Some prominent evangelical leaders are criticizing the heads of the National Association of Evangelicals for signing a letter to Muslim leaders containing controversial language.
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Evangelicals Rebuke NAE Leaders over Islam Letter
By
Ethan Cole
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, Jan. 04 2008 05:15 PM EST
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The doctrine of the Trinity is the conservative Christian belief inherited from Greek pagan religions that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up their belief in god. These three persons are alleged to be of the same substance, equal in power and glory. This is the sacrilegious conservative Christian belief categorically opposed by Almighty The-God in the religion of Islam / Shalom.
The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one".
Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me".
Clearly, these biblical verses reveal that there is only one God. Yet, zealots in Christianity have fabricated three separate persons in the New Testament who are allegedly called and share the attributes of The-God. They give the characteristics only God can have that are a shameful blasphemous belief.
'The concept of Trinity is not the teaching of Jesus Christ'. 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom'? Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the Holy Spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
pilgrim.1
I have not aasumed that Bible is wrong but factually some portions of bible with relation to basic faith have been adulterated with Greek Pagan mythology for which zelaots mainly converted Greeks in 65 A.D. have been responsible. Many parts of Bible which relates to Jesus Gospels are nice literature which would help you to behave humanly.
The doctrine of the Trinity is the conservative Christian belief inherited from Greek pagan religions that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up their God. These three persons are alleged to be of the same substance, equal in power and glory. This is the sacrilegious conservative Christian belief categorically opposed by Almighty The-God in the religion of Islam / Shalom.
The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one".
Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me".
Clearly, these biblical verses reveal that there is only one God. Yet, zealots in Christianity have fabricated three separate persons in the New Testament who are allegedly called god and give the characteristics only God can have that is a shameful blasphemous belief.
@khanson,
Your quote:
'Look at the Prophets and God's men before Jesus,
whom they worshipped. They all worshipped Almighty The-God'
What source or texts are you asking others to look at in order to see 'the Prophets' when you already have assumed that the Bible is based on 'human innovations'? I see a self-contradictory premise in your arguments in so many instances that I just had to make a few remarks.
Now, suppose indeed we all go to the Bible to look at the Prophets, how is it that the same Prophets made remakable statements that you cannot find anywhere in the theology of Islam? For example, the prophets knew God as 'FATHER', and let me cite just a few of them:
(a) Moses knew God as FATHER:
Deuteronomy 32:6
Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?
is not he THY FATHER that hath bought thee?
hath He not made thee, and established thee?
(b) Isaiah knew God as FATHER:
Isaisah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our FATHER,
our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
(c) Jeremiah knew God as FATHER:
Jeremiah 3:4
Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My FATHER,
thou art the guide of my youth?
Now, against all the argument of being a strict monotheist, have you considered the confessions in the worship of the Prophets whom you urged others to examine? They new Him as FATHER; and as a 'strict monotheist', do you know God in the same way that those Prophets knew Him? Do you confess Him as such, or you'd rather keep denying the same revelation of the Prophets whom you yourself asked others to look at?
With love in Jesus.
jesus4me
With all due respect to you as a human and respect to your personal belief, your beliefs are human innovations. I am as a strict monotheist do not contribute to your faith which stands on human dreams and assumptions. I do not blame you because you have been fed with this kind of knowledge since your childhood. This has become your passion.
My dear, you believe in the bible which is the writing of human inspirers, only a portion of it could be trusted to be correct. By saying so, I do not mean disrespect to anyone but respect to the truth that "The only deity worth worshipping is Almighty The-God".
Be a good Christian by accepting the fact that non of The-God's creation could ever become deity, only Almighty The-God is deity. The man-made deities would be destroyed by The-God because only Almighty The-God is eternal.
Look at the Prophets and God's men before Jesus, whom they worshipped. They all worshipped Almighty The-God. The Creator Lord never fakes His identity with human incarnation. Like Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses, Jesus was a humble servant of God. He was the unique Messenger prophet and I love him so for his teachings and example.
Khanson, you said:
"As far as Jesu being son of god - I refute it bluntly - the simple reason is that God is The-Creator Lord. He does not need to become human - He commands and it is done."
