A prominent theologian expressed concerns this week about the recent Christian response to a historic Muslim letter in which signers appeared unclear about their Christian identity and different beliefs of God.
Today's Christian News Online - The Christian Post
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
CP HOME
> Education > Theology
Influential Theologian Troubled by Christian-Muslim Dialogue
By
Michelle A. Vu
Christian Post Reporter
Sat, Jan. 12 2008 10:26 AM EST
[-] Text [+]
Comments
For Christians, Muslims are funny people. They said Muhammad is their prophet and is a perfect human being. But why oh why does every Muslim after their prayer (salat) always plead to their God Allah to give Muhammad the high place in his grave, a position that was promised to Muhammad during his lifetime.
Please check out this verse from Sahih Bukhari, and I guarantee you the translation is perfect
Allahumma rabba hazihi ad-da'wah at-tammah wa as-salati al-qa;imah, ati Muhammadan al-wasilah wa al-fadhilah wab'athhu maqaman mahmudan allzi wa'adtah (Sahih Bukhari)
To Khanson and all the Muslim liar, you are the doubt casting serpent of Genesis 3: 4-5
Why would anybody want to convert to Islamism when Muhammad himself cannot get to this good position in his grave? Certainly very funny.
Muhammad himself is just another dead people and is going to answer to God about his actions
Galahad, and John 14-6: Continue teaching the Truth in love. Yeshua is Messiah!!!!!!! Maranatha!!!!!!!!!!!!!
john14-6
There are some good Christians who do not agree with you.
Galahad
None of the Arab and Islamic scholars claim that Jesus Christ was an Arab. Certainly he was born to a Jewish lady Maryam (Mary). Islam did not appear in the seventh century but it has been the religion of all the Prophets starting with that of Adam; the first man created by Almighty the-God. It is a fact of life and of history that Adam was a Muslim and he practiced Islam (Shalom/Peace) with Almighty The-God.
Who is that Moubarak who wants to change the history to suit his views. Could you give some references?
Islam does not say that Christian and Jews adulterated the-bible but The-Qur’an says they did. Well you can refute the charges but who could refute the charges made by The-God in His Last testament The-Qur’an. It means you cannot blatantly refuse it but see it yourself in 1000 versions of bible co-written at least forty different human authors.
Arab did not appear in the seventh century they were before the times of Abraham Certainly Ishmael Ben Abraham married in the Arab tribe of Mecca. Mind you Ishmael was also not an Arab but a descendent of Abraham. The first wife of Moses was Arab; this wife is the same lady when Moses received the first confirmation of his being Prophet in Tuwa Valley (Sinai).
John 14-6
Islam scholars say that the prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ himself are Muslims and that they have taught Islam before Muhammad was born and they say too that Jesus Christ was Arab!
That is complete nonsense! Islam appears in seventh century after Jesus Christ! After and not before! There are 700 years between both! Jesus Christ was not An Arab Jew but a Jew period! Our Hebrew inheritance and our Christian inheritance are ours, they are not Arabs!.. Muhammad was born in 570 after Jesus Christ and died in 632 after Jesus Christ….Do you know that Moubarak has made efforts upon one verse of the Quran to prove that the Virgin Mary was not a Jew but Arab?!!! Do you know that Islam says that Adam and Eve are Muslims? How can it be? I knew that sometimes there existed retroactive laws I didn’t know that a religion could take another religion inheritance and desecrate it and say blatantly that it is theirs by their God’s Law… Islam says that Christians and Jews have adulterate the Bible but the Jews existed and lived in Israel since the beginning of times, and the Bible is that old too …and Arabs only appeared in History in the seventh century.
If you have ever read the book "1984” written by Orwell, you are familiar with the concept of the department of adulteration of the History...Read Bat Ye’or.
"There exists no evidence that the New Testament came from the purported original apostles or anyone else that had seen Jesus."
You have some reading to do, this statement shows a blatant lack of scholarship. Check out "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" or "The Case for Christ"
khanson, your information about the Bible is just wrong. You should look at what real scholars say and not militant atheists or Muslims say. The epistles were written no later than 60-70 AD, and the Gospels are nearly unanimously believed to have been written before the end of the end of the first century.
Anyways, if you challenge Jesus' own claim of divinity, then you have to explain why the Jews were so outraged by it, to the point of calling for His death?
As well, the Bible that we have is the most historically attested written work from all of antiquity. If you deny the truthfulness of the Bible, you might as well deny all of antiquity.
