A person who is a practicing homosexual cannot be a true follower of Jesus, according to the director of a network of church and ministry leaders in the Greater Charlotte area.
Today's Christian News Online - The Christian Post
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
CP HOME
> Education > Theology
'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist
Christian lifestyle and homosexuality are 'mutually incompatible'
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Thu, Feb. 14 2008 05:03 PM EST
[-] Text [+]
Comments
<<Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. >>
I wanted to also add that I don't know how you managed to believe that I said Jesus was using the S/G reference to demoralize homosexuals. You're twisting or misunderstanding what I said to fit your limited knowledgebase of rote answers.
What I'm saying is, you can look at Jesus support for OT law and Peter's, Jude's and Paul's beliefs and writings (all who had contact with Jesus and were taught by/with Jesus' disciples) to arrive at the scholarly conclusion of what Jesus believed about homosexuals and fornication outside of marriage and marriage only being between man and woman.
What do you think Jesus meant by sexual immorality below? What sexual experiences do you think Jesus meant were ok and not included in this?
Matthew 15
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
You can't believe in Jesus and believe homosexuality is ok. You're simply in denial if you're trying. And, you can't preach to believers about what Jesus said if you don't believe what he said in the first place and are not Christian and don't understand the Bible.
Heck, are we to believe it's ok to do whatever it isn't recorded that Jesus said blindly without looking to the writings of those he himself taught??
<<Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. >>
LOL. So did Paul and Jude. Yes, to the evidence, and no to "demoralization". Just because homosexual sex is a sin doesn't mean Jesus would "demoralize" homosexuals (had we a recounting of such an encounter), just as he didn't demoralize other sinners. Jesus is all about giving sinners hope.
The people who attempt to demoralize homosexuals are not acting as Christ-followers but are happy to confuse their human discomfort with homosexuality with their "false" sense of Christian righteousness in order to wrongly pick out and persecute homosexuals. They're using the sin to make them feel good about persecuting homosexuals whom they do not understand and not want to understand because they're afraid of them. That's human, not Christian, and thanks for bringing me back to my ORIGINAL point!
<<Funny that when one uses any sort of Bible scripture to justify their point of view with authority and relevance, the accusation always turns to "using a GAY site as evidence.">>
Your response doesn't make sense, so I'm not sure if you even understood the comment. No one's saying the pro-homosexual site is evidence of anything...except the proliferation of an incorrect argument about what Jesus thought the sin of S/G was.
Again, Jude and Peter had very close contact to Jesus, and both of them agreed that Sodom's sins included sexual immorality (fornication). Why would they believe and teach this if it were contrary to what Jesus believed? They wouldn't. Paul breaks it down even further based on his learning from Jesus disciples. So, we can believe with confidence that Jesus disciples were spreading the word of Jesus regarding beliefs on sexual immorality. If Jesus believed anything different, the disciples would've let us know, and probably had been GLAD to let us know the good news.
Again, Jesus said he was here not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, etc.
You're hanging onto a vain hope to sway beliefs based on what Jesus didn't say without understanding his complete words or grasping his knowledge of the OT and the teachings of his own disciples.
<<Jesus calls Peter "the rock" on which Jesus would found his church. Peter writes
1 Peter 4:3-4 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.
Jesus taught Peter, and Peter is saying debauchery, lust, orgies are sinful. This provides more insight into Jesus beliefs on sexual immorality.>>
Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. Eventhough the common understanding was against inhospitality, an act of rape against Angelic beings and a reference to offering two virgin daughters to stop a violent act against guests.
Peter was illiterate and could not have possibly authored ANYTHING.
Most critical scholars are skeptical that the apostle Simon Peter, the fisherman on the Sea of Galilee, actually wrote the epistle, because of the urbane cultured style of the Greek and the lack of any personal detail suggesting contact with the historical Jesus of Nazareth. The letter contains about thirty-five references to the Hebrew Bible, all of which, however, come from the Septuagint translation, an unlikely source for historical Peter the apostle (albeit appropriate for an international audience). The Septuagint was a Greek translation created at Alexandria for the use of those Jews who could not easily read the Hebrew and Aramaic of the Tanakh. A historical Jew in Galilee would not have heard Scripture in this form. If the epistle is taken to be pseudepigraphal, the date is usually cited as between 70-90 by scholars like Raymond E. Brown and Bart D. Ehrman, while a small number of scholars argue for an even later date. source http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_it_relevant_to_know_when_the_apostle_Peter_wrote_the_book_I_Peter
Peter didn't author any books. The books are attributed to him.
