More than half the British people admitted they have no religious adherence, revealed a new U.N. report published this week.
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Report: More than Half of Britons Have No Religion
By
Ethan Cole
Christian Post Reporter
Sat, Feb. 23 2008 01:04 PM EST
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Comments
seed "As per your stawman arguments and general fallacies that I noted, it is not a character assassination. It is merely the illogical thoughts that you proceed with on the post on a regular basis"
If by illogical, you mean you disagree with my posts, then I am sure I am 'illogical" in your view. If you could show one example of what you consider an illogical post on my part then, perhaps we could see if you made your case. On theological arguments, admittedly I don't have much to say, its all been discussed ad nauseam over hundreds of centuries. I prefer discussions of chemistry and physics and politics. As recall from your posts, you have little interest and knowledge of science, your "logic" seems to be of a theological nature.
"Curios, are you a hard agnostic (nobody can know whether or not God exists)? Or a soft agnostic (you personally do not know if God exists)?"
I have no idea if God(s) exist, I have no evidence for its existence. Its certainly possible that a god exists, its also possible one does not. The notion that a god that created the universe as we know it would be all consumed concerning the judgement of mankind seems silly considering the known universe contains billions of galaxies with billions of stars each . Seems like god would have better things to do. No one else knows either, whether there is a god unless god presented itself to them and perhaps announced " I am God, creator of you and the universe". If that were to occur, then I suppose one would know if there is a god.
How about you seed? Has that happened to you. Do you have direct evidence for God?
One other point. If there is a god, I doubt seriously a person would be sent to eternal torture for not "believing"- that seems pointless and illogical. But hey, what do I know, you already stated that I am illogical.
flagged myself for an addition
citsonga,
As per your stawman arguments and general fallacies that I noted, it is not a character assassination. It is merely the illogical thoughts that you proceed with on the post on a regular basis. They tend to lack much, if any substance and are generally derogatory in nature. They do reveal a lack of personal incentive on your part to do a little investigation. There’s no need to be a die hard about it. And I doubt I will take the time, or at least any time soon to search them out to list them for you. It shouldn’t be much of a surprise however, since this does seem to be the general systematic ‘objectivity’ which you tend to assume.
Curios, are you a hard agnostic (nobody can know whether or not God exists)? Or a soft agnostic (you personally do not know if God exists)?
Paleological evidence for evolution?
I find that suspect.
1man,
"hence . . .evolution "
Oh please, do tell what significant issues you see in evolution as a theory, I'd love to hear them. i take it you've not heard of any of the DNA related evidence for evolution? Or any of the fossil evidence for evolution? Or any of the paleological evidence for evolution?
Well 1man, you put a lot of stuff out there, which I have to say is well thought out and I can agree with a good part of it.
"Facts are only the result of being, existence, and/or actions. Information is gathered and is considered fact....yet no fact will give you the answer to life"
You are probably correct on this point. Science can tell us how, but not why.
" even if science can pinpoint beginning in it's own eyes will never give purpose to any of it, what then are they searching for? To gain more knowledge...what a futile thing (in the respect of evolution)"
Good point, good question. At times I don't think there is much point ultimately, but I dont dwell on it much, mostly think about philosophical topics of this nature over a few beers. I guess I just figure what it is, is what it is and leave it at that. i dont concern myself with the hereafter particularly I like science because I find it interesting. In all probability I figure the knowledge I have accumulated in my brain will probably be lost when the heart stops and the O2 stops flowing to the cells. But again, I dont think about it much. I learn for the now, and leave the future, for the, ah, the future. I hope that makes some sense to you. I dont think I have a need to be thinking of an afterlife. I figure when the light a re out so to speak, they are out and it wont really matter.
"Surely you can't really acknowledge all that evolution concludes as fact?"
It might
"In response to know everything lets have truce, this is a Christian Post in verity this is a place for christians to communicate, so in like manner you kind of ask for scrutiny upon your beliefs also. Granted we have contradicting worldviews we must find a point of reference in order to communicate intelligently without being condescending."
Well stated my friend
Got to go, its getting late... thanx for you thought provoking comments.
Mr seedplant, one other thing, you posted "the only thing citsonga knows how to do is spout off with straw man arguments."
