The evangelical pro-Romney bandwagon recruited some vocal conservative heavyweights this past week, leaving behind only a few leaders willing to counter their peers and press the Mormon issue.
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Why Some Evangelicals Won't Vote for Romney
The Other Side of the Mormon Story
By
Michelle Vu
Christian Post Reporter
Tue, Oct. 16 2007 10:09 AM EDT
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Comments
I have the dubious distinction of being a 17 year resident of the state that yeilded William Jefferson Clinton. Clinton began his presidential campaingn by breaking a promise. Before he ran for president Clinton in order to be realected governor of Arkansas promised Arkansans that if they reelected him he would not seek the White House. We all know what happened after that. Clinton is proven liar and I think that most Americans simply do not realize how deeply Clinton compromised himself and this country with his dishonesty. Despite Arkansas dubious distinction as the "home of Clinton" I think Arkansas has redeemed itself somewhat in Mike Huckabee. To be honest I have never thought much of Huckabee in the past but since I have listened to him speak a great deal more since he entered the race I have to admit that I have changed my view of him considerably. I think that he is the ONLY candidate who has espoused the "ole time" Republican values. He is so far the only candidate to clearly hit upon the federalist anit-federalist struggle that is always at the forefront of American politics whether people speak of it or not. To clarify for those who are unfamiliar with this old argument Huckabee believes that the Federal government should not run and order our lives. States should have the greater authority over domestic affairs and the Feds should simply stay out of it. If a progressive Republican or God forbid Hillary Clinton is elected I am certain that we will continue to see the growth and development of an "all powerful" centralized government that feels free to put its two cents in on nearly every issue. Huckabee actually wants to take us back to what the governement was meant to be by our Founding Fathers. The purpose of the Federal government according to our Founding Fathers was simply to protect us from external threats and to ensure that our rights are protected. Ensureing the domestic tranquility does not and never did mean that the government is there to run our lives. This authoritarian centralized government that we have taxes us to death and makes a complete mess of almost everything that it touches. The best government in my opinion is one that I never see until "it" hits the fan. Lets put the power back with the states were it belongs and thus back with the People. The people who are running our country are sick. They are fat with power and the the search for power has become their sole motivator. Lets take our country back from the politicians and lawyers. The truth of the matter is that it is not actually our country anymore since it is so clear that "they" and not "we" who control it. Lets put these people in their place (prision) and run this country the way it was intended to be run. I think Mike Huckabee truly believes in this. It's not just his platform but the product of his efforts. I think everybody should give this man another look.
As a 25 year-old so-called "Values Voter" from New England, I cannot imagine voting for a do-nothing governor to be a do-nothing president. It was under this man's watch that the Massachusett's court system denied a democratic vote on gay marriage and illegally made marriage law. He allowed courts to legislate laws then, what makes you think it'll be any different in the future? Maybe he is a nice guy, but that's exactly what we don't need, more 'nice' guys without a backbone in authority.
How do we hold our GOP responsible for not pursuing the social conservative values that our political party has stood for? In 2006, the GOP lost the Congressional race because they were more interested in winning than introducing and implementing the values they were elected to pursue. They still don't seem to get it. Now, in the presidential race we have candidates that don't stand for our values. Giuliani is a democrat in GOP clothing, Romney is a flip-flopper that stood for liberal causes as Mass Gov, and McCain is the "maverick" that compromises with the Left on every stance. Each of these candidates now wants you to believe they stand for Conservative values. Thompson says he will not "court" the "religious right" (to me the values voters) and has given support to abortionist firm in the past. Where is the GOP as a party moving toward? Are we for smaller govt, less taxes, conservative social issues? If so, we need to have folks like Mike Huckabee and Duncan Hunter as the front runners. Hope the primaries shake out someone other than Giuliani or it sets a bad precedence from here on in.
As a 47-year old conservative born-again Christian, husband of the same wife for 15 years, and father of 6 young children, I strongly encourage ALL Christians to be diligent in researching the historical background of each candidate, and, using the internet extensively for this purpose. One thing that I've discovered in doing this is that it becomes blatantly clear that we should NOT take our news from the mainstream (I call them the tabloid) press. We should also be very careful on depending on so-called "Christian" websites. Let me tell you why I say this. I have long followed the American Family Organization (afa.org), and have been appalled by their slanted and mis-informing coverage of this presidential race. They choose to cover the flip-flopping pro-war Romney, Giuliani, and McCain, while ignoring, or mis-reporting on the only true conservative, pro-life, pro-peace, pro-American, and up-and-coming sensation, Congressman and Dr., Ron Paul. Please, before you listen to the media slant on this man's positions, take time to hear them from HIS mouth. He is extremely intelligent, honest, straight-forward, and is telling us what we NEED to hear, not just what we WANT to hear. America is in trouble my friends. Look at our falling dollar - lower than Canada now. We will perish for lack on knowledge. Get on your face and pray, and wake up!