Khanson, when you deny Jesus Christ's Deity, you deny the Creator God. Read the Word of God for yourself.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
Prophet
Jesus4me and I had a long conversation and I had no intention of hurting anyone's feeling or anyone converting from one religion to others. My intention with all you guys is to share with you the concept of God. Almighty The-God cannot be more than one - He is Just One God.
As far as Jesu being son of god - I refute it bluntly - the simple reason is that God is The-Creator Lord. He does not need to become human - He commands and it is done.
No one is saved unless believes and worhips One God without attaching any affiliations in His Oneness. I never thought that you or any Christian worships any other god because there is no other god except The-God of Adam. But majority of the people conceive not.
Jesus4me,
Continue to share the truth of God's Word my friend :)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek - Romans 1:16
the-khanson
That's very mature. LOL. I have read the conversation between you and jesus4me. I know for a fact that Jesus4me is saved, so I have to wonder what your last post is all about. Maybe it's some attempt to regain some of your pride and make yourself look good. J4M's post seemed to be based on the Word of God. Yours is just angry retaliation. Im sure that your last message to J4M will be ignored as being immature. I will continue to pray that you will be led into the Truth of who God is and what He is all about.
jesus4me,
Continue to walk in His truth. Place Him above all things, and continue to keep Him as Lord of your life. God bless you.
Jesus4me
Jesus4me, if you want to truly follow Almighty The-God, and be righteous in The-God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His Oneness. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice.
I as well as I am sure others are urging you in love to repent of your sins to The-God of Adam and Jesus, accept Jesus Christ as the Messenger Prophet of Almighty The-God, accept him (Jesus Christ) as a Way, the Truth and the Life, ask only Almighty The-God to forgive you of your sins, and follow His Almighty through His Almighty’s teachings in Torah, Gospel and The Last Testament Qur’an.
Worship THE-CREATOR not His creatures.
The Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Derowr
Messiah is Christ and Jesus is Christ if anyone believes to be true. Those who deny Jesus as Messiah would soon realise that they are in a fools' paradize. Almighty The-God would send down Jesus Christ once again to "liberate" Monotheists and free the land from the darkness of evil.
Jesus Christ would establish the religion of God: Monotheism and all false gods, bogus religions, polytheism and man made idols would perish and burn in Hellfire.
all systems of religious theo'ry'logy are Anti-Messiah.
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" "The Light" that is The Messiah.
peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one"(1Jn5:19) indeed and Truth....... francisco
January 14th 2008 06:07 PM ET
Jesus4me
You are certainly a well convinced person on what you believe. You must critically analyse your beliefs and ask question whether your are correct. Take hours, days and weeks but be correct. Mind you, you cannot face Almighty The-God on the day of Judgement because you do not believe in Almighty The-God. You have given the rights of The-Creator Lord The-God to a human Messenger Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH).
Almighty The-God never tolerates partners in His domain. Jesus Christ is just a human creation who has been elevated to The Messenger Prophet of The-God. So were Moses, Aaron, David, and Abraham (PBUT).
Think and question yourself: If Jesus was god then all the Prophets before him did not worship Jesus as god; certainly there efforts were a waste. Beware, all the Messenger Prophets worshipped ONE-GOD none worshipped Jesus as God.
Before you die, believe in One-God which Jesus Christ (PBUH) believed and so the other Prophets. After doing that if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in dealings with people there is hope that you may be redeemed by Almighty The-God.
By doing so – you would still be a Christian, a devout Christian.
Jan 14 - 2008
Jesus4me
It wasn't until about A.D. 65 that these stories and sayings (of the so called bible) began to be gathered and re-written down in books known as the Gospels, which make up about half of what Christians call the New Testament.
The most notable is the fact that Jesus Christ never wrote any portion of the New Testament but there is ample understanding that the original written New Testament existed in Hebrew/Aramaic which were lost during the Roman’s barbaric rule. Exact revelation of verses to Jesus Christ has been always believed to be in Hebrew/Aramaic but the existence of original New Testament in Greek is in itself is a sign that original revelations to Jesus Christ were lost just after his upliftment to heaven. Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic and Hebrew but not Greek.