<<Nevertheless, Jesus, when referring to Sodom, wasn't implying that Sodom's sin was being unkind to strangers, as I've read on some pro-gay sites. That's a gross assumption and incorrect. Again, Jesus was saying that NOT to welcome the disciples would bring harsher judgement than Sodom will receive on judgement day. Jesus wasn't implying anything about what the sin of Sodom was.>>
Funny that when one uses any sort of Bible scripture to justify their point of view with authority and relevance, the accusation always turns to "using a GAY site as evidence."
So you can just excuse what the Bible in Ezekiel 16:49 says? "This was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
Where's the bit about Sodom being an abomination for homosexuality?
And you can excuse what the Bible says in Jeremiah 22:3 "Thus says the LORD: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place."
My Bible cross references Sodom and Gomorrah, because there is no mention of homosexuality in the original tale, the NT uses the same reference when Jesus warns those who don't care about the sick, poor, hungry, orphaned and widows etc.
And you can excuse what the Bible says in Malachi 3:5 "Then I will draw near to you for judgment; I will be swift to bear witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired workers in their wages, the widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts."
Hummmm, same cross references, and all about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.
<<I follow the actual teachings of a faith much older than Paul's.
What does that statement mean? What teachings and faith are you talking about? Couldn't be Jesus, since that was only ~25 years before, and Paul shared Jesus belief directly taught by Jesus' disciples.
My mistake on referring to Jude as a writing before Jesus' time. Obviously, I'm not regurgitating. If I were, I wouldn't make mistakes in my understanding as I research this to tune this argument.
Nevertheless, Jesus, when referring to Sodom, wasn't implying that Sodom's sin was being unkind to strangers, as I've read on some pro-gay sites. That's a gross assumption and incorrect. Again, Jesus was saying that NOT to welcome the disciples would bring harsher judgement than Sodom will receive on judgement day. Jesus wasn't implying anything about what the sin of Sodom was.
Again, Jude and Peter had very close contact to Jesus, and both of them agreed that Sodom's sins included sexual immorality (fornication). Paul breaks it down even further based on his learning from Jesus disciples. So, we can believe with confidence that Jesus disciples were spreading the word of Jesus regarding beliefs on sexual immorality. If Jesus believed anything different, the disciples would've let us know, and probably had been GLAD to let us know the good news.
Also, I apologize for the "gay watchdog" comment. Not very Christian of me.
<<The closest one can come is through PAUL, however Paul received his understanding through what he calls a vision or revelation of Jesus through the Holy Spirit>>
That's incorrect. He didn't recieve his understanding or knowledge of Jesus' word during the revelation, only a command from Jesus to follow a few instructions to get him started.
Acts 9 "19...Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."
So, according to scholars, this is only roughly 45-55AD (~25 years after Jesus' crucifixion), and he's learning directly from the disciples who were with Jesus.
If Paul is preaching about sexual immorality and was taught directly from the disciples who were with Jesus, then Paul wasn't just making it up that homosexuality, etc, was sexual immorality. Paul made it very clear and concrete.
Getting back to Sodom and Gomorrah, Peter and Jude (either Judas a disciple [not Iscariot] or Judas Jesus' own brother) who both had direct contact with Jesus both refer to the sexual immorality of Sodom and Gommorah.
Furthermore, Paul says the only way to overcome our sexual immorality and lust, if we must, is to marry...a woman.
H. Jesus calls Peter "the rock" on which Jesus would found his church. Peter writes
1 Peter 4:3-4 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.
Jesus taught Peter, and Peter is saying debauchery, lust, orgies are sinful. This provides more insight into Jesus beliefs on sexual immorality.
-------------
I. Whenever Jesus talks about marriage, he always mentions man and woman like it was common sense and why would it be any different.
19:4-6 - "Haven't you read," he answered, "that the one who created them from the beginning 'made them male and female' and said: 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two separate people but one. No man therefore must separate what God has joined together."
-------------
Sorry, though you're intelligent, I'm still not convinced you understand what you're saying and that you're not simply a gay watchdog watching over the Christian Post forums. :) You're possibly only accepting the parts of the Bible that you want to accept. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'd love to see your responses.
