Atheism seems to be proliferating in literature, the media, and the Internet as more atheists challenge the dominance of religion and spread their worldview, urging other nonbelievers to "come out of the closet."
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Atheists 'Evangelizing' in America; How Christians Can Respond
By
Nathan Black
Christian Post Reporter
Tue, Oct. 09 2007 05:23 PM EDT
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DARWINISM and ATHEISM: UNSCIENTIFIC and MYTHICAL
http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
“The very existence of morality is evidence of a supreme moral governor.”
The existence of morality means that we evolved as bipedal primates that lived in bands and groups for hundreds of thousands of years. Not cooperating—not being “moral”—would have gotten you dead, and thus, not able to reproduce.
“The evidence of a complex design demands an even more complex designer.”
The evidence of complexity reveals a natural progression of existence. Designers and engineers like things simple and efficient, which life and the universe are not.
“The atheist believes that something came from nothing.”
Not quite. The atheist doesn’t have all the answers and we do not pretend we do.
“Since everything is ultimately an effect, there must be an uncaused first cause.”
What caused god(s)?
The very existence of morality is evidence of a supreme moral governor. The evidence of a complex design demands an even more complex designer. The atheist believes that something came from nothing. It makes much more sense to believe nothing comes from nothing and something is cause by something. Science says that every effect has a cause. Since everything is ultimately an effect, there must be an uncaused first cause. Otherwise, you believe in infinite regress. Defend that scientifically. We know that there is no such thing as perpetual motion. There must be a force that causes anything to move. Is it so hard to believe that there exists an Unmoved Mover who started the universe? These are just a samll portion of the evidence of God. The belief in a supreme being is a rational, intelligent, and even scholastic position to hold. The atheist has much faith to believe in no God in light of all the evidence.
correction * don't take my word for it...research it yourself** PS the Barna group is a statistics group usually hired by the church
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
the stats...please look at the references and take my word for it like you do from your preachers
YES,I will correct you because you are wrong. Many of you believers think that we are atheist because we don't want to follow rules, But if you look at the stats for population by religion...here in America 74% claim to be christian, 12-14% nonthiests if you were correct it would be fair to say that prison populations would be less than 74% and more than 12% nontheists...a 1999 fed prison study states that 78.2% are christian and .28% non...so as far as atheists not having morals, ethics or wanting to follow rules, we seem to do just fine.
Your only problem seems to be that we won't believe your stories based on a book written by men well after the supposed events as facts when they contradict what we see, test and know to be true
To Quill: Since you have read the Bible, perhaps you may remember this parable from Mark 18, starting at verse 10:
10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
The point being made is that not all who profess to be one of His elect, are sometimes not. There have been many great atrocities committed in His name. The Bible also speaks of these as well, from Matthew 7, starting at verse 20:
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Don't be fooled by the ones who said that they did this or did that for Him, when it does not align with His word. They are false prophets and truly do not speak for Him.
Please remember this: God is not about religion, He is about relationship. If He were about religion, stores would be setup all over the place called "Get your Salvation Here, only $49.95", or Wal-Salvation, or Salvation-R-Us, and on and on.
This is something that we can not buy, but does require a heavy price of one we cannot afford. Thank Yeshua in that he paid it for us!!
i'm also going to mention how nonsensical it is for people in these comments to point out "evil atheists" like Stalin who have done bad things throughout history. How many of you people who tote out Stalin during these discussions know that Josef Stalin was trained as a PRIEST in an Eastern Orthodox seminary? And even if it were an atheist, so what? Christians were burning people at stakes for almost two thousand years nonstop before Stalin came along. Even just 300 years ago, any public atheist would have been tortured and publicly executed. And you Christians want to portray atheists as historically intolerant? Give me a break.
Grow up already. Deciding whether there is a god or not is not a matter of piling up body counts and seeing whether believers have more atrocities on their side of the fence than nonbelievers. There really is no such thing as a god, and yes we can know that, to exactly the same degree that we can know there is no Santa Claus, no fairies, no unicorns (which the Bible mentions six times) and no leprechauns, because the evidence for the existence of all of those things is exactly the same.