Otherwise the following blasphamous verses would not be in the bible. I can provide many such biblical verses which are again the nobilty of pious human. If you defend bible then answer me from the following: -
33: And they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow that the firstborn said unto the younger, "Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father {21st Century King James Version Genesis 19:33 – 35}.
No wonder incestion among most westerners come from the inspiration of this erroneous so called biblical verse. Would you still call it the word of god? You should be purifying your holy book from unholy accusations and purifying yourselves in the court of Almighty The-God who is ONE and WHO is the Master of the Day of Judgement.
khanson, the Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
khanson, please do not be angry, but accept the facts and the TRUTH:
Genesis 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.
Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter
Genesis 25:11
And it came to pass, after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac. And Isaac dwelt at Beer Lahai Roi.
Genesis 25:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter
Exodus 3:15
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:14-16 (in Context) Exodus 3 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 6:8
And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’”
Exodus 6:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 6 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
Exodus 32:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 33:1
[ The Command to Leave Sinai ] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’
Exodus 33:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 33 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:41-43 (in Context) Leviticus 26 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
Jan 14th - 2008
John 14-6
I never questioned any matter against Jesus Christ except your belief that he is son of God. For me as a Muslim, Jesus Christ is from Divine, he is born without father, he is The Unique Messenger Prophet of The-God, His teachings are Divine and He never died on cross but will return to this earth to take the leads of believers. Among those believers, Khanson would also be there if life span permits.
By reading The-Qur’an, you will not become Muslim. You would be blessed with the additional knowledge that will make you rich. The-Qur’an is for whole of mankind as well as jinnkind, I would give you a sample of The-Qur’an. This is the beauty of God which His Almighty describes in His Last Testament:
"GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great" {The Qur’an – Chapter: The Cow 02:255}.
Jan 14th - 2008
John 14-6
Archangel Gabriel came to Muhammad (SAW) and revealed the first verses of The-Qur’an. When Gabriel came to him (SAW) he was not aware of him being Gabriel. Gabriel introduced himself and said:
Read (Muhammad said I am unlettered). Gabriel said Read in the name of God (Alloh) the Beneficent and Merciful.
Almighty The-God gave empowerment to an unlettered person (Muhammad) to read and he read.
“Read in the name of the Lord who created you? Who created humans from the blood clot? Read in the name of beneficent (God) who teaches with Pen. He (The-God) teaches people which they do not know” {The – Qur’an}.
Can anyone unlettered could become the leader of 1.50 billion people today. This is the first miracle which should be sufficient for the knowledgeable to understand. Can anyone unlettered write a magnificent book of Qur’an?
If you were aware of the richness of knowledge in The-Qur’an that would have been a reason for you to live in this world.
khanson--
(continued)
Having delivered my arguments for the truth of the Bible, it's historicity, it's authority, it's accuracy, as proven by manuscript evidence, historical-contextual veracity, archaeological evidence, etc, I will tackle the supposed revelation of the Koran. Mohammed's supposed revelation came in a cave from the "angel Gabriel". Now I will ask you to address these arguments and points:
First, the only witness to this supposed incident was Mohammed himself. Not a great start. The only authority for the status of "prophet" for Mohammed comes from Mohammed simply saying he was a prophet. Um, I could do that too, anyone could, but it doesn't make us prophets. Mohammed offered no proof of his status as prophet through miracles or anything else. When rebuked and opposed, God did not intervene (as he did with Elijah and the priests of Baal or any other prophet, or Moses and the plagues, the Red Sea, etc) for Mohammed. Mohammed simply turned from the peaceful message he first preached (a sort of pseudo-Christian message) to a violent and vengeful message. He gathered enough people to support him through his promises of plunder, to launch an aggressive, violent campaign against those who rejected him. That doesn't prove anything except that human nature is consistent.
(to be continued)
khanson--
The question of Jesus divinity is closed, for true Christians. Jesus divinity - equality with God - his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead are not open to negotiation. Any Muslim seeking to get Christians to deny Christ's divinity, to deny his death on the cross, to deny the empty tomb, or to deny his resurrection and appearance to his disciples, his fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah, and his atoning for human sin, is in a losing argument. These points are not open to negotiation to any true Christian of any denomination. This is the heart of orthodoxy in all Christian denominations.
