Some of the most prominent evangelical leaders and Christian apologists recently addressed thousands of believers amid a trend of atheist outspokenness.
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Militant Atheism Gives Rise to Christian Apologetics
By
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Tue, Nov. 13 2007 06:42 PM EST
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The smallest particles, quarks etc., have always existed as has all the rules governing their behavior.
I ran across this book recently and read it. A good start for understanding how evolution and faith can go hand-in-hand without punching a hole in either one:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1597260983/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/103-7875564-6999066?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
I know envy is a sin, but if you have Geisler for a professor, I envy you.I did not know much about him, but I picked up a couple of his books and I have not been disappointed.I sure wish I could have studied under someone like him instead of the liberal Religion/Philosophy professors I studied under.The Schaeffer trilogy is a good recommendation, too.Good job, schumacr.
GoldenEagle's right - if you're going to read just one book on the defense of the Christian faith, Geisler's book is it. Of course, I'm a little biased as Dr. Geisler is one of my professors... :-)
Another I'd recommend is Francis Schaffer's Trilogy, which contains his three most important works. Excellent stuff!
I like the points that schumacr makes.Many of these points are also covered in the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist".I hate to harp on it, but you need to read this book.I cannot emphasize enough how good this book is.
fallenman--Most of us do take a look at your side of the story from time to time, for myself i have not seen anything that would convince me of evolution-----as Darwin preached. I believe in Creation, personally I see it as the most convincing in light of the Bible and from what I have been able to investigate, but it really would not be that hard for me to accept a longer time period. However to say we came from monkeys is something else all together that to me would be an absolute contradiction to what I know is true.
Gods Blessing in your studies and college
In Christ
Tom
It touches me to know that there are those who will seek the truth even when they are sure of their convictions...
<<Ahhh im so glad Shumacr is starting to take other opinions on evolution >>
Christians, myself included, should always be willing to look at evidence and thoughtfully consider it. As I've said, if evolution is true, we should all be evolutionists.
<<so evolution is not an arguement against God, its merely an arguement for how life was created... the Big Bang would try to 'put a hole in God' but the Big Bang isnt proven....>>
OK, understood. I would, however, respectfully say that the big bang appears to have a lot of evidence on its side. The 2nd law of thermodynamics, the expanding universe, the radiation echo discovered in the 30's, the galaxy seeds found by the COBE explorer, and Einstein's theory all point to a beginning of the universe.
<<but thats getting quite a tad bit philosophical ^^. So I wont get into that.>>
Don't be afraid of philosophy - you and I both need it. There are lots of things you can't use the scientific method for. You can't use it to prove math or logic, because it presupposes both. You can't use it for moral/ethical judgments (you can't prove the Nazi's were evil via the inductive method). You can't use it to make aesthetic judgments (beauty, goodness). And you can't use it to prove science itself because the statement "Science is the source of objective truth" is itself a philosophical statement, and not provable via science. What science does is it proposes a paradigm that, for the moment, best explains our observations. Don't forget that someone may come along tomorrow with a better, more accurate paradigm...
Asking who created God is a category mistake - much like asking what does blue taste like. You don't create the unmade. And remember - you've got to have an eternal 'something' - either a Creator or universe to explain life. And the evidence still doesn't (in my mind) point to an eternal universe.
But ya if the Big Bang was proven then one could say God caused the Big Bang, because without God, one would have to ask what caused the big bang? Likewise though one could ask that of God, but thats getting quite a tad bit philosophical ^^. So I wont get into that.
By the way, Evolution doesnt put a 'hole' in God, it puts a 'hole' in genesis. Humans didnt pop into existance. But one could just modify his beliefs to make it fit more concisely... which it is possible to do... the whole thing with evolution vs creationism is that Atheists thought this was a genius idea, but then Christians said get rid of it, its trying to destroy Christianity, Atheists thought why?! Its such a good theory... so evolution is not an arguement against God, its merely an arguement for how life was created... the Big Bang would try to 'put a hole in God' but the Big Bang isnt proven....
By the way, I recommend schumacrs link... Its a long read, but its well worth it... it brings up some very goood points, see if you can disagree with the points that are brought up... or see if you can see which side is more provable? Anyways Schumacr's intent was hes giving you what Evolutionists say, now he wants to see what Christians say in response... I think thats a fair question! One I would be interested in hearing...
Ahhh im so glad Shumacr is starting to take other opinions on evolution ^^. Anyways guys Im going to stop.... im beginning to sense that things are only goin to become hostile, and I dont wish to quarrel... so I'll end it at that. I will read the works when I have timee and ill respond then... but until then, thanks for the chat you guys... its always nice to see what other people think as opposed to myself..
