Emerging Church Debate Battled in Posters

Online4Him

Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:48 pm : 1 : 0 Flag

Tolerance for one another's beliefs - yes/ of coarse. Compromise biblical truth - no thank you!

RBB

Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:38 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

Didymus:

Actually what I was hoping for was that if you read the Bible more completely and carefully you might not use it in such a careless way. Let's face it, using scripture you can prove that slavery is right, or the world is flat, but that doesn't make it correct. What I was expecting was that you were just uneducated in the scripture. It hadn't occurred to me that you simply chose to ignore what it said in favor of shall we say a looser meaning. The fact that you claim to be in a church leadership role makes this even more disappointing. The things we are discussing here are simple Biblical truths not anything complicated.

I'm not talking about the 5 points of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, the perpetual virginity of Mary, or the debate on real presence in the Eucharist, serious Biblical questions that take some real Biblical knowledge and discussion. All we're talking about here is simple Biblical truth. If you read the Bible you find that God not man is the center of the universe. You find that God is Holy and to be revered, loved and feared. You find out that God doesn't take lightly those that take Him lightly. That is simple, plain Biblical truth, and ones that the church seems to be abandoning with the help of pastors that are leading their flocks astray, if leading them at all. While there are many points in the Bible for discussion, that aren't plain to anyone reading it, these matters are not them.

I'm very glad for you that you realized that you and the church you belonged to were acting like Pharisees. I've had a similar experience with the church I grew up in. They believed they were the only one's with the truth of the Bible and everyone else was damned. Aren't we both blessed to have come out of that situation. On the other hand it is not Pharisaical to be zealous not to want to see God mocked by the manmade sideshow that so many churches have become.

didymus

Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:14 am : 0 : 0 Flag

RBB: (part 1 of 2)

I disagree with several remarks you made concerning my post to you, but not to be nitpicky, I’ll just comment on something not said.

You write, “I suggest again reading and serious study of the Bible”, but what is left unsaid, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is the assumption that by reading more and doing more serious studying of the Bible I will eventually come to see things the way you do. That I will interpret the Bible the way you do and will come to see that God is not one who will take the ‘casual worship or attitude’ of the emergent church kindly.

If you don’t mind I will relate my thoughts with a couple of stories.

When I was a younger Christian, I would read passages such as Matthew 23 (sticking with the Pharisee theme I’ve used in previous posts), I would think to myself, “that describes so well many of the other churches out there, I’m glad I found a righteous church that doesn’t do those things.” I thought of others in other churches that if they would just read their bibles more, and get their noses out of man made traditions, that they would see themselves in the list of woes in Matthew 23 and repent. But as I grew up, and saw and experienced more, as I went to help plant a church in Cyprus, and took on various leadership positions, I gradually came to see that Matthew 23 was much less about ‘other churches’, but was more about me and my church. We imitated the Pharisees much more often than we did Christ. And it was a tough thing to overcome, because the problem with Phariseeism is that the Pharisee can’t see it, even when his nose is stuck in it.

I’ve come now to realize that there are more Pharisees hanging out in, and often dominating, our churches than we would like to admit to.

So… at one time I thought, ‘if they would just read the Bible more, and read it more seriously, they would see it, they would see what I am seeing.’ Now, I do so no longer, now I know that serious students of the Bible can come up with very different views on the same passage of scripture, and that my point of view has often been wrong.

didymus

Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:13 am : 0 : 0 Flag

RBB: (part 2 of 2)

Another story:

I used to have a pastor who graduated from Liberty University and he and I would occasionally have a conversation about Rev. Jerry Falwell. He liked Falwell, and I thought Falwell was crazy. My pastor was a confessing fundamentalist, and I’m an ACLU supporter. But my views on Falwell have more recently changed when I heard about his friendship with Larry Flynt (mentioned in a good article in the July, 2007 addition of Christianity Today). Larry Flynt, the pornographer, said this, “I hated everything he stood for, but after meeting him in person, years after the trial, Jerry Falwell and I became good friends… He cared about people. And I don't think that Falwell was mean-spirited at all.”

Although there is much that I disagreed with Falwell on, I don’t want to demonize him, and I imagine there is a thing or two I can even learn from him.

I can empathize more with a comment made by theologian Walter Brueggemann in an article in The Capital Times,

“When a member of the audience asked Brueggemann how he knew his understanding of Christianity was right and that of Jerry Falwell and the leaders of the religious right is wrong, he said there was no such certainty.

‘There is no answer in the back of the book that says our vision is right and Falwell's is not,’ he said referring to the Bible. ‘We need to keep working it out, with the norms being what brings justice and faith and righteousness. That is the test for all of us.’”