A good debate based on what Jesus said is interesting, though how can we assume too much about what Jesus didn't say?
1. I'm not claiming literalism, but that's another topic that is off-topic.
2. If you're a Christ follower, then, let's tune this further to Jesus' words. If you don't even truly believe those, like you say, then we can't really go further:
-------------
A. Jesus says he's here to fulfill the law and that it's right to meet the law's demands. What's he talking about? "You must not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to complete them." What law?
-------------
B. Who said this: "This is my dearly-loved son, in whom I am well pleased" after Jesus was baptised.
-------------
C. Did Jesus believe he was God? Why did he answer yes to being the Christ? Why did he say not to tempt the Lord your God referring to himself?
-------------
D. Do you believe Jesus performed miracles and was raised from the dead? If not, why do you even follow the teachings of Jesus if he's a liar?
-------------
E. Why would Jesus claim that simple lusting over a woman was adultery? What's the harm in that?
-------------
F. Why would a man divorcing make a woman make her an adulteress, according to Jesus?
-------------
G. Jesus, very knowledgeable about past biblical writings, obviously knew of the sins of Sodom when he said a town that didn't welcome the disciples would fare better than "Sodom and Gomorrah" on judgement day. Wouldn't Jesus recognize the sins of Sodom to include fornication as listed in Jude 1 below. What does fornication mean to you? You can search the Greek meaning:
Jude 1.4, 7, 8 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."
RE Fornication, here's a good tie in to marriage between man and woman.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
-------------
Split post...
<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>
I don't ask that G-d help me understand the second or third century writings of a madman. Whom I believe claimed to have received an apocalypse from Jesus (which was likely a generic hallucination induced by guilt over participation in murders) devised to allow him to infiltrate Early Churches so he could make a living, achieve community status, and ultimately make a name for himself- not JESUS. I follow the actual teachings of a faith much older than Paul's. Confounding Christianity and mucking it up with irrational human beliefs serves me no purpose. The Gospel as Jesus stated was simply do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, feed, clothe and care for the poor, widow, orphan, disenfranchised and by doing the extra greater good for others you see and believe
G-d. Why else would he say if you have seen me you've seen the father- the father can be seen in others since we're made in G-d's image.
Please stop making assumptions about my understanding, my understanding comes from Jesus, and my understanding of G-d and it's more than can be contained in one argument.
<<If not, how can you simply regurgitate what you've read on pro-gay sites about what the Bible says about homosexuality and hope to hope to find any real understanding?>>
Regurgitation works both ways my friend. You might be regurgitating what you are TOLD in churches which have been expounding the same hatred for centuries by one form of bigot or another. Remarkably, the problem is compounded with evidence that implicates the very same organizations that produced and continue to produce tractate after tractate against Jews, slaves and women. Disguise it ALL you want, it's still far too obvious how you really think.
BTW, You can simply accuse me of posting without thinking, not having any real understanding but evidence of my knowledge came from critical thinking skills I have developed by reading commentary, literature, critical analysis written by scholars and pastors who are not GAY but see the issue closely associated to an anti-Jewish, anti-women, a pro-slavery mentality based strictly from fear, prejudice and a poor understanding of G-d. So before you assume that I only regurgitate and utilize progay sentiments found on internet sites, think again- you are merely making an assumption. In fact most of my understanding has come by attending of seminars, reading books and lectures led by scholars, doctors and theologians who greatly disagree with your understanding and not the internet. So your assumption is merely what it is- a guess based on unfounded evidence so you have to resort to attacks against me and my character.
<<Do you believe the Bible, or at least what Jesus and his disciples wrote in the Bible? >>
As a Christian, I am not required to BELIEVE the BIBLE. I am required to believe JESUS. If the Bible is to be believed, why is it filled with human feelings, human stories, human understanding and human errors? Jesus and his teachings make me the type of Christian I am- not human understanding of an error ridden book many people use to bash, harm, divide and disenfranchise others.
<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>
Do you mean the passages PAUL or someone whom some attribute to PAUL and not what Jesus actually wrote?
Again if you want to argue the TRADITIONS early Christians started we can. If you want to argue what Jesus STATED, I'm all for it. Jesus didn't write PAUL'S speeches or letters, his doctrine is based on his REVELATION of Jesus, not his actual words.
