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Is Religion Child Abuse?
What About the Children?
By
Chuck Colson
Christian Post Guest Columnist
Thu, Oct. 11 2007 08:00 AM EDT
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Comments
Citizen, I suppose it's possible to interpret that verse in that method. Yet I see nothing in the context that would require that.
Dannypoo: I understood his verse to be a reference to hell, where I am told that eternal torture occurs.
I do not see where "hisone" mentioned anything about people being tortured for eternity?
hisone: Empty threats...that's all you have. I am kind of disturbed at your enthusiasm for imagining people who disagree with you being tortured for eternity, though.
You hear that sound?...... Could it be the sound of heaven's brass section warming up?
Luke 17:2 "It were well for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble."
Citizen, I do not believe my statement said anything to the effect that he "isn't persuading" anyone to his worldview. Simply, that I *believe* he is alienating more people than he is converting.
DannyPoo: By what measure do you know that he isn't persuading people to agree with him?
I often ponder, if Dawkins realizes how many people he alienates with his comments. He is possibly gaining supporters within his field of people who are already inclined to his perspective, but few converts to his worldview.
If religion is child abuse, then so is forcing them to participate in social experiments, like being raised in gay/lesbian families. If religion is child abuse, then we have to make sure that no world views are given any predominance over any other as those children grow up, so they can "decide for themselves" when they reach adulthood.
HidingBehindNickname: Nope, just a person interested in talking about and debating religion. Nonetheless, I am intrigued by your suggestion. Maybe I ought to see if they are interested in such a service!
I suspect citizen is an employee of this magazine, whose task is to stir up responses on hot-button articles. That would explain his extensive and time consuming commenting all over this site. Let's ignore him.
smbga: You can try to redefine all you want, but believing in god and jesus is still your religion. If you weren't religious, you would know that truth is not discovered by, as I said just below, artificially restricting what one is allowed to learn and know. Forcing those restrictions on children? Stealing their chance to learn all they can about the world and ourselves by indoctrinating them with fear of hellfire if they learn enough to see the Christianity for what it really is: mythology? Yeah, I'd call that abusive.
ChicagoMel: Only if "truth" means "artificial restrictions on what we are and are not allowed to think." Only by refusing to apply those restrictions to one's science or refusing to apply one's scientific training to faith can both be maintained. In other words, scientists have to deceive themselves to have both.
No, don't, because it's not a book of 'myths', it's a book of truth.
PS it doesn't stand in the way of science, many scientists are beleivers, at least in God if not Christianity so that's an obvious falsehood. Faith and science are perfectly capable of coexisting.
Is the Moon made of cream cheese? If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is there, does it make a noise? C'mon, Believers, forget Dawkins!! He's so out there it isn't funny. Religion is no more child abuse than chocolate. The fact is, he should be focusing on the real opiate of the people - SPORTS and POLITICS!!!! AND THE ENTERTAINMENT CULTURE!!!!
John5796: Christian resentment at people not believing them isn't pretty.
Citizen: Just want to remind you, although you will totally disagree, He is YOUR God too, who you will meet someday.
"In my honest opinion, assassination is worse than eating forbidden fruit, but in the eyes of God, it's all the same. It's sin. Sin is sin is sin. The "reward" for sin is all the same.
And you've just demonstrated that your god is not a just god, because his punishments are not in proportion to the crime. Therefore, his judgements are not the result of justice, but of tyranny. He is not "merciful" he is extortionate. You can't partake of his 'mercy' unless you pay with belief and obedience. This is the morality of a mafia protection racket.
You've also demonstrated that your morality is not from god, because you are more just than he, you understand that crimes are not equally bad. Why do you keep calling him just when by your own morality, he is unjust? Have you been taught not to trust your own morality? By your religion, perhaps?
"If your god didn't hate humanity, you wouldn't have the doctrine of original sin, and therefore, there would have been no need for a blood sacrifice of jesus to expiate it. To give you an example, I have an ancestor who participated in an assassination plot. Should I be condemned to eternal punishment because of what he did? Isn't an assassination plot far worse than what Adam and Eve did in your creation mythology?"
Original sin does not equal a hateful God. Original sin equals a hateful humanity. Original sin is not something God cursed on us, but is something Adam and Eve brought on themselves that unfortunately affects everybody. Sin cannot create perfection It only creates sin, therefore we are all born with a sinful nature. Luckily, you are not held accountable for the sins of your ancestors (Ezekiel 18:20). You are held accountable for your own sin. You are not condemned for what Eve did, but for what you're doing right now.
In my honest opinion, assassination is worse than eating forbidden fruit, but in the eyes of God, it's all the same. It's sin. Sin is sin is sin. The "reward" for sin is all the same.
