Most people in the United States still believe abortion should be allowed, a recent poll found.
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Survey: Majority of Americans Still Want to Keep Abortions Legal
By
Lawrence Jones
Christian Post Reporter
Tue, Nov. 13 2007 06:34 AM EST
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I wish with all my heart that we would have reason to believe that rape, incest, etc. are ills that could be cured. But my Bible tells me that these things are not going to go away, and in fact will get worse.
So many girls/women get abortions because of desperation. When they are faced with what to do, that little life can easily be brushed aside as just some "tissue". This is partly due to their preoccupation with the reality of their own lives and how inconvenient it is for them, and partly due to all those voices out there that say, "oh yes, you have the right to decide what to do with your own body, you can just plan your family when you're ready, it's no big deal". When we're desperate, don't we tend to go for the easiest solution that seems to cause the least problems? The secular world is very fond of saying there are no repercussions from this decision, and disdain the idea that it causes lingering psychological problems, that that's just a bunch of hype.
We need to keep getting the information out there as to the proof that this is indeed life (we have wonderful pictures too, I'm thinking of the one where that little fetus grabs the finger of the doctor), provide education and assistance, make adoption readily available, and work towards making abortion illegal. If abortion is not an easy alternative, it won't be an easy choice.
I believe with my whole heart that abortion is wrong. I believe its a sin. But, as I said earlier, if we eliminated the reasons for "needing" and abortion (rape, promiscuous sex, incest, etc) then the proponents of abortion are left with almost no cards to play in their favor. All that's left is abortion in the case of life threatening situations. And I've already expressed my opinion on that as well. But I do believe that abortion is a sin, yes.
In a sense we are fighting a losing battle, because we know how it's going to all come out in the end, and until that time there will be all those issues. But the winning part of the battle is all those people who will belong to our Lord when that day comes, and yes we are to shine his light in the battle for souls for Him, until the appointed time arrives.
But in the meantime, are you saying the issue of whether abortion is legal or not has no importance? Isn't that kind of like saying it doesn't matter what kind of laws we have against drugs or stealing or murder, or even speeding, because the lost are more subject to that anyway? I agree basically with the things you are saying, I just don't understand what you would do with the issue of abortion. Let it lie?
GMG
Exactly! "...these things have only minimal impact because of how far we are from God.....but of course we already know that. That's the crux of the problem."
These problems will always exist. We will never do away with them. There will always be rape, incest, promiscous sex, etc until Jesus sets up His kingdom. I know it sounds like we are fighting a losing battle. But the battle isn't necessarily to eliminate the sin...it's to draw the sinner into repentance. Sin will always exist until Jesus throws Satan into the pit for eternity. But God asks us, as Christians, to remove sin from our lives and to draw others to the Cross. And then God will convict their hearts.
Case in point...at one time, as a Christian, I believed that the death penalty was entirely justifiable. But now that I am learning more about God's love and grace, I find that it is not God's will. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." Matthew 5:38-40. That's a tough road to walk! I'm learning to walk that road of real Godly love.
Let me add -- I know what the world needs is God. But though salvation is available for the asking, we'll still have the problem of abortion for those who refuse to ask, and we know there will always be those who refuse to ask. So then what?
I don't disagree with the idea that we should address the causes of abortion, but there are many reasons people give for wanting them. So how would you go about fixing that?
One way, arguably the best way, is by acknowledging that that fetus is a life, and can you justify murder. But of course that is not going to hold up for many people. So what's left?
Providing assistance for those who need it, education on how not to get pregnant, teaching abstinence, providing adoption services, there are a number of these things already going on with varying degrees of success. I might add that a lot of these things have only minimal impact because of how far we are from God.....but of course we already know that. That's the crux of the problem.
So what are your suggestions?
Well said Prophet - I feel exactly the same way!
holito8
I see your point. God doesn't expect the heathens to believe or hold to the same tenets we do. The important thing is their salvation first. Then these other things can be dealt with. BUT....that will not excuse them if they die without the salvation of Jesus Christ. They will still be held accountable for their deeds.
