A Christian author has come to the defense of Joel Osteen against critics who say the megapastor's messages are “theology lite” and void of the central Christian message of the cross.
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Osteen Resonates in Society where Damnation Messages Don't
By
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, Oct. 19 2007 04:03 PM EDT
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I attend a megachurch in the Carolinas. It is a church for those who have been 'burned' at other churches. These folks aren't ready for solid food. They are wounded. There is a problem with the basic understanding of the gospel and our responsibility to it. Truth be known that is the case in most churches mega or not.
The mega church model like Saddleback is to bring people into a ministry where they can overcome the wounds and begin understanding the gospel. The disciples were with Jesus for 3 years and they didn't 'get it' most of the time. Many theologians think such a high level of understanding is required to be sound doctrine. Jesus didn't. He said Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't take 100 pounds of theology books to understand that.
As for money, when you're living off 10% of your income and giving the other 90% to the ministry then you will have some room to throw stones......
Guys - Osteen gives you an opportunity to accept Jesus into your heart at the end of every program. He doesn't end the service without that. How many others have the opportunity to do that across national TV. People who aren't saved but on the border who like osteen are hearing that prayer over and over. What's that part in the Bible from Paul where he says one follows Paul and one follows Apollos but in all ways Christ is being preached..?? Hello!
I do have a problem with Joel Osteen saying on CNN that Jesus is not the only way to heaven and that hindus may have another way..that is NOT Biblical..he SHOULD retract that statement and make his postions clear..
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one of osteens critics is Rick Warren. he disagrees with the message of health & wealth. Didn't Rick Warren take 10% of the proceeds of his book 'Purpose driven life' that sold millions. so let's say his book sold 1,000,000 x $8.00. that is $8 million & 10% of it is $800,000.
Jesus did not charge the people a fee when he healed the sick & preached the gospel. OH, what a hypocrite Rick Warren is!
RBB, I apologize if I came across as judgmental. Actually I was just stating my view...which is neither right nor wrong. No judgment intended. At least we agree on the fact that God does deserve all the Glory, Honor and Praise. After all He created the universe! :)
sbeitzel57 - Question... what is "resonating with our Lord Jesus Christ"?
Boy, I'm dismayed to read so many negative comments on the manner Joel reaches out to us so we can resonate with our Lord, Jesus Christ. But, therein lies the crux. If he doesn't preach fire and brimstone then for those of you who believe this is the only way to heaven, all I can say is don't listen to him and don't judge him or those of us who do enjoy hearing the message Joel speaks of. I don't know about you, but today's society is already filled with so much insincerity, to me Joel is like a breath of fresh air and quite intuitive. I pray for all you naysayers that God will continue to inspire Joel to preach his word in a way that a lot of us can truly relate to and you will find in your hearts to see his message of hope and love that God has for us.
El Sali - I give God all the glory if this person was healed of anything, and I'm not judging him. I'm commenting on the fact that God has been reduced to a self help mechanism by those who fail to comprehend the gravity and magnitude of the Sovereign God of the universe. I don't understand how anyone can read the scriptures, and accept Christ, and still think of God in such small and earthly terms.
You mistake zeal for the Living God, and wanting to see Him worshipped and recognized for who He is, for judgment of a fellow Christian. If anything, I'm hoping that my brother will come to a better understanding of the magnitude of the God he worships. Do you realize that you have judged me by the way, and falsely.
Well Jesus did heal the blind; he also said 'because of your faith you are healed'. This person that wrote the comment before, well it looks as though he has faith! So what if it was because of the fact that he couldn't afford all the costs for pills and a mental doctor anymore... then so be it. What matters is his faith in Christ. Who are we to judge how God changed him or the reasons for coming to faith in Christ Jesus? Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
"it's working it's cheaper then being on pills and seeing a mental doctor."
This may be the most telling thing that's been posted. God as self help. The Sovereign God of the Universe and He's not Savior, Redeemer, King, Almighty ...Praise His Holy Name.......He's cheaper than being on pills and seeing a mental doctor!
I am so Glad Joel Osteen has been brought forth at this time, In my view alot of churches have failed reaching the loss.The holy spirit within Joel has spoken life to me and my family and when I say life I mean literaly!! I wish we had a church like this in florida.I see the love of God in this man and he cares for humanity. You go Joel, keep preaching life to our dry bones it's working it's cheaper then being on pills and seeing a mental doctor.
Hello, I'd like to say that I'm a believer as of Feb. 2005. And that watching Joel and reading his book has taken my relationship with Jesus exponentially higher! The Lord has taken me places I've never even dreamed of. I believe that God has used Joel to speak insight and hope and wisdom into my life and even the message of Jesus. God bless us and keep us!
kstimp - I went to JoelOsteen.com as you suggested, and this is what the "what we believe" section says.....
"The entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.
In one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.
Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.
Water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
In the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.
Every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God’s Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.
As children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us"
As far as I can see the problem with this is four fold. First there is no mention of the fact that we are sinners, and part of receiving forgiveness and salvation is in repenting of our sin.
Second there is no mention of the fact that Jesus is alone the way to salvation.