Please point out the "straw man arguments", I would like to know what those might be. Let me thank you in advance of your response to these inquiries.
Mr. seedplant, I thought your religion was about love and understanding. Whats all this character assassination stuff? I'm rather disappointed in your conduct.
rather than insulting me, allow me to repost my question to you from an earlier post from you:
seedplant "Citsonga, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to take a little more self-initiative in educating yourself."
in reference to??????
Please point out specifically my flawed comments. Perhaps they require clarification, I would be happy to do that.
I would also like to thank agentorange for reminding you that I am an agnostic, not an atheist. Also, I have no idea what you mean by naturalist. Please tell me what that means. I know what a naturalist is in my own mind, but I suspect you have something more sinister in mind.
Agent, I will at least give you credit as to having the capacity to engage in intelligent conversation. That’s a whole lot more than I can say for citsonga. I’m surprised that you would defend him, agnostic or not. Actually, I thought he was a pantheist. At any rate, he is a naturalist and an atheist in practicality. The only thing citsonga knows how to do is spout off with straw man arguments.
hence . . .evolution
"Atheism is a metal disorder. "
Come on Seed, he's not even an athiest. he's agnostiic....besides, look who's talking. you're the one with the belief, or should I say faith in a god. if anything is coined as a mental disorder, it's when you think things exist without credible evidence.
citsonga, you really don't have a clue do you?
Did you by chance visit your local humanist congregation this morning?
A word of warning 1man, citsonga is not hear to engage in intelligent conversation. He is here to blow off steam because he is mad at God, or maybe just mad (as in crazy).
Atheism is a metal disorder.
In defense of motivation of responses to you allow me to share from my heart. As a christian I value your life in light of my worldview concerning the death/burial/&ressurrection of Jesus Christ and as a result Him being Lord. A God in heaven who loves mankind in their fallen state as well as beings of free choice to remain in their condition. Who all the while influences the hearts of men to reach out to those who do not know Him to try and share what relationship we have with Him. It should as a result be done in love, unfortunately we sometimes get misguided in our approach to share, please forgive this. Concerning belief in eternity both Heaven and Hell one truly believing will reach out in order to divert as many as possible from this latter. The main issue though is not hell, for the gospel is good news, to be re-united with God and to have fellowship with him like before the fall of mankind in the garden.
Facts are only the result of being, existence, and/or actions. Information is gathered and is considered fact....yet no fact will give you the answer to life....you can look at a person detirmine their DNA make-up all the attributes of their appearance, their personality, the very number of cells in their body; but none of these things will give you exactly what the parents of the person looked like.....science with all facts not interpreted within the worldview of Christianity only brings about more questions that are unanswerable and might I add more unattainable. To find the beginning of something is not finding the origin of something, even if science can pinpoint beginning in it's own eyes will never give purpose to any of it, what then are they searching for? To gain more knowledge...what a futile thing (in the respect of evolution)Surely you can't really acknowledge all that evolution concludes as fact? In response to know everything lets have truce, this is a Christian Post in verity this is a place for christians to communicate, so in like manner you kind of ask for scrutiny upon your beliefs also. Granted we have contradicting worldviews we must find a point of reference in order to communicate intelligently without being condescending....concerning intelligence I concede you are probably the better
1man "Truth about a thing though not proven with facts still remains truth"
not sure what you mean here.
"facts take time to come about, true?"
Indeed, it does take a long time to determine if something is factual. I work in a lab for example. I never trust the results of a single experiment, they need to be repeated multiple times to verify result is real. In the larger scheme of things, Einsteins General Theory of Relativity is currently the most accurate description of gravity. After 90 years, experiments are still being conducted to test that theory. Some day it may be determined that his theory is not the best description of gravity and the universe and a new or modified version of the theory might emerge- thats how science works.. Thats what happen to Newtons explanation for gravitation, up until Einstein came along, it was the best model for gravity. it takes a long time and lots of experimentation and observation to determine what is factual. Almost nothing in science is consideredd factual with 100 % certainty. Really nothing is 100 % certain.
