summathetes,

Well said! This truth about who and what role the "Holy Spirit" has in relation to believers is being neglected in this postmodern age. The usurpation of the true Vicar of Christ (the Holy Spirit) is being replaced with men who neglect the Word of God. Lord help us!

Postmodernism has removed the Holy Spirit from salvation in favor of attracting people to the church by implementing a more contemporaneous culture that segregates itself from Orthodox Christianity. To them, they must do this to appeal to a younger generation, but if their methods and concepts are attracting individuals to the church, the question begs "Were they ever really visited by Jesus' grace?"

Has anyone stopped to realize that the Holy Spirit is who brings the salvation of Christ to sinners and its the Holy Spirit by which sinners are sealed to eternal life? They continue to ask How? instead of What? How can we be more relative? appealing? socially attractive? They certainly have forfeited theological education, much like other sects and cults of Christianity from the times of the Civil War when education and doctrine was no longer valued and emotions became the lamp unto their feet. They look around and see a lost world and sincerely want people to "be saved", but at what cost?

Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, and Oneness Pentecostalism did the same thing. Theological education was no longer a requirement for teachers of the Word and all one had to proclaim was that they had been called by God. The majority of Post Modern teachers have a diluted theological education and atand on their business acumen to plant churches and disciple people. The US is gradually become like Europe and the new Christendom is rising in the global south where doctrine and practice are as pure to the New Testament Church than anywhere else.

Nikolai, Big German, and Online4Him: I think y'all should check out another post where sadly people who call themselves brothers and sisters in the Lord are compromising the Word of God in their posts concerning whether homosexuality is a sin or not - again, postmodernism creeping into the church. go to the Christian post article titled: "'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist", and read some of the posts and what defenders of the faith have been responded to by "so-called brethren". I am convinced we are in the end times and it is only a short while before Jesus comes for His Bride and the wrath of God will be poured out upon a sinful, rebellious and blasphemous mankid who choose to turn away rather than repent. Lord help us.

This is another issue that breaks my heart, as I see many people trying to twist the Scriptures to suit their own view of postmodern society. Let us pray for the remnant of biblical purists within the Body of Christ; that we may be bold and loving in proclaiming the whole counsel fo God to lost and dying world.

Modern,post modern.These are all just phrases being used to spin someones excuse for deviating from the straight path as told in the bible.People don't think any different today than they have since creation.False teachers continually find ways to sugar coat a slightly off gospel to lure and entrap people.Molding a message to fit an agenda rather than asking the Holy Spirit to mold them to a gospel standard.Remember that Paul himself warned of this,and was so concerned about it that he said,if even he were to come to them with another message not to believe it.

nikolai42 & Jesus4me,

Well said!!!!!!!

This is the kind of result we can expect from those who have allowed textual criticism, postmodernism, liberalism, and ecumenicalism into their camp. The Lord will hold "leaders" such as these accountable for their outright rejection of His Word.

Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it – Jeremiah 6:19.

Look who's preaching now, J4M! Amen!!!!

Nikolai42:

you hit the nail on the head brother. keep preaching the truth as the Scriptures command us to do. Too many today want to re-write the Bible as they have every other piece of historical text. however, this time, they've gone too far, because God esteems His Word above His Own Name. Therefore, when they try to re-write, recontruct, deconstruct, revise, and every other form of liberal translating they can do, they are messing with the Creator God, and His Word, and His plan for mankind. They will also have to answer to the Lord face to face at judgement for leading so many sheep astray after a false gospel which teaches man's wisdom verses God's. May the Lord help us, and keep us in His Word. May He keep us from stumbling, as we are weak, and frail beings. May He grant us biblical discernment like the Bereans that we may search the Scriptures and test all things. That biblical discernment would come to the Body of Christ as a whole, and that we may be salt and light to a dying and lost world that is going to hell in a handbasket like we were if it were not for Jesus Christ the Son of God Our Lord and Savior's Redeeming Blood. May the Lord shed light on all those involved in this heresy of postmodernism. May He have mercy on them and grant them repentance should they decide to turn from their ways. Although I think much damage has been done by these liberal christians with their pseudo social gospel that denies the Whole Counsel of God. This issue really breaks my heart, because the only glimmer of hope that we have is the Word of God and the Gospel of Christ. If the meaning of God's intent is changed for a postmodern revisionist culture, then thik of how many people will continue to be deceived. Lord help us, and forgive us our ignorance. May we pray always that You count us worthy to escape the things which are to come. Come Lord Jesus Come...Maranatha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should have included the previous paragraph :

"He suggested that the mainline become more flexible in practice while evangelicals “loosen up” on some of their doctrinal system."