Ok, now for some facts, and web addresses to make your research easier. The internet, one can argue, is really just one big "POLL". The so-called polls that the media uses are small in size, and often times leave Ron Paul out of the poll entirely. Consider...
-Ron Paul has raised more money from both active and retired military personnel than ANY other candidate, including Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton (Source: Houston Chronicle - take from Federal Election Commission donation records).
-www.RonPaul2008.com gets more traffic than ANY other presidential campaign website, even beating out Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama (Source: http://hitwise.com/political-data-center/) Note: This company tracks traffic of 25 million people to over 1 million websites and was recently purchased by Experian, the credit company, for $240M dollars).
-Ron Paul is motivating young voters to engage. He's the #1 most-watched, most-subscribed presidential candidate on YOUTUBE, dwarfing all the other candidates. What does he stand for that is motivating such passion in people of ALL ages who check in on him? (Source: www.TechPresident.com)
-Ron Paul has been the most-searched term in the blogosphere now for 5 months running (in the top ten, and the only presidential candidate to have this honor - Source: www.Technorati.com).
-Ron Paul has $5.4 Million dollars in the bank, making John McCain now the 'second-tier' candidate, who has no money, but only debt to show after this most-recent quarter of fundraising. Ron Paul raised 5x more money than Huckabee last quarter, and this quarter has already, in the first 3 weeks, raised more than Huckabee's entire last quarter.
-Ron Paul gets the least debate time, the least media coverage, and is often-times mis-quoted, mis-reported, and generally written off as someone who can't win. Why is his campaign growing and growing and growing? Could it be his record, and his message?
-Andrew Napolitano, the Fox News Commentary and former judge, this past June says of Ron Paul, "Ron Paul is the Thomas Jefferson of our day". Let's not miss a chance to put a man of this caliber in the White House folks. Heaven knows we need him....how about you checking him out now.
www.RonPaul2008.com
www.DailyPaul.com
www.FreeMe.TV
www.IHateRonPaul.com
mer-
You are simply wrong. Christ is not "A" deity. Christ is "THE" deity. The Bible calls him in litteral language "GOD" as in "THE" GOD. There is only One. "ZION" is Jerusalem. The Children of Israel are not lost and never were. They have been with us all along. They are here with us now and they are still fighting the same battles. They were called back to Zion from the far corners of the Earth. The surviving tribes are reassembled and unless you are Jewish YOU ARE NOT among them.
The Office of the President of the United States remains a sacred trust despite the fact that so many presidents and citizens seem to have done their best to damage its honor and to undermine its dignity. The President is supposed to be a person who shares the common mans concerns as though they were his/her own. That person must place the interest of the People ahead of any other concern whether political or otherwise. In order to accomplish this that person absolutely MUST share the beliefs of his or her people. I think that George Washington serves as the shining example of what a President of the United States should be. He was a deeply Christian man who held the reigns of power at his people’s bequest and then when he might have fallen to the corruption of power as so many others throughout history have, he walked away. While we might describe Washington as a great man and the father of our country, he might instead describe himself as the unhappy fellow whose fate it was to be pulled away from the peace he might otherwise have enjoyed. He viewed leadership as an immense burden and he only accepted out of his since of duty. That "duty" was to his neighbors, country, conscience and to God. Though we must know that no man save only One has ever been perfect, we must still insist that our president embody to the highest degree possible all that is good in us and that includes the American Majority's Christian faith for surely their is nothing in us that could be more noble than true faith in Christ.
"Keller, meanwhile, emphasized that the god of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible is different than the Jesus Mormons believe in. Jesus of Mormonism is a created being and not a deity, he is the brother of Lucifer, and will return not to the Mount of Olives as in the Bible but to Independence, Mo., pointed out the ministry leader."
Bill Keller should stick with commenting on his own faith.
Mormons believe the Jesus taught in the Bible. Mormons read the Bible to know Jesus Christ. He most certainly is a deity. He will return to the Mount of Olives; this is plainly stated in the Bible. He will also return to Zion which will be located in the American heartland (Independence, Mo).
hmm
Conservative Christian Values Voter:
Are you looking for the right candidate to support?
Please consider this essay:
"Who Was That Masked Man?"
http://truthrealm.com/?q=node/7
amendoza, thank you for the offer, but I think a real conversation between ep and I is probably more likely if neither of us feels any need to play to a wider audience. :)
If we would all just vote for Ron Paul, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/life-and-liberty/
PLEASE VIIEW THIS LINK FOR A COMPLETE EXPLANATION OF MORMONISM...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
"CARTOON BANNED BY THE MORMON CHURCH"
I don’t vote for a person because of his/her religious belief, the reason I vote for them is for what I think they can do my country and it people. I didn’t vote for either of the two main party candidates in the last two elections because I didn’t believe he would be good for this country and I think I made the correct choice.
I sure was not going to run out and join the church the president Bush belongs too that is for sure.
I want you to see what Eisenhower belief was when he ran for office. I think you might be surprised when you find out I was that is if the history I read was correct.
