i believe judgement is for God. if Jesus were here will he say what ur all saying?

Do we really need Jesus to be speaking out of Harry Potter? Can we not just enjoy this book? And why are Christians "Liars" who claim to looooove H.P. books? Like we are defrauded and must be dissalusioned by satan. Why does the christian industry and market have to approve books for us first anyway? Just because Dr. Dobson says they are bad does that mean they must be? I really like Dr. Dobson but don't hold authority by everything one man says. for those of you opposed to masturbation, dr. dobson holds to it being ok. I am sold out for Christ and I think H.P. is brilliant and refreshing. I don't think masturbation is such a great idea for regular practice. Is one of us not a christian? Rowling is private about so many statements regarding the spritual nature of her books and if she did not intend to claim any religious theme then let it be and we can decide as it was meant to be done, by reading it ourselves.

gmp: "Are they really any different than the early church?"

No, but your initial statement wasn't about the Taliban, etc. It was about the Inquisition. That's all I'm referring to.

Fanatism is always dangerous, but if genuine Christians don't take a stand now against the Pink Agenda, our definition of 'normal' will soon become 'abnormal' - it will be abnormal to be heterosexual. Laws are being passed that protect the perverted, while moral values are being attacked. If the public knew the true facts of homosexual practices, they wouldn't be so tolerant. What is done behind closed doors would turn any stomach, but they want our children to be brainwashed into accepting homosexuality as normal. Political correctness is just another term for cowardice in taking a stand against 'popular' issues, and no one claiming to be Christian can go along with any of these issues that compromise christian principles. Martin Luther stood up to 'the powers that be' and freed the masses from tyrannical domination - if nothing is done soon, 'normal' people will become victims of the tyrannical domination of the Pink Agenda. They don't just want tolerance, they actually want to force their deviant lifestyles on everyone. Its time that christians in government put a stop to the Pink invasion and for once and for all call it for what it is - sexual perversion.

Persistent? Thats an interesting descriptive term. Is that how you would describe Al Qaida and the Taliban? Are they really any different than the early church? Is the Jihad against the western culture, really any different than the crusades, or the war against heresy? I think not.

gmp, when one thinks of the persecution you orignally mentioned, they don't tend to think of historial timeframes outside a particular area. I keep my eye on the ball by keeping to the context, and not assuming too broad a context for the statement. Even including your examples, however, I would still dispute the "millions" number.

Regardless, though the Church fanatics throughout history were (and are) pretty darn persistent, I actually see a much better future in general for a global interfaith community getting along.

Ok smartie, The 50-60,000 you refer to includes the roughly 250 years from about 1450-1700 in Europe. It does not include all of the inquisitions, some of which began as early as the 1000s and occurred elswhere. These inquisitions were tribunals of the church for the suppression of heresy - of which witchcraft is considered. The Spanish Inquisition alone, set up by Ferdinand and Isabella, extended to the new world, and many sources place the death toll in the americas alone as in the millions. Dont forget the crusades either, where Moors and Pagans (all of whom were suspected of whichcraft) were killed in the name of Christianity.
We can debate numbers all day, but thats not the point. Lets keep our eye on the ball.

gmp: "Your comments on witchcraft sound frightningly similar to the witch hunts of the dark ages where millions of innocents were tortured and murdered by the church on suspicion of witchcraft."

I just had to correct this one statement. Current records show that the amount was not "millions" (a number made up by Matilda Gage), but more like 50,000-60,000. Executions were primarily done by secular, NOT church courts. Most were Christians who got caught in local political fights, or healers who turned in rival healers. That's not to say that church fanatics haven't done a great deal of persecution throughout the centuries, but I want to make sure that we have our facts straight.

dannygirl,
my greatest fear is that there are many others who feel like you do. Religious fanatacism in any form is evil, be it christian, muslim, hindu, or whatever. It shows arrogance, and leads to hate and resentment of others. Many of the darkest chapters of human history were written by fanatics like yourself who justified persecution and killing in the name of god. Your comments on witchcraft sound frightningly similar to the witch hunts of the dark ages where millions of innocents were tortured and murdered by the church on suspicion of witchcraft. One would think our society would have advanced farther than that by now.

don't be so frothy and distracted by this frivolity. it's a smoke screen. the republican party has Christians running around burning up all their energy on gays and abortion while they take from the middle class and give to the super rich. people will not starve and go to hell because dumbledore is gay. but good people will suffer and go hungry in this very country while you pour all your energy into this. this is the real stuff, not a fictional wizard who isn't even identified as gay in the actual books and movies. besides which, who cares? it's comparatively nothing in the face of the issues we have to face in this wold.

Duet 18:10-14, Rev 21:822:15,
The word of God is very clear. No way is Harry potter a Allegory of any kind.
What part of Abomination does one not understand. Witch Warllock, Wizard,
Socerer, and observer of times is abhored abomonation to God. If any one
condones J.K. Rowlands as some kind of Christian, I will call you a liar like
J.K. Rowlings to your face. J.K. Rowlings is a witch. There is no debate about
Harry Potter. If someone who calls himself a Christian and thinks Harry potter
is okay because he thinks it's "good reading" and that "kids are reading again"
he is a liar too. Kids', christian kids, would be reading witchcraft. You don't
obey the word of God. Worse then that. You don't fear of Love God. Because you
promote something that the word of God called a abomination.

The southern kingdom of Israel was destroyed and sent into exile because of
Witchcraft and Idolatry. Judah was sent in a babaloynian exile because of
witchcraft and idolatry. What will happed to to us?

Gal 3:1 "Foolish Galatians who has bewitched you that you should not obey the
truth?"