But that is why i hold firm to this statement..."Why do we struggle so with the problem of abortion. Why not deal with all the reasons WHY people think they need abortion. That is the root. And that is what needs to be dealt with. If we fixed all those problems then abortion would not even be an issue. As it is, we are trying to cure a symptom...but not the cause."
To Holito8:
Beloved, you said "He did not expect the pagans to do the same.". While this may or may not be true, it was addressed by Paul when he was invited to address the Grecians. You will find this written in Acts:
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
The times of ignorance are over. They ended a long time ago. We are now without any excuse.
Dear one, you also said "God sends His people to preach the good news. He does not send them to enforce it.".
How true this is.
But doesn't it also say "You shall know them by their fruits". If we are to know them by their fruits, we are also allowed to discern the fruits themselves. If the fruits are rotten, we are allowed to encourage them, not judge them. We encourage them by showing them what is right, as Paul was doing with the Grecians.
When I read this scripture I don't see any separation between harm to mother only, baby only, or mother and baby. Any harm to mom OR baby is the issue, which indicates that God sees this fetus as a life worthy of protection. There is no indication as to whether this fetus was one week or 31 weeks old making any difference, it is still a life to be protected.
I understand what you are saying. But all people are not Christians. God was telling His people His requirements. He did not expect the pagans to do the same. God sends His people to preach the good news. He does not send them to enforce it.
prophet -
That's exactly how I read it also.
The way I view Exodus 21:22-25 is this. If a woman with a child is hurt so that she gives birth prematurely, but the child lives, then there is a fine. But if the child dies, then the punishment is escalated to death. It is actually pretty cut and dried.
ifeelfine -
yesterday evening you posted a thought that we needed to approach this issue (I wasn't sure if you meant abortion or conception) with "...sensitivity because the Bible doesn't speak directly..." to it, and gave Exodus 21:22-15. I asked for clarification, and Brother Billy posted his thoughts this morning. He seems to think that these passages mean that if the fetus dies a fine is owed, but if the woman is injured or dies than it is "a life for a life, ...."
When I read this scripture I don't see any separation between harm to mother only, baby only, or mother and baby. Any harm to mom OR baby is the issue, which indicates that God sees this fetus as a life worthy of protection. There is no indication as to whether this fetus was one week or 31 weeks old making any difference, it is still a life to be protected.
In other words, this passage speaks to me of a clear indication that the fetus is very much a person with the same right of protection is as afforded to the woman carrying it.
Hope this is clearer
to Holito8 and Ifeelfine72:
You can change any piece of literature to read what you want. But in the end, it says what it says.
God also gave us knowledge. With this knowledge, we are to know what was meant for yesterday was for yesterday. And, likewise what was meant for today is meant for today. For instance, sacrificing animals is not done because of the ultimate sacrifice of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Not eating of pigs is no problem today because of refrigeration and sterilization methods. This is only common sense, for if it were to be any other way, The Word would be specific.
You both profess to be followers of Jesus. That is in fact what a Christian is, one who is like Christ. One who is like Christ is one who does what he sees The Father do, as Jesus does. He said this Himself, He was only doing what He saw The Father do.
If we want to know what the Father is doing, we must look at what He has orchestrated for us to use, His Word. There is a lot of questions about whether the Bible has been changed over the years or not. I tend to not limits God's abilities. If He wanted a book to last the test of time, no matter what vicious dictators and oppressive religions wanted, it would happen. He is God. If we start questioning what is written, we have just said that God is not capable of maintaining His Word. I myself am not willing to say that.
If one believes in The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, then one must also believe in The Word that He wrote as well. If we question that, we question Him.
GMG - I'm not following your logic at all. Please elaborate.
Brother Billy and ifeelfine -
I'm sorry but I do not see the distinction between mom or baby in Exodus 21. "...and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows...." The potential harm would be to the mother OR the child, or both. These passages indicate that the fetus' life was as important as the mom's.
Exodus does not apply to the pagan nations. God is speaking to His people. You cannot apply those thing at that time to people who do not believe in God. Here are other examples. When God destroyed the world with the flood, do you think women were not pregant? When God destroyed Sodom and Gorrah, do you think children were not present? When God plagued the Egyptians, do you think children were not present? Why do you think Jesus said let the dead bury the dead? I read someone says. Thou shall not kill (murder). Murder is killing a human with a malice forethought. I do not condone murder of anyone. Abortion is not malice intent.