Nowhere does Jesus say anything about homosexuality or premarital sex in the Bible. NOWHERE. The closest one can come is through PAUL, however Paul received his understanding through what he calls a vision or revelation of Jesus through the Holy Spirit-- he factually would never have had an actual meeting with the real Jesus, his doctrine is SECOND hand. If you want to say, CHRISTIAN traditions, creeds, sacraments etc. substantiate your belief that Jesus said homosexual or premarital sex is wron according to the bible, but literally, it is nowhere. I'm fine with that line of argument because it would be factual. But do not claim Bible Literalism then defer to Christian tradition, it's contradictory.
<<Let me take a step back. I really only wanted to originally comment to Christians that it's not Christian to lump our human discomfort with homosexuality with homosexuality the sin as an excuse to bash gays. That's not love according to Jesus.>>
But in doing so, you have done exactly what you tried not to do. You have cited what you consider "proof in the text" to be a reason to defend anti-homosexual sentiment. If you carefully examine your words, you'll see what I mean.
<<You're choosing to look at this in B/W without thinking critically about it, probably after reading pro-homosexual sites using these same arguments.>>
No, I am not seeing this as a B/W issue and I am using critical thinking to answer your responses, you however disagree with what is FACTUALLY in the text, what is being implied in the text and you are missing that there are other locations in the Bible which tell us why G-d did what G-d did and the explanation makes it to the NT as an analogy for why G-d considers people who disenfranchise the outcasts, widows, orphans, the poor and needy as abominable. Critical thinkers gather information from all senses, verbal and/or written expressions, reflection, observation, experience and reasoning. Critical thinking has its basis in intellectual criteria that go beyond subject-matter divisions and which include: clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, logic, significance and fairness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
<<Are you saying rape is implied in this story? >>
YES! It's as clear as a bell.
<<If so, then why were they wanting to rape the two males rather than the two virgin females.>>
Not TWO MALES, but in FACT, two angels. The "men" Lot takes into his home are FACTUALLY two ANGELS sent by G-d to destroy the city, because as it says in Ezekial 16:49 "This was the guilt (sin in some translations) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy..." remember that?
The sin that cries out to heaven in Sodom came to the ears of G-d not because they were homosexuals, but because the Sodomites(agains the inhabitants of Sodom) had everything but they were arrogant, greedy and refused to assist those who were needy therfore G-d sought to remove them- it says so SEVERAL other places in the BIBLE including the NT. Some places I have listed already.
Let me take a step back. I really only wanted to originally comment to Christians that it's not Christian to lump our human discomfort with homosexuality with homosexuality the sin as an excuse to bash gays. That's not love according to Jesus.
But, I'll leave you with the final word on homosexuality being a sin. First, with marriage only between man and woman, what do you believe sexual immorality includes when warned against in the NT? Do you believe the Bible, or at least what Jesus and his disciples wrote in the Bible? If not, how can you simply regurgitate what you've read on pro-gay sites about what the Bible says about homosexuality and hope to hope to find any real understanding?
Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?
I Corinthians 6:9-11
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 1:18-32
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Here are a couple of articles by a very thoughtful, celebate, Christian gay man that you'd be interested to read:
http://www.gaychristian.net/rons_view.php
http://www.gaychristian.net/ron_onjesus.php
That's the final word from me. I wish you the best in your search for truth.
You're choosing to look at this in B/W without thinking critically about it, probably after reading pro-homosexual sites using these same arguments.
Are you saying rape is implied in this story? If so, then why were they wanting to rape the two males rather than the two virgin females. In fact, Lot considered that more wicked.
------------There is no reference to "sex" in that story. If you mean Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of angry people, then FACTUALLY the reference would be an act of violence RAPE. Rape is a sexual assault, not homosexuality.-------
<<Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts.>>
No he didn't say that, he said this...
Matthew chapter 5:27-28 (NLT) 27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
ADULTERY is a crime against another man's property, David committed adultery when he seduced Bathsheba, took her as his wife and killed her husband Uriah in order to "fix" the situation. That's how Jesus understood adultery. In relation to women, if a woman gave her husband a writ of divorce she would be required to remain single. The Woman at the Well parable proves my point. Therefore, it is not a FACT to say "Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts." Marriage in Jesus' vernacular was made a covenant with the act of sex. This is also why there are LAWS regarding RAPE i.e. Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24
BTW, There is no mention of "outside marriage" in the Bible, since traditional marriage as we now understand it, DID NOT exist.