As well, Muhammad cannot just come along and say, "Oh the Christians corrupted the Bible" Because it only takes one more step for me to say, "Oh the Muslims corrupted the Quran".
And, the vast amount of evidence is against your position, the death and Resurrection are the best explanation for what happened. And you cannot just assume that Paul made up the Trinity, Paul was deeply involved with the other apostles such as Peter and John, and Paul would not have lasted long if he was spreading false rumors.
First of all Khanson, you need to explain why the early Christians worshipped Jesus, and why Jesus accepted their worship. If He was not God then He would have been the worst of all sinners for this, but we know this is not true. Also, if He wasn't put on trial and crucified for the raidical claim of being God, then why was he? Thirdly, what do you make of Jesus' statement when He says, "Before Abraham I AM" Jesus also never came out and said He was the Christ, rather He gave His followers enough information to infer it.
khanson--
You called me a liar, and said I was spreading "Christian lies" about Mohammed when I said he ordered assassinations and then reveled in the news of those assassinations. Then I posted to you the authoritative hadiths from your own traditions wherein Mohammed is shown to have ordered assassinations and then rejoiced in the results (I only posted two examples, there are many, many more). You never responded to this. Why?
Why do you ignore the truth and then go on to post long winded theological statements from the Koran? Please stop quoting all this Islamic mumbo-jumbo to me from the Koran. That is not an answer. Because I do not recognize the Koran as authoritative in or about anything. In my opinion, the Koran is a book of lies written by an evil man who may have been under the control of demons or the devil (I believe he was demon possessed, myself). I have given you plenty of arguments to prove this point.
Now, if you cannot have a rational discussion based on logic and reason, without constantly quoting the Koran, then there is nothing further to discuss. You are the only one here who thinks the Koran is of God. Yet I have presented you evidence from your own faith and traditions that Mohammed was not a righteous man, nor was he a prophet of God. He probably received the Koran from the devil or demonic powers (as I have already laid out in a prior post). No one who is a prophet of God orders "assassinations". God is not an assassin. Assassination is *murder* (and it is cowardly) - which is directly against the sixth commandment - you do believe in the Ten Commandments, don't you?. Your prophet could not be an assassin - order assassinations and *permit deceit to be involved* in the murder of another human being - and still be from God (since he never repented of any of this according to the hadiths). When David committed a murder, the prophet Nathan was sent to rebuke him and call him to repentance. (And God punished David severely for his actions.)
khanson, I urge you to consider what you believe and the religion you are following. Use your intellect and reason. No man like Mohammed, who did what Mohammed did, could be from God. You know this is true. I make this argument from your own religious sources. I speak the truth to you in love. Please consider what I am saying.
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
According to holy scripture, the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is the Comforter. Notice that the Comforter comes in the name of JESUS, will teach all things, and will bring to remembrance what JESUS said.
Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Notice how the Comforter is to help one witness. Witness who and why? Jesus Christ, because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, the only begotten Son of God, who offers redemption for all.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Khanson,
Firstly, Christians are strict monotheists, you show a lack of understanding of the concept of the Trinity if you deny this. Secondly we have many, many, learned theologians who reject the Quran and accept the Bible. You are talking about interpretations and you have to give a good reason why anyone should accept your interpretation over another.
Second, you are right that Jesus did talk about immediately sending the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, as is evidenced from Pentecost. The context is clear, it is most certainly not Muhammad.
"Whosoever he may have been should have been kept as a role model for whole of humanity till the day of Judgement. "
Where did you get this from? The Bible doesn't say this anywhere and the idea of one who comforts does not connote that he should do anything other than aid. Your liberality with words is somewhat difficult to accept.
For that matter you last quote says quite well why Muhammad certainly cannot be the one, is Muhammad alive and with us today? I do not mean his teachings, I mean him. The verse did not say that his teachings would be with you forever, but that the comforter would be with you forever. This is definitely the Holy Spirit.
Islam
"religious system revealed by Muhammad," 1818, from Arabic, lit. "submission" (to the will of God), from root of aslama "he resigned, he surrendered, he submitted," causative conjunction of salima "he was safe," and related to salam "peace."
Muslim means one who surrenders.
Khanson, Islam literally means submission, at best it means peace after submission. But of course this is not real peace, it is only forced peace. I can be at peace with anyone who is completely submissive to me.