You could be implementing God as a murderer if you says this.
JC - It's been 20 odd years since I had high school algebra but I recall that if A=B and B=C then A=C. That theory could be applied to Exodus 21. It shows that the penalty for abortion isn't death (which it would be if the fetus was life).
Again, I need to state that I am pro-life (lower case P&L) but there is room for interpretation here and sensativity is needed.
Prophet read my post again. You will see I do believe in the gospel strongly.
Now let us not be ignorant of old testament. All children are not God's. All people don't believe in Him. Check the gospel of Joshua or Ester. God told the Isrealites to kill everything... man, woman and child. Don't get confused of children as God. All new people in the gospel are babes in Christ...ie children. You have the consept missunderstood. If you still don't follow read the book of Hosea or explain why Elijah cursed children.
To Brother Billy:
First on Exodus 21:22 & 23
Dear one, this passage does not deny the existence of life in a fetus.
For is it also not written?
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Psalm 22:10 Upon You I was cast from birth;You have been my God from my mother's womb.
Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,The fruit of the womb is a reward.
Ecclesiastes 11:5 Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things.
Look again at Psalm 22:10 "You have been my God from my mother's womb". If there was no life, how could it have a god?
Second, on Numbers 5:11-21.
Beloved, I think you might want to read this again. The drink didn't cause the abortion, the curse of God did. It was only dust and water. I'm pretty sure drinking dusty water will not cause an abortion.
Look deeper, where was the dust taken from? The Tabernacle floor, the very place where God came to visit. God Himself stood upon that dust.
Man didn't cause the abortion in this case, God did.
Prophet - I didn't mean to jump all over you for your statement but you are right, I am very defensive about my faith. I take my faith very personally and it certainly felt like an attack (questioning my motives, stating that I am not a Christian, saying I should act more like a Christian, etc). If you weren't then I apologize.
Fallenman - No attacks - but it seems as though you are taking the view of a secularist. And granted, we live in a secular world most of us on this site are probably trying to interpret the Bible for the best course of action on this subject and determine what is God's will. And I think most of us have come to the conclusion that abortion is wrong. I feel that we need sensativity and balance on the issue since there is no clear cut Biblical teaching on the subject.
Brother Billy - thanks for the clarification on Exodus 21 for GMG
To GMG re Ifeelfine and Exodus 21
I'm new here, via a link to this story. I know another passage besides the Exodus one, so I'll just jump right in.
Exodus 21:22-23 tells of a pregnant woman being injured as a bystander in a fight between two men. The Jewish and the standard Christian rendering and understanding of the passage is that if she miscarries and the fetus dies, a fine is owed to her husband. But if she is injured or dies, the "lex talionis"/eye-for-an-eye and life-for-a-life standard applies (although in Jewish practice that was evidently dealt with fines that increased with the severity of the damage). In the first case, it was a civil matter. The fetus was not considered a person. In the second case, it was a criminal matter since the woman is a person.
Numbers 5:11-21 is perhaps more startling. A jealous husband's test of his wife's possible infidelity is to take her to a priest and have him give her what appears to be an abortifacient. If it has no effect, she's chaste and she will be able to conceive in the future. If she has been unfaithful, the drink "will cause bitter pain, and her womb will discharge, her uterus drop..." and she evidently will be barren thereafter, under a curse and execrated by the people. If she happened to be pregnant by her lover (or by her husband), she would abort. So here it seems that abortion is ok at least for that time and place.
Translation is always a problem. The Hebrew is often terse and idiomatic and difficult. There is room for disagreement. But these passages certainly raise questions.