(continued)
The important fact is this - not one area of the New Testament where there is some question of original wording affects any point of Christian doctrine, nor does it in any way change or affect anything Jesus said. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. Through the long ages of history, we have more copies of our scripture than any other ancient manuscripts in existence (and our copies are older and closer to the source than any other ancient historical documents - papyrus, codexes, etc - over works such as Homer's Ilyiad, Josephus, Plato, etc). Keep in mind, too, that the gospel message isn't a product of written documents. The apostles spread the gospel of Jesus Christ for decades before anyone wrote it down. It was spread by oral tradition, not by manuscripts (just like the Koran, in fact). The ultimate truth and authority is in the message, not a book.
For detailed arguments see "Misquoting Truth" by Timothy Paul Jones or "Fabricating Jesus" by the brilliant scholar Craig Evans, these contain more detailed discussions of the New Testament manuscripts, the reliability of their transmission, etc, written for lay people. Excellent books that provide scholarly evidence and arguments that I don't have time or space here to include.
Anyway, the reliability of the New Testament and its authority isn't a question for Christians as history, science back it up, and the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of its authority and truth. That truth is not lost simply through a translation. Muslims are being dishonest when they claim that Christians have 1000 versions of the Bible and therefore it can't be authoritative. Utter nonsense, but it probably sounds convincing to Muslim believers when it comes from some Imam's mouth.
Search on "verbal plenary inspiration" and on "New Testament autographs" on Google.
khanson--
You need to re-read what I posted about the Christian view of inspiration vs. Muslim's view of the Koran's supposed inspiration/revelation (I do not consider the Koran to be a divinely inspired or revealed book).
First, I'll answer your charges about the New Testament. Then I'll present my critique of the Koran.
As to the New Testament, as I said, Christians do not consider translation of the original Aramaic, Greek, etc, to negate the verbal plenary inspiration of the text. The Holy Spirit is capable of revealing the truth in any language. The fact that the underlying source text has been translated is not an issue whatsoever for Christians. Only the original source documents (called "autographs") are considered "inspired", not the copies. And all we have are the copies, since the source documents have long since turned to dust. Over the long period of history there were scribes who made minor errors here or there, or sometimes inserted something to provide clarification on something they thought was unclear (the Koran suffers similar problems or defects, but I'll save that for that discussion next). However, thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit, and the divine providence of God, we have been provided thousands of copies of the New Testament manuscripts that go back even to the second century in some cases. We also have copies from a geographically broad spectrum, too. Therefore, through the science of textual criticism, it is quite easy for scholars to know exactly what the original source documents said. There is a very small percentage (less than 4% is the figure, I think) of the text in which there is any question as to the original wording (and this is usually something insignificant, such as did the text say "they are" vs. "they did" or something along those lines).
(to be continued)
January 12 - 2008
Jesus4me
john14-6
Prophet
When I (Khanson) assert that Bible is no more pure word of Almighty The-God but purposely infringed by the enemies of God (Satan), I mean it with some genuine reasons not a mere accusation. One of the shocking text of bible accuse The-God's Prophet Lot of Incestion which you call the word of God. Refer it by yourself: -
33: And they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow that the firstborn said unto the younger, "Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father {21st Century King James Version Genesis 19:33 – 35}.
No wonder incestion among most westerners come from the inspiration of this erroneous so called biblical verse. Would you still call it the word of god? You should be purifying your holy book from unholy accusations and purifying yourselves in the court of Almighty The-God who is ONE and WHO is the Master of the Day of Judgement.
May Almighty The-God Guide You All (A'men).
January 12 – 2008
Jesus4me
If you keep aside your erroneous concept of Jesus being God or Jesus being son of God then we can concentrate on the teachings of Jesus. If you are a devout Christian you will find most of the teachings of Jesus in different versions of Bible (which are still intact) similar to what has been safeguarded in The-Qur’an.
Such commonalities of Jesus teachings are to be found and could be practiced without any problems.