The one we have in office now said God talk to him, but he must have forgot the line about not telling the truth and all that. Come on give me a break.
I know there are people out there would vote for a mule if their pastor or one of the big names on TV told them too. That is not what elections are all about you vote for the person who you think will do the best job while in office. Right now in my mind they are all still out to lunch.
ep1433 and FT I enjoy reading your posts and if you would like I would love to host a spot for you to go back and forth on my blog (www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com) as to me not responding to the bigotry I did
here it is once more:
as far as me being a bigot, you can say that if you like but would you vote for a Witch or a Shaman if no then your a bigot as well. I will take the name of bigot when it come to who will reside over my county (for the record I was ignoring your points on relating youself to African-Americans due to the fact that it is totally asinine) as far as what you cannot do, I have no problem with Mormons being teachers and police and other things of the sort due to the fact that especcially in teaching, your religious beliefs are not allowed to be involved (seperation of church and state) but when it comes to becoming the president of the United States there is no way that your religion will not be involed in decisions made.
please consider posting your disscusions on my blog and if you have any Questions email me at renonut2006 (at) gmail dot com
FT - Sorry but I hardly disengaged because I refused to examine soemthing. Nice way to try and play to the crowd. I specifically remember conversations we had and I can go back to my email and forward you where we left off. Please feel free to email me at pregmanishere at yahoo dot com
That ex-Mormons would claim to have finally seen the light is a silly bit of evidence to offer. An ex-evangelical could equally say the same and as a former Presbyterian I would probably describe my conversion that way. It proves only that when we change our beliefs, we would desrcibe it similarly.
That none of you are willing to respond to my claim (with proof) that a position against Romney due to his faith is bigoted and a marke of igorance is a telling point. Rather than defend this claim you merely attack my faith. Well done.
FT email me when ever you please.
Wait, now I do recall. That was you? You disengaged before we ever got started. I figured you became disturbed by the issues raised and therefore chose to place them on a mental shelf.
Again I will say to you, study the Book of Abraham issue. It is rock solid.
I know you may be unable to see these things for what they really are, but I hope you one day will. For many ex-Mormons, they describe it as though a light turned on, or as blinders falling from their eyes. They are usually then stunned to think back at how they could not see it before!
Best of luck to you.
FT- regarding Mormons having anything to fear from the liberla press, I say "bring it on".
And while none of us can claim to lack bias FT, if you recall we spoke via email previouosly and you never offered me anything to cause concern or reject any LDS belief. Your position is a matter of opinion not fact.
In my 13 plus years as a Mormon, I have had multiple such conversations. You claim it is EASY to prove my faith false. I have an above average IQ. Why has something so easy never been achieved with me? You yourself failed previoulsy.
ep1433, with respect, I have heard all those arguments before and investigated them fully. They do not hold water. This comment section is far too unwieldy a place to discuss them, but you can email me at ftaggie **AT** yahoo dot com if you would really like to challenge yourself.
In the meantime, whether you agree with me or not, I am 100% certain that Mormonism is false and easily proven false. I would expect my president to be able to reach the same inescapable conclusion. If he cannot, then he should not be prez. By the way, if Romney were to win the GOP nomination, the liberal press will start hammering on things like Lamanite DNA and the Book of Abraham. It could end up being the worst possible thing for your church.
And I still say that any opinion that one's faith can disqualify them from the Presidency is indeed bigoted. That this belief seems to emenate specifically from the Evangelical faith might be telling. Surveys support my contention that it is a result not only of being an Evangelical but also a lack of education. Again, so sayeth a survey reported here on this website.
I am doing my best to restrain my frustration (probably not doing very well). I can't promise this election hasn't begun to taint my view of Evangelicals. But when I say that some evangelicals are taking a bigoted position held primarily by uneducated members of their faith, it would seem that the facts are on my side.
FT - Indeed, evidence from 1973 makes a pretty strong case. I was not even alive at that time and I am now 33 but that's beside the point.
That no evidence PROVEs that the BoM is a historical document is not shocking. The BoM, while it provides some hsitorical details, is primarily a spiritual document. The intent of Prophets was not to provide a detialed history. As such, it does not make a good trail of bread crumbs for arch. to follow. That being said, there have been many discoveries that have supported things mentioend in the BoM not the least of which is the stone stela in Mexico that DOES even to an objective observer indicate a strong similarity to the dream of Lehi found in 1 Nephi. What is obvious is that no arch. evidence will even be found that when translated reads "here lies proof of the BoM". What can be expected (and what my examples describe) is a pattern of revealed evidence suggesting the truth of the BoM.
So no, comments from 1973 do no concern me.
If you'd like I could point you to the section in any public library that equally would claim to lay waste to many Biblical events. I am not saying I support these ideas, but again, objective observation might equally bring the Bible into question.
AMendoza - Fair enough. Thanks for your response about a Hillary/Romney match up.