His making doctrine and practice unconnected (if not unrelated) is one more indication that the bottom line for him is number of people and acceptability of the message to the most people. Or at least modifying the standard so that enough people can achieve it that people start "coming back".

Quote from story : “What I’m noticing is when we stop preaching Christianity as a religion…and we start inviting people to be followers Jesus and present Jesus and His way as part of this beautiful story of the Kingdom of God, a lot of our Christians who have left are drawn back,” he said.

Even if nothing else is wrong, that paragraph is very telling. MacLaren admits that the whole movement that is pushed today is based - not on truth, but on numbers. Since many people aren't going to church, that must mean there is something wrong. Instead of focusing on the message, it's the target audience that is in view. That is the underlying idea of "postmodern Christianity" - relevance to the hearer, not a primary interest in the Truth. That bears NO resemblance to ANYTHING Jesus ever did, or commanded the disciples to do. And it bears NO resemblance to ANY of the messages ANY of the disciples or apostles are recorded to have given. In short, it is a reconstruction of a belief system to suit as many people as possible. Success is based on popularity, not on adherence to the letter AND spirit of the gospel.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:14 (KJV)

I wonder if MacLaren would rewrite that verse to say this:

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, change the way you teach to gain as many followers as you can.
(PostModern Revised Version?)

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)

Brian Mclaren, Tony Campolo, Richard Foster, Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Dan Kimball, Tony Jones, Robert Schuller and many others are part of this emergent church of deceit. Be warned brethren, for we are living in the end times and we are today so much closer to them than when the Apostles lived. The Bibelwarns us that there will come a time when me will gather up for themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear. I believe we are in those times wholeheartedly. I can only hope that by the power of the Holy Spirit these men who are being led into heresy and false doctrines of demons will repent and start teaching the Whole Counsel of God. May they preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and may they continue in the Apostles Doctrine as stated in the Book of Acts. I only fear that they have led many astray in their walks with the Lord. Lord Jesus help us, and forgive us our ignorance; I pray that we be counted worthy to escape the things which are to come; I pray that we follow you and only you; not this manmade pseudo christian postmodernism in the church. Please be patient with those who have not yet understodd the truth of the Gospel, and woo them to yo so that they may know Truth and Life as your Word promises all those who are in the Vine of Christ Jesus. We anxiously await for the Lord Jesus to come for His Bride the Church - Come Lord Jesus Come for your church; Maranatha!!!!!!!!!! Amen!!!!!!!!!!

The BIBLE is the truth we need. It does not contain the Word of God, but rather IT IS THE WORD OF GOD. Roger Oakland has an international missionary outreach as well as a biblical apologetics ministry train and equip the Body of Christ into Sound Biblical Doctrine, and to encourage them to stay in the Word. There is another site I want all of you to check out and read. it is www.apprising.org. Pastor Ken Silva has some pretty interesting things exposing the emerging church, and all it's proponents as well as Rick Warren. I'm not trying to be argumentative ok. I just believe that as the brethren in Christ, we need to do the work of God God's way, and the Bible in it's whole context gives us the way to do it. When men take biblical principles and expound on them and create a "new doctrine" or a "new belief", or a "rethinking" that is apart from the whole counsel of God, then false doctrine and teachingss will set in, and they are destructive, because they teach a "form of truth", but when more carefully examined and discerned, they are exposed for what they are.