Well I said I would stop posting, but I do feel obligated to answer a few things.
First, I would indeed recommend my fellow Christians check out the link BobC posted because it does have good information that should be looked at. The link again is http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/Padian/Padian_transcript.html. Thanks again, Bob, for posting it.
Next, I would still ask those on this thread who believe in evolution how it definitively puts a bullet in God. Whether the big bang "banged" early or very long ago (and I think an old universe is a fine idea both scientifically and theologically), the cause of it must have arisen from something - something that is very powerful and intelligent. I hold to the intelligent part of that statement because I haven't been convinced yet that incogitative matter (non-thinking) can give birth to cogitative (thinking) matter. But I'm certainly open to hearing other's views on the subject.
I am assuming with a name like "Fallenman" that you already recognize that you are a sinner in need of a savior.That is the first step in coming to Christ.I am praying for you in your decision.Check out the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", and pray that God will help you see that He is there, and that He cares for you!!
"26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence." (1 Corinthians 26-29 NKJ).
Fallenman,
"Basically the point of me mentioning this is that I am not completely intellectual in my outlook on life, rather on the contrary, im quite in touch with my emotions... But because I am, I realize when emotion is overriding my judgement, and I refuse to allow it in such a tremendous life altering situation... Not with out ample evidence, tangible evidence. Philosophical theories are nice for strengthening ones faith, but it is not an ample enough foundation to give much credence too."
" 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew18: 1-4) NKJ)
"18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 18-25 NKJ)
" I choose not to live my life in fear, but rather to embrace life for all the wonders and beautiful things the world has to offer... I try to make the best of the moments I do get, and if I am not promised tomorrow, at least I can say I lived today."
Life as a Christian is lived in faith and not fear. Our steps are ordered in faith and God's word. God's words says:
"13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin" (James 4: 13-17 NKJ)
fallenman,
If you're not interested on how facts-based minds can make facts-based decisions on what you think is a non-facts-based premise, than you are NOT after facts on the very subject you asked for facts on. You are simply nurturing a view that you find more convenient. That is a choice, and you certainly have the right to choose for yourself. Just don't sugar coat it.
Ive spent most of my life* lol... I really make too many typos on this site for some odd reason...
I am very in touch with my emotions, a little too well... I am an introvert, I spend most of my time thinking to myself, and I've spent most of myself evaluating my emotional side, and I've also dedicated a large part of my life to observing other peoples emotions. My friends call me remarkably intuitive, and I've been nicknamed Dr. Phil a few times throughout my life... Basically the point of me mentioning this is that I am not completely intellectual in my outlook on life, rather on the contrary, im quite in touch with my emotions... But because I am, I realize when emotion is overriding my judgement, and I refuse to allow it in such a tremendous life altering situation... Not with out ample evidence, tangible evidence. Philosophical theories are nice for strengthening ones faith, but it is not an ample enough foundation to give much credence too. I will eventually look at those readings, just not in the next few days... I've tests essays and a torrent of other things to attend to beforehand.. and if I find myself reading these documents over writing my essay, I will certainly regret it in the future.
To Amy, Im sorry for your loss, but luckily enough you had people who loved you to carry you through the hardship :). To Tom, I am quite busy at the moment, while I can spare a few minutes to looking at articles or a few posts, at the moment I dont have the time to put forth in reading these given readings. I am losing sleep as it is, the life of a college student I suppose, to GMG, not in the least. People go to God PLENTY of times because religion appeals to their emotions. When we find ourselves in a hardship we find ourselves more susceptible to concepts that appeal to our emotion in a positive way. Many people go to religion because of the emotoinal tug Christianity tends to have over the hearts of many... I know the power of emotion and its blinding influence it can have on our perception of certain things. While I can say that I give all arguements its fair chance, and I would like to believe in God, if he truly exists because the benefits certainly out weigh the costs... To certain degrees..
fallenman -
You are enamored of evolution, why not use that same subject to find out what is worth your time look at. There ARE a number of evolution scientists who have come to a belief in God through their study of this very theory. Go ahead, google up some information on them. Aren't you the least bit curious as to how evolution could actually provide enough facts to make some mega-logical, atheist/agnostic bent, left-brained linear thinking, "science-only-please" type of person believe in God?