Thirdly there is no mention that those that reject Christ will go to hell.'
Lastly the Bible passage about being more than conquerors, and our overcoming are about overcoming death and conquering sin, and the devil, through the sacrifice of Christ. It isn't about getting rewards and earthly perks here in this life.
I just made it a point to go to my church's website and look and see if these things are mentioned. They are not. So the real question becomes....As someone who reads his books, and listens to him regularly, do you think that this is covered but simply not put down here?
The popularity behind many of the movements here discuss comes from a message that promotes "doing your own thing" and do not offend or make people feel bad. It is not about doing our own thing it is about Jesus Christ and doing what He Thinks, which is clearly stated in the Bible. And, as to wether we should be tolerant, my son is a teenager and would like me to be tolorent and see things his way even when I as an experience adult know that it is wrong. Jesus was not always tolererant as some would like us to beleive, and he comdemn those that where using His Father's house as a place to get rich. The greatest motivational speaker was Jesus Christ and He changed peoples life not by having mega meeting but by dyeing on the cross. We can not hide or comform behind a feel good, self centered message; there is a price to pay and a sacrifice to make if you we going to CONVERT people from darkness to the Light, Jesus Christ.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1
Excerpt taken from a commentary by Roger Oakland named The Inclusive Gospel from www.understandthetimes.org
".............The new evangelization program being promoted by the emerging church, while it may be in the name of Christ, is antichrist. A formula has been established to provide a bridge that has the potential to unite all religious beliefs in the name of Christ, by circumventing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
In the future we will see all faiths join together based on a common mystical experience accompanied by “lying signs and wonders”. The apostasy the Bible warned would be apparent in the Last Days is now fully underway. Only those who hold firm to God’s Word will be protected and delivered. This remnant of faithful believers will be viewed as old-fashioned narrow-minded holdouts who are a hindrance to the establishment of the “kingdom.” As Paul wrote to Timothy, in the Last Days:
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. [15]"
[15] 2 Timothy 3: 12-13
Dearest Inlovewithhim,
For your information... I know the story of the cross and who Jesus Christ is and if you went to JoelOsteen.com and went to the section called "what we believe" you will see that they do know the same story.
If you read his book you will see many scriptures to why he believes what he believes.
and how can you call yourself a Christian if you are the one judging people.. notice in the bible it says not to judge. You can't go around telling someone they are not a Christian just because they don't preach about the cross everyday. The WAY to heaven is to believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, and to believe in him, and never reject him.
'it is this hateful spirit among christians that turns people off mostly.'
No, it is the ignorant Christian that turns most people off along those who only shout REPENT or those who quote Scripture and then completely use it out of context. Those are the ones who turn everyone off... along with those who claim to be a Christian, yet refuse to use the name of Jesus Christ, like Joel here.
Dear Kstimp,
I would love to share the message of the cross with you if you'd like to hear it. Its a beautiful LOVE story and its the TRUTH
Its not TRUTH if you're leaving the MOST important message out....the message of the cross. There's only ONE WAY to Heaven and if you don't know it, you ain't getting there. I know someone who's been going to Lakewood religiously for the past two years and she still doesn't know she's not a Christian. WHY? She's never heard the message of the cross from her pastor.
Lots of people believe they are a Christian just because they know who God is, but thats not what makes you a Christian. Everyone knows who God is, even Satan.
I would like to say that I highly disagree with most of the people writing comments.. I personally LOVE hearing what Joel Osteen has to say, and have been tuned into him for a few years now.. I have his book, and read it in one day because I couldn't put it down.
I watched the 60 minutes program, and I was sadened at the way they were putting Joel down, he shouldn't have to defend himself for trying to give people hope and encouragement to be better individuals and better christians. Joel believes what he believes and it is all TRUTH whether you like to admit it or not... sometimes that's all people have is HOPE you can't take that away.
I support Joel and Victoria 100% and can't wait to read his new book
Per the article:
Although Osteen says he believes in hell and the afterlife, he doesn't preach "fire and brimstone" and his messages often leave out the traditional Christian teachings of sacrifice, the cross of Jesus Christ, and the word "sinners."
If you leave the message of the cross of Christ, how then will anyone know the ONE WAY to get to Heaven. Our job as Christians is to bring others to CHRIST, not to make them "feel good" about their current lifestyle. That means you may have to say something that some people may not like to hear. True LOVE for mankind is telling mankind the TRUTH. Without the truth they can't really make a decision about thier destiny now can they? NOPE. Someone else is making it for them. Think about it.
There once was a man who walked this earth and spoke a message of not only love but TRUTH. People responded. He changed lives. He brought about the biggest revival in the world. His name was Jesus. There was another man, alot like Jesus, who had the SAME message of LOVE and TRUTH. People responded. He changed lives. And he brought about the biggest revival in the world. His name was Billy Graham. Its time for another one! People need LOVE and TRUTH!
