Lutherans Plant Churches to Combat Membership Decline

Comments

• Chris333

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:25 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  Linda, (continued)
  
  In answering your third question about how much more unity not having denominations will bring I think it is good to bring in another point. First of all, all of the mainline denominations say this sort of thing: "As long as you believe in the main tenents of the Christian faith then you can be a true Christian, regardless of what denomination you are in (even Catholic if their faith is right). And most will say that a person from a different denomination can take part in communion as long as they have been baptized (excepting the Catholic church). So really we already have a good deal of unity in spirit and thought, the problem is the physical barriers. The church would practically speaking, be a lot more effective if it was united. It would provide a stronger front against the forces of Islam and secularism. And finally and most importantly, it is what God calls us to do. We cannot say, "Well I like the way things are" This is against Christianity and the Word of God.
  
  At last, yes you are probably right that there cannot be real unity (though I believe in faith there already is and always will be) but this does not mean that we should just give up, Peter and Paul certainly did not think this was the case. It is okay to go to a Lutheran or other denominational church, but I am pushing to end these barriers which are intrinsically against God.
  
  My final point would be that I am angry, I am angry that the LCMS is building 6000 churches, probably in areas where most people are either already Christians, or at least there are many other Churches there. Imagine if tthis was 6000 churches in India, or in Thailand, or in South America, what a difference it would make. Rather the LCMS is just going to be exchanging members with other mainline denominations. This is a frustrating outcome of having so many denominations, they are mainly just fighting over who gets the biggest share of believers, while we should be fighting to bring the message and joy of Christ to those who do not have it.
  
  Peace be with you.

• Chris333

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:25 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  Linda,
  
  Thanks for your response, (as well as everyone else who posted since my last). I do agree with you that there is a lot that can be learned from strong believers such as Luther and Calvin and other great thinkers. However, I would never, in all of my life, either base a Church upon their teachings, or else call myself after them. (Of course the Lutheran church itself looks very different from what Luther said, which is a good thing because not all that Luther said was perfect) Still, there are some good things we can glean from their insights into the Bible and the Christian faith, but it is just as faulty (in my humble opinion) to accept their ideas as it would be to accept the Pope's, unless those ideas are consistent with the Bible and the truth of the Bible.
  
  Luther's whole position was based upon a direct relationship with God, and a theology based upon the Scriptures, he was also very concerned with maintaining unity in the Church. I am sure he would be horrified if he saw what the church has become today, splintering into ever more denominations, many just based upon a slight flavor of a previous one.
  
  On that note, I can go to a Baptist, Presbyterian, or Lutheran church and feel perfectly at home as long as they are preaching about the truth in scriptures.
  
  Now to answer your questions:
  
  First, I think that a Church without denominations would be beautiful. Can you imagine if we had only a Church based upon clear understanding of the Bible? Of course this would be a difficult thing, but the Christian life was never said to be easy and we need to strive for such unity. (Again I would bring up the illustration of one's own position, which cannot be divided on important issues, this should be true for Christ's body as well) I think part of this is allowing some leeway within the Church on minor issues, but on major doctrinal issues, which are necessary to the faith we should draw the line (and we already do, but we just stick to our denominations instead of uniting)
  
  This bridges into your next question which is where would people go. Personally I go to an interdenominational church which is based upon a clear interpretation of the Bible. This church works with other denominations which share core beliefs. Anways, denominations can fade away, and the Church still remain. I do not have to get a Baptist seminary degree in order to be a preacher any more than I need a Lutheran one. Rather I need only a deep understanding of the Bible. (Such as a degree in Christian Theology or divinity).

• Linda

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:17 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  (Chris333 cont’d from above)
  Actually I believe denominations do bring people together. Sure there are people falling away from denominations and moving toward the “feel good” stadium churches. But these churches no longer focus on the essentials that you identified or those that I receive from my church. Can you imagine if we didn’t have any denominations? Where and how would people gather as a Christian family and learn from pastors and other lay people about God’s Word and to pray for His guidance? How much more unity would there really be without denominations?
  I don’t believe we will ever have unity in faith. Certainly there has been no unity in followers of Christ since he walked the Earth. I am sure you have read the epistles from Peter, James, Paul who were constantly concerned about the directions the followers of Christ were heading. The only one who will be able to bring unity to the Church is Christ.
  Thank you again for sharing your personal situation and your thoughts. I appreciated hearing what you had to say.