This article is every bit as biased as one could have expected from such a publication. Some corrections:
According to a 2007 Harris study which anyone can find online, 15% of Americans now say there is probably no God, and are atheists, a far cry from the 2-9% that the author of this little smear piece would have you believe. Whether those 15% identify themselves as "secular humanists," "atheists", "brights", "freethinkers", or some other obscure term is irrelevant. Atheists are clearly what they are.
And here's another little tidbit that the author omitted: according to the last American Religious Identification Survey, atheism and agnosticism were both growing at a rate faster than ANY religion, while Christianity was at the same time declining faster than any religion. Even with a church on every streetcorner and trillions spent every year proselytizing, Christianity can not manage to even keep its own numbers from slipping away to atheism, which has no churches, no trillions, and very little proselytizing to speak of. How do you account for this, propagandists? Maybe the other side just has a more convincing argument.
Atheism presents itself as the “reasonable” alternative to religion which it broad brushes as oppressive and violent, while ignoring or dismissing atheism's potential to do likewise or worse. Lacking a transcendent authoritative codified code of morals, atheism operates out of an objectively baseless morality, and can only assure us it will do what is “reasonable,” such as insisting that pagan Hitler was a Christian (compare with original recipients of that name: Acts 11:26), while vehemently protesting against atheism being linked to men like Stalin. Yet the fact is mass murderers like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were acting out of the atheistic basis for morality, doing what was “reasonable” to them in murdering their multitudes, with their “political religion” being an effect of atheism. it has a legacy that is recently worse than even false formal religions http://www.geocities.com/heartland/estates/6535/krealmurd.htm. Presently, many atheists think it “reasonable” to remove children from Christian/creationist homes. http://richarddawkins.net/article,313,E-Petition-Abolish-Faith-Schools,Petitionspmgovuk
Atheism conveniently makes no real distinction between Biblical type Christianity versus it's aberrant (RC, etc.( forms), or other religions, and even must resort to attacking the character of Jesus Christ, and ignoring or dismiss the abundant and ongoing positive empirical proofs of His reality. Which is that ALL those who genuinely turn in their hearts to the LORD Jesus from sin, and cast all their faith in Him who died for their sins and rose again to save them, realize effects that correspond to the claims of Object of their faith, and are contingent upon obedience Him. Praise the Lord!
All human misconceptions about God are based on: an attempt to approach Him on ones own terms, conform Him into a being filled with human vices, reduce Him into an impersonal force easily manipulated by human will or elevating the created order as equivocal with the transcendent creator as if all physical substance of the universe were eternal. The very fact that atheists have faith in the improbable odds and chance as the "creator" of the universe and life means that they are superstitious by definition. Instead of seeking to know the one and only God who created this Earth, only to discover that it has been affected by humanity’s own evil, atheists sought to condemn Him as evil - in order to justify their lifestyle of defiance.
The atheists are only right in this sense: the god which the atheists have invented in their own minds does not exist and is merely the reflection of their own evil heart. The atheist’s god concept was manufactured to justify their personal rebellion against the Holy God, who will by nature hold them accountable for their crimes against Him. The atheist’s god DOES NOT exist. The one and only Holy Creator subsists necessarily.
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/
Well this is weird to report. I had been trying for two days to log on from my computer, and the system here would not allow it! I was beginning to think that I may have been banned for some reason.
I am on my husband's computer today (the original computer when I signed up here) and I was able to log in! Isn't that bit strange? Hmm....
Anyway...
Citizen, since I could not log in to reply here, I created a post at my Talk Wisdom blog.
http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2007/10/greatest-experiment.html
I hope you will consider replying there. If not, then copy and paste it here (if you wish to continue our conversation, that is).
I hope the Atheists are tolerant to us who pray as they are to those who kill.
Shawn: Our responsibilities are to each other, not to an imaginary deity.
The Life is not a magic, it is facts of evidence of GOD, miracle happened in Moses time and Jesus time as well at Prophet Mohammad time. Some time too much worldly knowledge make person in delusion. If he/she study universe which is tip of nail knowledge, he/She won't be able to stand how Almighty has created this whole universe, how bees has build the honeycomb, how Ants are running their show, how universe is balance. God claims he(almighty) will raise you from dust, which he mentioned in Qura^n about fetus, where it was unknown to medical professional at that time of revelation of holly books. The non- believer actually doesn’t want any restriction with boundaries. Freedom of choice, without responsibilities. Correct me if I am wrong.
once again there is no proof other than verbal that dreams exist....REM is external evidence not internal evidence, why cant we see other peoples dreams....the poit of my debate is to pose questions to challenge atheism and unfortunately if they were to answer those questions there qould be no consensus on the answer...which by definition is not measurable evidence.. :)
question for the atheist...can an atheist thrive in anarchy?