The bottom of the truth remains that "The-God is one, He begets NOT, nor is He begotten and there can never be anyone like His Almighty The-God". We as Monotheistic believers in The-God would never agree to man made assertions. The concept of trinity in itself was introduced after the departure of Jesus Christ. Whatever writings and example you and your colleagues gave about the ID of Jesus are all manmade. The fact remains that Jesus Christ (PBUH) is still the Unique Messenger Prophet of God and he shall return to the earth as human and to die as human.
Mind you, God Never Dies.
If you still persist on man-made trials and errors then follow that concept with your version of Bible as per your will. Who knows, you can also come out with your own version.
At this point I could only say "Your religion is with you and my religion is with me". Let us not hate each other but let us tolerate each other and keep the door for the conveyance of guidance open through dialogue. Who knows you may become a great monotheist like Cat Stevens, Cassius Clay, Murad Hoffman and many others who reap the benefits of Almighty The-God’s love in this world and the world hereafter.
I have many evangelical friends with whom I share teachings of Jesus Christ which Almighty The-God taught in through The-Qur’an. We seek similarities and try to make the surrounding more peaceful and co-existive.
January 12 - 2008
John 14-6:
You commented to me with the following text:
"I don't know what you mean by "1000 versions" of the Bible. There is *one* version of the Bible. There are many *translations* - this is because the original languages such as Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew are spoken by very few people today or are nearly extinct languages. Therefore, yes, the Bible has been "translated" into many, many languages".
First of all, all the translations (if you say so) would differ from the original because the original Aramaic words would not necessarily have the same words in English or the other translated languages. The Bible was first translated in Greek which is not the language of Jesus Christ and from Greek it got translated in to Latin and from there English became the largest translated version. You can imagine, the translated would never be the original. There exist 1000 versions of Bible today and many are in the process of evolution.
Secondly, all the translated versions differ in their key assertions with varying places of diversity though serum of the text may look the same. An ordinary Christian would not find the difference but a religious Christian alarmed by the difference would look for the different versions and would be displeased to see the diversity in the text as I am now.
If you want to pinpoint the differences on each version of the bible, I can do it for you but this is not the forum where time, space and tolerance for the writings will be allowed. However, radically different versions are for your reference to grasp if you can. Few of the examples are: -
21st Century King James Version, American Standard Version, Amplified Bible, Contemporary English Version, Darby Translation, Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, English Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible, King James Version, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, New International Reader's Version, New International Version, New International Version – UK, New King James Version, New Life Version, New Living Translation, The Message, Today's New International Version, Worldwide English (New Testament), Wycliffe New Testament, and Young's Literal Translation.
By the way, The-Qur’an has no different versions and it has one text that remains in Arabic original. However, for the greater understanding of the people, translations were permitted in different languages with a condition that original text shall stay side by side. Different translators could use different words for the same Arabic text and it could change the meaning. That would not be the justice for the Divine Book of The-God.
Whenever, a text from God is infringed with human hands and mind, it is no more a God’s word. That is where Christian zealots made human prophet as son of god, or god and all in one as trinity. The – God is absolute and no one can be like him from his creations.
khanson, the Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
khanson, please do not be angry, but accept the facts and the TRUTH:
Genesis 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.
Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter
Genesis 25:11
And it came to pass, after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac. And Isaac dwelt at Beer Lahai Roi.
Genesis 25:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter
Exodus 3:15
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:14-16 (in Context) Exodus 3 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 6:8
And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’”
Exodus 6:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 6 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
Exodus 32:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 33:1
[ The Command to Leave Sinai ] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’
Exodus 33:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 33 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:41-43 (in Context) Leviticus 26 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, do not be angry, but accept the TRUTH!
Isaiah 7:13-14 (New King James Version)
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[b]
Footnotes:
b.) Isaiah 7:14 Literally God-With-Us
The message of all the prophets and messengers has been "THERE IS NO DEITY BUT THE-GOD AND I AM THE MESSENGER OF GOD". Such a message started by Adam who told this to everyone of his children born to him and such was the message of Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus and of Muhammad (PBUT) where the coming of human messengers finalised.
Today there are seven billion humans stuck to their theory of religions but the truth is the one who worships ONE-GOD, the God of Adam. Other than The-God, other deities are human creations and The-Creator Lord The-God would not forgive such transgressors and idolators.