fallenman I have read most of what has been written and we have given you as well anybody else who is seeking the truth amble evidence for this God we believe in. We have suggested resources for you to read. Please check them out. It is okay to see what the critics says about these books but don't take their word for it check it out yourself. Most of these authors were in the same delima that you are in and realized that the overwhelming evidence supports a God who has sent His Son to die for you as well as all of us. Most of us believe there is more conclusive evidence for His being God and for His Bible being His word then for any other world view/religion, if you couple that with the real live experiences of those who have sought Him out with all their heart and mind you can see the reality of a risen Christ and the freedom that believing in His name brings. Listen to what we say,or preach, if you will, please understand it is for the most part out of love for you that the Lord fills in us thru His outpouring of His Spirit, but don't just believe us check it out by reading our evidence. Test this Lord we have come to know. Jeremiah 33:3 says "call to me and i will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know"
may God Bless you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Fallenman,
God loves you so much. And I don't have any doubt that your father is in His hands, experiencing a level of life that we can't even imagine. My friend who died is named Paul. He was killed in a car wreck at the age of 26; and I found out he had died later that evening. After choir practice, prayer requests were issued, and Paul's name was mentioned. My best friend of ten years had been killed at 10:30 that morning after delivering food to a poor lady who worked at the Student Center at my college. The woman who made the prayer request turned to me and said, "You knew Paul, didn't you, Amy?" Yes, I knew Paul. He was my friend for ten years. I went out into the hallway and collapsed. Ministers ran after me and prayed with me. People from the church never left my side for several days and well into the night. Whenever I needed a shoulder, one was there. As I closed my eyes, I saw Paul, but the shoulder I felt was an extension of God's gracce. Yes, Fallenman, God knows what you're going through. You're so close. You don't have to commit intellectual suicide to approach Him. Embrace Him with all you are, and you'll experience peace you've never known before.
Fallenman:
"Lets not get ahead of ourselves, I've got whats left of my life to make this choice, and I've already decided that I would only become Christian on the basis of evidence....."
Fallenman, don't gamble your life away like this. your playing spiritual russian rullete. You may or may not have many days left to live. I am not the one who allotted your timeframe on earth to you, but I do know who did. It is God the Creator of the Universe. I humbly implore you to call out to God, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. The Scriptures say that if you seek you will find (this is in reference to seeking after God) God also says in Scripture that if you draw near to Him, He will draw near to you. Fallenman, God has provided a way of reconciliation between Him and yourself - this Way is Jesus Christ (God in the Flesh who resurrected on the third day after willfully giving His life for you. He now sits at the right hand of the Father God). I exhort you to choose Christ. He changed my life, my way of thinking, and ultimately my eternal destiny. I now have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe based on may faith in Christ. I have to add that when one chooses not to accept Christ, then one is rejecting Him by default. Again, I will continue praying for you. I will pray for God's mercies to be shown to you.
When I find the time ill give it a look over, as to the watch, I choose not to live my life in fear, but rather to embrace life for all the wonders and beautiful things the world has to offer... I try to make the best of the moments I do get, and if I am not promised tomorrow, at least I can say I lived today.
"I've got whats left of my life to make this choice"
We are not promised tomorrow.
I hope that you do decide to follow Christ. I will be praying for you.
Fallenman: I would also urge you to read the books by Leigh Stroebel "The Case for Christ", and "The Case for Creation" Both books will point you biblically to Jesus Christ as the One and Only Savior of the World with historical facts, and they are written by an ex-atheist who on his quest to addamately disprove Christianity, he became born again based on the facts that he found.
Read the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", and see what you think.Whatever you decide, it's worth looking at because it will make you think, and it will challenge you to consider the evidence against Atheism.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves, I've got whats left of my life to make this choice, and I've already decided that I would only become Christian on the basis of evidence. The past few attempts were through scripture which are not sufficient enough to claim truth on behalf of itself, as for ID and Evolution, the jury is still out on that one, and the only reason I think that it is still being used in debate is because I do not know enough about Evolution to be at all persuasive of the validity of Evolution as a science.
Fallenman, He is trully a merciful God. This is why He is allowing you the opportunity to accept Him. He is patient and longsuffering, but you need to make a choice whether you would like to accept His gift of Salvation or not. Choose you this day whom you will serve. No one knows the number of their days. I will be praying for you and for the Lord to somehow touch your life and bring you to repentance and following Him.
And let us all hope that he truly is a merciful God.
No, you won't be turned back at heaven's gate, you will see the Lord. You will see who He is before your judgement.