Superman, I say this as tactfully, and as lovingly as I can, but do you sincerely think that all natural disasters are strictly because of man's mismanagement of the worlds resources? Don't you think that the God of Creation, the God of the Book of Revelation, and the God of the World Wide Flood in Genesis which will judge all of mankind in the last days because of their obstinate rebellion and continual rejection of His Son is not Sovereign? Read the Bible in context, and then comment on it. The post modern liberal Emergent church, and it's seeker sensitive counterparts want people to believe that if we all save the environment, and save the whales, the events of the Book of Revelation will not happen, and we can actually prevent it from happening. A similar social gospel which claims that we should make the world a better place, and usher in peace prior to Jesus' second coming; it has been adopted by Rick Warren, and has caused whole splits in the Southern Baptist Convention, because he has gone down the Purpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan agenda, which by the way is a false doctrine my friend. These movements which align themselves with Bono from U2 and the whole COEXIST crowd have more in common with humanism, one world religeon, and the new age than what the Bible says will transpire. The problem today is that we have so many "Bible teachers" who are more motivational speakers than true shepherd's of the flock of God. No wonder the Body of Christ is split. The Bible talks of a great falling away in the end times. Men will naturally gravitate towards what their "itching ears" want to hear. What more itching do you need than what you hear on TBN, and the like: "find success", "you are the controller of your own destiny" "God will prosper you if you just have faith [and send me your money]". They take Scripture outr of context to suit their own desires, and fleece the flock of God for their own matierial gain. I have not studied Joel Olsteen much, becuase the times I have watched him, he appeared to preach a watered-down social gospel, but I will tell you, OPEN YOUR EYES and STUDY the WORD IN CONTEXT.
people who dont stand up to represent Jesus themselves coming forward to criticize those who do. why criticize? do your own thing and lets see how you will fare. it is this hateful spirit among christians that turns people off mostly. it is obvious to see that pastor osteen has stayed true to his calling and jealousy and envy is a bye product of success. Jesus never condenmed people who were seeking, He only condenmed those who were "fat": full of themselves and their antagonistic theology. by the way, natural disasters are a result of mankind's mismanagement of the earth and its resources. God takes no pleasure in seeing people suffer. the scriptures say," He is light, and in Him is no darkness at all". the power of choice we have is responsible for our outcomes. chose to love, chose tolerance, chose to speak the truth in love. stop being hateful in the name of God, you are on your own
27 times God is mentioned and 0 times is Jesus ever mentioned. I think this speaks volumes on its own without having to read through the self-help 'all about ME' sermon that Joel is spewing.
"... the wrath of God is revealed..."
http://poleblog.polemos.net/2007/10/wrath-of-god-is-revealed.html
The video and transcript of the interview with Joel and Victoria Osteen are here:
Joel & Victoria Osteen on Finding Faith and Dealing with Calif. Wildfires
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305002,00.html
There is so much error in what these two people say in there it is not funny. They are deceived and are deceiving millions of others. Imo, they are wolves in sheep's clothing. It is tragic that America is promoting these two false teachers. The news media love them because they do not preach the "true-truth." Joel and Victoria Osteen are obscuring the full-orbed gospel. Their gospel message is a man centered, man focused gospel which is no gospel at all. Joel and Victoria do not give God all the glory alone. Joel and Victoria Osteen's faith is in their own faith rather than all faith in God.
God help America.
"Has anyone seen the FOX news interview - more fluff - and on top of that Joel Osteen's wife is not sure if God is responsible for Natural Disasters."
Talking about natural disasters, has anyone seen this yet? >>>
What Does God Have To Do With Disaster?
"So, what do you think of when a major natural disaster strikes, when thousands are killed, homes destroyed, and crime and looting run rampant. What about when epidemics of deadly disease strike? What do you say to people who ask you, "What kind of a god would do such a thing?". What do you say to people who ask such things of you? Do you believe that God is behind such things or do you believe that these things are somehow happening outside the will of God? Do you believe that God simply allows these things to happen or do you believe there's more to it than that? If you were to ask a Christian from centuries ago these questions, you'd probably get a different answer than you would from today's Christians. So who is right?"
Continued here:
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.813
SolaScriptura,
is there a link to that Fox news interview clip on the Net? Thanks.
JFORD,
The only reason why I was asking why you were shouting is because you were typing in all caps. No worries though my friend!
Has anyone seen the FOX news interview - more fluff - and on top of that Joel Osteen's wife is not sure if God is responsible for Natural Disasters - Haha guess God's not sovereign - Guess the flood in Genesis 6 was convenient for God then (yeah right).
That is a great article, thanks for posting it. It's true.....even when you know something is wrong biblically, you hesitate to say it these days.
I grew up in a church that interpreted scripture "the red fire engine" way..... Won't get fooled again.
We as Christians have a "right and a obligation" to critique Joel Osteen's false teachings and warn others of what he is doing. Joel Osteen needs to seriously repent of the sin of concealing more than half of the truth. Those who follow Joel Osteen need to study their Bibles for their very lives, their eternal lives even, their eternal destinies hangs upon it. If we truly love Joel Osteen, we will pray for him, pray that God opens his eyes to what he really is doing wrong, and if we get the opportunity, warn him to flee the wrath of God that is coming.