People shall worship The-Creator not his creatures - that makes genuine sense.
Well, every human got a choice, whatever choice one makes, faces the consequence in this world and on the Day of Judgement. May God Help Us All (A'men).
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
I don't know where khanson get the idea that God is talking about mohamed or Ishmael. It is clear that He is speaking to the Levites about Jesus. Jesus held many titles, counsellor, prince of peace, etc. including the title of God.
Jesus is the one who God is referring to in Deuteronomy when he says, "I will put my words in his Mouth". And Jesus claims to be speaking exactly what God told him, over and over. Start with the Gospel of John:
John 8:13-30:
The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."
25"Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
khanson--
I did not mean to confuse you. The misunderstanding here is the very wide gulf between what I know and what you know. Let me see if I can explain this concisely. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. The Messiah, who he would be, the signs of his birth, his kingdom, his teaching, his authority, his relationship with the Father, etc, are all spelled out in detailed prophecies in the Old Testament.
The Messiah was to be a prophet, priest and king. The Jews had had prophet-priests (Moses), prophet-kings (David), etc, but never a prophet, priest and king. This is what Moses meant in Deuteronomy when he said one "greater" than himself would come. This is the Messiah. The role of the Messiah is prophet, priest and king. The *identity* of the Messiah, who he would be, where he would come from, that was all up for grabs. The Jews knew he would be very different. He would be unlike any other man. They knew he would be born in Bethlehem. He would be a descendant of David. Etc, etc, etc. But they were confused by other prophecies. In Daniel the Messiah is shown to not just be man, but the Son of God. He is shown to not only be one who will be prophet, priest and king, but he will carry the authority, glory and sovereign power of God himself. Yet, ironically, Isaiah says the Messiah will actually come in the role of a suffering servant, who will save his people from their sins and, as Daniel says, usher in a kingdom that will never have an end.
No one understood how all these things could come together in one man, until Jesus appeared. It was he who fulfilled the prophecies, and it was in his life and death and resurrection that the first Christians understood this. Jesus himself explained it to his disciples after his resurrection. The disciples in turn explained it to others. Paul spread this truth to every synagogue he entered throughout the Mediterranean.
I implore you to read Isaiah 53, just for starters, as there is no more direct prophecy of Christ that you can find. I defy any reasonable person to deny that it is about Christ. It's so specific that some people tried to claim it was written by Christians after the fact until the Nag Hamadi library (might have been Dead Sea Scrolls actually) turned up a copy of Isaiah written something like 200 years before Christ. And there was Isaiah 53 exactly as we have it today. Oops.
khanson--
You sound really confused, here. Or at least whatever you've been told by your Imams, or what you've read, has given you strange information that is not based on facts or evidence, none whatsoever.
I don't know what you mean by "1000 versions" of the Bible. There is *one* version of the Bible. There are many *translations* - this is because the original languages such as Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew are spoken by very few people today or are nearly extinct languages. Therefore, yes, the Bible has been "translated" into many, many languages.
I think, perhaps, you are confused because you misunderstand the Christian concept of "inspiration" due to the fact that you think the Koran was dictated by God through Gabriel. Christians do not view inspiration in the same way. The men who wrote the New Testament were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit moving through them. This does not mean, nor has any orthodox Christian group ever believed, that this meant "divine dictation" - as if God were sitting at the persons side dictating word for word and they simply wrote it down. Or that God held their hand and moved the pen. No. This is not how Christians view inspiration. They were men "carried along by the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit *used* their own minds, their own talents, their own vocabulary, their own memories, insights, etc, to enable them to create what God wanted to convey to human beings. This means that what these men wrote, conveys their own emotions, their own memories, their own insights, their own frailties, etc. 2 Peter 1:21: "men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." or 2 Timothy 3:16-17:
"16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Your concept of inspiration is fundamentally different than the Christian concept of inspiration. Therefore it doesn't bother a Christian at all if they are reading a "translation" of God's word. It is assumed, or presumed, that the Holy Spirit can convey the truth of the original scripture in any language. And you will not find any scholarly disagreement with that from any orthodox branch of Christianity.