I love science as a former agnostic...and I truly believe that the futher science goes the closer they will realize that this wor/universe is not a coincidence...
last thought I have never seen another persons dream...yet there are "witnesses of the phenomena" Imagination or visualising something that does not exist into existence such as a movie or even having children are preconceived...that is a Godlike characteristic...otherwise ther would be no use for imagination it is illogical to have one or is it?
Ahhh the classic if there is a God Debate...we can start from the second law of thermodynamics or there is absolutely no concrete proff that God does not exist...hmmm well...lets try this instead of defensive posture how about an offensive posture...The Bible Illustrates two courses for human existence. One that Goes toward the Tree of life which is symbolic for the intimate connection with God and the other is the tree of the Knowledge of Goog and Evil which is the root (no pun intented) of humanism, relativism, and Atheism...or inother words My mind is my God...
If I were a nonbeliever but i was on the cusp to believe or not ...what would the Atheist have to offer me beyond the 5 senses?
Why do we exist?
What is the meaning of human life?
What empirical evidence do you have to prove that there is no life after death?
What is the standard for morality in a purely atheistic world?
What is the foundation of right and wrong in the atheist world?
What is your evidence of the foundation of the world?
I would like those answers first as an atheism skeptic...although I am being humorous...I have a problem with individuals who's knowledge base is from a finite source (the mind)...but seriously, the spirit of atheism is nothing more than a type of thought process that seeks to logically deduce their existence to meaningful nothingness...to long have ther been debate on the "Validity of God" from a defensive posture...knowing that you cant worhsip God with your five senses...so it is not fair to convince someone who is defined by those senses to convert...conversion does come by external stimuli but internal....being an atheist does nto bother me ...they have some cool ideas...what worries me is those that have felt the power of God and have drifted into an apostic state...there is no debate at that point...shake off the dust from your feet and keep moving...
Way to go JW! I'll be praying with you.
What an opportunity God has laid before us. In Acts he converted Saul. We need to be one voice and Pray without ceasing for these lost souls. This is our responsibility. It is also our wake up call to be Like Stephen the Martyr. No matter how many stones they throw at us. Forgive them and continue to pray for them. Another wakeup call, pray about our actions. We don't need to prove their point. Lets love them into the Community of Christ. Blessings
"....So Atheism, like all other false religions is a crutch. It is an opiate to calm the fear of judgment and shut the mouth of a guilty conscience. It is a lie desperately clung to by sinful minds in order to escape reality!...."
Do Atheists Exist?
http://polemos.net/Do%20Atheists%20Exist.html
christinewjc: It's important to add however, that what I've said does not detract from the specialness of your dad being able to enjoy some last pleasures before he went. That's special even if without knowledge of why it happened.
Christinewjc: You don't know what your dad saw, and you don't know why he suddenly got better. But you've taken that lack of knowledge and filled it with the assumptions of faith, rather than being honest and admitting that you do not know, and leaving it at that.
No Citizen. Your analysis of me and my beliefs is incomplete and therefore, incorrect. Taking the "believe it, then I'll see it" concept a bit further, I suggest you read about a very special, supernatural spiritual experience that I had had at the time when my dad was very ill with lung cancer. http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2007/10/because-of-faith-destiny-is-fixed.html
It is but one of many where God has come through and strengthened me towards steadfast faith in Jesus Christ.
I am sorry to read that you were once a believer, but have now abandoned the faith. It is never too late to turn your life back around towards faith in Jesus, though. There is always hope.
Christinewjc,
You made a very revealing point:
"The world says, 'I'll believe it when I see it.' God's Word tells us the opposite 'believe it, and then you will see it.'"