TO JUDGE OR NOT TO JUDGE:
THE RIGHTS AND WRONGS OF BIBLICAL DISCERNMENT
by G. Richard Fisher
"It seems clear, since Jesus Himself said, “Judge not,” (Matthew 7:1), that we cannot “judge.” At first glance it appears that Jesus not only forbids judging others, but that He catches Himself in a glaring contradiction.
Verse 1 seems obvious, “Judge not,” yet in verses 6, 15-16, we are to judge “swine,” “dogs,” and the “fruit” of false apostles. How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? Do we judge or not?
Churches have split along lines of those who wish to make judgments and those who say we cannot. One side accuses the other of being legalistic and loveless while the other side is called liberal and spineless.
Rooting out the truth on this subject is essential and a thorough search will reveal that there are different kinds of judgment taught in Scripture. One form we are commanded to do; the other we are forbidden to do. Both sides could be right and wrong depending on what they are talking about. One could not read Matthew 18:16-18 seriously and conclude that we never judge anything. In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul takes the people of God to task for not judging the right things the right way.
One of the biggest issues in the Church is how we arrive at truth. We have churches that think frenzied laughter is a way to worship God, while other churches conduct services that sound like a barnyard. Our land is dotted with Word-Faith proponents that see God as the great vending machine in the sky. All of the groups in this confusing mix say they are preaching the truth and being led by the Spirit.
It is also obvious that some arrive at truth in the same fashion as the poem, “Why Are Fire Engines Red?”
They have four wheels and eight men
four plus eight is twelve
twelve inches make a ruler
a ruler is Queen Elizabeth
Queen Elizabeth sails the seven seas
the seven seas have fish
the fish have fins
The Finns hate the Russians
the Russians are red
Fire engines are always rushin’
So they’re red.
Some groups handle the Bible in much the same way.
Let’s consider four major points to help us unravel the question: When to judge and when not to judge?"
Continued here:
http://www.pfo.org/notjudge.htm
"To the Christian “critics”, while I know that your intentions are in defense of the kingdom, not one of us has a right to point an accusing finger at an anointed one of God. 1 Sam 24: 6&9 David would not harm Saul because regardless of the latter’s falling out of God’s favor, the fact that God had anointed him made him untouchable."
You have taken the Scriptures completely out of context.
The Untouchables
by Hank Hanegraaff
"During His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ exhorted His followers not to judge self-righteously or hypocritically. Is this necessarily what Christians do when they question the teachings of God's "anointed" preachers and evangelists? Many teachers who claim such anointing would say so, and many more of their followers commonly reply to all manner of criticism: "Touch not God's anointed."
Some of these teachers add that such actions carry literally grave consequences. Prominent "faith" teacher Kenneth Copeland affirmed in his taped message, "Why All Are Not Healed": "There are people attempting to sit in judgment right today over the ministry that I'm responsible for, and the ministry that Kenneth E. Hagin is responsible for....Several people that I know had criticized and called that faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of 'em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there's more than one of them got cancer."
In addition to certain "word-faith" teachers, such sentiments may be found among various groups involved with shepherding and other forms of authoritarian rule (from diverse "five-fold" ministries to a host of large and small "fringe churches"). The leaders of these groups are commonly regarded as having a unique gift and calling that entitles them to unconditional authority. To dispute any of their words or deeds is not distinguished from questioning God Himself.
Advocates of such authority assume that Scripture supports their view. Their key biblical proof text is Psalm 105:15: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm" (KJV). But a close examination of this passage reveals that it has nothing to do with challenging the teachings of church leaders."
Continued here:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Bible_Answer_Man/Article.asp?article_id=129
No, Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. Joel needs to tell the WHOLE story not just what he likes to talk about - what sells his books.
ZENODADDY!.. WHY WOULD YOU TAKE IT AS IM SHOUTING, NOT AT ALL. YOU HAVE A GREAT DAY!...
Dear Brother Osteen! I can only hope that someway, somehow this open letter gets through to you amidst what I am sure is thousands of mails you get everyday. I caught a snippet of your interview with Larry King and have read comments from “critics” and supporters; I would like to both encourage you for the good work you are doing because God has indeed anointed you as his prophet BUT at the same time share some concerns I have about your stance on certain issues that are 100% contrary to the will of God – issues such as homosexuality.