Yes... at any point my time could come and it may all be too late... the consequences? I go to heavens gate and I am turned around and sent to hell... Should I be worried? I suppose there is a valid case that I should be.... Am I? At this moment not really... For a time I used to believe I knew the meaning of the phras, "Hell on Earth." The consequence of being a lonely wretched person.. Will Hell be worse? Realistically speaking probably... Its supposed to be the worst thing anyone can experience, right? I dont know... I could deal with physical pain... mental pain is what I dont want to be put through anymore... I suspect that I will become used to the pain after awhile... its kind of sad though you know? Here I've gone through all this, and rather than having a moment to rest... they want to put me through it for an eternity longer... when does it end? I guess the answer is never... The price we have to pay to live I suppose...
fallenman -
"You've never been dead, and no preist or Christian scholar I have ever heard of has died and lived to tell about it. So I know my question will never be answered..."
It is true that your father cannot come back and tell you. However, I have heard of a Christian scholar who has died and come back to tell about it, read 2Corinthians 2-4. Now you've heard about one too, so read it.
It's about Saul of Tarsus, a pretty nasty fellow, a very zealous jew, who made it his business to hunt down christians to make sure they got their just recompense for the apostasy of believing in Jesus. He was a very righteous man, very high up in the jewish religious setvery feared by christians. Until, that is, the day that Jesus met him while Saul was on the road to Damascus. From that day on he was a very changed man. He became Paul, spent the rest of his life telling the world about Jesus, was thrown in jail numerous times, beaten, left for dead.
Yep, during your life you are not likely to have a face-to-face encounter with God. And when you die decision time will be over; but you most certainly will see Him then. You're still awfully young, I'm sure you think you have so much time left, and you surely might. Or you might not. Only God knows the numbering of our days.
I suppose though it would be rather assuming of me to expect anyone to take me in lovingly.. but I dont desire conflict, insult, or violence of any nature... I simply desire civil discussion. But passions will rise as they have, and we have to make allowance for that.. we are only human.
Oh and I forgive you ^^. I understand the image the label of atheism tends to carry... I dont expect anyone to take me in lovingly, but I am patient...
mhmm mhmmm...... I know what Christianity offers... I've known for quite some time... and while I could use the love from time to time... Its not quite yet enough to convert me.... the search is never ending, and I've all my life to consider my options, because as they say, its never too late to repent, as long as I still breathe.... Unfortunately this very gracious offer has been exploited by some of the most evil characters... But I take stock of it...
Fallenman: I want to first humbly ask for your forgiveness for putting you in the same category as Bob C a couple of days ago. I see you are not a hardcore "atheist" and you are truly in search of the Truth. I read the post you had about your father, and I'm trully sorry that he is gone. I lost my grandmother a little over 2 months ago, and I was very close to her as a child, and even into adulthood; she was 97 years old, and subsequently my last grandparent. I feel your grief. I too was very hurt at her loss.
I did want to answer something for you, and I could be wrong, and you could correct me if I am, but I thought you had stated somewhat to the effect that you had questions as to why you're here, and how did you get here, etc. Fallenman, the Bible says that you shall know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free. Here is theTruth: the reason for our existence, and why we are here is to give glory to God. God created mankind for His pleasure and glory, but at the Garden of Eden, mankind (both man and woman) chose to rebel against their Creator. This rebellion is still with us today. Man has made God in his own image, and has rejected the Truth of His Word, and who He is.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose to obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence in Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
In addition, whoever else doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to Him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Jesus is coming for His Bride (Church) soon. If anyone out there does not know Christ the Risen Lord, Repent, and turn from your sins. He will forgive you and make you a new creature. The choice is up to you who you will decide to serve. The Gospel has been preached, not to tickle ears, but to draw men to Christ. Don't make the very sad mistake of rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation. No one knows when their time is come to die and leave this planet to stand before God. What wil you say when you stand before God and He asks Why should I let you into heaven? Make sure you are saved. Put your total trust in Christ Jesus the Messiah, and you can know for sure where you will spend eternity.
Thank you amy ^^ I appreciate the love.
My dear bob,
I waited for you to respond, my wonderful ape, for as long as a person who actually has a life could wait. Oh, the tragedy of being loved by all these lying flat earthers! And these abused children who keep giggling in the next room (though I'm sure they cry every time they think about singing "Jesus Loves Me"). But, I want you to know, darling, as you sit there in your lonely room, with that nice computer screen in front of you, that I'm only a thought away. There's no need to visit all those...websites...you go to in between posting your extremely important messages for all these religious pinheads to read. Just realize that when you're life seems meaningless, as it must be most of the time, that I truly find you attractive. Now, don't you get too busy and rile yourself up into that nervous fit we both know you get when somebody actually capitalizes "God" on this board. Take your medicine, dear, and it will all be alright. Until our next meeting, I wish you hugs and kisses from your favorite flat-earther!!