1man "to citsonga I've noticed that your very antagonistic to any attempts at validating our belief in God to you"
Its a reaction to being told by christians for years, that I am wrong, that I dont have the correct set of beliefs and therefore I am going to an eternal torture chamber for that my lack of faith and belief for something I cant see and cant hear and cant detect. Religion is a very personal thing, a person should believe in what ever they want as long as it does not impinge on the rights of others. Thats the problem I have with many Christians in the US, they want to impose their beliefs on me. Leave religion where it belongs- home and church, and we will all be better off. That is what the framers of the constitution had in mind. If religion is kept out of public policy decisions, then we have no problems. The Christian view or the Muslim view or the Jewish view of the world and the universe may very well be correct, as an agnostic I have no way of knowing, hence the reason I am an agnostic. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but thats what I think, my ideas are based on what I see in front of me. Have you ever entertained the idea that perhaps your beliefs are wrong? Generally, when I pose that question to Christians, they tell me with 100% certainty that they know the "truth". Nothing is 100 % certain. I really dont mean to come off as belittling peoples beliefs on these boards, but I think too, that I should not be condemned for my beliefs. My profession is in science, and believe me, I realize how very little I know, That applies to everyone else on these boards, so when posters come across as knowing with absolute certainty they know the "truth" and that I or anyone else is misguided, they open themselves up for scrutiny.
seedplant "Citsonga, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to take a little more self-initiative in educating yourself."
in reference to??????
Citsonga, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to take a little more self-initiative in educating yourself.
to citsonga I've noticed that your very antagonistic to any attempts at validating our belief in God to you,so I ask you why if you do not believe in God or any supreme being and the result...believing in evolution?..why do you consider it worth your time to think down at us when your do not believe that there is purpose, only accident what purpose could you be fulfilling if we are wrong???Pride in being right? to venture we are wrong about God...pride in being one accidental mutation to another accidental mutation having no more value or meaning than the animals we eat, what presses you forward to try and destroy our beliefs in true form of enlightenment you would pity Christians and others that hold such belief and not be condescending.
Truth about a thing though not proven with facts still remains truth, facts take time to come about, true?
citsong...what do you consider factual?
seed, give it up, you are a theologen of sorts I suppose. You show very little it any knowledge of science. I suggest you stick with your religious studies. Come back after you have taken some lcourses in science a, then we can discuss science.
"Atheism is incoherent and does not fit comfortably within reality."
thats what I say about the religion ramblings I see on these boards. As a reminder, I am an agnostic.......
seed "In other words, they do not consider animals as having any responsibility in the matter and by assuming that it is up to humans"
humans are animals, mammals to be more specific.
seedplant: "Here's a list to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science"
Ahh, seed. Thats a list of scientist, some of which may have called themselves chrisitian- so what.. The challenge to you is "Can you tell me one single scientific fact that your religion has contributed to the factual understanding of the physical universe?" You have not adressed that question, a list of people is not a list of scientific facts gained from your religion.
By the way one of the reasons for the criticism of Christianity is because of it introducing technology and industry to the world, causing ecological problems. The problem here is that Christians also have been charged to stewardship. The Bible not only commands such in Genesis, but warns of judgment for those who disregard the care of the earth in the book of Revelation.
It is also interesting how the very ones who are criticizing Christianity for the ecological problems are actually assuming that it is human responsibility to take action. In other words, they do not consider animals as having any responsibility in the matter and by assuming that it is up to humans, they are in fact reflecting upon a Biblical worldview.
Bottom line:
Atheism is incoherent and does not fit comfortably within reality. It is a far reaching stretch towards meaning that doesn't exist.
Here's a challenge for you; read the book of Proverbs in a reasonably recent translation, not the Amplified or Living Bible. You might be surprised, it was written to atheists.
I'm glad I found that list on Wiki for you since most of you skeptics seem to be ill-informed as to how Christianity has not only shaped our culture, but literally given birth to it. You can see some more of my posts on the subject at the following link. I guess that citizen and token were to busy to address the issues. lol.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080220/31271_Oxford_Probes_Why_People_Believe_in_God.htm
Professor Peter Harrison in The Bible, Protestantism and the Rise of Natural Science: from the introduction: "It is commonly supposed that when in the early modern period individuals began to look at the world in a different way, they could no longer believe what they read in the Bible. In this book I shall suggest that the reverse is the case: that when in the sixteenth century people began to read the Bible in a different way, they found themselves forced to jettison traditional conceptions of the world."