It's in the Bible that any non-married sex is immoral, and there are references specifically to homosexuality, including in Sodom where Lot stayed.
There is no reference to "sex" in that story. If you mean Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of angry people, then FACTUALLY the reference would be an act of violence RAPE. Rape is a sexual assault, not homosexuality.
You are terribly confused in regard to what this story implies. Both Ezekiel and Isaiah indicate in detail what the sin of Sodom was and exactly why God saw fit to destroy the city.
Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts.
It's in the Bible that any non-married sex is immoral, and there are references specifically to homosexuality, including in Sodom where Lot stayed.
Genesis 19:5-8
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
-----
Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
-----
Leviticus 20:13
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination
If God wanted man to be partnered with man, God would've made a man for Adam and allowed them to reproduce.
As you can see from the scriptures, God was angry at Sodom and Gomorrah because they had plenty but denied the needy. It doesn't prove one's point to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah for sexual immorality, when it's obvious they were inhospitible to the needs of the most vulnerable within their own commun ities- i.e. widows, orphans, the poor. Jesus reflects a similar sentiment when he states I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me, thiursty and you gave me drink. He also points out in other scriptures, that those who have the ability to help others but don't are like the Sodomites(the people who inhabited the town, not a reference to homosexuals) but judgment will be more lenient on Sodom than on the generations to come, because they have an example which they refuse to follow. Traditionally, religion has corrupted the scriptures in order to justify personal prejudice against homosexuals, and iut's evident with the twisting of the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
<<<Is homosexual sin worse than adultery or heterosexual lust (also adultery according to Jesus)? Not anywhere I can find in the Bible. Cities were destroyed for widespread sexual immorality of all types, not merely homosexuality.>>>
What cities were destroyed for sexual immorality? The fact is traditions have put sexual immorality as the cause which actual counters what Ezekiel and Isaiah say. FACT, The Bible states in Ezekial 16:49 "This was the guilt (sin in some translations) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
Isaiah 1:10-17 states "Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Listen to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation -- I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow." NRSV.
My last addendum is that marriage is not the solution to magically make homosexuality righteous. We're told that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
I honestly think homosexuals have a more difficult public struggle against their sinful nature than do we heterosexuals who are more accepted by the human nature.
I should add that Jesus commands us to love everyone. It's very important. Jesus didn't tell us we must only love non-practicing sinners. No. We have to love like Jesus loved. If we couldn't love practicing sinners, who then could we love? We couldn't love anyone, because no one is perfect.
FACT: The Bible condemns all unmarried sexuality.
FACT: The Bible says all sin is of nature.
The proof that homosexuals are born gay is that the Bible says all sin is of nature. By fact that marriage is only to be between a man and woman, means homosexuality as well as unmarried sex or sexual thoughts of any type including heterosexual, are sinful. Based on that, I'm a born heterosexual sinner given my lust issue.
Is homosexual sin worse than adultery or heterosexual lust (also adultery according to Jesus)? Not anywhere I can find in the Bible. Cities were destroyed for widespread sexual immorality of all types, not merely homosexuality.
We're all tempted according to our lusts. God says he gives us a way out of every temptation, including hetero or homosexual. So, while I don't believe a hetero luster or a homesexual luster can change those stripes, I think we'll all have a rough life fighting those natural temptations.
Now, as a hetero luster, I'm not as contemptable to Christians as a homosexual luster. Why? Because we're confusing our human discomfort with homesexuality (considered a weakness) with homosexuality as sin, and our need to have a good reason not to accept homosexuality, I guess. We're lumping the human discomfort together with the sin and calling it "ok to not love the homosexual sinner". But, is it ok to not love the heterosexual sinner or the murderer or the thief? If that's the case, who then can we possibly love, since all of us our sinners, and I dare say we're all immorally sexual sinners thanks to our fleshly nature.
I'm a hetero with a hetero lust problem. Can I be a Christian if I haven't conquered that? Can you be a Christian facing your own non-homosexual immorality?
<<<Is there anywhere God said male and male? No, I'm sorry but even in the beginning God made male and female to be together and "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.>>>
I disagree with the unscriptural teaching that the Genesis account of the Creation of Adam and Eve gives scriptural warrant for the false Complementarian teaching that God intended to outlaw, forbid, prohibit, every other kind of marriage relationship, based on the Genesis account. That is reading into scripture something scripture assuredly does not say.