U.S.A, if we execpt this abhored lie. The U.k. Canda, and Austrialia is falling
apart because of the same witchcraft and Idolitray. America is the for front
runner of Christianity in the world. WHAT WILL BE THE END?

Hmmm. Plenty of thumbs-down, but no actual dialogue. Do you see why it gets frustrating for non-Christians? There's no discussion on the perspective, "why/how/when do you feel that way?"

"Anyway, my main point is that most Christians barely understand why they are a Christian... let alone what they are saved from, saved from who, who saved them and what meditating on the Word actually is... Sorry for the rant my friend."

zenodaddy, no apology needed. I'm glad to see that some Christians are examining the problem as well. To be an effective representative, you have to understand your subject! We have many of the same problems in Wicca - too many people (pagan and not) think that Wicca is this sparkly-shiny-unicorns view of life, rather than a religion that requires work and commitment. And we get some heat from the non-pagans for it, as the happy-sparkly folks really like being in the spotlight.

The bottom line is, we're each coming from our own experience perspective. The best way to convey that is to share those experiences; speak from our hearts more than from text. People are interested in the inner stuff; the personal how/why of what another believes. Anyone literate can read the text, but it's the personal story that touchces the heart.

imho, I like to tell people that I'm public short of wearing a flashing neon sign on my head. ;) It is very much like prayer, "with a kickstart" as some say. The Divine has a big hand in all sacred things we do.

"......but I believe God created man to commune with him. He is a God of relationship and He wants to be in relationship with us. He has given each of us the choice as to whether or not we want to be in relationship with Him."

OK, for the sake of argument - why create a direct way to severe that relationship, and put it in man's path? Looking at it from a purely common sense view, there's no spiritual reason to it.

Hi, Wiccan Texan. Thanks for your openness in giving examples of what you do with Wicca. I can see the appeal. It sounds a lot like "regular" prayer, the only difference being to whom we pray.

It lools like zenodaddy took the "why Satan" question! lol! Thanks, zenodaddy. :) I've only been able to skim it, but it looks really good.

I can understand the confusion that arises when we think God's goal in creating man was to have man live in innocence and bliss in paradise of God's creation. Now, I won't pretend to know the mind of God 100%, but based on Scripture, I don't believe that is the goal. Utlimately, that will be the end result of it all, but I believe God created man to commune with him. He is a God of relationship and He wants to be in relationship with us. He has given each of us the choice as to whether or not we want to be in relationship with Him. It's a freedom that all too many of us take far too lightly.

Thanks for the interesting posts, everyone. I don't get too much time to hop on here and see what's going on, but when I do, WOW! Such food for thought. :)

What people tend to forget, or refuse to accept is that things are done for a specific reason. Take Satan for example... did God know that Satan would rebel? The answer of course is 'Yes'. Why did He create Satan if He knew that he would rebel? We do not know and are not privy to the answer either. Much like Adam and Eve. Did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? The answer, is Yes. If you recall in Genesis, God was not really all that surprised. Did Eve sin? No, it was Adam, Eve was deceived, Adam did it knowing the consequences.

Did God create a perfect creation? Yes He did. Did He know that it was not going to be perfect forever? Yes He did... if He did not then He is a liar. It is written so many times in the New Testament alone that God has foreseen and chosen who His people are going to be that in reality, there should be no wonder or discussion about it. He chooses whom He choses.

'For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. ' Romans 8:29-30 (NASB95)

You see, for some reason, there is a process in which God's people must undergo and God's creation to undergo before the 'Perfect' Creation can be Created. What business does the clay have to ask the maker what it is being shaped to be? No it does not.

For some reason we have this image of God that is not biblical. We have this image that God is this great Pansy in the sky that could be the farthest thing from the truth. God lives and dwells outside of our Universe, He controls the Universe from the outside... His power is so great that if He for one moment lost His train of thought, none of this universe would exist.

So the next time we wonder why God chose to do something that is incomprehensible to you... remember this... He controls all, and we do not.

Addendum: From the pagan perspective, the main beef I hear from new pagans is, "no one even attempted to answer the harder questions." They all just got "I'l pray for you." By jumping ship, you're simply creating the situation to drive folks further away.

From my personal experience, Christianity is a fine faith when followed properly. It certainly started me on a good foundation. However, more and more I see disillusioned young people who wanted to give it a chance, but turned elsewhere due to the reasons above.

I know it seems strange to have a Wiccan priestess tell you what is not working in witnessing for Jesus, but I have no fear of someone coming to Jesus if that is their calling. But I hate to see people continuing to flounder because of the waffling I see from "prayer warriors" who refuse to delve into the deeper issues.

"Whether you don't believe me Wiccan or Citizen is again your decision."

I believe entirely that you've connected with God. But you only see that others are happy connecting in ways that are not yours. That, and avoiding questions under the premise of "praying for healing of hearts," is YOUR decision.

Citizen and Wiccan, you believe what you choose to about God. I realize after praying that you do not want to know God, you have set up your own belief system and if that works for you good. I am not going to be responding on this site any longer. I didn't want to leave without saying goodbye and I do pray that one day you will see the truth about God and that He will heal your hearts of the anger, confusion and misunderstanding you have about Him.
With God's help, I am getting out of the computer world and getting out in the streets to help others to know the love of God, that truly changed my heart and life.
I cannot make anyone believe what I believe, but I pray that others who see what Jesus has done in me, will see the evidence of my life to know that GOD is real, that HE is God, that I am a witness to that fact. Whether you don't believe me Wiccan or Citizen is again your decision.
This world will know soon enough the truth of God's Word, In His Love and Peace, Annie

"man decided to do what he wanted instead of the will of God..."

But God PUT that temptation into man's path. If He hadn't, man would have remained innocent and in bliss. What was the point?