• Linda

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:17 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  Chris333, Thanks so much for your response. I am sorry that I have not responded back. I have just gotten back to a point where I can take time to think on what you said and respond. I asked you the questions that I did from your comments: “The Lutheran church doesn't realize that people are tired of worn out denominations. I for one am markedly against such denominations as Lutheran and Baptist, and so on….” Also, “I am not a Lutheran or a Roman Catholic or a Baptist, I am a Christian. I bear the name of Christ, not Luther or Calvin.”
  Interesting though, on your choice of denominations you used as example because I was baptized in the Presbyterian church (mom’s family) but raised in the Lutheran church (Dad’s family). Anyway, I guess the expression “worn our denominations” is what really caught my eye.
  You asked if I thought the Lutheran doctrine is perfect. Luther, himself, was certainly not perfect but I do believe how he interprets the scriptures on Who God is – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I do believe, as you do, that only by Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection are we saved, through God’s Grace. I can say that my beliefs are embodied in the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds. I do turn to Luther’s small catechism to understand what these mean to me as a Christian. Lutherans certainly do not worship Luther, but he did provide enlightenment on the God-inspired truth of the Bible to help us in our faith in God. I do enjoy attending church in God’s house and listening to what God has to say to me. (to be cont'd)

• REDEEMED TWICE

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:32 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  My heart breaks over the questions posed by chris 33; the example of the Bereans (Acts 17:11) is lost in the muck of modern churches. Seeking out answers from fallible man is a death sentence for the ignorant. The Word is the source of all the information needed (2 Timothy 3:16). “For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding” is serious counsel for those searching the truth.
  Chris333, your loving Lord grieves over your consternation! Please listen to the soul-saver, your Savior, “because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.” (Matthew 7:29) Learn from Him, please!

• GreatHeart

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:21 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

  For several decades there has been a disconnect in the LC-MS between the preaching of doctrine and practical application of it. Our church is more interested in NFL Chili dumps and paint ball than Jesus, despite all the pious talk on Sunday. Concordia in our town is a cess pool. The standing joke is, "If you want to find the future LCMS pastors, go to Water Street and find the guy dancing naked on the bar." That's quite a testimony, but it's the truth. The Campus radio stations belches forth moral trash constantly and Victoria's Secret would just about describe the wardrobe choices of the females. They recruit on the sides of city busses, so it's little wonder the school looks like it does. Big has become more important than "faithful". Sad. The professors blast students who defend Titus 2 and its teachings on women in the home, the professors who are female, sort of, are largely feminists. Those who still believe the Bible as a practical guide for living are considered "too law oriented". Reformation Day, the guys duly genuflected at Luther's name in chapel and then headed for Hooters. That's the reality of "conservative" Lutheranism. For our family, we've seen all the forms of godliness without power and without reality. I don't think that starting new churches are going to solve the problem. I agree with Vallkyrie and Redeemed Twice.

• REDEEMED TWICE

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:32 am : 0 : 1 Flag

  How the Lord must be weeping! I am a WELS Lutheran by confession, LCMS Lutheran by membership and neither by behavior. And soon to be neither denomination! The stench of the decay gags. "They can't keep the ones they have alive but they're starting new ones?!!" is a quote from another who is retching repulsion from the rigor. When the Word went out after the Great Commission, the Church grew exponentially. Why? Was the cross of the crucified Christ the gimmick of the early church? Are we less pagan than the world in the book of Acts? Are we missing the component of persecution to invigorate the impotent? Are the impediments "stumbling blocks" for the clergy? The Elders? The membership? Where is the call to repentance? Theology preached is not repentance practiced. I am completely baffled that this condition is treated so non-spiritually; where is the use of Scripture for a solution to truly effect change?