Since the implications of your own statement seem to be lost on you, let me try to spell them out. If you make a sincere effort to believe first, and say to heck with the empirical evidence, well of course it's going to have an impact on your life. If I told you that your entire family had died in a terrible car accident, and I was lying, it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever that they were all alive and well if you truly believed, without questioning, that what I said was true. Your entire being would be suddenly transformed. You would go through an actual, literally physical, transformation. Your internal chemistry would go wild. Such is the power of belief. But that doesn't make it empirically true. Not for a second.
christinewjc: You've hit on a crucial point, and that is confirmation bias. Once you believe, you'll look for anything and interpret data in anyway to keep your faith from being threatened. THAT'S why you think you see all this evidence, and that's why you put such authority in the bible. Not because the bible actually is evidence or has authority, but that you want to believe that it does. If you dropped that belief, I think you'd see what I see, a book of mythology no different than the others I have already listed.
savedbygrace: Congratulations on escaping that dark place! But I have to tell you, since we are sharing personal experiences, that believing in jesus did not ease the guilt I carried that in part led to my belief, nor my pain and distress... rationally changing my thoughts, my diet, and throwing away my bedside alarm clock did. I say this not as a reason for why I do not believe, but to show you that faith is not the only way to relieve suffering. I've walked into a church many a time, and did not have the reaction you did. Perhaps you already consciously or subconsciously believed or expected that you'd have such a reaction, and so you did. The mind is a powerful thing. You changed your mind to include faith, and that helped you, but what that shows me is that changing ones mind can help them, and that fits in with my own experience.
savedbygrace,
That's quite a story, and I'm sure everyone who reads it will be happy that you've found relief from your depression. That said, considering that you were in such a vulnerable place in your life perhaps it would have worked out just as well for you if your brother had taken you to a Buddhist temple, or a Sufi mosque, or even a Scientology center. All of these belief systems are attested to by their adherents.
Citizen wrote, "How do you know that Burton Mack has been debunked, if you haven't read the book to find out exactly what he says? "
Because you already told me that he denies the historical writers of the Gospels! Writing a book about it doesn't make his opinions truth.
Instead of relying on the fables of a writer like Mack, why don't you take the challenge given to you to study the evidence for the truth of the Bible for yourself?
And, as savedbygrace so eloquently shared, when you put aside human pride, meet Jesus, confess and repent of your sins and ask Him to reside in your heart, a transformation occurs like none other.
The world says, "I'll believe it when I see it." God's Word tells us the opposite "believe it, and then you will see it." It requires faith. God's Word tells us that without faith, it is impossible to please God. We must believe that He is. We are without excuse. The general revelation evidence of His Creation is all around us. We have the special revelation of His Son, Jesus Christ. Each one of us must answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?" How you answer that question will one day determine where your soul will end up in eternity. If I were you, I'd be sure of my decision.
After reading these comments, I had prepared to cite historical documents and archeological evidence supporting the existence of God. But I changed my mind because those things are not what made me believe in God.
I was a very rebellious teenager. Good looking and popular, I thought every worldly pleasure was mine for the taking. I might have been nice looking on the outside, but my “inner man” was in poor shape. I was swinging and carefree until tragedy struck in my life. Overnight my life changed into a nightmare of cold darkness. That’s how I felt...Cold and dark. I tried to commit suicide because I didn’t feel like there was anything left in life. I built a shell around myself. Preachers would come and pray for me. Friends would come to try to console me. But I couldn’t feel love, even though I had family who tried to show me their love. I was alone in my darkness. Until one night when my brother asked me to go to his church and I said ‘okay’.
The experience I had is beyond words. When I walked through the church doors, I felt a warmth envelope me. I sat and listened to the evangelist preach on Calvary. I could feel Jesus tugging on my heart’s door. I met Jesus that night. I could feel the change inside within a matter of minutes. I could literally feel the chains dropping from my heart and soul. The depression was gone. The desire to end my life was gone. The fear was gone. The sorrow was gone. The alcohol was gone. The nerve pills were gone. God did in a matter of minutes what no doctor or psychiatrist could do. He filled me with a love and joy that no human love could ever accomplish. And in all the years that I have known God--He has never failed me; He is merciful and longsuffering; He is just; He is holy; He has upheld me. That is why I believe.
christinewjc: How do you know that Burton Mack has been debunked, if you haven't read the book to find out exactly what he says? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Can you really say you have studied the evidence, if you won't read a book if there is a chance that make a strong case against what you already believe? Is that thorough research? How about the archaeological evidence...have you read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein? Have you read that book? If not, can you really say you've considered all the evidence?
