the Bible literally and you know that!!

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 9

    troyg, the only problem is that many in the UCC totally ignore the one true God and specifically God's Word in order to supposedly find God's meaning and their calling.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 9

    hman, as a professor in college so wisely shared, the Word of God means what it says and says what it means, but the Word of God does not always say what it means or mean what it says. And the so-called contradictions you bring up only occur when you take the passage you are citing totally out of context. And as of yet you have never shown one legitimate contradiction in the Word of God!!

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 0

    Time for a Leonard Cohen song and for me to be quiet! :D

    If it be your will
    That I speak no more
    And my voice be still
    As it was before
    I will speak no more
    I shall abide until
    I am spoken for
    If it be your will

    If it be your will
    That a voice be true
    From this broken hill
    I will sing to you
    From this broken hill
    All your praises they shall ring
    If it be your will
    To let me sing

    If it be your will
    If there is a choice
    Let the rivers fill
    Let the hills rejoice
    Let your mercy spill
    On all these burning hearts in hell

    If it be your will
    To make us well
    And draw us near
    And bind us tight
    All your children here
    In their rags of light
    In our rags of light
    All dressed to kill
    And end this night
    If it be your will

    If it be your will.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 0

    Honesty, patience, moderation, diligence ...

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 1

    Yes, I have to agree with Troyg. I do *not* think that unity is to be valued above all other virtues.

    In my opinion, compassion, common sense, justice and humility are more important than unity.

    There are probably some more too. :-)

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:35 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 2

    Cheisa » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:07 pm "I present Bishop Spong as the perfect example of why a church needs a central authority and a hierarchy. In the Catholic Church, this Bishop would have been recalled to Rome and stripped of his diocese, if not excommunicated for his repeated affronts to God's Word and Church doctrine."

    Well...I present Bishop Spong as the perfect example of why central authority and hierarchies destroy God's message to each of our individual lives. My church, the United Church of Christ, as well as the Episcopal church respect the fact that each soul, each Christian, is here on their own search for God's meaning and calling for their lives. Some "anointed" human pope or supreme bishop or 700 Club kingpin do nothing but establish dogma that is relevant or irrelevant to what is really going on in people's lives. God wants us all the question and discern for ourselves - not just take whatever the (insert religious authority here) wants them to believe. Jesus made this clear in addressing the Pharisees’ of his time; we must make this clear to the Pharisees’ of our time.

    The United Church of Christ and the American Episcopal church are very very healthy churches. Sorry to disappoint you.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:21 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 2

    "the reality is that there are no contradictions in the Word of God!!"

    Believer, we have gone over several examples of contradictions in the Bible.

    You always end up saying "it doesn't mean what it says."

    If you believe that the Bible doesn't mean what it says, then you do not believe it is literally true.

    That gets us back to the original question: is the Bible literally true?

    You are saying no, it is not. Maybe symbolically or allegorically true, and maybe *some* passages are literally true.

    But you are saying it is not cover-to-cover literally word-for-word true.

    That seems very reasonable. That is what the Baptists were teaching 40 to 60 years ago.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 9

    I present Bishop Spong as the perfect example of why a church needs a central authority and a hierarchy. In the Catholic Church, this Bishop would have been recalled to Rome and stripped of his diocese, if not excommunicated for his repeated affronts to God's Word and Church doctrine.

    It's unfathomable why this church puts up with this kind of heresy from ot's own clergy. No wonder the church is a divided, heretical mess.

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 9

    al, the reality is that there are no contradictions in the Word of God!! But feel free to share some of the so-called contradictions if you wish!!

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:57 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 3

    believer »
    Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:32 pm : 3 : 6 Flag

    al, God's Word was penned by writers who were superintended by God's Holy Spirit. God used men to write out exactly what He wanted them to write. He kept them free from error but at the same time used their unique personalities and styles to convey exactly what He wanted. II Peter 1:20-21, "But know this first of all, that np prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
    --------------------------------
    In Response: Really? If he kept them free from error then what does the bible have so many contradictions in it?

    If it is so perfect as you contend then explain the different versions today and why so many problems you have explaining it when asked.

    http://skeptically.org/bible/id6.html

    Work your way through those and it's OK to take a few posts to do it, so the excuse to burdensome doesn't save you from doing it.

    TFR

  • Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:19 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 8

    al, responded to your foolish challenge, but really don't need to refute it since God's inerrant Word did that years ago!!

  • GMG »
    Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:47 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 11

    caritaspromundi

    >>> It is sad to see America lose forever its position as being the torch bearer for liberty , equality , and justice. And it is all attributable to the actions and rhetoric of conservative Christians. Most telling is this rent revelation : Considering Oklahoma to be the figurative 'buckle' of the 'Bible belt' in America ; a recent US history quiz was given to Oklahoma high school students. It is the same one , apparently given to hopeful immigrants. A full 73% of students could not name the first president of the USA. No wonder it has been so easy for the religious right to falsify and revise American history<<<

    That's a rather broad, sweeping statement don't you think? Because Oklahoma students can't name the first president, the US is going downhill fast due to conservative christians.

    Would you call Arizona part of the Bible Belt also? Because they have the same problem.

    http://www.publicschoolinsights.org/twenty-six-percent

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