Fallenman,
I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. You seem like a very nice man, an honest man, and I hope you find the peace you're seeking. If I could give you a hug, I would. I lost my best friend in a car wreck a few years ago, and I wrestled with the same thing.
Amy
Ive spent my entire life questioning why we are here and where we are going... I've finally realized that I dont care why I'm here, im just going to make the best of the time I do have here, and I also realized that the answer to where we are going will never be answered in this lifetime. You can be 150% sure that Christianity will answer this question, but I realize and shall always realize that there will always be that doubt of uncertainty. You've never been dead, and no preist or Christian scholar I have ever heard of has died and lived to tell about it. So I know my question will never be answered... I will never be satisfied. Becuase the only person who could satisfy my desire to know what happens when we die, is already dead. As for my father... I knew my father. I can fathom what he guessed. I will ask those questions again throughout my life, but I know they will never be answered... they can never be answered... I realize we dont know and will never know...
Hello bob,
It’s such a delightful surprise to see you back on this board, posting away all those important comments about how horrible religion is and how smart you are. By now, however, I thought you’d discover more innovative insults to Christians than “flat earthers”—alas, the creative juices don’t always flow for your scientific geniuses. You are a genius, aren’t you, bob? Of course you are! I’m amazed that, given your important work as a scientist, you find time to educate all these illiterate, child abusing, flat-earther Christians! Do you have children, bob? Oh, I forgot, my dear simian is far too busy posting to have children. Do you have a wife, bob? Oh, my genius ape is far too busy with his great, scientific thoughts to be concerned with procreation. In the interest of furthering the cause of science, I thought I would spend a little online time with you, dear. It would obviously be the most meaningful time you’ve spent with a female lately, darling. May I call you darling, my precious bob?? You’re not nice, bob, but do I ever find you attractive!!
ok fallenman,
You "don't really care where you came from."..and you don't care where you're going. When you do get around to really facing the question of "why are were here" and "what happens when we die", then you might be interested in what your father found so interesting.
To be fair to schumacr, who I have been not very nice to, he was the only one on another thread who thanked me for some information about the Dover trial, which is evidence that even though I think some people are wrong about everything, everyone has some good qualities.
If anyone is interested, here is the Dover trial information that I was surprised to hear schumacr has been reading.
http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/Padian/Padian_transcript.html
Thanks again schumacr for taking the time to look at it.
schumacr, who I'm not surprised decided to run away after I figured out it was him who censored my comments, provided the following jesus website as a source of information about science.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs
From schumacr's jesus website: "Noah took 2 of every kind of animal onto the ark, including dinosaurs. The harsh post-flood environment made it hard for the dinosaurs to live long after this. Some may have been hunted to extinction, and others were unable to survive as they degenerated (part of the curse God placed on the earth when Adam sinned), and lost some of their original abilities (the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless)."
Any child knows dinosaurs became extinct about 65 million years ago, and our ancestors evolved into modern humans only about 100,000 or 200,000 years ago. According to schumacr's jesus website, dinosaurs lived on a boat with humans, an idea any child would laugh at. What made me laugh out loud was this part: "the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless". That really surprised me because I did not know creationists were that dumb.
I just talked to a biologist about it because I wanted to share the joke. This was his reply:
"Let me mention that the arms of Tyrannosaurus are neither shriveled nor useless. The upper arm bone is as long as mine, but as thick as my entire upper arm. The muscle attachment sites, from the shoulders (including the wishbone) to the fingers, are humongous. The arms are "reduced to the max": speed, and range, of movement entirely sacrificed to sheer unrestricted power. The Force was with Tyrannosaurus."
The question is, should people get their information about science from a jesus website, or should they ask a real scientist who knows what he's talking about?
Oh by the way look at this definition of the wishbone: "The forked bone anterior to the breastbone of most birds, formed by the fusion of the clavicles."
There's a wishbone in birds and the T-Rex had a wishbone. That's exactly what I would expect for 2 species who share a common ancestor. The flat-earthers will claim a common magician but now we all know how ignorant they are.
"Modern scientists all over the world are now side stepping the origin debate due to the vast discoveries that point to the necessity of an intelligent and caring Creator."
ProfessorX, the very first sentence from your website which I quoted above is LYING.
There are NO biologists, or any other scientists who aren't totally incompetent, who are "now side stepping the origin debate due to the vast discoveries that point to the necessity of an intelligent and caring Creator."
If you're going to provide links to websites written by liars, nobody is going to take you seriously. Believe in your supernatural magician if you want, but you got a lot of nerve to lie about scientists. There's so much dishonesty on this blog, sometimes I think being a liar is a requirement for becoming a christian.