Otherwise why would God only create Adam and Eve providing that "incest" would be the only explanation for God's manner in which to fill the Earth. Where did all the people come from if not Adam and Eve and their offspring? Incest, if you are a "bible literalist," is the only way population could have occurred.
BTW,
God never said anywhere in scripture that He will only bless a marital relationship exactly like the Adam and Eve model. In fact GOD curses THAT relationship as soon as they receive enlightenment between Good and Evil by eating the of the forbidden tree(an allegory by the way to explain how humans reached knowledge of good and evil!)
<<<We need to repent, turn way from our sins and follow the way of the master.>>>
I really think you misunderstand most of what I post, Tom. And surely I would never tell someone that is a Christian that they need to repent. Why? To put it simply, God calls me to repentance, not others, not imaginary humans who "witness" via the internet. You see, it's a rather limiting and impotent image you present of God, God is hardly as little and puny as you make him out to be. And I am sure one day it might come back to haunt you.
The word homosexual is traced in etymology to 1869. So NOWHERE in anything related to the Bible, would Paul, Jesus, Moses or God have used the word homosexual- the word was obviously placed in the text after 1869- oh and BTW, The KJV Bible didn't even use the word homosexual, so obviously those who believe God was anti-gay, believe it because they are parroting their parents or minister. Prove if you can that God wrote the Bible, because if God wrote the Bbile why is an all knowing, all present, all over kinda diety unaware of so many things that we have today- he'd have been able to see into the future and coin phrases. Oh but he can't because he is limited to the small minds and bigoted opinions of those who insist they speak for him.
I didn't say you were wrong. But, God didn't write the Bible. Human beings did. And in many, many cases, many, many different people copied, recopied and rerecopied translations of a translation.
And BTW, in all sincerety and fact, there is nothing in the Bible that states Jesus' held the opinion that homosexuality is sinful. NOWHERE. The earliest translation where the word homosexual is used, would have to be a more modern translation of the KJV of the Bible.
the problem qt is that we are not wrong. God in His word does call homosexaulity a sin and sin can cause you to go to the place called hell. Did you not read where Jesus said that, narrow is the way that lead to eternal life? and wide is the road that leads to destruction. We need to repent, turn way from our sins and follow the way of the master. Jesus Christ. Gods Blessing on ya
In Christ Tom
I’m not going to get into the semantics of the six passages in the Bible that can even remotely be construed as a disapproval of homosexuality. Why? The King James Bible has about 774,776 words. The six aforementioned passages are comprised of, at most, 50 to 60 words. That’s about 0.00006% (that’s 6 one hundred-thousandths) of a percent of the entire Bible. The REST of the Bible is filled with verses, passages and parables about loving one another. The whole point of the Bible is to teach people to LOVE one another. Judgment is God’s sole responsibility, not yours or mine.
[IF] you insist on using Leviticus as your basis for legislation, let’s go ahead and amend the Constitution to strip all marriage rights from adulterers*, for that verse follows the ‘lie with another man’ verse that you so frequently cite as divine instruction to ban homosexuality.
So to all the evangelicals, conservatives, religious and ‘moral’ leaders out there, I pose this final suggestion. If I am wrong, and God truly believes that homosexuality is wrong, then I have sinned against myself. But if you are wrong, you have sinned against me and millions of others in the world. Which do you think is worse?
adulterer= a person who has divorced someone and remarried someone else! Adultery is a perpetual sin which creates enmity between G-d and the person who has committed this act!
http://outandaboutnewspaper.com/article.php?id=2447
So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27)
God created them "male and female" not male and male.
And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gensis 2:18)
who did God make to help man (male)?
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:22-25)
Is there anywhere God said male and male? No, I'm sorry but even in the beginning God made male and female to be together and "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)
it is amazing to me after some 6 to 14000 years (depending), someone in the recent years has uncovered the secret meaning written in the Bible, that homosexaulity is permitted by God's word. Man I think I should just chuck this whole Christianty thing and go back to the way I was. Oh Wait I can't He has proven to me over and over that His word is the same today as yesterday as it will be tomorrow, It doesn't change. His word is Jesus and He said if we love Him we will follow His commands, which are the same as His Fathers. And He says that Homosexaulity like many other sins are just that sin. Period. We all need Jesus Christ to accept Him as Lord and to turn away from our sins. To seek His kingdom and His righteousness. Sorry your wrong Rayco His word doesn't change. We will be praying for ya.
Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Raycol said: "After years of research, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible approves of men being emotionally attracted to men and it does not condemn any form of sex between men except for male-male penetration. Nevertheless..."
Response: The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone to that conclusion. It is a conclusion filled with deception and death.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16)
"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3:7)
An answer to those who say that the Bible condemns homosexuality.
After years of research, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible approves of men being emotionally attracted to men and it does not condemn any form of sex between men except for male-male penetration.
Nevertheless, men penetrating men is okay if no one is harmed. Full details, including the Biblical basis of this reasoning, can be seen on www.gaysandslaves.com.
But I always do enjoy listening to non-Christians try to understand what they cannot understand. The things of the Spirit are beyond the carnally minded.
I do know that Jesus said that marriage was between a man and a woman. So who am I to argue the Son of God?
I do love. I love my neighbor enough to warn him of danger. I love him enough to tell him that what he's doing will destroy him. "
you dont even know this mythical person. you dont know, much less honor his life experiences that brought him to where he is today, which is part of fellowship. the only thing you know is his behavior violates your understanding of the regulation. and because it violates your understanding of the regulation there must be some kind of destruction, even though you have no witness to it and have never seen it, and can give no credible witness that this destruction even exists
two committed married people bonded by love, devotion,respect and trust that is cemented thru sexual intimacy. a sexual intimacy that is an affirmation of the that love, devotion,respect and trust. is this not the identical description of heterosexual marriage. a sexual intimacy expressed in ways that heterosexual couples have been allowed to indulged in without recrimination and judgement. is this what you are trying to save someone from?
in the spirit of christ whom god has put everything under his authority, in indulging in exactly the same thing as any heterosexual married couple how is he being destroyed.
if god is love, and the fruit of the relationship is the fruit of the spirit....................where is the destruction.
did jesus not say by their fruit you will know them? by what fruit of what spirit are they being destroyed.?
I do love. I love my neighbor enough to warn him of danger. I love him enough to tell him that what he's doing will destroy him.
i know of only one standard..........love. i know of only three commandments: love god, love your neighbor as yourself(the summation of all the laws, the fulfillment of the law being also love), and love one another as christ loved us.
what commandments and standards are you referring to?
Nope it is not a double standard at all it is the standard. Sex and marriage are reserved for a man and a women period. anything other then that is against the commandments of God, His standard not ours. His. what is more John say in His book that Jesus is the word. So it is also Jesus standard the word of God. So sorry it is not a double standard at all it is His standard for us to live by. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"But no matter how serious the "broken nature" is, "God can change you. That's the power of the Gospel,"
Amen. I wish religious homosexuals would actually believe in the changing power of God.
feet,
Who says marriage has to be about procreation? It's about love, right? That's rather old-fashon of you. If that's the case, what kind of children can gay people produce between themselves?
my understanding is that marriage of those in the same family is not allowed because of the possiblity of retarded progeny.
feet,
What about the brother who is in love with his sister? Are you denying their right to express their love...or even get married?
tom
that is interesting. with heterosexual married couples frequency and satisfaction of intimate relations is indicative of a heathy marriage. diminished sexual relations has always been indicative of alienation and disconnection in the relationship. and if not dealt with could lead to seperation.
so how is it that in a heterosexual committed relationship, sexual realations is encouraged. but with those homosexual married couples at my mcc church sex intimacy is condemned as sin.
do you think this double standard is of christ?
feet,
Even the demons are committed to each other.
feet I don;t have too the Scriptures speak for themselves on this matter. and to answer your question to lewr2 yes I would if they are actively engaging in "gay sex" then they are no better then any other sinner that has refused to repent of thier sin and seek Gods forgiveness by accepting Jesus as Lord. They will be judge like all the rest. Sorry, Gods blessings in Christ Tom
lewr2
you would compare those who bond with the same sex out of mutual love, respect, devotion, and trust for a shared life together with wife beaters, alcoholics, slanders, and murders. those of a different orientation, who have never been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. in this comparison having not been found to be less a father, mother ,doctor, friend, counselor,soldier,pastor,neighbor, administrator. could you you say the same about alcoholics, wife beaters,slanderers,and murderers with those that are not?
why the difficulty to produce a valid witness of and thru the spirit?
TOM
perhaps in your support of our two brothers in christ, you will give a witness thru and in the spirit that will validate their beliefs as to what scripture says.