To the Christian “critics”, while I know that your intentions are in defense of the kingdom, not one of us has a right to point an accusing finger at an anointed one of God. 1 Sam 24: 6&9 David would not harm Saul because regardless of the latter’s falling out of God’s favor, the fact that God had anointed him made him untouchable. Jeroboam’s hand withered when he pointed at and commanded the arrest of another man of God in the book of Kings. There are numerous examples in the bible – God has a special relationship with His anointed, whether they are walking in His way or not. So let us stop “criticisms” against any man of God; he will settle his account privately with God. Pastor Osteen, my words of encouragement are that you watch yourself to continually walk in the PERFECT will of God. Our Lord is a God of details and not of confusion. Millions of people watch and listen to your words as a man of God (Matt 5:14 “You are the light of the world.”). So when you don’t explicitly denounce that which the Lord has denounced, those in sin feel good, those looking for answers in Christ get confused and those of us who are striving to grow in Christ become “critics” – a sin against the man of God and God himself. Our Lord God is too Holy and cannot abide sin. He destroyed Sodom & Gomorah and 99% of the tribe of Benjamin because of their perverteous ways. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. He does not conform to humanity for His ways are far above our ways, as heaven is far from earth and His thoughts far greater than our thoughts. He will not bring Himself down to our level. So, if the world today says homosexuality is permitted, the Lord God has no qualms about wiping out the whole world if he cannot find a righteous one that COMPLETELY walks in His will. So stand firm and be strong – PLEASE PREACH IT LIKE IT IS – SCRIPTURALLY & UNDILUTED! Saul lost it because he feared persecution of man rather than of God (1 Sam 15:24). My prayer is that the Lord God will give you the grace to stand firm in HIS WORD. When Larry King asked you about your stance on homosexuality for instance, I would have loved it if you’d come out clearly to denounce it! God loves us all, but He WILL NOT compromise Himself nor make Himself a liar for our sakes. With all the calamity going on all around us today, we Christians need to stand up and be counted. NO MORE COMPROMISE!Deut 10:12
JFORD,
Why are you shouting?
ITS A SHAME HOW WE AS PEOPLE SPEND ALOT OF TIME JUDGEING OTHERS AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON OURSELVES. WHETHER JOEL IS SPEAKING ON DAMNATION AND HELL OR BEING POSITIVE PEOPLE WILL NEVER BE HAPPY WITH WHAT HE IS DOING, AND WILL ALWAYS FIND SOMETHING NEGATIVE TO SAY. PREACHERS AND MINISTERS PREACH ON DIFFERENT THINGS AND HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES. ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE STUCK ON THE TRADITIONAL WAY OF HOW YOU THE WORD OF GOD SHOULD BE PREACHED AND TEACHED DONT EVEN APPLY IT TO THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE THEMSELVES.. SO WHY EVEN HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY. DENOMINATIONS WERE CREATED BY MAN AND A CHRISTIAN IS A CHRISTIAN , AN INDIVIUAL WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED TO SAVE US FROM OUR SINS. JOEL DOESNT HAVE TO PREACH HELL AND DAMNATION BECAUSE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE MUCH TO SAY SHOULD KNOW BETTER ANYWAY. GET IN THE WORD (BIBLE) FOR YOURSELF AND LEARN/APPLY WHAT IS EXPECTED OF YOU, DONT BE MAD AT JOEL FOR BEING HAPPY AND GOD BLESSING HIM. BECAUSE IF YOU SEEK WHAT HE'S SEEKING YOU TO WILL BE AT PEACE AND HAPPY.
For those of you who don't believe that we should be watching out for motivational speaking/social gospel with an emergent friendly theme, please check out who Willow Creek has invited to speak. Here's the link: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?cat=19. We need to preach sound doctrine in our churches; not psychobabble meant to tickle the ears of men.
Hey, RBB, don't be knockin' feel good, self-help, man-discovered good news! It's actually quite effective and healing, dontcha know?
treelucas-
"We all should Thank God for the impact that all True Pastors have in our society."
Amen. They would be the ones that preach the actual gospel of Christ.
"they handed Jesus over because of envy."
Wow now there is a total misuse of a scripture. No one is complaining because Joel's making money from his book or his church, they are wanting him to preach the gospel and not a feel good, self help, manmade gospel.
I am amazed that a Pastor is yet the target of other Christians - in 2007!. The American Church had better repent of its deep-rooted sin, namely the sin of ENVY!
We read in Matthew 27:18b that "they handed Jesus over because of envy."
We all should Thank God for the impact that all True Pastors have in our society. Again in the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7, Verse 1 warns of the danger of judging another of God's Prized Creations: Mankind. IF one judges, he or she stands qualified to be judged also. Let us examine ourselves in order to partake of the Holy Communion in the proper manner (and on a regular basis - in an effort to remain pure). 1 Cor. Chapter 11 warns of the consequences that pertain to partaking of the Lord's Body and Blood in a manner unworthy - sickness and death are the possible results!
Saints, please ask for God's mercy and let us all press for the prize of the High Call of God in Christ. It appears to me that Pastor Osteen has found the perfect will of God for his life - I rejoice with him in his success that is promised if we keep our mind and heart fixed on The Living Word - Jesus, The King of the Jews (Joshua 1:8b). A true disciple is effective, inspirational, powerful, and will win many souls for the King - that is what we must do. God Bless all of you.
Everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father, loves his child as well. This is how we will know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out His Commands (1 John 5:1-2). Lastly, His Comands aren't burdensome.
All of God's messengers through the ages have demonstrated an unusual annointing in their day. Pastors- Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, Greg Laurie, and many others have found their purpose in life by the Amazing Grace of God! Let us join the number who "Take Up His Cross and Follow Jesus!" Please forgive me if I've mispelled anyone's name.