RBB

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:18 am : 0 : 0 Flag

Didymus:

You suggest a dichotomy between a Holy God and His having mercy that doesn't exist. Scripture makes it plain that it's possible to have both. I'm just suggesting that those who have left out the former might do well to study the whole Bible not just the parts that please them.

As to the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14, it isn't that he's serious or that he's worshipping in an "appropriate" way that makes the Lord speak against him. It's that he's not recognizing that he's a sinner, not repenting and turning from his sin, not recognizing the very Holiness of God I was speaking of.

I've never been to a church that didn't allow children, although I did read just last week of an emergent pastor who had banned children from his services, and had written a very sarcastic post to the parents who complained on his blog. Here's a thought, perhaps the Lord was speaking of a child's trust, and tendency to believe without questioning. That would make much more sense than the same God who has laid out reverent worship in the rest of the Bible advocating irreverence during the service.

As to Jesus being a "glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners’’ If you would read the whole passage you would find that He wasn't claiming to be those things, it was an insult being flung at him. Yes, he did have contact with those who were doing those things. He was preaching to them. Trying to bring them out of that way of life, getting them to repent and follow Him, not patting them on the back, telling them He loved them just the way they were, and to keep doing it.

I suggest again reading and serious study of the Bible.

cmrk3

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:09 am : 0 : 0 Flag

I did look at the posters, and though both sets of poster raise some good points, I like the emergent ones better.

didymus

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:37 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

RBB: “If you doubt it please read the Bible more.” I have taken your advice and have gone to the Word, and WOW, you are right, it has some things to say!

The same God who struck down Uzzah in 2 Samuel 6:7, and wasted people for violating the Sabbath, also said, “If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent” (Matthew 12:1-13).

The same Bible that has Hebrews 10:31, also has some choice words concerning just who should be concerned about falling into the hands of the Living God. One passage that caught my eye was Luke 18:9-14. Look closely, here is a serious man, doing some serious worshipping, to a serious God, and he has some serious problems, because that sinful tax collector, who may have never even gone to church in his entire life, yet alone spent time worshipping God in any ‘appropriate’ way, is walking home justified, and the serious dude is not.

Now check out the very next passage - Luke 18:15-17. Babies, who often aren’t even allowed into many churches regular services because they disrupt the pastor’s sermon, Jesus says, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” Like a little child! Like my daughter, who likes to play, laugh, spit and sleep all day long, a model of irreverence. Unless I receive the kingdom like her, I will never enter it.

God accepted the worship of some distant tax collector, but not the serious religious man, he accepted the worship of little children and required all the ‘serious’ adults to imitate them.

So what some think of as a ‘too casual’ and ‘flippant’ way of worshipping God, God may have a very different opinion of.

Of Jesus it was said, ‘here was a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and ‘sinners’’ (Matthew 11:19). If he had that kind of a reputation and hung out with those kinds of people, I don’t think he will have any problem with clowns, cowboys, pastor’s who can’t sing "I've Got Friends In Low Places", but try anyway, and even a church full of Elvis impersonators.

cmrk3

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:02 pm : 1 : 0 Flag

I haven't look at the posters yet. Paul became all things to all men so that he could win some. The thing I like about the emerging church is that it is MISSIONAL - and in that sense it is BIBLICAL. I am not seeing that missional message activated in American Evangelical Churches. There is a lot of talk but not that much walk. There is a lot of emphasis on externals and things that don't matter like moderate alchohol consumption (Jesus says it is not what goes into somebody that makes that person unholy, but it is what comes out of his mouth). Jesus loved the people who pierced themselves, the prostitutes, the tax collectors. He hated self-righteous pharissees. He told people to be careful about the yeast of the pharissees and saducees.

RBB

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:07 pm : 0 : 1 Flag

While I can not say that I like the posters very much. I like the casual and flippant attitude of postmodern/emergent/seeker-sensitive Christianity much less. Ours is an incredibly Holy God who does not take casual worship or attitude kindly. If you doubt it please read the Bible more. I particularly direct you to the Old Testament, where as much as you may not want to admit it, you will find the exact same God who was incarnated as our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the same God who struck down Uzzah in 2 Samuel 5:7 for simply putting his hand out to steady the Ark of the Covenant when the oxen pulling it stumbled. The same God who said witches and homosexuals were to be put to death. The same God who said that a man who had violated the Sabbath by going out and collecting sticks to make a fire on the Sabbath was to be put to death. This is not a God who is going to take lightly, Elvis church, Clown church, Cowboy church where a pastor comes out dressed like Garth Brooks and sings "I've Got Friends In Low Places" as part of the service, all things that have happened in the last six months. This is a God who incarnated as our Lord went into the Temple and destroyed the business' going on there, whipping the people who were running them for having the audacity to buy and sell within the Temple confines. Don't confuse Jesus with a manmade cross between the Easter Bunny, Santa and Gandhi, He's none of all that. He's the same God of which scripture says in Hebrews 10:31 "it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

didymus

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:46 am : 1 : 2 Flag

Jab: “…drinking is something that I do not tolerate.” Does this mean that you will condemn the brother who does tolerate it? Will you condemn the brother who does feel just fine with having a beer or a glass of wine?