Mmmm I dont think I can ever figure out this arguement.. I am pro choice to the max, and I dont think men should even have a choice in this matter because its the women who are doing it... Or we have a much smaller voice in this issue... murder is wrong in any light I agree, but I still say women deserve the choice to have an abortion... So many people ruin their lives by having children way before they are ready... They could of gone on to do great things in life... and there is the arguement of adoption which is a valid arguement... but that puts the guilt on the parent and it puts a very interesting question into the mind of the child... should they ever find out they were adopted... Normally I am much less sympathetic on this arguement... but it has been quite some time since I've considered it, and I am not as quick to say pro choice... but I am still pro choice =/. It is not something that they should be sent to jail for... it is not something that we have a right to question.. we are not asking to take the burden off their shoulders, we are telling them to take up the burden themselves... I wonder how parents handle it? Imagine if your child ruined their life becuase of a child... imagine they had the chance not to ruin it? Sigh... I can see the responses to this as well... and I am scared to think of all the attacks... but to me its just being a tad bit picky.. but I can respect people not wanting to murder.. touchy subject to say the least.
I feel fine -
I'm not sure what you meant by "...the Bible doesn't speak directly to this issue (and when it comes close it doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it - Exodus 21-22-25)
JC said "If there is even the slightest bit of chance that there is a person there, life, then we would be wrong to destroy it." There is nothing at all there to signify that birth control is murder. How you came up with that, I do not know. But it is merely a restatement of what i said in my post right after that one. I said "If I am right--that a fetus is considered a living person at conception and that abortion is murder--what is the fate of those who support and do abortions? Eternal death? If they are right--that a fetus is not considered a living person until birth, or the 6th week, or 4th month, or whatever, and that abortion is not murder--then what is my fate? Certainly not eternal damnation. I err on the side of life." He said the same thing....just more succinctly. There is no reason to go off half-cocked putting words into people's mouths. You are a Christian. Act like one please.
ifeelfine,
Although I've already apologized if I was wrong, you wont put condemnation on me. And you are way too defensive! No offense, but I find it challenging conversing with someone who always makes themselves out to be a victim. I have made no predetermined opinion without saying "if I am wrong, then let me know". I didn't ask you to martyr yourself. You seem to take things too much in the extreme.
For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with JC's post to Brittaney.
Prophet - why do you make sweeping statements like that? I am a Christian, apperently one with different views than you - that doesn't make me any less a Christian. Talk about erroneous accusations!
I didn't mean to imply that JC is suggesting birth control is the equivalent of abortion (although many fine Christians do) but his bar is too high "If there is even the slightest bit of chance that there is a person there, life, then we would be wrong to destroy it." As a matter of fact, in my post I stated I don't think that was his intent but his bar is awfully high.
But, as my run-ins with you have indicated, you've already made up your mind on me, so I suppose it is pointless to engage in even a friendly debate.
"By JC's standard, birth control would constitute abortion." I've read JC's post over and over, and still haven't figured out where you got your opinion at. If you keep conception from happening, then it is not abortion. If you are the same "ifeelfine" i've run into in the past, then I question your motives and views. Although, we both believe in pro-life (on all the same accounts that you do), I remember that you are not a Christian. And you tended to make many erroneous accusations, such as the one you just made about JC. If I am wrong, then let me know. There are so many people that I've encountered on here, that it's hard to remember them all.
I am pro-life (lower case letters because I believe in a consistant ethic on life - no death penalty, vacinations for impoverished countries, etc) but we all need to admit that this is only because we believe life begins at conception. By JC's standard, birth control would constitute abortion. I don't believe that was his intention nevertheless it is a very high bar.
We need some sensativity on this issue because the Bible doesn't speak directly to this issue (and when it comes close it doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it - Exodus 21:22-25). Our goal shouldn't be to make abortion illegal but make sure that it is never needed or even considered as an option.
Right on, JC. In my website, I wrote this as one of my messages:
"If I am right--that a fetus is considered a living person at conception and that abortion is murder--what is the fate of those who support and do abortions? Eternal death? If they are right--that a fetus is not considered a living person until birth, or the 6th week, or 4th month, or whatever, and that abortion is not murder--then what is my fate? Certainly not eternal damnation. I err on the side of life."
To brittaney85:
Dear one, You profess to believe in a god because you said "god gave every man and woman free will".
May I ask which god you believe in?
For Christians, God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and He said "Thou shall not kill (murder)". This was a commandment to us, for us and about us, for who else would we murder?
Some people think that life begins at birth, others at conception. The truth is that no one really knows. Doctors and scientists like to say that it is just a mass of tissue, but in all honesty they don't know either. If there is even the slightest bit of chance that there is a person there, life, then we would be wrong to destroy it.