Would I vote for a Wich or Shaman I might first point out that that is an entirely unlikely event. There are more Mormons in Ameican that Presbyterians or Episcopalians. So there is a good likleyhood we may see this again. But to answer your question, yes, if a Shaman ran on a platform of being pro-life, anti gay marriage, small government and had a record of success in many facets of life (family, work, education, government) and beloged to a faith that equally shareds those values ( I don't pretent to knwo what Shamans believe) I would gladly vote for them. Personally I do not have a knee-jerk reaction to a persons religion or beliefs but that's just me.
ep1433: I did respond to your point about Hillary winning
here it is again:
If it comes down to Romney as the republican canidate I will vote for him, the lessar of two evils (not insinuating Mormons are evil its just a phrase so don't freak). Until that becomes a reality I will continue to not support Romney not only becaue he believes in a false religion but because i dont believe he is the man for the job.
as far as me being a bigot, you can say that if you like but would you vote for a Witch or a Shaman if no then your a bigot as well. I will take the name of bigot when it come to who will reside over my county (for the record I was ignoring your points on relating youself to African-Americans due to the fact that it is totally asinine) as far as what you cannot do, I have no problem with Mormons being teachers and police and other things of the sort due to the fact that especcially in teaching, your religious beliefs are not allowed to be involved (seperation of church and state) but when it comes to becoming the president of the United States there is no way that your religion will not be involed in decisions made. As far as me not possibly being a Christian one of is a Christian and the other is not. If you are right I go to a lower heaven but if I am right you burn in hell. you state "What any objective observer would see is that I am a Christian but I believe differently than you do. Frankly, if any slight difference in belief disqualifies someone as a Christian, YOU might be as likely to not be Christian as I am." I would say God being a created being and Jesus the brotehr of Lucifer a little more than slight diferences not to mention the fact that you belive you can become a God like ' The Father ' is.
ep1433: In 1973, Michael Coe, one of the best known authorities on archaeology of the New World, wrote an article for Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1973. After telling of the Mormon belief in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, he frankly stated: "Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true,... nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon... is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere." (pp.42, 46)
Consider also the Book of Abraham. Much of Mormonism's unique theology comes from this book. The origin of this book is one of the clearest proofs against Mormonism. Joseph Smith purchased some papyrus that was found with an Egyptian mummy and was part of a traveling museum show. At the time, no one in the USA knew how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs. Joseph Smith took it upon himself to "translate" the papyrus he bought. The result was the "Book of Abraham" - a tale of Abraham's trip to Egypt where he was almost killed by an evil Egyptian priest and where he sat on Pharaoh's throne and explained astrology to the Egyptians.
Well, once Egyptologists learned to read hieroglyphs, and once the papyrus was analyzed, it turns out that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up. The papyrus was nothing more than a common Egyptian funerary text.
Tripod - Thanks for responding to my point about the potential loss of influence to evangelicals if they avoid Romney. I disagree but you at least articulated the opposing position. Thanks.
While I appreciate your claim that Christians must vote their conscience, I think most Americans will rightly view such a decision (not to back Romney) as rooted in religous bigotry and pettiness than a conscientous objection rooted in principle. But that's my perspective.
I can't imagine Evangelicals want to let a Pres. Hillary decide the next Supreme Court appointments and Gay Marriage issues though. Personally I will view Evangelicals to bear most of the blame if they avoid Mitt and he loses but that's just me. If Mitt were to be rejected on his policies or other substantive reason I could live with that. But it is hard not to take rejection based on faith personally as a Mormon.
Would the rest of you please let me know what other facets of public life I, as a Mormon, am not fit to participate in? Please just be up front about your principled bigotry. It would helpful if you coulld articulate it further. I know understand that you don't think a Mormon should be president. What else CAN'T I do? Should I be barred from teaching your children. Should I be barred from ANY public office? What else. My own Mormon drinking fountain? Should we all be corralled in one state?
FT - Where your premise fails is thta it claims to own "facts". Thing about facts is they are just as subjective as opinions. That there was is no evidence of a "vast Hebew/Christian" civilization in the American's is a matter of opinion. The most honest, objective "fact' is that there is little evidence of ANY civilization. One Archaeologist stated that only 3% of all likely evidence of Meso-American peoples has been found. Imagine what we would know about current Americans if we only had 3% of all evidence. The DNA evidence is another "fact" that is completely subjective. A Harvard professor disagrees atht DNA can disprove a Hebrew people in America. So your claim to have possession of "facts" proving Mormons wrong is more accurately your opinion than a fact.
ep1433 wrote: Your basic premise, if I was following correctly is this: "Mormons are wrong because their belifs [sic] are based on falsehoods. Does this also disqualify other faiths? No, because their faiths are based on true miracles."
No, you COMPLETELY missed my point and misunderstood my premise. You can factually test LDS claims to see if they are true. Did Joseph Smith really interpret an Egyptian scroll and find a story of Abraham (which is now vital LDS scripture)? We have the scroll itself. We can test the claim FACTUALLY.