http://www.apprising.org/archives/rick_warren/index.html

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/06/robert_schuller_1.html

Again, I exhort you to study up a little bit more on this seeker-friendly/emergent church of derception and how the Warrens urpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan is really nothingmore than a way to unite all religions. The emergent church and Rick Warren are also very much advocates of Bono from U2, Oprah Winfrey, and the COEXIST Movement. If you know any thing about these, or have rtecently followed Bono in particular, you will see their ideas although appealing to the ears of men, they don't line up with what God says in His Word as a whole (Old and New Testament). Bono, endorses the "Message Remix" Paraphrase Bible Translation which has taken out words like homosexuality, nad just contemporarily translated them to the word lust, etc. What they stand for is more in line with what the new age, and unitarian beliefs teach; rather than what Biblical Christianity teaches. We are exhorted in the Scriptures to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul the Apostle taught was true. I urge you to get acquainted with these movements, and then you yourself can ask questions when you hear a "Bible Teacher" teaching something that sounds like it may be ok because some truth is being taught, but you know something is quirky with it. I hope this helps you brother, and remember, the Word of God is not to be made relative. it is absolute in it's truth about Christ, and the Gospel Witness, and should not be watered down to bring in more hearers, or in this case, more "seekers"..

Continued:

........................"Will the Emerging Church Lead the Church to the Roman Catholic Church?

It is important to keep scripture in mind when we are looking for a method or a means to promote church growth. A Christianity that is not based on the Scriptures is a false Christianity. It may be ecumenical and it may be successful in attracting numbers, but it is not biblical. It could even lead people to believe they believe, but instead they follow false teachers and false doctrine and are deceived.

You know where they could spend eternity, separated from God!






[1] 2 Timothy 3: 16
[2] Revelation 22: 18-19
[3] Warren Smith, "Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church," Mountain Stream Press, Magalia, CA, p. 23, 24.
[4] Dan Kimball, The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for the New Generation, Zondervan, 2003, page 7.
[5] Ibid.
[6] 1 Timothy 4: 1 and 2 Timothy 4:3
[7] Dan Kimball, page 6.
[8] Ibid., pages 7-8.
[9] Ibid., pages 13-14.
[10] Ibid., page 127.
[11] Ibid., page 133.
[12] Ibid., page 143.
[13] Ibid., page 155.
[14] Ibid., page 171.
[15] Ibid., page 185.
[16] John 8: 31-32
[17] John 8: 43
[18] Dan Kimball, p. 185
[19] Ibid. p. 185
[20] www.seminary.edu/aboutnorthern/index.html
[21] Robert Webber, “Wanted Ancient-Future Talent,” Worship Leader, May/June 2005, p. 10
[22] Jordon Cooper interview with Dr. Webber, http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=385, posted December 11, 2003
[23] Ibid.
[24] Robert Webber, "Ancient-Future Evangelism: Making Your Church a Faith-Forming Community," Baker Books, page 114 "

Continued:

"In order to clarify Dr. Webber’s views, I did some further research. I found an interview Dr. Webber had done posted on a web site called TheOoze.com. Responding to the question: “What do you think the North American evangelical church is going to look like 25 years from now?” Dr Webber responded:

Christianity will be less national, less culturally formed. It will be smaller pockets of communities in neighborhoods. The church will focus on people, not buildings, on community, not programs, on scripture study, not showy worship. [22]

Certainly this view of the future sounds reasonable and acceptable from a biblical perspective. In fact, I could say a hearty “Amen” to what Dr. Webber said. But the next statement adds a whole different dimension to the direction he believes Christianity is emerging towards. He stated:

Biblical symbols such as baptismal identity and Eucharistic thanksgiving will take on new meaning. The church will be less concerned about having eschatology and more committed to being an eschatological community. [23]

Over the past several years, I have observed that Dr. Webber’s prediction regarding the future of the church seems to be accurate. Many who were once anticipating the soon and imminent return of Jesus are now asleep. Some are saying it appears “the Lord has delayed His coming.” Others are saying “we have been misled by pastors and teachers who have taught us that the second coming is a literal return of Jesus to set up His Kingdom.” These same people are claiming the “Kingdom of God” will be established here on earth through Christians during the Eucharistic Reign of Jesus.”

After reading Dr. Webber’s prediction that “Biblical symbols such as baptismal identity and Eucharistic thanksgiving will take on new meaning,” I ordered his book “Ancient-Future Evangelism.” This is what I read on page 114:

A brief glance at the teaching of the Eucharist from the pre-Nicene period provides insight into the early church’s understanding. The Fathers taught that continual spiritual nourishment was provided to believers at this great feast. First it is clear from the writings of Justin Martyr in the middle of the second century that this is no empty symbol. Christ is really present in the bread and wine. He feeds us in the remembrance of His salvation. He feeds us through His presence which is accomplished through prayer. [24]....."