Chris333
You are the denier without knowledge: Islam means peace and you ask any Islamic scholar, you would be refuted. If you persist on denial, who could guide you: None.
Khanson, Islam means submission it does not mean peace... you do not seem to be learning this.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Galahad
Truthfully Correct my dear brother in Abraham's faith. I as a monotheist have no quarrel with my Christian brehtheren when they bring and highlight truth from The-Bible. I am also gifting you the following verses from The-Bible and The-Qur'an which are unanimous.
Jesus Christ in Islam is a Messenger of God who had been sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new scripture, the Injeel (Gospel). Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will.
Islam rejects that Jesus was God or the son of God, stating that he was a human who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread The-God's message of "peace" which in Hebrew refers as "Shalom" and in Arabic refers as "Islam". The basic evidence of that assertion is from the bible which is in itself explanatory: -
"Peace (Islam) I leave with you; My peace (Islam) I give unto you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" [New Testament (21st Century King James Version) John - 14: 27].
When Jesus Christ (PBUH) left the world for heavens, he left Islam (peace) so that children of Israel could worship Almighty The-God. Later on 610 CE, Muhammad (PBUH) was honoured with same message of peace (Islam) which evident from the following verse of The-Qur’an: -
"Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed "Peace" (Islam) as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then The-God is Forgiver, Merciful" {The Qur’an – Surah Al Maa’idah (Chapter: The Table spread) 05: 03}.
Khanson
The laws that Moses has received from God are the ten Commandments. Here they are:
1st: I am the Lord your God; you shall not have false gods before Me.
2nd: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3rd: Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4th:Honor your father and your mother.
5th:You shall not kill.
6th;You shall not commit adultery.
7th;You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9th; You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife.
10th: You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods.
And Jesus Christ added another one:” Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself” Mathew 22;39 And what is to love for the Christians?
The apostle John explains it in his second epistle:”And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it”.
So pay real attention: The 5th commandment says ;You shall not kill.
It says; You shall not kill. IT does not say; you shall not kill but…well, it’s ok to kill the Unbelievers, it’s ok to murder and to behead your enemies, it’s ok to murder those who offend you…and that proves beyond any doubt that our God is not Allah.
Galahad
You ought to read The-Qur'anic verses with contextuality. For every circumstance Muhammad (PBUH) faced, chapters and verses were revelaed for his and his companions guidance.
Imagine, when Muhammad was stoned by people of Taif, he prayed for them. When Meccans cut off his food supplies for a year, he survived with his companions on lowest ration possible. But and when his life was threatened with death, Almighty The-God would not have allowed him to die at that time. Then the permission was granted to fight against the enemy: -
"The permission is granted to you (Thou Muhammad) in order to fight against those who oppress you and Almighty The-God would grant you the victory" (The-Qur'an).
"At the same time, not a single Muslim is allowed to kill any non-combatant otherwise it will be like killing whole of humankind". This type verse is also available in The-Qur'an but sometimes so called Muslims transgress and they face the dire consequences accordingly.
maranatha7593
Because you have not intended to read The-Qur'an, and without reading it you have already rejected it. You did not seek truth from Lord The-God who gives the guidance. I am only capable of conveying the truth - your intentions would fulfil your desire. The question is whether your intention is to find the and whether you are in search of the truth.
How could you reject Book of The-God which is untouched by human interference. Do not ever be inspired by devil, devilish dreams and of devilish spirits. They can talk to you, interfere with your thinkings and overwhelm you to commit your internal desire - do not fall prey to devil.
If you love Jesus Christ, pray to Almighty The-God alone and seek The-God's guidance on the status of Jesus Christ in the court of God. I am certain that Almighty The-God would guide you if your intentions are to find truth but the truth.
khanson, the Spirit of God who lives in my spirit does not witness to me that The-Qur'an is the word of God.
Khanson
I want here to clarify some issues :
Point one: The verses I have quoted exist in the Qu’ran.
Point two: Those verses justify violence against the enemies of Islam whatever they are.
Point three: You will never find such indictments to violence, to murder and to behead your enemies in the New Testament said by Jesus Christ
Point four: On the contrary Jesus Christ told us to love our enemies and not to fight with violence “for all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword” ( Mathew 26;52)
Point five: Never has the New Testament justified the atomic bombs nor the war.
maranatha7593
The fact is in The-Qur'an - you will find the answers in this Last Testament of God.
khanson: "Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet."