All Praises to God and Comfort in the Holy Ghost. Amen
Hmmm...so Billy Graham, who has preached the same message of hell and repentance for over 40 years, and led thousands to Jesus Christ, as has Greg Laurie and Franklin, has been giving the wrong message?.
Here's an observable fact: human nature is to flock where your ears get tickled the most. And it looks like brother Joel is tickling a lot of ears.
And for the record, Christ didn't soften his message, He simply new how to effectively present it that left the hearer without rebuttal.
Matthew 11:28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Jesus did not shy away from the consequences of an unrepentant heart...but his chief message is of peace and joy. Of feeling good, and as Paul said, "accomplish all things through Christ who strengthens ME"
Preach on, Brother Joel. And keep your eyes on Jesus, who came "not to condemn the world but to save the world." .
Prophet: Can you support your comments with Scripture and even better Scripture in its proper context
It's great to have Ingrid back. I just discovered she was up and running again this morning.
A Christian author has come to the defense of Joel Osteen against critics who say the megapastor's messages are “theology lite” and void of the central Christian message of the cross.
"Critics say Osteen lacks biblical references in his books and claim that he preaches prosperity gospel," said Richard Young, author of The Rise of Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen. "However, I found nearly 130 scriptural references in 'Become a Better You,' Osteen's newest book."
Author Sends Out Press Release Defense of Osteen
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=28
"Mr. Young, Osteen’s using 130 Scriptures doesn’t mean a thing when it comes to biblical orthodoxy. Satan’s greatest successes have involved the rise of leaders who copiously quote the Scriptures to make their own heretical points. Scripture is not to be treated as a source for proof texts for false teaching. Osteen has no biblical defense for his ‘best life now’, ‘God wants you to be a success’ message. In fact, Osteen’s message runs counter to Christ’s clear command that we deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him. There is no personal cross in Osteen’s message to the world, only a better, more effective ME. He has people raise a Bible over their heads at the start of his messages to assure everyone that he believes the Word of God. Then he proceeds to completely contradict the very Word he claims to follow. We are here on this planet for God’s glory, not our own. God does not want us on a journey of deeper “self-discovery” as Osteen claims in his new book. He wants us to go deeper and deeper into the knowledge of His Son, Jesus Christ. We are to decrease and Christ must increase in our lives. This biblical framework runs counter to everything that Osteen represents. Your press release only confirms in my mind, Mr. Young, that Joel Osteen needs to repent of his false teaching and his man-centered gospel and stop misleading the millions of people who follow his ministry. He is a false teacher and the consequences are eternal."
Full article here:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=28
There's a big difference between condemning, and saying that someone isn't preaching the whole gospel, or putting in things that are not there, or preaching something that is in opposition to what the Bible says to do.
How can preaching something unbiblical be part of what we are supposed to do?
Jesus will separate His sheep from the goats, just as the LORD promised through His prophet Ezekiel--He will do it Himself. Foolish goats will eat anything. The message from false teachers such as this should reveal the idols set up in the hearts of those who would desire God. This would bring repentance in the truly reborn. The rest are chaff, tares, fruitless vines for the fire. "Little children, keep yourselves from idols."
God puts His body together however he feels. We all have differing ministries, but it's part of a bigger picture and a bigger body. The hand cannot say to the feet "I have no need of you", just because it's purpose/function is different. What if every preacher/evangelist preached nothing but hellfire and brimstone and the judgment of God? We would have empty churches. Some are called to preach holiness, some are called to preach healing, some are called to preach prosperity....but put it all together and you have a very good picture of who God is. They need to quit condeming, and start looking at themselves and how (or if) they are advancing the kingdom of God the way God has asked them.
www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com
Joel Osteen's new book - Your best life now - made me think of this verse - Mark 8:36 What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
Sounds to me like Jesus was the original fire and brimstone preacher - He spoke on Hell more than any one else
His message didn't resonate with society - heck they crucified him for it
Whether something "does something for us" is not the question - the question is whether or not what is being said is found in Scripture
Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Notice in this verse it doesn't ask how the Bereans felt about the ministry - it says they searched the Scriptures
Honestly anyone who argues without Scriptural support is using anecdotal evidence which is invalid because when we talk about God we can only do so based on His direct Revelation to us.
I strongly suspect that those who like Osteen are either not born again because of the fact that in we read this: 1 Corinthians 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: - and those who do not have a problem with the fact that Osteen's message is designed to palatable to the unsaved. Or they are victims of very poor teaching.
We cannot look to the world for approval or for the world to tell us what is good - the darkness hates the light.
kpercy07 -
I have studied church history, except for the scandals. Oh and I didn't say that doctrinal issues hadn't been divisive, I said that it hadn't stopped things getting accomplished such as spreading the gospel all over the globe. It was in answer to your claim, that until we all agreed on everything including ignoring when someone was teaching falsehood, that nothing would get done. Next time maybe you could read more carefully, and perhaps remember what you yourself have written.