Continued:

"In this article, Dr. Webber stated that “the Spirit is working a new thing in the church” and an “ancient-future worship is being born.” He listed a number of things that he believes are necessary for “talented workers” to discover if they are going to be a successful part of this new movement. Some of these are:

Rediscover how God acts through the sacred signs of water, bread and wine, oil and laying on of hands.

Rediscover the central nature of the table of the Lord in the Lord’s Supper, breaking of bread, communion and Eucharist.

Rediscover how congregational spirituality is formed through the Christian celebration of time in Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Holy Week, Easter and Pentecost.

While I agree with Dr. Webber it would be beneficial to reintroduce the great hymns written in the past by anointed men and women of God that expound sound biblical doctrine, it appears that is not what he means by returning to “the ancient.” In fact his list of things to do in his call for “ancient-future worship talent” mentions a number of terms and ideas that cannot be found in the Bible.

For example, when I hear the expression “sacred signs of bread and wine” or the mention of “Lent” as a means of “rediscovering congregational spirituality” - while these ideas may be ancient, I wonder where the ideas originate. Further, when I hear about “rediscovering the central nature of the table of the Lord in the Lord’s supper, breaking of bread, communion and Eucharist” I am reminded about the “new evangelization” program that is presently underway. Did you know Pope John Paul II has called for a “missionary vision” centered on “a rekindling of amazement focused on the Eucharist” to bring the world to the Eucharistic Jesus?

Could the Merging Church be Reemerging?

Dr. Webber is one of the chief promoters of the emerging church. He has written a number of books on the topic including Ancient-Future Evangelism: Making Your Church a Faith-Forming Community and Ancient-Future Faith: Rethinking Evangelicalism for a Postmodern World....."

Continued:

"While I realize we are living at a period of time where technology is the key to entertainment and visual stimulation is a necessary tool required for capturing the attention of this generation, I ask you to consider what the Bible teaches. What about less Word and more experience? Could someone quote the chapter and verse to justify that? What about the idea that visual stimulation is the formula for inducing a spiritual atmosphere that will draw seekers to Jesus? Where is that found in the Bible?

I don’t know about you, but my when I hear about the emerging-church-methodology to forsake “apologetics” and “careful exegetical and expository preaching” for the sake of a generation that is “hungry to experience God”, I have some concerns. Could this be another avenue to “dumb-down” Christianity so that we no longer know what God has said? How effective can experiential Christianity be when it comes to knowing who we are, where we are in time, and where we are headed?

Jesus said He is coming again? How many professing Christians will be ready when He returns?

Ancient-Future Faith

Dr. Robert “Bob” Webber is recognized by pastors, denominational leaders, scholars and lay people as one of the foremost authorities on worship renewal. He regularly conducts workshops for almost every major denomination in North America through the Institute of Worship Studies which he founded in 1995.

Prior to his appointment to his present position at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. Webber taught at Wheaton College for 32 years as Professor of Theology. He has authored over 40 books and is also a regular contributor to numerous magazines and newspapers. [20] He is on the editorial board of Chuck Fromm’s “Worship Leader” magazine.

I was first introduced to Dr. Webber and his views when I read an article that he had written in the May/June issue of “Worship Leader” tiled Wanted: Ancient Future Talent. Under a subheading labeled “The Call for Ancient-Future Worship Talent” Webber wrote:

I am personally most gratified to see the shift toward a recovery of the ancient. While many good choruses have been produced over the past forty years, the rejection of the sources of hymnody and worship by the contemporary church has resulted in a faith that is an inch deep. [21]..."

Continued:

"However, Dan Kimball sees a new worship generation in the making based on experience that is essential to the emerging church. In a section of his book subtitled "Truly worshipping in a worship gathering,” he writes:

We should be returning to a no-holds-barred approach to worship and teaching so that when we gather, there is no doubt we are in the presence of God. I believe that both believers and unbelievers in our emerging culture are hungry for this. It isn’t about clever apologetics or careful exegetical and expository preaching or great worship bands. … Emerging generations are hungry to experience God in worship. [18]

Obviously, in order for this to happen, changes would have to be incorporated. Kimball has thought this through and offers a number of suggestions which he lists in a chart [19] that shows how the “modern church” must adjust and move towards a “no-holds-barred approach” to worship. Some of these are:

Services designed to be user-friendly and contemporary must change to services that are designed to be experiential and spiritual-mystical.