• Valkyrie1966

  Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:18 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  THE LCMS is a dying denomination with dying churches. I know because I belong to one. The reason the LCMS is dying is found in the pulpits. 15 minute devotional sermons, constant harping on baptism washing away our sins as infants, (despite the fact that 95% of confirmands disappear after confirmation and live like the devil anyway), pastors who get their sermons out of their filing cabinets instead of on their knees, no spirit of prayer, (no prayer at all save for the elderly prayer chain and the read prayers in worship), no heart for the lost and I could go on and on. I actually witnessed one of our pastors telling a lapsed Catholic who wanted to marry in our church that he was already saved because he had been baptized 30 years earlier, even though he had no recollection, thought he was good enough to get into heaven on his own and was clearly unsaved.) This is what is destroying the LCMS. The era of fiery biblical Lutheran preachers like Walter A. Meier and Oswald Hoffman is over and a group of hirelings from the seminaries have destroyed a once faithful denomination. All the programs and Ablaze campaigns will not save them. Only the fire of the Holy Spirit who will bring about true repentance will save them now. I would add that this is true of all churches.

• Chris333

  Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:54 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  I said something faulty below, I did not mean to say that I am going to keep the Body of Christ together (God does this perfectly well without me) what I meant was that I would work towards unity in the Body of Christ. (Sorry for the misunderstanding!)

• Chris333

  Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:48 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  Linda, (continued)
  
  I tell others the truth in scriptures as best as I can understand it, I will sometimes give them differing opinions about smaller issues such as predestination, but on the major issues that I mentioned above I do not change (changing any of them would compromise my faith). My opinions do not change with changing worldviews, my views are grounded in the Bible, and always will be. The truth does not change.
  
  But let me ask you, whenever your denomination changes opinions about an issue do you accept the old way or the new? Do you agree with everything your denomination says? Does your faith change as the denomination you belong to does? Or does you denomination always stay the same?
  
  I agree that the denominations are not intentionally malicious, but I am sorry I cannot say that they are inherently good. Suppose there were two denominations in the whole world, the Presbyterian and Lutheran. Can they both be right? If God is one, and truth is one, then only one view could be right (or neither possibly). Naturally one or both sides should give up, say we are wrong, and seek the truth. If this is true for just an example of two denominations, then how much more for 1000s. It is only detrimental to the message of God, as well as contradictory to the Bible, to have so many denominations. (This is not to say that the denominations are not doing good things, they are and I agree with most of their main points, which is what really matters, but simply being so divided is against the will of God)
  
  "God does not change or "wear out"... ever..., neither does His Word, neither does His Church. "
  
  I did not say God wears out, I said denominations are on the down turn (this is not my opinion, it is a fact), nor did I ever say His Word does, neither did I say His Church did. I never said those things and you just assumed I did. I am also not anti-Lutherans (so long as they are Christians) rather I am against the Church being divided.

• Chris333

  Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:47 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  Linda,
  
  The word Christian means one who bears the name of Christ. That is what we as Christians are called to do. Christ didn't contradict Himself and argue with Himself and cut Himself up into pieces, so as a part of the Body of Christ I am going to try to end petty contradictions (I say petty because that is what many of them are), and try to find solutions to arguments, and keep the Body of Christ (which is the Church universal) together and solid.
  
  As far as my beliefs (which are of little consequence to this argument, but you deserve to know) I believe that Jesus is the Christ the only way to heaven, the Son of God and both fully God and fully human. I believe in the Trinity. I believe in salvation by faith alone. I believe in a literal and bodily death and Resurrection of Christ, I believe that being a believer of Christ means fully following Him and spreading the good news about Him. I believe in the literal truth of the Bible, both New and Old testaments. I also believe that compromising any of these points also compromises the message of the Bible and the truthfulness of it. If there is anything else you would like to know about my beliefs, please ask me.
  
  I desire to be in unity with all others who call themselves Christian and who follow the truth of the Bible. Primarily when I want to find answers to questions about the things you mentioned I go directly to God and the Scriptures in both prayer and study, I also enjoy the works of various biblical scholars and apologists as well as various commentaries on the Bible. But if you are asking me, do I go to a priest or pastor and trust him blindly then no, I don't do that, I do however respect and seek the opinions of the pastor and leader of my church as well as my seniors in the church. I believe you can learn a great deal from anyone who follows the truth of Christ, but it is most beneficial to go to the ones who are well learned and have pursued a life devoted to Christ.
  
  Let me ask you a question, who do you go to whenever you want to know if the Bible teaches predestination? Do you go to a Baptist or Lutheran who may say that it doesn't or do you go to a Presbyterian who will always say it does? Who do you trust? Why? What about other difficult passages? Do you trust the Seventh Day Adventist church about whether or not we should observe the Sabbath? Or do you go to the Lutheran church about it?