My goodness... again I say, of course Intelligent Design and Creationists are going to dispute evolution because of their beliefs. But I want to see what the biologists themselves say about evolution...
Why don't you flat-earthers, who are constantly lying about science, dream up some lie for this, or you could, as usual, find some liar for jesus to get your lies. Personally I think it's extremely immoral to lie, and you evolution-deniers are lying constantly. If you can't invent your own lies, there is no shortage of professional liars for jesus. The problem is, everyone knows you're a liar. You are not fooling anyone.
http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2005/04/22/_um_team_recovers_ancient_whale_in_egyptian_desert.html
"The 1989 team discovered that Basilosaurus still retained tiny, useless legs, feet, and toes representing hind legs that were lost at a later stage of whale evolution."
Like I said earlier, the DNA evidence you liars keep lying about, even though you don't know anything about it, is the most powerful evidence for evolution. I would explain it to you, but you would not be able to understand it. You are too god-soaked to understand anything. The only thing you are able to do is constantly lie about everything to defend your childish belief in the invisible magician.
Humans didnt evolve from monkeys
And here it is ...
DARWINISM and ATHEISM: UNSCIENTIFIC & MYTHICAL
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
I mean knowing that I evolved from something else does not help me do what I want to do in life, same way that knowing i was created wouldnt change what I want to do in life. While to you the implications are far reaching... And the reason I argue at all about this is because people say that theres no evidence for evolution, that its faulty, that it doesnt answer this or that... Scientists dont hold the same view as you guys.... the people who do this for a living... and if your only source of information regarding scientists is ID, then of course you are going to disagree with evolution.. but ID has already been overturned if not at in your eyes in mine... And I say this because, evolutionists argued with every aspect of evidence that ID claimed to have and overturned it. So there was nothing left to say for ID....
Look at this comment: "In the beginning, God....." Looking for anwers? That's a very good place to start.
It's impossible to reason with a person who thinks answers to anything can be found in a person's delusions. Does this person want to study scientific evidence? No, of course not. This person doesn't even know what evidence is. He doesn't even know what science is. All he knows about is his worthless ancient bible written by people who didn't know anything, people who were almost as dumb as today's creationists.
The only possible solution to all this ignorance about the natural world is getting rid of all gods, and the sooner the better.
The problem is religions survive, despite how idiotic they are, because of the child abuse called religious training. The brainless preachers and the dishonest parents get to the kid long before they know what science is. When they finally learn about science, they are already trained to believe all scientists don't know what they're talking about. Some of these children are actually trained to harass their science teachers. This is true and I have evidence for it.
There's no question about it. God makes people stupid. The god invention was our worst mistake and it must somehow be eradicated.
Im looking for answers, but not to the question of evolution. Evolution is a tangent that I went on, but if I begin believing in God, I will hold Evolution as a constant still. And yes I do understand that the desire to believe that God created the world is hard to let go of.... Dont get me wrong, im not insulting you, I am just saying if for example you are wrong, then that means you'll have to drastically change your view on life right? So of course you are going to fight against anyone trying to change that view... Personally I could care less how I came to be, that never really bothered me, all I cared about was that I came to be... but I believe that evolution is a sound subject of science, that all scientists believe is true... unless you are a scientist of ID. Which they found out is simply Creationism reworded.
Yes we can start in the middle lol... we are given the building blocks to build a tree, and you are asking me who built the blocks? Why do we need to know who built the blocks, the tree can still be built with out knowing who built the blocks... And you pose a very good question, why do we have a spleen? lol why do we have nipples... thats a good one =/. They havent found all the evidence for all the transitions... for humans for example... theyve found more primative forms of humans for simplicity sake known as the "cave-man" Take that a bit further back and you get some ancestor that had the characteristics of a much more primitive subject. They didnt have to be exactly monkeys... because monkeys are considered the evolved form of what ever ancestor gave rise to humans and monkeys. Monkeys evolved to be able to survive in the environment they were given and they do so relatively well. But just because they havent found the very FIRST ancestor of human and monkey, doesnt mean that there isnt one, just means that we cant find it and sadly probably wont, BECAUSE! I mean... bones that old will have probably turned to dust by now, those bones were probably turned into petroleum by now.... but its still possible that they may find a bone that old...
Fallenman, I have a suggestion. Before the world can be rid of the stupidity of creationism, some way must be found to get rid of all the god beliefs. It's obvious from the comments here, a belief in god makes people stupid. It pointless to explain science to a stupid person. First it is necessary to get rid of the cause of the stupidity, the belief in the magician the flat-earthers call god.