Stained-glass that was taken out of churches and replaced with video screens should now be brought back into the church on video screens.

Lit up and cheery sanctuaries need to be darkened because darkness is valued and displays a sense of spirituality.

The focal point of the service that was the sermon must be changed so that the focal point of the service is a holistic experience.

Use of modern technology that was used to communicate with a contemporary flare must change so that church attendees can experience the ancient and mystical (and use technology to do so)....."

Continued:

"Now, I ask you, this question. What does the Bible say about Vintage Christianity and the so-called emerging church? Is the goal of Christianity experience-based or Bible-based? Jesus said: “If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” [16] Further He stated: “Why do ye not understand My speech? because ye cannot hear My word.” [17]

Less Word, More Worship

It should be apparent by now that the emerging church is more experience-based than Bible-based. Further, in the emerging church the Word of God takes a secondary position to the worship of God.

While Dan Kimball and other promoters of the emerging church may be sincere in their efforts to evangelize the postmodern generation and believe they are genuinely representing the scriptures, there are some real concerns that need to be addressed. Deviating from the Word of God for extrabiblical experience can open the door to deception. While worshipping God is a very important part of the Christian faith there are problems that can occur if worship supersedes the word....."

Continued:

"Dan Kimball is the author of The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations. He is also launching a church called Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California. Kimball makes the following statement in the introduction of his book:

I believe with all my heart that this discussion about the fast-changing culture and the emerging church must take place. While many of us have been preparing sermons and keeping busy with the internal affairs of our churches, something alarming has been happening on the outside. What once was a Christian nation with a Judeo-Christian worldview is quickly becoming a post Christian, unchurched, unreached nation. New generations are arising all around us without any Christian influence. So we must rethink virtually everything we are doing in our ministries. [9]

Certainly the spiritual climate in North America has changed radically over the past number of years just as Dan Kimball has stated. Many, including Rick Warren and Dan Kimball use the term “post-Christian era” to describe the days in which we are living. They say, while the seeker-friendly era was successful in bringing a generation of “baby-boomers” to Jesus, that time is past. Now we need to find new innovative methods that will reach this new generation for Jesus.

Kimball’s book, The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations, is written for this purpose. He not only identifies the problems he believes the church is now facing, he provides the answers and the solutions. The church for the future, he believes, must be more sensual and experienced-based. He calls this church “Vintage Christianity”.

Perhaps the term “Vintage Christianity” is new to you. While it is not my intention to describe all that it means in this commentary, a few chapter titles from Kimball’s book under a heading called “Reconstructing Vintage Christianity in the Emerging Church” will be helpful for us to understand where the emerging church is headed. These are: “Overcoming the Fear of Mulitsensory Worship and Teaching”, [10] “Creating a Sacred Space for Vintage Worship”, [11] “Expecting the Spiritual”, [12] “Creating Experiential Multisensory Worship Gatherings”, [13] “Becoming Story Tellers Again” [14] and “Preaching Without Words”. [15]....."

Continued:

"Further, he explains what the “emerging church” must do in order to emerge:

Today seekers are hungry for symbols and metaphors and experiences and stories that reveal the greatness of God. Because seekers are constantly changing, we must be sensitive to them like Jesus was; we must be willing to meet them on their own turf and speak to them in ways they understand. [8]



Now, let’s follow Rick Warren’s line of reasoning through to its logical conclusion based on the idea the world is hungry for an Eastern worldview, the New Age, mysticism and spiritual enlightenment. If it is necessary to meet these “spiritual seekers” on their turf, wouldn’t that require Christianity to become more New Age and mystical?


Emerging into What?

Rick Warren and others say we need to pay attention to the emerging church. Things are changing, they say and the “emerging church” has the answers for our generation. But what will the emerging church emerge into? Could it be a form of Christianity that embraces experience rather than God’s Word?...."