Do you assume this does not apply to Mohammed?
khanson: "Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's so called crucifixion. According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet. St Paul who resisted Jesus Christ in his life time, all of sudden became the spoiler of Christianity by declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity. No doubt, he is the founder of Christianity."
Except for the opening sentence and the general statements, "Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet", this is Scripturally inaccurate.
1) We don't know for sure that Paul ever personally met Jesus Christ while He was here on earth, so we can't say for certain that Paul 'resisted Him' then. We DO know that Paul was 'consenting to Stephen's death' when he was stoned for being a disciple of the Christ.
2) Paul was 'the spoiler of Christianity'? According to the NT, he carried the Gospel of Jesus Christ to more countries than any other apostle.
3) This statement: "declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity" is also inaccurate IF you're inferring that no other apostle declared Jesus to be the Son of God or and that the triune nature was God was not shown in the Gospels. The other apostles did in fact show that Jesus was the Son of God, and the triune nature of God was shown clearly at Jesus' baptism. Also - throughout the Gospels, Jesus was constantly speaking of His Father, and in John, chapters 13-16, He gave extensive teaching on the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the apostles, as He knew He would soon be returning to the Father.
4) Paul was definitely NOT the 'founder of Christianity'. The early apostles who walked with Jesus established faith in Jesus as the Son of God wherever Jesus sent them. They and women who had also known Jesus proclaimed Him as the resurrected Son of God after the Resurrection. The resurrected Jesus walked and talked with His disciples for a number of days in His glorified body, and gave final instructions for the fledgling church to wait for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost - which they did. Paul did not participate in any of this, yet the church was flourishing by this time. He was in fact persecuting the early church when Jesus met him on his way to Damascus. We know that his purpose was to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles, and he did.
Chris333
I find you a willing person to talk. When a Muslim talks, he should talk about Islam what The-Qur'an says about it. For a Monotheist believer like me, The-Qur'an was never corrupted by human incursions but it purely stands as "The Wordings of God" conveyed to Muhammad through Archangel Gabriel. Almighty The-God promises that this book is protected against human and jinn corruptions until The Judgement Day.
Muhammad was never lettered but an honest and moral man amidst a corrupt society. Muhammad (PBUH) was born amidst a polytheistic (unbeliever) society. He was saddened and sick of the corrupt society around him. One night, while he was meditating in the Hira cave, the Angel Gabriel (PBUH) came to him. The Angel aroused him and his mighty voice reverberated in his ears. He was perplexed and did not know what to do. He was asked to read. He replied: "I cannot read". The Angel repeated three times asking Muhammad (PBUH) to read, but he replied the same answer. Finally the Angel asked and Muhammad (PBUH) read:
"Read in the name of your Lord, who created man from a clot. Read in the name of your God, the Most Bountiful, who taught by means of the pen, and taught man what he did not know" {The Qur'an – Surah Al Alaque (Chapter: The Clot) 96: 1-5}.
If you ask question starting from here, I would appreciate it.
"Certainly war on terror can be justified if and when it targets only terrorists not innocent Muslims. "
Agreed, Khanson.
Here are some things for you to think about, a name is just what you call someone. Suppose you and I are talking and you say, "George Washington was an admirable man" and I reply, "Yes, he sure was! I get inspiration every time I think of how he was the first african-zen buddhist to go into space! He was surely a great man!" You then say, "No, no, George Washington was the first president of the US, not what you say." But I reply, "It doesn't matter, his name was 'George Washington' and that means he is the same guy!"
Obviously this is illogical. Rethink your argument. Paul most likely did not know Christ personally, but he was accepted by all of the apostles who did, and he had some encounter with Christ. Luke approves of him, and Luke wrote one of the Gospels. Anyways, if you are going to claim that the NT was corrupted, then you have to provide an alternative that is "the right one" or closer to the right one. I have no problem with debating with Muslims, but they have some assumptions which make intelligent debate literally impossible.
Okay, Didymus, I accept your apology, even though you didn't just "make me feel" like you put words in my mouth, you did put words in my mouth. Secondly, yes if we are not honest with Muslims then we can have peace. If we allow them to mock Christ and threaten us with terrorism if we even utter the name of Muhammad in a wrong way, then we can have peace. But peace is not everything. Paul did talk to the Romans, and he did try to find common ground for dialogue, but he never gave one example where he reached out to somebody else, without mentioning the faith in Christ, in its true sense. There is nothing wrong about telling Muslims all the points we have in common, as long as you tell them what your faith really is, and not just generics. Besides that, lets just say we do only tell them what we agree on, as soon as we tell them the truth of Christ, they will say we lied, and they will go right back to not wanting peace with us. If they want to kill us for what we believe, then let them, but we are Christians, not politicians.