Was there a vast Hebrew/Christian civilization in the Americas prior to Columbus? We can test this FACTUALLY. And guess what all the tests show?
AMendoza - If you know any Mormons you have not been payng close attention to what they have been saying. Mormons have always believed themselves to be Christian. Do we believe as many other Christians do? Absolutely not.
Your point about Hindu's is mistaken. To make your analogy more accurate I would say this: "I claim to be Hindu as do you but while we both believe in dharma, moksha and samsara, and we both practive puja, I subscribe to a Vedic school and you do not".
What all those words mean in my analogy is that we both believe Jesus Christ is divine, that he is the saviour, we use the Bible, but I do not subscribe to the same belief in the trinity as you do. As a result, I do not suddenly become as likely to be Hindu or Bhuddist as Christian. What any objective observer would see is that I am a Christian but I believe differently than you do. Frankly, if any slight difference in belief disqualifies someone as a Christian, YOU might be as likely to not be Christian as I am.
FYI, I do not know any Mormons who do not believe they are Christian. I have been LDS for 12 years. I have lived in 3 states and attended 15 or so congregations and I have never met a Mormon who didn't think they were Christian. And if you believe the polls that this website reported, most other Christians (Presbyterians, catholics, etc.) also see the LDS as Christian. It is the Evangelicals that disagree. You are alone in that.
By the way, I completely agree with FT. Believing in Mormonism shows a total lack of critical thinking. This is a huge part of why I wouldn't vote for a Mormon.
I don't understand why so many so-called conservative Christians are backing Mitt Romney. It is very early in the election and a Republican nominee has yet to be chosen. If evangelical Christians would put their considerable power behind a good Christian candidate, that candidate might actually have a chance! But instead, the Christian leaders, and apparently the people too, have already resigned themselves for voting for a Mormon or a Christian who supports abortion.
There are a number of good Christian cadidates out there right now who need your vote and support. Paul and Huckabee are both superior in every way to Romney or Guiliani. Or how about McCain? Why are these evangelical leaders not backing some other candidate? I just don't get this.
As to losing credibility if Christians stay home - nothing would make Christians lose credibility more with the Republican party than being willing to vote for any candidate they choose to run, no matter how much his own personal beliefs or religion are opposed to ours!! Think of it, if the headlines are Christians stay home (or vote 3rd party), then the Republican party knows they need to field a GOOD CANDIDATE in order to get this voting bloc! Then we have credibility that we will actually VOTE OUR CONSCIENCES! This is what Christian people should be doing! If Christians go out and vote for Romney or Guiliani, we will lose all credibility as a group whose concerns should be addressed by our leaders.
The current administration has already totally ignored Christians. Where is the anti-gay marriage amendment? Where is the attempt to overturn Roe V Wade? They have done nothing, and expect they will still get our votes. Apparently, they are right, from what I am reading from Christians and Christian leaders. With this type of attitude, I don't have much hope for the future of our country.
FT - Your faulty logic is about as stable as a hollywood starklet after rehab. Your basic premise, if I was following correctly is this: "Mormons are wrong because their belifs are based on falsehoods. Does this also disqualify other faiths? No, because their faiths are based on true miracles." Huh? really. That's like saying Mormons are false because they are false and the proof is that other faiths aren't false.
And then you follow it up with "I hope you can see how reasonable people could doubt the judgment of a man...".
No FT, I can't see how reasonable people would come to this conclusion. In fact how any reasonable person could ignore such an impressive resume is what I can't see. And it's hardly only a business resume. Keep in mind he has twin advanced degrees (top of his class) from argueably America's best University. He was a classmate of our current evangelical President. But the differences are telling. Romney was raising his children and graduating top of his class in TWO programs while Bush was getting gentleman's C's and partying in one program. Such demanding education takes EXTREMELY good judgement and critical thinking skills. He further demonstrated these skills both in business and government. If we were to ask what on YOUR resume demonstrates such finely tuned skills, how would you stack up against Romney?
Anyone who can would ignore such obvious evidence of excellent skills and then offers non-existent logic to prove their point would be the one whose thinking I would question.
And funny how none of you are willing to defend your bigoted positions. I pointed out how such a position is extremely prejudiced a none of you batted an eye. I guess your comfortable with such blatant bigotry?
You also ignored my well made point regarding the fallout from a Romnet boycott in a general election.
And FT, I completely reject our claim that "Mormonism has been demonstrated by clear and convincing FACTUAL evidence to be false." This is rediculous. You've made this claim before and I have never found your evidence to be the least bit compelling.