I challenge you to read and thoughtfully consider the two books I have listed, or admit that you are the one with the closed mind, not me.
I don't need to read a book written by a questionable author who puts forth false information that has already been debunked.
If you took the time to do the research, you would see that the evidence for God is all on Christianity's side. In twenty-seven books of the New Testament, nineteen pagan writers (Gentiles), and three Jewish writers testify to Jesus Christ's historical reality.
If you took the time to do some research, you would see that Christians do not follow some cunningly devised fable, but a real person. There were, as the Bible proclaims, eyewitnesses to His majesty. Christianity is a reasonable faith. It is based on a set of incontrovertible, historical facts. Contrary to your sides' typical belief that it is a form of "intellectual suicide," given the facts, believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord is the most reasonable choice one can make.
But of course, anything I say here probably won't matter one bit to you. However, I will challenge you to study the evidence for the truth of the Bible. Ultimately, that is the one thing that might just work to counter your atheism and some day, I hope you will realize the saving truth of Christ.
Christinewjc: Oh I see how this works, you complain when you think I don't read your essay, but its ok for you to ignore my recommendation because you think you already know it all. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.
I don't need to read that book to know the truth about each gospel writer. Genuine scholars and historians have identified the authors. They are, in fact, identified in their own writings!
Have you ever read the Bible Citizen? These are such basic things that most atheists no longer try to refute anymore.
Briefly:
Matthew (Levi) was a Jewish tax collector who became one of Jesus' disciples. His Gospel forms the connecting link between the Old and New Testaments because of its emphasis on the fulfillment of prophecy.
John is identified as "the disciple whom Jesus loved" and called one of the "sons of thunder" by Jesus in Scripture. His Gospel message was to prove conclusively that Jesus is the Son of God and that all who believe in him will have eternal life.
Luke is known as the physician (Colossians 4:14), a Greek and Gentile Christian. He is the only known Gentile author in the New Testament. Luke was a close friend and companion of Paul. He also wrote Acts, and the two books go together.
Mark (John Mark) was not one of the 12 disciples but he accompanied Paul on his first missionary journey (Acts 13:13).
Christinewjc: For an example of a scholar who thinks that the authors of the gospels were anonymous, see Who Wrote The New Testament by Burton Mack.
I, too, will say what I have said before: Since you haven't yet presented anything solid, its silly to attack me for not believing you.
P.S.
I don't know which "scholars" you are following who incorrectly claim that the gospel writers were not eye witnesses. That is not true.
Citizen's objections are proof of the truth that I originally stated in my first post in this thread:
(Jesus' spoken words):
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
Jesus knew that many would reject him. The rich man thought that if someone were raised from the dead, then surely they would believe. But Jesus said that if they did not believe Moses and the prophets, then neither would they be convinced when he (Jesus) was resurrected from the dead.
Today, there are those who are also so set in their ways that neither Scripture nor God's Son Himself would shake them loose from their unbelief.
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The gate that leads to eternal life (see also John 10:7-9) is called "narrow."
This doesn't mean that it is difficult to become a Christian. The gospel message is simple enough that even a child can understand it. However, it is also profound enough to "confound the wise."
There is only one way to God, and only a few that decide to walk that road. Jesus' own words tell us that "there are few that find it."
All that we are required to do (as Christians) is share the gospel. It is each individual's choice to answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?" The answer is actually in that question! He is the great I AM!
Believing in Jesus is the only way to live eternally with God.
christinewjc: Greenleaf starts by calling Christianity a "science," which is ludicrous. Then he goes on to explain that he can't provide evidence for anyone who isn't already inclined to believe, "the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer" as he puts it. In other words, he doesn't propose to meet a standard of proof that would satisfy anyone who isn't already inclined to believe, much less provide objective evidence which any fairminded person, inclined to believe or not, could examine and be satisfied by. He intends that our minds be so open that our brains fall out. He then goes on to take seriously the idea that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, which scholars nowadays reject. How can we "credit" witnesses, if we don't know who they were, and are highly suspicious of them actually having been witnesses? He further assumes without proof that god exists and has revealed himself. He claims that man is "everywhere religious" which we know from the article above to be false. This man Greenleaf is highly unconvincing
Obviously, Citizen has chosen to ignore my list of evidences and probably didn't even bother to seek out Simon Greenleaf's essay.