I’ve seen this kind of intolerance in practice in a few places the past few years. I, as a beer and wine connoisseur, have been condemned, myself, a couple of times for not being pure enough for the church. Over this past year I finally left a church in my community in large part because I’m not righteous enough, my works are not pure enough, (I also noticed my thoughts weren’t Republican enough), grace is spoken of in the evangelical’s mantra, “we are saved by grace, not by works”, but little grace is give to anyone who doesn’t fit in with the purity laws. It’s simply not enough to be righteous in the eyes of God, we must meet a standard of righteousness also set by men. What I mean is that we often in our desire to be godly raise our own interpretation of the Bible to the level of the Bible itself, and other interpretations, readings, and points of view of the Bible are suppressed and derided, along with the individuals who hold them.

So… just as you have asked me to “choose carefully how tolerant you are”, I would ask you to choose carefully how intolerant you are. We must be careful of the forty lashes minus one attitude of the Pharisees, where the rules we design for ourselves to ‘keep us with the bounds of God’s laws’ become the new laws themselves.

Summathetes: I am sorry to see you disliked my comment so much, it grieves me so. I’ll try to reach your high intellectual standards in the future, but (again I’m so sorry) I just can’t shut up. Sorry. Have a nice day. :^)

jab

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:42 am : 1 : 0 Flag

Certain tolerance is good, and very much necessary. However, (for example) drinking is something that I do not tolerate. I do not make this decision in order lord over extrabiblical opnionated truth. No, I have come to this decision based on Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 8. Would I drink if I knew that whomever witnessed it would become an alcoholic? Would I drink in front of them if knew it would destroy their family? Even non-Christians would answer in the negative. Therefore, if my drinking could cause another to fall and stumble, then I can gladly live the rest of my life without a sip...in order to save my witness before men, and perhaps, just perhaps, save a family from destruction or untimely death.

Of course, I know what is coming next..."gluttony is sin, do you overeat in front of people causing them health concerns and possible death?" To that sort of argument I can simply reply that as humans, we WILL fall short, but as Christians we should never CHOOSE to fall short. By that I mean this, I can live without alcohol, can you live without food? Can you see the difference?

Now, lets apply this to all aspects of Christ's beautiful Bride, the Church. The Emerging Church is so energetic and enthusiastic in its approaches to reach the lost, however, in order to be followers of Christ there are aspects that we may have freedom to pursue, but just because it is not "sinful" does not mean that it is benefitial. Choose carefully how tolerant you are, not based on what is sin and what is allowable, but based on what will teach others to walk more closely with the Lord. Do not pursue tolerance, instead pursue a genuine relationship with God. Acting as Christ did, accepting all who will come, but just as Christ demonstrated, loving them too much to leave them where they lay, but rather teaching them to walk, and one day "run the good race".

summathetes

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:23 am : 4 : 2 Flag

D,

Before you speak, do us all a favor and do "some" or should I say "any" research before you speak. From one intolerant brother to another.

didymus

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:57 pm : 3 : 5 Flag

Hmmm… I guess I can go along with intolerance. Let’s see, my Bible says that Jesus drank wine, and not only did he drink it, but his first miracle was to make it, and not only did he just miraculously make wine – he made “good wine”, as in quality, dude. He made a lot of high quality wine for a party! And we all know what a good wedding party with a lot of good wine can turn into.

I read in a recent article of Christianity Today (I think it was) that the Southern Baptist’s are upholding an abstinence only kind of policy for their Missions funding. That ah… sounds a little extra-biblical to me, especially considering the fact Jesus, himself, imbibed of the divinely vintnered brew. Therefore it is my responsibility to all you readers from the SBC to inform you that you loading the heavy yoke of extra-biblical rules onto God’s people just as your brothers the Pharisees did before you. You are therefore condemned by God to eternal damnation. Have a nice day.

Just kidding… I’m a little more tolerant that that. But as I hope you can see intolerance is often more about condemning others we don’t see as ‘pure’ or ‘doctrinally correct’ as ourselves, than about loving others, even including our enemies. These posters by PyroManiacs appear to me to reflect more the condemning aspect than understanding one.