God does demonstrate love and justice. You just choose not to see it. He demonstrates love by laying down his life for us. He demonstrates justice by judging sin/wrong doing/lawlessness. Tyrannts don't show people mercy and he did.
savannah: if you are going to claim that god created everything, ultimate responsibility for everything rests with him. Claiming that he gave us free will doesn't change anything, because being omniscient, he knew what would happen if he did that, and he did it anyway. Therefore, he is responsible for the consequences. You can't save your faith in a perfect god by plugging your ears when people point out your conceptions flaws. That's self-deception, heck, one might even call it a "god delusion."
savannah: If your god didn't hate humanity, you wouldn't have the doctrine of original sin, and therefore, there would have been no need for a blood sacrifice of jesus to expiate it. To give you an example, I have an ancestor who participated in an assassination plot. Should I be condemned to eternal punishment because of what he did? Isn't an assassination plot far worse than what Adam and Eve did in your creation mythology? Is it justice to hold descendants accountable for the crimes of an ancestor? Isn't it a principle of justice that punishment be in proportion to the crime? Can any crime, no matter how heinous justify eternal punishment? You talk about your god's love and justice, but your god demonstrate no justice or love, only tyranny and extortion through blood guilt, blood sacrifice, and eternal torture.
Citizen
I don't buy into a religion that hates humanity. If my God hated humanity there would be no Jesus. On the countrary, why would God waste his time with a humanity that hates him? Why would he waste his time on you? You don't like him, but for whatever reason he loves you and he keeps persuing your heart.
You're right, he is blameless. He gave us perfection and we said no and sided with his adversary. That's not his fault. He has every right to put us all on a train to hell because we deserve it. But because he loves us, he's shown us mercy.
You claiming that God hates humanity makes absolutely no sense. If God hated you, he wouldn't have died for you. No one lays down their life for someone they hate.
"Christianity, stands in the way of scientific progress—also untrue."
The actions of the church through out history contradicts this statement. Any time science was at odds with the teachings of the church, the scientist were tortured and or killed.
Science explains the mythology of the church, and lessens the hold on the 'believers'.
Religion is built on a three legged stool.
1 explain what the person does not understand at that moment.
2 to control the 'faithful' (do as I say or you go to Hell)
3 to extort the the 'faithful' (give until it hurts or you go to Hell)
I life for the world today, and try to make it better for tomorrow.
At the moment, form what I see; the fundamental christians are trying to bring on Armageddon.
Put down your book of myths, and step back 2 or 3 steps, and comparereality with you mythology/
This seems like another non-issue. Back when the Bible was part of the school day, the worst things you would hear about in school was an occasional fistfight. Look what you have now: school shootings, drugs, students threatening teachers lives, pregnant children, kids in high school with the IQ of a sixth grader from days of old, etc. It does not take a rocket scientist to SEE the difference, but it does take a complete moron not to.
*ehem* i was raised in a religion JC bought n died for His Church. With Peter to lead|feed the sheep, it has been in succession ever since. Far from perfect but necessary.
St James talks about true religion.. as well. Without the Christian religion,how does one train up a child the way he/she should go|live? Oh well....
Lying to children about the ultimate fate that will become of their life and bodies by ‘scaring’ them into believing that they will burn in Hell if they do not abide by God’s plan is justified by Christians with so much irrationality that it pushes manipulation and fallacy to the extreme. It is completely fair for Dawkins to criticize the teachings Christians shove down their childrens throat as the justification they [parents] latch onto and feed to their offspring never offers them a chance of rational thought or thinking for themselves. It almost seems ironic that the religious sector of human beings are the only ‘group’ who fear death so profoundly that they actually become anxious and depressed of something [death] that cannot be escaped by any means. There would be no rational justification for a God if you never got the chance to prance around in his kingdom of heaven right?
Us athiests do not live in fear, we do not panic at the thought of dying or even a single mention of the word death. It is acceptable to Atheists that ‘the universe soon forgets that we ever existed’ because we live everyday at its fullest….we ‘cease the moment’ and everything that comes our way. We do not bother lying to ourselves that someday when we die an imaginary being will come swoop us up to fly into the clouds, we are too busy trying to fix the mistakes you Christians have spread like a fatal disease all over our country and earth. We are too busy detesting prayer in school, the word ‘God’ in the Pledge, intelligent design and many other manipulative Christian rituals. We are too busy trying to rid the public sector of religious ‘Bigotry, Supertition and Ignorance’, so YOUR children will no longer have to live in fear.
“I do not believe in God, because I believe in man. Whatever his mistakes, man has for thousands of years been working to undo the botched job your god has made. There are…some potentates I would kill by any and all means at my disposal. They are Ignorance, Superstition, and Bigotry—the most sinister and tyrannical rulers on Earth.” –Emma Goldman
Citizen, if you have received 15 thumbs down responses at one time, you probably do hold the record for that.As far as my argument for the kind of god we would create, it probably wasn't the best argument.It was said out of frustration, not intelligence.Anyway, thanks for the discussion!!
savannah: Funny, humans get all the blame for petty transgressions, and the almighty creator of this whole bizarre system of blood sacrifice to escape eternal torture and punishment is somehow blameless. Why do you buy into a religion that hates humanity so much?