I find it a little silly that you think I'm some sort of "doctrine cop" just because I see Joel as someone who doesn't preach the gospel. Isn't this a website that presents the news? Isn't posting comments encouraged? Isn't saying what we think what we are supposed to do? Do you think that the, what did you call them..."secular, atheistic, anti-God media" is out trolling Christian websites looking for what a grandmother from New Jersey, is saying about Joel Osteen, and that they are going to use it as some sort of ammo against Christians?
I'd be interested in where in the Bible you feel there is any proof for the idea that we should not be standing up for what is right. I must have missed the passages that taught us to ignore those that are teaching falsehood, for the sake of everyone voting and buying the same way, or so that the media won't hate us. By the way the secular media is supposed to hate us....so are those who belong to the world. It's when you are loved by the media, and the world, that the Bible says it's a warning signal.
I have another question. You say that you have a concern that the media is "secular, atheistic and Anti-God". How is it then that they seem to love Joel, and other mega pastors like him so much?
kpercy07, are you using the derogatory term "doctrine cops" to silence any critiques of Joel Osteen's false teachings and make Christians feel guilty or condemned or something? Are you using the term "doctrine cops" in the same manner as John Eldredge does in his book "Wild at Heart" to quench and squash dissent?" Joel Osteen proclaims his false teachings publicly, Christians can publically oppose and expose his false teachings. Joel Osteen goes to the Bible to support his own ideas and messages rather than going to the Bible to preach and proclaim God's message.
Doctrinal Nazis and Other Problems
"Eldredge has a method for dealing with those who would disagree with him by standing on Biblical Truth – people he calls “Doctrine Police” and “Doctrinal Nazis.” In the Wild at Heart Facilitator’s Guide for “facilitators” of his workshops, Eldredge recommends a psychological technique of manipulation used to control and direct the outcome of small group discussions. By the use of marginalization and isolation, he instructs facilitators on how to “shut down the doctrine cop” (page 4). Again on page 5, he warns the facilitator to watch out for the “…doctrine Nazi – a guy who’s got some theological ax to grind.” Here again Eldredge instructs the facilitator to dismiss and evade any doctrinal issues being made and to marginalize and isolate the man who brings them to the group’s attention.
“Doctrinal Nazis” and “doctrine cops”, as Eldredge calls them, must be silenced because Eldredge’s teachings will not stand up to the light of Scriptural Truth. If readers and seminar attendees are to accept Eldredge’s worldly indoctrination, they must turn away from sound biblical teaching and from the illumination of the Holy Spirit."
http://www.gforceministry.com/book_review%20wild%20at%20heart%202.htm
"I Believe in Jesus, Not Doctrine"
Quoting Martyn Lloyd-Jones . . .
"You cannot separate what a man believes from what he is. For this reason doctrine is vitally important. Certain people say ignorantly, "I do not believe in doctrine; I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; I am saved, I am a Christian, and nothing else matters". To speak in that way is to court disaster, and for this reason, the New Testament itself warns us against this very danger. We are to guard ourselves against being "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine", for if your doctrine goes astray your life will soon suffer as well.
So it behoves us to study the doctrines in order that we may safeguard ourselves against certain erroneous and heretical teachings that are as rife and as common in the world today as they were in the days of the early Church."
Continued here, including a video message:
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.446
Do you follow true of false doctrine?
If you study your Church history, you would see that the single most divisive force in the history of the Church is doctrinal strife. To respectfully disagree with someone's doctrine is a healthy thing. Self-appointed "doctrine cops" like you crush our ability to congregate, act, move, buy, and vote like a homogeneous *Body* because we spend our time attacking each other over doctrine and airing that laundry publicly. Remember Swaggart/Bakker? Remember Hanegraaf/Hinn? The *secular, atheistic, anti-God* media is going to Christians for fodder to disparage other Christians, and the Doctrine cops are giving them ammunition. That's just great, RBB and the gang. I hope you all feel really good about that. Keep your so-called "purity." You are helping no one.
A few Bible verses will convey the message of Osteen's appeal and the falsehood he spreads:
-- For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Tim. 4:3
-- People who will not endure sound doctrine are turning their ears away from the truth and willfully giving themselves over to fables or lies: and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables 2 Tim. 4:4
-- Mat 7:15, 20-23 (NIV) "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves... Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers!'"
kpercy07 - First let me say that I'm glad you put the pharisaical comment at the end. It's become such a ridiculous cliché that once someone uses it I generally stop reading the message.
The point is that what is meaningful for your family, while it might be something wonderful, and I feel wonderful for you if your mother has come to Christ, isn't what's important in this discussion. And if you think that Christendom will not accomplish anything until there is doctrinal accord you really have to read your Bible, not to mention world and Church history for the last 2000 years. From the very beginning there have been those who have fudged on what the gospel was, whether out of actual belief, or want of personal power or gain. There have also been those who stood up for what was Biblically correct, and much has been accomplished in that time.
I never suggested that Joel was "no good." I am saying that he is preaching something that is not the gospel of Christ unless he includes the parts that he admits himself that he has left out. To decide if he is good or bad is up to God.
By the way calling people names isn't a very Christian thing to do.