• Chris333

  Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:26 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  Topekan, I owe you an apology and others as well. I did not mean to be so harsh, I was only voicing my frustration over such divisions that do not need to be. I attended a Lutheran church most of my life. And towards my late teens I explored and attended many different denominations, ranging from Baptist to Catholic (just observing). Within protestantism there is very little real differences between the denominations, and most say that they believe that as long as the fundamentals are the same, a Christian from any denomination can go to heaven. If this is true why don't we unite? What is the big deal? Again I know that you have some attachment to the Lutheran church, but I just have to ask you, when you go before God are you going to say that you are a Lutheran or a Christian?
  
  I wasn't saying that I decided what people are tired of, I was only putting a voice behind statistics that say that the old denominations are on the decline (rapidly) and new churches that are interdenominational are growing (rapidly). But let me ask you some questions now, do you believe the Lutheran church is doctrinally perfect? If not then do you believe that the Lutheran church is closest to the true interpretation of the Bible? If yes then why? Are Lutherans somehow more fit to interpret the Bible? Or are Baptists and Presbyterians deficient in their understanding? Why are you a Lutheran? Again, I am not trying to be arrogant or anti-Christian, rather I am trying to question the reasoning for such vast splits in the Christian body, something that quite frankly I believe is wrong and against Christ and the teachings of Paul (from Christ). Paul clearly called for unity. Again, I wasn't trying to say, "I am right!" rather I was trying to say, "All 6000+ denominations cannot be right" I am sorry to have offended you though and gave you a false impression, my words were ill-chosen.

• Linda

  Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:38 am : 1 : 0 Flag

  Chris3333
  What exactly does it mean to you to "bear the name of Christ"? As a Christian, what is it you believe about Christ? Who do you say He is with respect to God and the Holy Spirit and your relationship with Him?
  
  With whom is it that you as "a Christian... bearing the name of Christ" are you in unity? Who do you go to in order to learn more about God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, about your faith, about your eternity? Where do you go when you are in doubt, in pain, in sorrow? Who carefully, and lovingly, explains to you the many complex passages in the Bible in order to let your faith grow?
  
  What do you tell others about your faith? Or does your faith change with the prevailing world view?
  
  Most of the primary denominations, particularly the Lutheran church, have clear statements of what they believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There is no confusion about what these churches teach and there are educated theologically trained pasters and lay people who are there to help teach people the Word of God as clearly and concisely as possible while not forcing anyone into belief. In the LCMS, we have faith that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can bring people to faith in Jesus Christ.
  
  God does not change or "wear out"... ever..., neither does His Word, neither does His Church.

• Topekan

  Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:38 am : 0 : 2 Flag

  Kami, count me as a fellow LCMS member who agrees with your thoughts on "Ablaze". Chris333, you are arrogant to be the final arbiter on what "people" are "tired of". I am a Chrisitian who happens to attend a church that calls itself "Lutheran". Your comments denigrating "worn out denominations" also appear to "do nothing for Christian Unity". Perhaps you should consider having the beam removed from your eye. I'm still working on getting mine out.

• Chris333

  Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:52 am : 0 : 0 Flag

  Also, the main people that they are going to be drawing in the LCMS are other Christians, not non-christians. If they were planning to make 6000 new churches in India, then I would be happy. But I don't think they are planning on that any time soon.

• Chris333

  Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:50 am : 1 : 2 Flag

  The Lutheran church doesn't realize that people are tired of worn out denominations. I for one am markedly against such denominations as Lutheran and Baptist, and so on. They do nothing for Christian unity and they really only confuse people. I am not a Lutheran or a Roman Catholic or a Baptist, I am a Christian. I bear the name of Christ, not Luther or Calvin.

• kami

  Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:09 pm : 3 : 0 Flag

  As an LCMS member it needs to be said the concept of "Ablaze" itself is highly misleading, as is most church-growth programs who use gimmicks to draw persons to the church. The state of the Christian church is not measured by number of members or by keeping tally via scoreboard on a website. Nor is "success" determined by gimmicks...but by the pure and unadulterated preaching of the Law and Gospel. The Scriptures are what the Holy Spirit uses to draw a person to Christ.