But then I guess you'll just dismiss me as "acking critical thinking skills" as well huh? I see, that's a pretty easy system. Claim Mormons are wrong. If a Mormons disagrees just claim they lack reason and judgement rather than support your point. It's like this:
"Rule 1. Mormons are wrong. Rule 2 If Mormons are not wrong refer to rule one."
ep1433: the point that you proved is that Mormons claim that they are Christian. according to your logic I can say that I am a Hindu even though I dont believe anything they do but its not like they have the name Hindu copyrighted! as you can see that makes no sence. If it comes down to Romney as the republican canidate I will vote for him, the lessar of two evils (not insinuating Mormons are evil its just a phrase so don't freak). Until that becomes a reality I will continue to not support Romney not only becaue he believes in a false religion but because i dont believe he is the man for the job. By the way, I call all false religions cults including Muslims and scientology or any other fase religion
to didymus: as you can see from ep1433 there are mormons that claim they are Christians. Also Glenn Beck from CNN stated repeatedly that he was Christian and it was only until Romney put his hat in the ring that Glenn stated that he was in fact a Morman. I happen to know many mormans as I attended a school that a majority of the students were Mormon so a large number af good friends are mormons but most of my friends are reasonable and sensible enough to admit that there is no way that they and I could be both Christian.
Anthony Mendoza
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com
Whether one remains a Mormon should have little to do with faith. It has to do with simple reason. Think about it this way: If I tell you I have a marble in my closed fist, you may, on faith, believe me. If I open my hand and show you that there is no marble, then the truth trumps your faith.
For Mormonism, the hand has been opened, and there is no marble to be seen. Only those who do not investigate or who suffer from cognitive dissonance can accept Mormonism’s claims.
You may be thinking, “Wait, can’t you make that argument about any religion? Couldn’t you say that someone who believes the Red Sea parted or Lazarus rose from the dead is being ‘irrational’? If you apply this standard, doesn’t every religion fail?” No, and here is why. Those kinds of examples (raising the dead, etc.) all depend on the miraculous power of God. Reasonable people can assume the possibility of the miraculous. If you believe in God, then you can believe that He can do miracles such as raising the dead and parting the Red Sea. The Book of Mormon is stuffed full of such miracles attributed to God. I have no quarrel with those who acknowledge the possibility of the miraculous, and I have no complaints about Mormons for their belief in miracles. Allowing for miracles, though, is quite different than ignoring factual claims.
I hope you can see how reasonable people could doubt the judgment of a man who bases his entire life on a thoroughly discredited religion. Good man? Probably. Good policy views? Don’t know enough about them. Good enough for the oval office? Not if he is a believing Mormon.
I have two strong and solid legs on which to stand. Being smart and successful in business doesn't qualify you for the White House. If Romney is a true believing Mormon, then he lacks the critical thinking skills and judgment which the job demands.
Why? Because Mormonism has been demonstrated by clear and convincing FACTUAL evidence to be false. basic details can be found at these three links:
http://www.bookofabraham.info/
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/testingthebookofmormon.htm
http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm
amendoza,
You mention, “Mormonism is the only cult that is attempting to disguise itself as another religion.”
I don’t know a single Mormon who actually believes this.
I’d like to recommend a book for you: A Different Jesus: the Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, by Robert Millet. The book has a forward by Richard Mouw, and is published by Eerdmans.
Another thought for those who claim they'll stay home if a Romney ticket comes to pass; Imagine the fallout from headlines such as this "Evagelicals Stay Home from Polls - Romney Loses, Hillary Wins".
If you claim to not care about politics, think again. Imagine the loss of credibility that will come as a result of this. Think of all the years of hard work by Evangelical political groups that has brought you to where you are today. All the political influence you have developed will be wiped away in one election if Evangelicals stay home. And while you might claim not to care, watch as Supreme Court justices get appointed and laws about marriage are passed and our country slips further into moral oblivion.
And if you think you can "hold yor nose" and vote for Romney think again. He will need your unqualified support to beat the Hillary machine.
Do some soul searching. Pray. Think long and hard about it. But when and if the time comes, people like me hope you'll be there with Mitt on election day. The stakes are too high.
FT - To try to claim Mitt lacks either judgment or critical thinking skills is laughable. Mitt graduated top of his class from Harvard Law and Business School simultaneously while raising children. He then lead a company that successfully helped start businesses such as Staples and turned around Domino's (household names). He turned around the nearly failed SLC Olympics and made them profitable and he lead a democratic state and turned around the budget. What part of this impressive resume says, "he lacks the judgment and critical thinking skills required of a president". Any objective observer would realize you are completely wrong. Moreover, he probably has MORE of these very skills than any candidate in decades. You don't have a leg to stand on with this argument.
AMendoza - That the LDS believe differently than Evangelical Christians is obvious and I would never claim otherwise. The LDS don't want to believe as Evangelicals do. That we believe differently than you doesn't on its own make us wrong.
I can't quite see how I 'made your point'. Your point was that no Evangelical should vote for a Mormon (by the way, it's spelled MormOn not An). I pointed out how this is a bigoted position (which it is). So how did I 'make your point’? Please explain.