Also try thinking about what Christ said, that if any of us were embarrassed of Him, then He would be embarrassed of us. Omission is not justifiable. (Yes I realize we all make mistakes, we need to repent and follow the truth)
Galahad
You quote The-Qur'anic verses out of context. Those verses are against the enemies of Monotheism who staged a war against believers. No one kisses the attacking enemy.
What America did in Japan by droping atom bomb was not Christianity and in Vietnam, Korea are more examples. All such wars cannot be justified by Bible.
Certainly war on terror can be justified if and when it targets only terrorists not innocent Muslims.
Galahad
Alloh is an Arabic word which means The-God. No matter with what name you call your god, it shall be always Almighty The-God: The God of Adam.
Unfortunately, you guys invented the theory of god's incarnation. Christians have innovated Jesus Christ as incarnation of God while every hindu diety is innovated as incarnation of God. Hindu's dieties are Rama, Krishna, Shiva and Hanuman are all said to be the incarnation of God. Then Buddhist claim Buddha to be the incarnation of God.
You have a lot of competition in that field and every zealot of an innovated theory claims to be true. My only contention is why Almighty The-God should incarnate when He is The-Creator Lord of the universe. He commands and ther His command is fulfilled. He sends human Messengers like Noah, Abraham Moses and Jesus, why such innovations of incarnation.
Christians forget that God said: Thou shall not draw graven image of Lord The-God. I see in churches the graven image of Jesus who is erroneously considered god or son of god. There is no logic.
Forgive me if I hurt anyone's feeling, it is just an exchange of knowledge.
Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's so called crucifixion. According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet. St Paul who resisted Jesus Christ in his life time, all of sudden became the spoiler of Christianity by declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity. No doubt, he is the founder of Christianity.
Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from man, but by "the revelation of Jesus Christ". Fourteen epistles in the New Testament are traditionally attributed to Paul, though in some cases the authorship is disputed. They are believed to be the earliest-written books of the New Testament. Thus the books written by the human knowledge could not be certainly from God, as such, such writings cannot be understood as the word of God.
Paul's influence on Christian thinking arguably has been more significant than any other New Testament author. Paul was born in Tarsus, Cilicia in Asia Minor, or modern-day Turkey, under the name Saul, "an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the eighth day".
Allah is not the God of Christians . Think a little about it……Jesus Christ said: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44) but The Qu’ran said:” When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and when you have laid them law, bind your captives firmly” Qu’ran 47; 4 and there is more!... In Qu’ran 2:191 it is said: “ and slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter” and also: “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know” Qu´ran 8:60…How can this God Allah be the same as our Lord Jesus Christ? Never and never!...no way! Jesus said to love our enemies and to pray for them not to agree with them and not to apologise for being a Christian… Read the Qu’ran and compare with the Gospels…and stop apologising and be proud of your Christianity.
theotrek, when the entirety of the Bible is taken in context, it is very easy to see that the Christians' God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - as clearly shown throughout scripture.
Again:
But the bottom line is, Muslims do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe He was simply a prophet who preceded Mohammed, whom they believe to be the 'greatest' prophet.
There is an obelisk which stands in front of the main Muslim mosque in Mecca on which these words are inscribed:
"There is one God, and he has no son."
I have no problem with peace talks as long as Christians are not expected to compromise the essential truths of the Christian faith. In truth, it would seem that Muslims themselves should have initiated a peace movment years (decades) ago, if they were not in agreement with the PLO's, Al Queda's, and other terrorists' activities.
khanson...Not only died God(JESUS) die, but He rose one the third day to sit on His throne in Heaven. He glorified Himself and fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. This proves that Jesus was God just as Isaiah 43:11 says - I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. There are many verses that prove that Jesus is God. If you want I can elaborate more. Lord bless you.
Maranatha--
The doctrine of the Trinity was elaborated over centuries in the early church councils. Sure, it has some Biblical backing, but the Bible does not lay out the specifics. Is it three Gods? Is God one? How is Jesus God? Does Jesus proceed from Father or Spirit? Did Jesus originate in the incarnation? How are the Spirit and Son distinguished/intertwined? These issues were not yet in discussion in the first century. They were argued and discussed much later, when there was time for those kinds of discussions.