Ok.. so what are the responses to the appendix and tonsils? Why is the Krebs Cycle not created perfectly? And we can give ourselves purpose, what happens in the universe in nature in evolution does not in any way inhibit our ability to give ourselves a purpose... and the reasonss questions are asked is because people believes it contradicts religion... so of course they are going to object... and what were the big questions asked that were side-stepped? For the eternal universe? As I've said before.. we dont know. Science does not know with certainty yet. Its still something that is being researched. The Big Bang is not the end of the road, its just a fork in the road leading to the same place. No one knows how the universe started. Many scientists believe it might be something like the Big Bang. But its not a certain. The proof though is in quantum physics. In science we are allowed to claim ignorance of something we dont know, because the next step would be to find out. But right now Big Bang is the big theory, and until it is overturned it will be the one with the most evidence. But it can still be overturned.
ok fallenman, shumacr is right you know, but here's another chance for you.
"Now then, the beginning of life is crucial to Evolution with out question, but one does not need to know why we came into existance or how, to know that Evolution works upon living creatures." Really, I thought this was the foundation of evolution -- that this became this...became thisl...became this, and that's HOW we came to be.
" Somehow there was a creature that began to live, and as soon as one creature began living, Evolution began. We dont need to know how life began in order to prove evolution, we know evolution works." So, you can begin in the middle when developing a theory and just jump right in, you don't have to begin at the beginning? No, that's not exactly scientific. We're right back to "Where did it all start, how do you get something from nothing.
"They have found transitional animals going back to the dinosaurs that have explained the transitions from one species to another. Dinosaurs became reptiles and such, and reptiles became birds, this they found out. They've found transitional animals my dear ^^." Really. I gave you examples of the ape theorie on transitions, you give me information on your above statement.
Now then as to ID. Ok if ID happened then this is what we can conclude, some creator created us and the world. Ok. Why did they create animals this way, why humans that way, why birds this way? Why did God give us opposable thumbs? Why did he give deer antlers? Why did he give polar bears insolation?" I already told you about polar bears - this is what allows them to live in the arctic. Opposable thumbs were so we could hold things. Birds wings so that they can fly,...........come on, he created all things for a purpose, with what they needed, and would you be happier if everything looked the same and functioned the same? And oh yes, being a nurse I can tell you why we have tailbones - they are the anchor for muscles, etc. Can you tell me what function the spleen serves, and why God gave us one even though we can live perfectly fine without one?
Are you looking for anwers fallenman, or are you looking for something to fill your time for kicks?
"In the beginning, God....." Looking for anwers? That's a very good place to start.
From the website schumacr recommended as a good source of scientific knowledge:
"I believe that Dinosaurs were created on Day 6, the same day as Adam. I believe that they lived for a few thousand years, until the flood came. Noah took 2 of every kind of animal onto the ark, including dinosaurs. The harsh post-flood environment made it hard for the dinosaurs to live long after this. Some may have been hunted to extinction, and others were unable to survive as they degenerated (part of the curse God placed on the earth when Adam sinned), and lost some of their original abilities (the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless)."
When I read "the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless" I laughed out loud. These are the words of 5 year old, or an adult as smart as a 5 year old. Actually most 5 year old children could never dream up anything this stupid. And schumacr wanted me to use this website for information about science. You know what I think about you schumacr.
schumacr, I have been giving you and the other flat-earthers all the respect they deserve, and they deserve no respect at all. You and they would rather believe there's a magician in the clouds directing everything, creating every insect, every species of bacteria, every ape including the human apes, instead of the natural explanation accepted by every single competent biologist in the world. Meanwhile you and the others are constantly LYING about science and LYING about scientists. Please explain why LIARS like you deserve any respect.
Also, please explain why I should respect somebody like you who censors any comments he doesn't like. The only thing worse than your total ignorance of the natural world is your extremely immoral censorship of my comments.
"Jesus, Dinosaurs and More" is a webpage of Scientific evidence supporting the Biblical account of Creation."
That's the website you gave me. I think you want to be laughed at.
schumacr, I think it was you who flagged my comments as inappropriate. You're the only other person here, and my honest comments were erased very quickly. It was you, wasn't it?
Why do some whales have legs, feet, and sometimes even toes inside their bodies? It's because they descended from land animals. I have evidence for all of this. What to see it, Mr. Censor Man? You could even look it up if you weren't so lazy.