God help those in homosexual sins. You are forbidden in at least 4 instances with two that speak of death. Your arguments are baseless, but because you want your ears tickled, you continue. I pray that you find Christ. Your sin is no less than an wife beaters, alcoholic, slanderer, or murderer. If you do not REPENT and TURN and FLEE from your behaviour, God have mercy on your souls.
Ah Wilderness,Jesus4me and Prophet you all are a refreshing dip into the truth of Jesus Christ. It is a shame that the Words of Scripture that you have used fall on the death ears of those like feet sheq and those like them who are walking contary to what Scripture says. I want to commend you all for your preservence and Love for the truth that comes from Jesus Himself. May the Lord of Creation Bless you all and may He pour His wisdom even more upon you so that those who are walking in darkness will see the True light of lights and will humble themself at Jesus feet and ask for foriveness, before it is too late. To turn from their sins all of them and walk in His Holiness not ours, coverered by the blood of Him who died and rose again from the grave to sit at the right hand of God the Father, To Judge all those who are in oppostion to His commands as brought forth thru His word the Holy Bible. Gods Blessing on you as you continue your wonderfull testominies and your fruit becomes more and more bountifull. Praise be to God there are those who will stand up and declare His Truth to those who would wish to change it. In Christ Tom
prophet
those that marry at mcc church are devoted to each other.
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another” ( John 13:34).
That verse does not justify the abomination of homosexuality. Jesus Christ never loved anyone in a homosexual way.
All kidding aside, I pray daily for those who are under bondage to the sins of immorality, perversion, fornication, homosexuality, adultery, addictions and such. I pray that God would help them overcome their sins and draw close to Him. That they would desire above all else to live a holy life, free from the bondages of sin.
feet,
I don't believe that cheating on my wife is a sin. So, since I don't acknowledge that it is a sin, I am free from any judgement therein. Thanks for the free ride! And I was beating myself up about sin. If I don't want to quit sinning, just say that it's not a sin, therefore I cannot be held liable for my actions.
as for the rest of jude, those of us who belong to mcc church are devoted to christ and his spirit and praise him as our sovereign lord.
the inhabitants of sodom and gommorah gave themselves over to sexual debasement that was obviated by their acts of gang rape in genesis.
anything that is ungodly falls outside of the love that we are called to have for each other in the spirit of christ..........loving god , loving one's neighbor and oneself, and one another as christ loved us.
i concur with jude . be in constant prayer with the holy spirit, live the life of love called to by christ. and in all things be in thanks, praise and of the spirit.
my response to 1cor 5 is that we all are guilty of being slanders, idolaters of some fashion, and in our hearts sexually immoral at sometime, let alone physically immoral. so saying that my understanding is that, those who knowingly commit sin, acknowledge that they know it is a sin, and knowing it is a sin still have no compunction about stopping their behavior, should be asked to leave the church.
in regards to homosexuality those of that orientation not only say they are not sinning, but that scripture in no way condemns homosexuality as a sin.
and those that disagree, have only their unsubstantiated beliefs to stand on, because they are without spirit witness, that would show otherwise.
ttherefore one can excricate them from church out of human consensus, but never out of devotion to christ.
ephesians 5: 1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
continued
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
paul prefaces what the first part is about.......LIVE A LIFE OF LOVE..................THE SECOND PART IS ABOUT HOW YOU LIVE THAT LIFE OF LOVE, LOVE OF GOD, LOVE OFNEIGHBOR AND SELF, LOVING ONE ANOTHER AS CHRIST HAS LOVED US.
it is directing those of the church when and how to associate with those who are not believers. it says do not collaborate or associate with those who speak with empty words, because they are subject
to god's wrath.
Ephesians 5:3-7 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Footnotes:
Ephesians 5:5 NU-Text reads For know this.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deuteronomy 17:7; 19:19; 22:21, 24; 24:7
continued Book of Jude:
Maintain Your Life with God
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Glory to God
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,[g]
Who alone is wise,[h]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[i]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:1 NU-Text reads beloved.
b. Jude 1:4 NU-Text omits God.
c. Jude 1:12 NU-Text and M-Text read along.
d. Jude 1:22 NU-Text reads who are doubting (or making distinctions).
e. Jude 1:23 NU-Text adds and on some have mercy with fear and omits with fear in first clause.
f. Jude 1:24 M-Text reads them.
g. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
h. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
i. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.