(to be continued)
john14-6
Strange comments that prophecy was for the coming of Prophet Jesus. While with one statement you claim Jesus as son of God, oops the god himself and with the other statement (now) now you say that Jesus was the promised Prophet of Old Testament.
Jesus was not like Moses and with all accounts Muhammad is like Moses what Bible forecasts. When God said "A Prophet among their bretheren {that bretheren is the sixty first generation of Abraham through Ishmael that is Muhammad}. When God said "like Unto Thee" Muhammad fits all historical accounts to fit into the Moses not The-Jesus. When God Says "I will put my words in his Mouth" it meant the Prophet will speak only what God would convey to him.
God conveyed Muhammad "The Whole Qur'an". It does not contain any word from Muhammad and the miracle in Muhammad was that he was unlettered. By the Mercy of God, he could remember "The-Qur'an" and by that Mercy: Millions of Muslims remember The-Qur'an and no one could adulterate or interfere with.
If Bible is to be remembered today, one must muster 1000 versions though no one has come forward yet who could have mustered even one version of Bible. This is the sign that humans have infringed with Bible and changed it.
What I conceive now is we would continue the written debate but may not reach an end point unless you guys read certain books specificallywritten on the issue. Following is the reference you guys should read first then we can go further on the issue:
CHOICE - Islam and Christianity - Volume One By Ahmed Deedat
CHOICE - Islam and Christianity - Volume Two By Ahmed Deedat
khanson--
No Christian or anyone else besides Muslims agrees that Mohammed was the "last" prophet. In fact, Mohammed was no prophet at all. If you want to get into a detailed discussion about this, I'll be glad to have one. However, your constant claims that the Bible is in error, or how can we know what it says because of all the translations, are just ridiculous challenges. I could go on for page after page about the reliability of the gospels, the accuracy of the gospels, the quality of the manuscript evidence, the numbers of copies of the manuscripts, their quality, textual criticism, etc, etc, etc. But this seems a needless recitation at this point. Christians know the facts, even if Muslims refuse to look. Just because Imam's say "the Christians' Bible is full of errors" or "how can they know which translation" this or that, doesn't carry any more authority than if they tell you sky isn't blue, and you agree with them. It doesn't change the *fact* that the sky is quite objectively blue. Christians have history, archaelogy, and *facts* on their side for the authenticity and truthfulness of their scripture. Muslims don't, in fact, have any of these on their side for the Koran.
Jesus called himself the "Alpha and the Omega", the beginning and the end. He is the *last* prophet, in the sense of Jewish prophetic tradition. There are no prophets after Jesus, because he was the Messiah. Jesus authenticated his prophecy, his authority, and his claims with miracles. Mohammed did nothing of the kind. He was not a prophet except by his own declaration.
Prophet: Look what Almighty The-God said in Bible:
"And as for Ish'-ma-el, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation {Old Testament - Genesis: 18: 20}.
The children of Abraham through Ishmael are great nation of Arabs. But you are distracting your consciousness and deny what Bible said about the first born son of Messenger Prophet Abraham. Do not behave like the one who is filled with hatred against Ishmael. Ishmael was the son of Abraham and a prophet like Isaac and we do not differentiate among them.
Because The Last Messenger Prophet Muhammad is the sixty first child of Abraham through Ishmael, you guys discriminate against him. Well, Muhammad is The Last Messenger Prophet of God and The-Qur'an is the last Testament of God. Even you would continue to deny the truth, but the true stands tall till we meet on the day of Judgement. Almighty The-God would decide the truth on that day and the denyers would only lick their wounds to hellfire for their deniance.
Jester--Aren't you confusing intolerance with a claim on truth? Jesus claimed to know God in a way that no one else did/does. From that claim, he claimed that only his offer of grace with repentance and commitment in trust was sufficient to bring one into relationship with God. How is a claim of that kind intolerant?
Continued to khanson:
Colossians 1:15 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Please note: This Scripture is referring to Jesus Christ our Messiah.
John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
Footnotes:
John 1:5 Or overcome
Please note again, this Scripture is also referring to Jesus Christ THE Messiah as well.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
John 14:9 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
khnason, you please don't get angry, but you please face the truth. This is what Jesus Christ the Messiah says:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
khanson--
I'm quite aware of the truth about