AMendoza - You speak as if you have the word Christian copyrighted (or would it be trademarked). I don't care in the least if YOU consider me a Christian. I don't know you and I certainly don't follow you or worry about YOUR judgments. Christ himself is the one I am concerned about convincing. And so I'll continue to call myself what I am. A Mormon and a Christian. That's what my friends, family and neighbors think as well. Not that their judgment matters but it might be a bit telling that those who know Mormons well don't seem to have the concerns you do. Those who think ill of Mormons and consider them un-Christian are generally uneducated and Evangelical according to a survey that was reported on this very website a few weeks ago.
Thems the facts folks.
Keller is opposing Romney for all the wrong reasons. This is a link to a detailed discussion of why Romney should be opposed: http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/24282/
Basically, he lacks the judgment and critical thinking skills required of a president.
I sense such a fear about the Mormon religion. What is this great fear? Do we feel threatened by them? We like what we see and yet some of their teachings don't match what we have been taught all our lifes. If there is one God ( and I believe there is) and we are all his children then he must look at all of us and wonder at the way we treat one another. I wonder sometimes if we are moving in the direction of being great orators and philosophers more than followers of Jesus Christ. It seems that Paul was extremely concerned that the early Christians were moving in that direction. HIs letters to the Corinthians were dealing with men in the church teaching the philosophy of men mingled with scripture.
I believe that every Christian owes it to himself to humbly, meekly and sincerely ask God, the the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ what God feels about the Mormons. I believe that is probably the only reliable source. There are too many tainted views amongest the children of men to find the absolute truth. The Lord promises that if we seek with a sincere heart, with real, intent we can know the truth of all things by the power of the Holy Ghost. Lets all try humbling ourselves and praying for our own answers. Not the answers we want to hear, but the ones that come to the quiet, still, desiring, honest heart. We know that God answers prayers.I wonder what God will tell us.
ep1433: thank you for proving my point, Lets be real now there is no way you can call your self a Mormon and a Christian. they are two separate religions. thats like saying i can be a Christian and a Buddhist. You and I believe in two separate forms of God. You believe that the falther as you call him is a created being and "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM). LDS also believes that Jesus is not God (via the Trinity) as well as that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. I however (being a born again Christian) believe that God is an eternal being and he sent His son (part of the trinity) down to earth to pay the price for sin. There is no way that we can say that the two religions are the same.
This is my exact point. Mormonism is the only cult that is attempting to disguise itself as another religion.
to PreacherAz:
I to believe that a morman can be saved... if they turn from their false religion but banking on the fact that he may become saved is not wise. maybe I am approaching this all wrong, what if the person running for office was a shaman but shared our views on social issues such as abortion and Gay marriage. both Mormonism and Shaman ism are false doctrine so there is very little difference in voting for one vs. the other in terms of religion. I am not saying that you should vote for Hillary over Romney but at this point you have more options on the conservative end such as Thompson, Huckabee or McCain.
Mitt's church, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often misunderstood by Evangelical preachers . . Some accuse the Church of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion .
. http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early (First Century) Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement. Mitt's church believes in the Jesus who prayed to his Father in Heaven in the Garden of Gethsemene.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) does not believe in 4th Century creeds, but adheres to Early Christian theology more closely than other Christian denominations. Perhaps the reason Evangelical preachers promote this mis-representation is to protect their flock (and their livlihood). Bill Keller doesn't impress me as displaying Christiian values.
To amendoza
Thank you,
I do believe very strongly that God is a God of Grace and Mercy for the Lost. I don't agree totally with Bill Keller is 100% correct!
Our Lord Jesus Christ came into this wick and ungodly world to SAVE sinners, yes LDS are that. Their teaching is from the pit, I know that. But we all were lost once and need God's forgiveness and needed our eyes open. To speak as if Romney or any LDS can not be saved is false. And yes, I would vote for Romney over Hillary or any other Demo. And by the way there is not really any Replican also. We all jumped on the wagon with Bush and yes I voted 2 times. But look what he has become a total failure to what Christianity should be. I believe Romney Values for America would be good.I believe he would stand against Gays and all the devilish wickness of all such. And who know if we pray HE COULD GET SAVED AS WE. As you said I quote "a cult but become a legitamate religion." We in this country would not a lot that to happen. There are still some believers in Washington DC. And no President could never make his on "religion" law anyway. Rememeber the Constitution.
To those who say they would rather not vote than vote for a Mormon, I say perfect. Such people are obviously incapable of the demands of citizenship and we are all better off not having them cast a vote. In fact please deposit your voter ID card in the nearest trash receptacle and abstain from all feature elections.
Thankfully I think we'll find this is a minority, even among Evangelicals.
What "logic" drives some Evangelicals to proclaim their faith the best yet have such great fear of what they believe to be a flawed faith? How can that work?
Ultimately what is legitimizing the LDS faith is the fact that it always has been legitimate. Mitt or no Mitt, when people get to know the LDS, they find it self-evident that these people are Christians and nothing to fear.