For the sake of others reading here:
Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html
christinewjc: that you believe that the bible is true does not make it true. You have to provide extrinsic evidence. If the bible has no more weight than any of the other mythologies I mentioned, why would the stories about jesus within said bible matter? You can't just assert all those things about jesus, you have to support what you say with evidence. Your own testimony is not sufficient. Nor is the bible competent to testify concerning its own truth or falsity, because we cannot believe it in anything until we have extrinisic evidence. You can't assert that the bible has anything to do with god until you provide, again...extrinsic evidence. As for supposed prophecies, have you considered that the writers of the New Testament wrote it specifically to conform with what they thought prophecy said, without regard to a basis in facts?
Since you actually haven't provided anything solid, its kind of silly to attack me for not buying into what you are saying.
Citizen,
You asked:
"Christinewjc: why would the bible have any greater weight as evidence than the Bhagavad ghita, the Koran, greek mythology, egyptian mythology, Aztec mythology, comic books (modern day mythology)... "
There are many reasons why the Bible has greater weight for truth than any ot those you had listed. I will share just a few.
First, the Bible is the only Holy Book that is truth without any mixture of error. It is the Book that Jesus affirmed during his earthly ministry when he stated in his prayer to God the Father, "Your Word is truth."
Second, it is the only book that points to Christ as the Savior of the world. He is present within it's pages; even in the Old Testament passages.
Third, Jesus Christ is the only genuine, authentic Messiah whose life is an historical fact, archaeological fact, physical presence fact, and spiritual, supernatural fact. The death and resurrection to life of Jesus Christ has enough evidence to pass as "beyond any reasonable doubt" in a court of law. Again, do an internet search for Simon Greenleaf's essay on this.
Fourth, the Bible attests to it's own truth and authenticity. Briefly, the following shows evidence of this fact:
The Bible is God's Word to all mankind. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.
Fifth, there are over 350 prophecies regarding the Messiah in the Old Testament and New Testament; many of which have already been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The rest are to be fulfilled upon his second coming in the end times.
Of course, none of this would matter to you because, apparently, your mind is made up.
Perhaps you might like to read my blogpost about a recent debate between two Christians and two atheists from "rational response squad."
My blog is called Talk Wisdom. Here is the url for the post:
http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2007/05/folly-of-god-haters.html
Happy reading...
2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalms 12:6; 119:105, 160; Proverbs 30:5
I just assumed that convincing people to accept Jesus would be more important to most Christians than convincing people to reject homosexuality etc. I could very well be wrong about that. I'm starting to think that I am. Ya hear that, fellas? Y'all are turnin' me cynical...
Merkin: they are in a no-win situation. If they stop preaching on divisive social issues, that's "watering down the gospel." But if they continue, they make themselves unpopular, which some of them would rather have anyway, because that means that they are on the right track according to the bible. As long as people aren't buying what conservative Christians are selling, those are the two options.
Christinewjc: why would the bible have any greater weight as evidence than the Bhagavad ghita, the Koran, greek mythology, egyptian mythology, Aztec mythology, comic books (modern day mythology)...
SeanS & co:
Your defense doesn’t impress me much. Anyway, my purpose in raising these political points obviously wasn’t to change minds. I know many of you are steadfast in your hatred of homosexuality, resolute in your conviction that abortion is nothing more than cold and calculated murder, and utterly impervious to logic when it comes to the subject of biology. Anything I say on these topics will fall on deaf ears. My purpose was rather to point out that the vast majority of American non-Christians are unconvinced by your arguments in these cases. We see them as dishonest. You can thumbs down me all you like, but this article is about reaching out to the atheists, no? Well, as an atheist, I’m giving you some sound advice and sidestepping any critique of your theology. Rather generous of me, I thought. My advice is this: When you fly your Christian banner high and proud over such divisive subjects (that really have little to do with the central message of Jesus) you are alienating many who might otherwise be open to your Jesus patter. Where are your priorities?