GoldenEagle: You should try being a Humanist, and see how many thumbs down you get then! :-) I think my record is 15 on a single post. I disagree that "a god that holds people accountable" is not a characteristic that a man-made god would have. On the contrary, it allows the person proclaiming said god to try to claim unquestionable authority, and tell others what to do. Two things that authoritarian people love, and there are a lot of authoritarians out there. Its exactly the sort of god they'd come up with. The love and peace god is exactly the sort of god egalitarian small 'd' democrats would come up with, and they are projecting too.
Citizen (in regards to your hypotheticals): You are WAY off.
Jesus doesn't say "I'll pay your debt if you promise to love me and do what I say." Jesus says, "Because I love you I'm going to die in your place." Jesus didn't die for us because of a promise we made to him or a promise we have to make to him. It's not conditional. He died because he loves us.
Now, if someone makes you that kind of offer and you refuse to accept it, that's not Jesus' fault. That's your fault. Although you don't love Jesus, he loves you and he died for your sins so that you can be free. But if you choose not to accept what he did for you...that's on you.
Either way, Hell wasn't made for people, it was made for Lucifer and his followers when they rebelled. But because we too sin and rebel, we can't go to heaven because heaven is Holy. So since we are like demons and rebel against God, we too find ourselves in Hell, not because God puts us there, but because that's the course we've chosen. If God wasn't a loving God, like you claim he isn't, he wouldn't have provided a way out for you. Nor would he have provided a means of hope and peace. He could have just let you and I and everyone else continue on to hell like we deserve.
So, according to your hypotheticals, I wouldn't consider that love. But it's a good think Jesus isn't like that.
I noticed that I received a thumbs down on my last post.People don't mind hearing that God is love.But when you talk of God being holy and just and holding people accountable, people don't want to hear that.It is exactly on this point that I find Christianity compelling.If we were to invent a God, would it be one who holds us accountable, or one that would let us do whatever we wanted with no consequences? That is prcisely why I do not believe that the God of Christianity is a man-made myth.
Again, I don't think we are telling the whole story if we run around saying God is love, without also saying that He is holy and just.His holiness and justice demand a punishment for sin.We can either accept the punishment that Jesus has taken on our behalf or we can accept that punishment ourselves in hell.I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate you giving me something to think about.
The most well adjusted, happiest, most loving kids I've ever met are the kids in the church. The difference between them and the kids in the world can't be compared. I taught art in a Middle School, the difference is startling.
The real abuse would be to not teach them about God, and let them spend a futile life with no hope, and then eternity in hell.
GoldenEagle: And I'm saying that true love can't be extorted, nor can extortion be excused by "holiness" (read: unaccountability) Obviously, none of this goes to the question what exists and what doesn't, this goes to the question of the supposed morality of this god everyone is always claiming is so good and so righteous. As long as hell in the picture, the god you speak of is not a loving god, but an extortioning god. And I think we can both agree that extortion is immoral. Which naturally brings up the question for you, if you do agree with me that extortion is immoral: How can you agree with me when the claimed source of your morality (presumably everything your source does is moral) disagrees?
I think what Colson is saying is that you are not telling the whole story if you leave out "salvation through Jesus".God has provided a way for us to not only escape Hell, but to actually go to Heaven.I guess the way I would look at it is if you love God, you're going to want to spend eternity with Him.If not, then then you are going to spend eternity apart from Him.I, like C.S. Lewis, struggle with the idea of Hell.But, when you're talking about a holy God, it is part of it.Thankfully, a way has been provided to escape Hell.The fact that you find it repulsive does not mean that there is no Hell, although the fact that I believe it is real doesn't make it so, either.
Tell me, would you believe a spouse who said, "I love you, and you better love me, or you'll be tortured for eternity!"? Would someone who loved you make such threats or allow such a fate to befall you?
Or how about this: Let's suppose that you have a lot of debt, and you are about to go bankrupt. Your spouse says "I could help you pay your debts, but you have to love me and do whatever I want, or I will allow you to fail!" Would you believe that the spouse was motivated by love? Or by the thrill of control, power and domination?
By these hypotheticals, we can see that "god's love" backed by the possibility of a trip to hell is an ego-ridden power trip, not love at all. Therefore, Colson's principle objection, that "salvation through jesus" has been left out, fails.
I like Chuck Colson.You can tell he learned well from reading C.S. Lewis.Good article.
Wow, you can almost hear the crickets chirp.
Dawkins' type is dangerous, not only to Christianity but also to any other faith in the world. His type will cause a worldwide push to have religion banned or at least pushed into a single fold so that no one is left out.
If you haven't noticed, there has been a huge push lately from the atheists and agnostics to have religion recognized as dangerous... it is time for the Christian community to stop fighting over creation, length of days, baptism and whatnot. This is not the time to have the few precious hours that the preacher has to spend it on a sorry excuse for a sermon.
We need to teach, get motivated, and start walking the walk and talking the talk before it is too late.