More importantly, Mormons are already on your PTA's, coach your kids in soccer, police your streets, defend your nation, are mayors of your cities, etc. To those who oppose Romney's campaign, do you also oppose Mormons on all these other fronts? Certainly Mormons have influence in these areas as well. As you can see, such "logic" can create a pretty slippery slope. As a Mormon, would you oppose having me in any aspect of public life? If so would you enact laws to keep me from such roles? Perhaps we should even put tattoos on each Mormon so we can easily identify them? Then you won't even have to have a Mormon wait on you or teach your children. Where does it stop?
Those who posted here that they would never vote for someone only because he is a Mormon should be called what they are. Bigots -- pure and simple.
And Evangelicals might want to question why polls show this to be a feature especially prevalent in their faith.
Bill Keller is 100% correct!
To PreacherAz:
we as born again Christians have MUCH to be worried about. not only will mormanism be legitamized but by these evangelical leaders backing a morman we are confirming the worlds assumption and the Mormans attempt to say that they are just another form of Christianity. If this becomes the common beleif I believe there will be a mass move to mormanism and it will no longer be concidered a cult but become a legitamate religion. Normaly it would not matter if a religion was no longer considered a cult but the morman cult has already been such a powerfull force in its cult state so imagine how much faster it would grow in the world if evangelical leaders send out the message that it is a legitamate religion rather than the false doctrine ment to decieve and blind millions that it accually is. If you want to follow the thought that we should vote for whoever could beat hillary you should vote for gulianni (I do not endorse him, I think he would be just as terrible as a demicrat)
I agree with the fact that every Christian that votes for romney is responsible for every person that is decieved by Mormanism due to its ligitamization. You may have the right to vote for romney and you may know that mormanism is a cult but there are many who do not
1 Corinthians 8: 9- 13:
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.>
Woe be the one that causes souls to burn in hell all because they like the politics of a high priest in a Cult and let it outweigh the truth of the Gospel
Anthony Mendoza
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com
Yeah.. and the current very moral Evangelical ( not to mention stupid) Protestant we have in the White House now has nearly ruined this country...
Seeking Zoe:
There is a major difference between John Kennedy and Mitt Romney. Kennedy was a nominal Catholic who obviously did not live by the ideals of his church (re: adulterous relationships). Romney, on the other hand, is a Temple Mormon and high priest. He is NOT a nominal Mormon.
Bill Keller is absolutely right. Christians who support Romney have a hand in leading people to hell. As president, Romney would achieve legitimacy for his cult, thus opening it up to many seekers.
If you want a candidate who's pro-life and evangelical, support Mike Huckabee.
Everyone was spooked by John Kennedy's Catholicism until intelligence set in on them and they saw it wasn't a threat. Why would Ronmey's Mormonism be a threat if he were to be elected?
It's time to wake up and get with the program re; this presidential/religious issue. There are more things at stake here than abortion, same-sex marriage, evolutiion-vs-intelligent design etc. I want a president who can restore the integrity of the United States, get us out of this Iraq mess, do something about our open borders, make sure our food is safe to eat no matter where it comes from, make sure our drinking supply is pure, our air is fit to breathe. If he/she can do all that, how 'un'spiritual" can he/she be and what does it matter where or what place of worship is attended?
As a Preacher/Evangelist of the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ, we should think very clearly and wisely about what we face with the Presidential candidates we have before us to choose from. Although I do not agree doctrinal with the Mormon belief, I do believe that Romney has a better chance of defeating Hillary Clinton.
Saints, we better wake up and for the most part and pray. I believe that Romney will be a wise choice. Though Romney may be a Mormon, we, as born again Christians have nothing to worry about. Do we think this man would get in and teach his beliefs? I do not think so. Which would we choose? Hillary, who will change everything abut the Laws of God or Romney, who do believe in the core principles of the Law. It is all in God's hands and He raise up kings and brings down kings. I believe that our chance to keep Hillary out is to stand on the side of Romney. I believe he will do what is morally right for America. Which I believe is a better and wise choice. I would rather have someone with some Christian principles than have a "she devil" in the white house.
the issue here is not theology but philosophy, mostly political philosophy.
We "Christian" presidents like George Bush(s), Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, Jerry Ford have all promoted policies that have deviated from "Christian" principals (such as saying we all pray to the same God, which was politically wise but not theologically true).
I don't see where we are voting for a theological president but for a president who agrees, for the most part, with our philosophy about what are proper policies or improper policies. Just as I hold hands with others, regardless of their belief system, in the battle to end abortion, this does not mean I am co-opted in my beliefs.
The biggest concern, however, is that it, to some extent, legitimizes Mormonism, but in our post-modern culture, that has occred already.
So, my vote will be for the person who agrees mostly with me, which is the choice in all elections. To do otherwise, simply elects the wrong person.
Our faith needs to not be implemented in the halls of government but in the secret chambers of the heart.
I am a born-again Bible believing Christian. I would never support a mormon president. Especially one who once supported the murdering of innocent children in the womb.
CHRISTIANs, vote for RON PAUL. He is the most pro-life! www.ronpaul2008.com/issues