[Note that John speaks of the Word as the actor in creation, while Genesis speaks of the Spirit/Breath of God. Those are intertwined concepts in Greek and Hebrew, as they both proceed from the mouth. Paul mentions Christ indwelling the believer and in other places the Spirit. The Bible is not quite as specific s we would like.]
khanson--
While I understand Jesus as God, he is completely God in terms of character, not in terms of dimension. In geometric terms, it would be like a line intersected by a plane. The line of space time intersecting with the plane of God's presence. The line cannot "comprehend" (encapsulate) all that is God, yet God is present at that point of intersection.
Physically, Jesus dies, yet God still lives. While God is on the cross incarnate as Jesus, God is also beyond the limits of a physical body. That is what we refer to as the mystery on the incarnation. It is not three gods. It is God becoming visible and participating in human life, even while transcending the physical universe.
jlcboi23
didymus
If your god died then you never had GOD. Imagine if god dies then who runs this universe - the whole system of this universe will collapse. Whether one believes whatever form of human made god, gods and goddesses there is and there shall be always ONE-GOD. Almighty The-God has following charactersitics: -
"The-GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great" {The Qur’an – Surah Al Baqarah (Chapter: The Heifer) 02: 255}.
I agree with you didymus, Jesus(the ONE TRUE GOD) dies for us. Without having His blood on our life then we are still in our sins. He died to redeem us from them so that we could be with Him(Jesus-God.) There is no other salvation other than this.
khanson,
You said, “God Never Dies.”
Well, I’m happy to say that my God did.
theotrek, the scripture passage in John which details Jesus' baptism does not just give 'rudimentary details' - it is a clear picture of the three-in-one nature of God. Genesis 1 also shows this picture.
But the bottom line is, Muslims do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe He was simply a prophet who preceded Mohammed, whom they believe to be the 'greatest' prophet.
There is an obelisk which stands in front of the main Muslim mosque in Mecca - these words are inscribed on it:
"There is one God, and he has no son."
I have no problem with peace talks as long as Christians are not expected to compromise the essential truths of the Christian faith. In truth, it would seem that Muslims themselves should have initiated a peace movment years (decades) ago, if they were not in agreement with the PLO's, Al Queda's, and other terrorists' activities.
maranatha7593--Doctrine of the trinity does not speak of a three-fold "nature" of God. Rather, it is a three-fold "appreciation" of God. It speaks to God's indivisibility in nature, yet our recognizing God in different "persona" (masks). In one sense, yes, that is very different from Islam. On the other hand, the uniqueness of God (indivisibility, oneness) is in accord with Islam. Muslims generally react to a popular Christian conception more in keeping with a Tri-theity, rather than trinity. The Bible's emphasis is always on God's union, even when it shows us God in various portraits.
Yes, you can see the rudimentary basis for Trinity is the passage you mentioned. The other passages are additions to the original Greek texts of the NT (the ones the Jehovah's Witnesses leave out). I do not claim that Trinity is alien to the Bible, just that it was not elaborated by the first century writers.
theotrek - we do know that Muslims outright reject Jesus' claim to be the Son of God, God in the flesh who came to dwell among us (John 1). When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, we see the threefold nature of God: The Son being baptized, the Holy Spirit descending upon Him in the form of a dove, and the Father speaking out of Heaven.
That is completely different from Allah, is not what Muslims believe about their god.
Billy Baker...to comment on your comment about Jesus being on the right hand of God. The right hand means to be in power. God was Jesus in the flesh whom He gave all His power. The bible also says that he emptied Himself which means that He was flesh just as we are.
theotrek,
You mention, "Unfortunately, we are much closer to Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper," than accepting Jesus' answer to "Who is my neighbor?"
It's sad to hear, but it is so very true.
"Inasmuch as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all" definitely does not mean that we must convert people to Christ before we can have dialog. Unfortunately, we are much closer to Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper," than accepting Jesus' answer to "Who is my neighbor?" No Jew would have accepted a Samaritan on equal religious footing, anymore than Mohler is accepting Muslims for conversation about peace.
Chris333,
I apologize if I made you feel like I was putting words in your mouth, I didn’t mean to do that. What I’m trying to get at is this: Those 138 Muslim clerics aren’t interested in the gospel of Christ, they don’t want to convert to Christianity. Their goal in trying to open a dialogue with the Christian community is not to try to become Christians, but rather to find some kind of common ground in order to create a more peaceful coexistence between our two communities.