"To say there is no God, means that you have to have absolute knowledge, which neither you, nor anyone else on this planet has."
Likewise, to say that there is a God, you must have the same absolute knowledge, which you rightly say "neither you, nor anyone else on this planet has."
"They have at one point become angry with God due to some self perceived injustice, and thus as a way of getting back at him, you deny His existence."
There is no logic here:
1. "Self perceived;" what does this mean, exactly? What perception do you have that is not "self perceived"? By definition, all of your perceptions (and everyone else's) are "self perceived" (unless you know of some way for me to experience your perceptions, etc).
2. You can't get angry at, or deny the existence of, something that does not exist. You would make a little more sense if you claimed that atheists are in a state of delusion or denial, but ultimately this only works if you can prove it to them, and you can't, so ... pointless.
i thought i'd repost my comment, since some poor, fragile, creature flagged it as inappropriate. Whether or not my points are controversial, I don't think anyone can claim that they are off topic.
I'd also like to make a public service announcement to my Christian brothers and sisters:
As an atheist, I can tell you something about what drives many of us away from your religion, and this article hints at it. There are at least three agendas that Christian groups tend to trumpet MUCH louder than any message of peace or love:
(1) Homophobia
(2) Constriction of women's rights
(3) Subversion of science education
A quick look around this very website confirms as much. To many people these "values" are both abhorrent and inseparable from Christianity. Perhaps you folks should try rethinking your priorities. This, however, is merely (undeserved) tactical advice. For those of us who are actually given to critical thinking, Citizen's point stands strong: Even if you demonstrated love and peace better than any other group of humans ever have, EVER, it wouldn't be evidence for the truth of Christian metaphysics. It would only show that Christianity was a useful system. Presently, most atheists won't even concede this much to your belief system, and so it would, tactically, be a good idea to lay off the bigotry/dishonesty a tad.
The resurrection of Jesus Christ has enough evidence to pass as truth even in a modern day courtroom. See Simon Greenleaf's essay. Therefore, "Citizen's" argument (as well as his/her fellow atheists) about whether or not God exists is in his (their) own mind(s). Atheism is their religion of choice.
I think that the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke illustrates the extent of pride, arrogance, and closed-mindedness of the atheistic mind quite well. There will be those who will just refuse to believe; no matter what a Christian shares with them.
Some background on this passage of Scripture. The rich man dies and goes to hell. He wants to warn his living brothers so that they won't make the same mistake he did in life. Jesus is sharing a conversation between the rich man (while in hell) and Abraham (father in the story):
Luk 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 <b>"But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"</b> (bold mine)
Jesus knew that many would reject him. The rich man thought that if someone were raised from the dead, then surely they would believe. But Jesus said that if they did not believe Moses and the prophets, then neither would they be convinced when he (Jesus) was resurrected from the dead.
Today, there are those who are also so set in their ways that neither Scripture nor God's Son himself would shake them loose from their unbelief.
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The gate that leads to eternal life (see also John 10:7-9) is called "narrow."
This doesn't mean that it is difficult to become a Christian. The gospel message is simple enough that even a child can understand it. However, <b>it is also profound enough to "confound the wise." </b>
There is only one way to God, and only a few that decide to walk that road. Jesus' own words tell us that "there are few that find it."
All that we are required to do (as Christians) is share the gospel. It is each individual's choice to answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?" The answer is actually in that question! He is the great I AM!
Believing in Jesus is the only way to live eternally with God.
calean007,
Atheists do not claim absolute knowledge. You are right in that no one on this earth CAN claim absolute knowledge . . . but based on the evidence, we have made up our mind. New evidence could arise that could alter our position.
I would also like to echo Citizen's simple but important message: Just because someone believes something, does not make it true.
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Hebrews 11:6. You can never come to the conclusion that God exists coming from a presupposition that He doesn't. Any evidence will be quickly dismissed or interpreted as though He doesn't exist and given a naturalistic explaination.
Merkin,
Please allow me to address the 3 points you made:
(1)Homophobia
A lot of anti-Christian groups love to spout this catchphrase. The literal interpretation of homophobia is a fear of homosexuals. Christians are not afraid of homosexuals. You are over exaggerating our disapproval of a behavior to place it in a negative light.