Destruction of life is destruction of life. No matter how you sugarcoat it, it is still death.
As I said in my post earlier, brittaney...if that is your sole defense...that we have free will, then you need to extend that defense to those who murder, lie, cheat, steal, rape, etc, etc. "to tell some one they can't do something because you don't agree it not right". Someone may believe that they have a right to steal something, or kill someone. In their heart they are justified. So why push your belief upon them?
brittaney...you must not be a Christian.
abortions should be legal be cause god gave every man and woman free will so to tell some one they can't do something because you don't agree it not right
Just kidding, by the way....
Muggle
I'm an investor! How dare you say such things! God told me to do that! He said He wanted to bless me, and this was how He was going to do it!
Insider trading....hahahaha. Thanks for the chuckle.
JC...
I see your point "Beloved, remember your teenage days, when satan's ploy was to tell you that "everybody was doing it". Well, they weren't, and they aren't. This is his lie, and it is an old one. It wasn't good to listen to this lie then, and it is certainly not good to listen to it now." It seems to me that is the tactic they are using here. They hope, that by telling people that "everyone (or most everyone)" feels this way so it must be alright, that they can get the few "borderline" groups to fall on board. Thus swaying the balance.
Prophet - >> holito8, "abortion should be legal"...hmmm. so should drugs, murder, rape, theft, etc. <<
Darn! You just said what I was going to say :^). But I was going to add insider trading.
holito8...sorry about the comment "But, I don't think you worry about that too much. I've read your posts in other rooms here on CP, and it seems to me that you don't believe in heaven or eternal life. Maybe I'm incorrect, but that's the impression you give off."...i had you mixed up with someone else.
Oh please. Here we go again. Leave it to ABC to schew the facts, and this time they had to go out of the country to do it. TNS, New Zealand's Consultative Market Research Company. (tns-global.co.nz)
New Zealand? They certainly are qualified to tell us how Americans feel.
I have just one question: If they are so sure that Americans feel this way, why don't they ever put it on the ballot?
They won't. It would be voted down, and all these organizations (Planned Parenthood, etc.), would lose their funding. They couldn't have that could they? As long as this is an issue that is not on the ballot, these people stay well fed. But, just like any pest infestation, the best way to beat them is to take away their food source.
Beloved, remember your teenage days, when satan's ploy was to tell you that "everybody was doing it". Well, they weren't, and they aren't. This is his lie, and it is an old one. It wasn't good to listen to this lie then, and it is certainly not good to listen to it now. The stakes are much, much higher.
holito8, "abortion should be legal"...hmmm. so should drugs, murder, rape, theft, etc. If you truly are a Christian, then you are the eptome of compromise and tolerance...both of which is an abomination in God's eyes. God doesn't tolerate sin. He is a holy God, and no sin can stand in His presence. If you want to tell people it's okay to sin, then go ahead. You live in the judgement of God. If I choose to warn people of their sin, I too will live in the judgement of God. Remember....judgement isn't always bad. When the Word of God says the He will judge us (i.e. judgement) by our deeds, that means that if your deeds were good, then your reward will be good. Am I preaching salvation through works. No. I'm preaching that once you get saved, your reward in heaven will be based on your works on earth. But, I don't think you worry about that too much. I've read your posts in other rooms here on CP, and it seems to me that you don't believe in heaven or eternal life. Maybe I'm incorrect, but that's the impression you give off.
Could it be that the number of people who think abortion should be illegal in MOST cases is dropping because the number of people who think abortion should be illegal in ALL cases is rising?
Holito - Outlawing abortion is not being advocated to try to force Christian beliefs on people. It's to give the unborn the kind of free will his mother enjoys, and its to protect a nation from judgement. God's law is God's law whether we like it or not, and we'll have to answer for our disobedience.
Abortion should be legal. Everyone is not a believer. God is not forcing us to choose Him. He gave us free will. We cannot force people to make a decision based on our belief. They have to make the choice willingly.
Just another great example of how one person can make a difference. May God strengthen you as you hold your sign for the protection of his little ones.