You said, “Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe.” That’s true (and ultimately I think that would mean that if they don’t repent, and believe the good news of Christ, they will go to hell). BUT, is this all we can bring to the discussion table? If they are not interested in the gospel (and they’re not) can’t we still talk with one another to try to resolve things peacefully between us?
It is this that I would contend that the 300 Christian leaders in the article mentioned above are trying to do. They’re just trying to take the 138 Muslim clerics on their word, and find ways to live in peace (Romans 12:18). They are not “downplaying or even just omitting the Gospel”.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Every human born in this world inherits a right to choose his / her destiny. Not everyone makes a righteous choice but a right of choice is available to all. In order to make a righteous choice, one must consider life in this world and the life hereafter in to account. The choice shall be to revere unto ONE who creates, never dies and lives in eternity that is Almighty The-God.
When a baby is born and until the age of puberty that baby becoming person does not intellectually decide what would be his / her religious destination. It is not necessary that the childhood religious education would solely affect one’s future decision but it does leave an impact which influences the final conviction and pronouncement. Every human when uses the knowledge for conviction; it must be based on sound reasoning. The knowledge which defies failures is correct knowledge to follow.
When I was born, I was not conscious enough to make a choice between theism and atheism. Later, when I reached to puberty, I made a choice to become a Muslim meaning worshipping one God (Alloh) and following the path of Muhammad (SAW) The Last Messenger Prophet of The-God (Alloh). Though during my childhood I followed what my parents followed, later I started following what I was guided by my Lord The-God to be correct.
For a human who is not born in a Muslim family that choice would mean a perquisite to learn about Islam. The choice of Islam and to become Muslim can be comprehensive if one learns it comparatively and intellectually.
Billy Baker--I believe that what jlcboi23 is getting at is the fact that the Bible does not clearly delineate God as Father, Spirit, and Son in quite the same way that popular Christianity does. It rather places much more stress on the unity of God than in distinctions among the "persons" of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is post-biblical in its formulation. It is not directly taught in the Bible. Rather, it is a doctrine that attempts to explain the Biblical language regarding God in terms of Father, Son, and Spirit. If you want to get more technical, God is also mother hen, king, lover, etc. Trinity addresses the three greatest "pictures" of God in the Bible and deals with how they are inter-related. The language of the three "Persons" of God refers to the Latin, "persona", referring to the mask used by one actor to represent a character in a play. (One actor, multiple characters/presentations).
Chris333- "Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe." And what others of us are saying is that you don't have to attack people to share God's love. It is only afterward the effective sharing of God's love that the rest of the gospel will be heard. When Paul was imprisoned in Philippi, when did he ever confront the jailer with all of his sin and wrong beliefs? He didn't. He just declared his confidence and peace in Christ, going out of his way to protect the jailer's life.
didymus, you should stop putting words into my text. I never said to tell Muslims that they were going to "fry in hell". I said we need to show them our love. Do you have a problem with that? Or do you have a problem with the necessary exclusivity of the Truth? Or perhaps you think it is good to just tell people that God loves them and accepts them no matter what they do, believe, or say?
Are you are assuming we use some deceptive technique of tricking Muslims into thinking we are not trying to tell them of the Truth of Christ, and then once they have gotten our trust we pull out our real intentions? This is intellectual and spiritual cowardice. Yes we must be tactful in what we say, and how we relate with, not onlly Muslims, but all people, but a Christian should never comprise the truth for friendship. I believe Muslims, and all people, would appreciate honesty over a fake smile.
jlcboi23: I believe in GOD the Father......
Q. 10. What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead?
A. It is proper to the Father to beget the Son,[36] and to the Son to be begotten of the Father,[37] and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.[38]
[36] Hebrews 1:5-6, 8. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.... But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[37] John 1:14, 18. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.... No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[38] John 15:26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. Galatians 4:6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
jlcboi23: Farther argument taken from the Westminster Larger Catechism
Q. 8. Are there more Gods than one?
A. There is but one only, the living and true God.[34]
[34] Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Jeremiah 10:10. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Q. 9. How many persons are there in the Godhead?
A. There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.[35]
[35] 1 John 5:7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Matthew 3:16-17. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 28:19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 2 Corinthians 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. John 10:30. I and my Father are one.
jlcboi23: I enjoyed reading this, however I do not agree with you, and put it to you
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" Acts 7:55-56
Perhaps Stephen was a little confused, or Trinitarians have changed the scripture to support their argument.