Try this, and see if it doesn't offer a healthy perspective, particularly the latter part of it ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwbps9k5Dj0
“Become a Better You” by Joel Osteen
(book review)
http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/become-a-better-you-by-joel-osteen.php
Related Resources for Dr. Horton's Appearance on CBS's 60 Minutes
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/osteenpage.htm
<A HREF="http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/become-a-better-you-by-joel-osteen.php">“Become a Better You” by Joel Osteen</A>
book review
Driscoll Explains How Un-Christian Osteen's Doctrines Are
"I appreciate Scott's recent reviews of Joel Osteen's new book. I have read several reviews from others that seemed to be missing the point about Osteen's teachings. I believe the truth is Joel Osteen does not preach true Christianity. It is not just fluff, it is false. Osteen preaches a false gospel that is the very opposite of Jesus' life, that misses the point and purpose of the Cross, and calls upon people to have a faith in something that is not biblical. Mark Driscoll explains further what I mean... just watch this short clip from Mars Hill."
http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/10/driscoll-explains-how-un-christian.html
Become A Better Ewe
...a new book from Pasture J. Sheepsteen
http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2007/10/become-better-ewe-from-pasture-j.html
"If you do not seek God because you believe Him to be supremely valuable,
then you are a hypocrite. To seek God for any reason other
than His own glory as Creator, Lord and Savior is to be a hypocrite.
It is the reason that the health and wealth gospel
is not simply a deficient view of the gospel,
but actually "another gospel" and will lead people to hell."
-Pastor John Swanson,
River Hills Community Church
RBB - The point is that God used Joel Osteen in a way that was very meaningful to me and my family, and you will not cede because you have doctrinal differences with this man. Christendom as a Body will accomplish *nothing* so long as people like you continue to sow discord along doctrinal lines rather than major on what unites us. 90 million people worldwide are wrong, and the know-it-alls on this board are right? Please accept that Joel Osteen is doing *at least* as much good for the Kingdom as you, agree with him or no. To suggest that Joel is no good at all is Pharisaical and disgusting.
On several occasions, I have seen Joel Osteen on TV. Though what he teaches is correct, only 1 time did I ever hear him mention the name of Jesus. I challenge anyone to find Joel Osteen present the gospel...I am not saying he does not, but I have never seen it.
kpercy07 - God has used much stranger things to bring those He wants to Himself. The point though would be not to give Joel Osteen the glory but God. It also doesn't change the fact that he doesn't preach the whole gospel.
bjsinger - That would be handy except John 3:16 isn't the gospel.
Joel Osteen - Prophet of the Feel Good Gospel; preacher of "I don't know if anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell Gospel; pretender to throne and leading thousands of people to submit to his "you can be a better you." He could take a few lessons from Jonathan Edwards!!!
Pastor Olsteen may not have an altar call at each service, but if he is getting people into the Bible then they can easily fnd John 3:16 on their own, pretty easy.
akondo: Thank you for admitting you have to be willing to blindly believe to think what you've listed is a good idea. You say you don't issue terrorist threats, then you tell me I'm going to hell if I don't join you in blind belief...do you read what you've written?
The "free pardon" you believe in involved the death of an innocent. You think its moral and just to allow an innocent to suffer and die for your crimes (keeping in mind that the "crime" is actually just ancestral blood guilt which is also unjust)? An unjust, hateful solution to a unjust, tyrannical problem. The god you believe in is a monster, and its sick and twisted that you see his cruelty, capriciousness, and tyranny as love and mercy.
The fact that you won't accept truth unless you can filter it through your faith demonstrates for all to see that you can't handle straight truth.
Citizen,
these are doctrines of the historical Christian faith which faithful men across history preached. the fact that you ( u dont believe in God, do u?) find them unpalatable only proves my point. the natural man will never find Christ and him crucified palatable.
i believe that it is God who saves. So all i have to do is preach the full counsel of God not issue any terrorist threats and force people to believe. violence and issuing threats is never an option.
i am more fearful of the One who has already condemned those who have rejected his offer of FREE pardon in Christ than any terrorist. As Mr. Duncan once said you will have to wade through the blood of Christ in order to go to hell. i dont have the truth? I have Christ who is the way the truth and the life. Do you?
akonda: that's a very self-loathing, fear-ridden, anti-humanity agenda you've got there. Why should anyone want to buy into it? Because you'll issue terrorist threats against them if they don't? If you really had the truth, you wouldn't need to, but you don't have the truth.
If Mr. Osteen preached - the Holiness of God, the justice of God, utter sinfulness of man and the inability of man to save himself, the wrath of God on all sinful flesh, Christ and him crucified, repentance, denying oneself, taking up our cross and following Christ as Lord and savior, sanctification etc - those things which he admits he doesnt then i would bet that he would loose most of his congregation. Christ commanded the disciples to preach repentance not our best life now, in his name. 'Rabbi' John Duncan once said that the first gift Christ gives born again christians is [surprise, surprise] a cross. No cross no Christianity.
my rural hometown of <2500 consistently has 7 Christian denominations over the years not to mention the occasional store front IIn the event all them are delivering Gods word, why isn't Osteen? Every Christian would be Catholic if the Christian faithful wheren't so fickle.