(2) Constriction of women's rights
In Genesis, the bible tells us that woman was made from the rib of Adam. Not his head, not his foot, but from his side. That would put the woman as an equal to man. Women should be able to do anything a man can but, just as the man, she should put her family above anything else except God. That includes her career.
(3) Subversion of science education
I’m guessing that you are talking about our opposition to the religion of evolution being taught in our classrooms. I say only this; present true evidence of the ‘missing’ link that ties two distinct species together and you can teach all the evolution you want.
The point is not to give you a warm fuzzy feeling about being a Christian. That's not what our religion is about. The point of Christianity is to show people their need for a Savior and that God has given them a way to eternal life. The desire for a Savior comes through showing sin for what it is, transgression of God's law. When a sinner sees his or her sin, and the price of that sin, they will cry out for forgiveness. Forgiveness comes thorough Christ alone. It's just that simple.
Merkin, how can you or anyone else claim to be atheists? To say there is no God, means that you have to have absolute knowledge, which neither you, nor anyone else on this planet has. You would have to know everything there is to know about the universe to say to a certainty there is no God. As for your points, Christians by and large, that is true Christians aren't homophobic. We simply reject homosexuality because Christ rejects it like any other sin. We don't reject homosexuals however, because out of love for their salvation, we try and minister to them. As for constriction of women's rights, I assume you refer to infanticide, which is abortion? So this drives you away, because we are standing up for those who cannot speak for themselves? Yeah, how cruel are we? As for subversion of scientific education, some may, but most don't. It's just when the theory of evolution is presented as fact, when scientifically it is not, but that alternative views to the origin of the universe are summarily rejected by the non-believing such as yourself and those like you, that's when we raise the hypocrite flag.
Ultimately, "atheists" are all the same. They have at one point become angry with God due to some self perceived injustice, and thus as a way of getting back at him, you deny His existence. So in a way, you aren't unbelieving outright, you choose to not believe as a matter of rebellion. Quite astonishing really when you think about it.
I'd also like to make a public service announcement to my Christian brothers and sisters:
As an atheist, I can tell you something about what drives many of us away from your religion, and this article hints at it. There are at least three agendas that Christians tend to trumpet MUCH louder than any message of peace or love:
(1) Homophobia
(2) Constriction of women's rights
(3) Subversion of science education
A quick look around this very website confirms as much. To many people these "values" are both abhorrent and inseparable from Christianity. Perhaps you folks should try rethinking your priorities. This, however, is merely (undeserved) tactical advice. For those of us who are actually given to critical thinking, Citizen's point stands strong: Even if you demonstrated love and peace better than any other group of humans ever have, EVER, it wouldn't be evidence for the truth of Christian metaphysics. It would only show that Christianity was a useful system. Presently, most atheists won't even concede this much to your belief system, and so it would, tactically, be a good idea to lay off the bigotry/dishonesty a tad.
The Watch,
You said:
" Because I believe with every fiber of my being that God exists and his Son, our Lord died for our sin, it accounts in every aspect on how I live my life."
The existence of your belief is not in dispute. It is undoubtedly an idea that exists in your brain. The existence of what you believe in is, and that is what my public service announcement addressed.
Citizen,
On the contrary. Because I believe with every fiber of my being that God exist and his Son, our Lord died for our sin, it accounts in every aspect on how I live my life. The way I live my life is this.....God loves you Citizen. Even though you profess not to believe He exist. He still loves you. You can point to all the science, all the philosophy, all the reasons why you believe He doesn't exist and it is still fine. He still loves you. I've had troubles in my life. I've had turmoil. I've have lived at times to not be the best man I could be. I even turned away from the Father and his call for a time. When the revelation came to me it changed me completely. Inside and out. I became the man I had always hoped I would. The revelation I had was; God loves me. I quit fighting Him and turning away. I stopped trying to replace Him in my life and started adding Him in every aspect. I still have trials and troubles, but now I have peace. I have understanding. Oh yeah, God loves me and He loves you also. He loves us so much He gave up His Son to the cross for us. I hope you have that same revelation one day and I see a different "public service" announcement.
A public service announcement to Christians... I think my fellow atheists would agree with me when I say: how you live your life has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not your god exists.