Chris333,
Is it truly the only way we can talk to Muslims is to basically tell them, “Here’s the gospel, now accept it and convert, or fire in hell.” What if they don’t want to convert? Do we continue talking with them to try and make a more peaceful world, or do we just tell them, “fry in hell.”
These Muslims making this overture to the Christian community aren’t interested in converting to Christianity, and they know we aren’t interested in converting to Islam. So does that mean we can’t talk with one another to resolve things peacefully between us?
A.S. Mathew, I agree, we do need to show others the Gospel of Christ in love. The problem is when people want to show people love while downplaying or even just omitting the Gospel of Christ. I think that is what this article is about. Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe.
A.S.Mathew--Kudos for sharing the love of Christ is a way that spell love!
As to theologians, while I would not count Mohler as a good example, there is value in theology and theologizing. He just seems to have a political beef and bias to say what will gain him a hearing and importance within the new SBC fundamentalist regime. I don't agree that theology is causing problems. Rather, bad theology (fundamentalist mindset) is spreading ill will and being a barrier to the gospel. It is amazing how many people want to hit others over the head with their theology as though that will help them understand the love of God for all.
How to reach a Muslim with the love of Christ? Simply open a dialouge and present the gospel
of Christ. While I walked throug the local mall, I met two foreigners working in the mall. I started talking with them, both of them are Muslims, one from Iran and the other from Egypt. Every time
when I meet them, they want to hear more about Jesus Christ, and slowly I presented to them
about the unique personality of Christ.
When some ultra-radial-fundamental Christians show an attitude of super holiness and a
dislike for the believers of other religions, I simply ask the question; how to reach them for
Christ? The answer is not abstract. Until we interact with the sinners and non-Chrstians
in the highways and any other place, they will never come to know Jesus Christ. Don't
expect them to visit our Churches or call toll free numbers after watching the Christian
T.V. programs because very rarely it will happen. Indeed, great theoligians do less soul winning but talk more elaborately in theology, and too much theology is causing great
indigestion in the evangelization process, because their speciality is theology but not soul winning.
john14-6,
And just when I was going to share with you the best Christian response to Islam I’ve found… you leave. Man… what’s up with that?
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/2008/01/best-christian-response-ive-found-to.html
Well, at least others will be able to enjoy reading the testament of Christian de Chergé.
Jesus Christ = The Hope of Glory
Allah = no hope at all
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have many brethren who have been Muslims and have found the joy of a life with Jesus Christ, and the one thing I hear from them is that; they have never known such love or joy or peace as they have in having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
One does not have a personal relationship with Allah.
In Jesus Christ, we have eternal life, but with Allah, no one is every really sure what their future is. Jesus Christ loves the whole world, John 3:16; and I don't think it's wrong for us to reach out in love as Jesus did and talk with our muslim neighbors.
Who was Jesus talking with when HE walked this earth, HE wasn't suppose to talk with Samaritans and yet He did, He was not to hang out with the unclean and yet HE did and HE even touched them.
The church needs to let The HOLY SPIRIT lead, after all the Lord told us to wait upon the Holy Spirit and HE will lead us into all truth.
The Lord God tells us "as much as it depends on you, be at peace with all men; but especially those of the household of God." I see so many "christians" attack others and believers too, how does this honor the Lord God?
Every day we have the opportunity to let JESUS shine out of us; after all it is HIS church; not ours and if we're only Christians within the walls of our own local church, how is that part of the great commission?
We are to be Jesus Christ to the world, that includes our Muslim neighbors!
46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.
47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.
49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.
50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.
52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.
53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.
54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.
55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.
56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.
57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.
58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.
59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.
60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.
31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.
32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.
35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.
36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.
37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.
38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.
39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.
41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.
44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.
16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.
17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.
18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.
19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8
20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.
24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.
26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.
27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.
29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.
30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.
I wanted to comment on the "trinity."
1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.
2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.
3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.
4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.
5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."
6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.
7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.
8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."
10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.
12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.
13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.
14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.
15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.
john14-6,
Yes, they are extreme Islamophobes. They paint with a very broad brush an irrational fear for all Muslims, and they actively promote a negative, and often violent, reaction to this fear that they create.
john14-6,
Mark Harding, the author of the article you quote, is an extreme Islamophobe. He is