I would explain the more powerful DNA evidence you flat-earthers keep LYING about, but you would not be able to understand it. You could even look it up and do the hard work of at least trying to understand it, but you are terrified of science, and of course, like all creationists, you are LAZY.
If you read my comments that you deleted, then you know what else I (and all scientists) think about you.
schumacr, how would you like it if I deleted your comments? Censorship is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
OK. Humans with tails? Why the tail-bone? Good night, those are mid-1980's arguments guys. You'll need to do much better than that I'm afraid. Gould, etc., all tried to posit the position you're so confidently asserting, but it didn't wash. Plenty of material out there if you want to check it out. Just one source is reprinted here: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/tailbone.html.
Now how about answering my question or supplying us with proofs for your eternal universe? Or will it just be another par for the course round of insults? Tough I know to combat the nervousness, lack of confidence, and insecurity you feel in your position, which manifests itself through insults and hate. A lot of people don't want there to be a God, I understand...
As fun as this has been, I feel this has degraded into a grade-school shoving match, so I’m going to end my participation now. Jesus tells us that sometimes you just need to stop as there are those who won’t listen to the truth. In Matthew 15:14, He tells his disciples (regarding the crass religious leaders He was facing off against), “Let them alone…” Sad, but disappointing.
Wishing you all the best and I’m sure we’ll meet again on another thread.
<<I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?>>
Why don't you answer those questions schumacr?
Your "I have a better question" is not an answer. Stop being a coward schumacr. Answer those questions.
The reason we have a tailbone is because our ancestors had tails. Sometimes human babies are born with tails. What to see the pictures schumacr?
schumacr, against your idiotic childish creationism I have the entire scientific community, and they all accept evolution completely. Those scientists laugh at you schumacr. Do you like being laughed at by scientists? Are you proud of that? I bet you are proud of it. I bet you believe those scientists go to hell, don't you? Sorry, very very sorry, but you totally disgust me.
"Disobedience and sin brought death."
Prove it schumacr. That's a very wild claim. I want the proof for it. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence. Let's have it. If you don't have any evidence for it, why don't you admit you were either lying, or you are willing to believe any nonsense, no matter how idiotic is?
For once I would like to write some honest comments here without some know-nothing coward censoring it. I ask for evidence, instead the immoral christians erase the question.
How does that work schumacr? Did you flag my honesty as inappropriate? I'm just wondering who the coward is.
Wow, that was fast. The cowardly thought police don't waste any time.
<<I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?>>
I have a better question, why would you, who are the accidental by-product of a purposeless universe, spend so much time here and write with so much purpose in mind? No offense intended (seriously), but you're a living contradiction. Atheists simply cannot live out their beliefs because God has hard-wired you differently than the direction you're trying to go.
If you take the time and read back through these posts, I think it's very interesting to watch the pattern that has developed. No thought at all given to the big questions that have been posed - merely side-steps around or complete ignoring of the questions those on the side of theism have posed. Next, use of assumptive language or logical fallacies that demonstrate a willful disregard for things you don't want to be true. As I have said, if macroevolution is true, then we should all believe in it - no questions ask. But ignoring the evidence of DNA (the language of God - Collins) and stating there is no evidence for God's design after thinking it over these last few days is preposterous and exemplifies a willful turning aside from the truth.
You see, belief is more than being informed of the facts or knowledge transfer - it involves the will. Plenty of people know the truth about various things, but they *choose* to not adhere to the truth and live differently. Simply put, Truth + Action = Belief. Suppression or ignoring the truth is the typical route because you can't prove a truth wrong, or as Thomas Aquinas said, "The contrary of a truth can never be demonstrated".
It's a "will" problem my friends, not a facts problem. And as Richard Weaver (who taught English literature at University of Chicago and influenced Alan Bloom who wrote "The Closing of the American Mind") said: “Nothing good can come if the will is wrong. And to give evidence to him who loves not the truth is to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation.”
I wish you the best.
ifeelfine72 - Regarding your question, I assume you're a theistic evolutionist? If not, then my mistake. But if you are, my answer to you is no, I don't believe evolution can at all be married to historic Christianity. Why? What does evolution depend upon? Death. What does God's Word tell us about how death came into the world? Disobedience and sin brought death. Now if man supposedly evolved through going from the goo to you, then all those previous beings died before coming to man, who the Bible says brought death into the world. See how the puzzle pieces start not fitting together? I would respectfully ask you to rethink your position as you'll need a big red marker to cross out lots of verses in Romans and elsewhere to make your theology work, and in the end, you'll still have a belief system that is inconsistent and incoherent.
I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?
Molecular and genetics also tells us a lot about evolution as well ;P.