“the [medieval] monk was an intelligent ancestor of the scientist.” Lynn White (The Significance of Medieval Christianity cited in How Christianity Changed the World by Alvin J. Schmidt)
Alfred North Whitehead said that Christianity is the mother of science because "of the medieval insistence on the rationality of God." He noted that because of this belief, the founders of science had an "inexpugnable belief that every detailed occurrence can be correlated with its antecedents in a perfectly definite manner exemplifying general principles. Without this belief the incredible labors of scientists would be without hope." As Whitehead noted, the Christian thought form of the early scientists gave them “the faith in the possibility of science.” Christianity and the Birth of Science, Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
Here's a list to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
seedplanter: "Quantum physics is a shot in the dark. Ultimately it explains little and is not very convincing."
Do you even know what quantum physics is? Do you know what science is? Can you tell me one single scientific fact that your religion has contributed to the factual understanding of the physical universe?
citsonga,
That is a just-so story. It explains nothing. Furthermore to assume that ‘science’ will discover where the laws of science come from is like the universe creating itself. The answer must necessarily come from outside the source.
The problem of relying on fanciful fables such as quantum events to explain creation does not explain how a quantum event could just ‘happen’ or where quantum physics came from in the first place. Nor does it account for the fine-tuning of the universe to support intelligent life. Quantum physics is a shot in the dark. Ultimately it explains little and is not very convincing.
seedplanter "Just spontaneous generation" well perhaps something like that in terms of quantum event(s) that may have precipitated the formation of the known universe. The next generation of particle accelerators will get us closer to understanding how the known universe got started.
seedplanter: ".and where do the laws of science come from?"
Good question, science cannot yet answer the question of how or why the fundemental laws of tthe universe are what they are. Science does know a lot about the universe and those laws however and is learning more and more everyday. Someday the answer to how the universe formed and how why the fundemental laws of the universe are what they are will be answered through the science of discovery.
"Put them together and you get the universe, stars, planets and living organisms.......no magic needed"
Your too much!
“…no magic needed…” Just spontaneous generation, nothing magical about that. lol
...and where do the laws of science come from?
seedplanter "magical Mother Nature."
Nothing magic about it. Its about the fundementals of chemistry, biology and physics. Put them together and you get the universe, stars, planets and living organisms.......no magic needed, no supernatural needed.........just the laws of science.
citizen, I am sorry that you find my challenges to be so difficult. I at least thought you were capable of engaging in intelligent dialogue; after all here you are in all your militant glory. Seems you would at least be willing to defend your belief in magical Mother Nature.
Jester - I must admit it's true that Dr. Seuss certainly makes more sense than you do.
seedplanter: I'm only one man...there is only so much Christian supremacist nonsense I can bear.
thank you torus for that colorful, yet completely pointless, comment. your idea of deep is "Horton Hears a Who."
Thelordismylight: “I do not understand, were the heckler and blasphemous person one in the same? Was it during a mass? Was it outside church? I don't understand... How was the heckler saved?”
This was a street preacher was from New Zealand. He would preach at speaker’s corner, I believe it was called. And no, the blasphemer and the heckler were two different people.
So the story goes like this:
I knew of a guy who would heckle preachers and one day when the preacher was absent, a blasphemous man stood up and began to mock Christianity. The heckler got saved that day.
citizen: “you are an awesome self-parody. Were you home-schooled by any chance?
The answer is no! But, what difference would it make; you have yet to answer my challenge on the other thread citizen. Maybe you should enroll in home-school yourself.
nc91: “religions have opposed or do oppose equal rights for women and gays and interracial marriage. Religion has been used to support slavery.”
While it may be true that slavery has been excused in the name of religion, it has also been excused in the name of Darwinian evolution. It is also worth pointing out that it was William Wilberforce, a moralist and evangelical Christian who fought for the abolition of slavery to his dying day. I doubt that you would have voted for him however because he felt that morality is important for society as a whole which superceded individual liberties.
Regarding women, it is interesting to note that Jesus first appeared to women upon his resurrection. The authors of the gospels deemed it important enough to add to the eye witness account, even though at the time a woman’s testimony was pretty worthless. This is a very early form of emancipating women. Also it was Justin Martyr that first introduced non-segregated education. It was William Carey who fought against sati in India. India native, Vishal Mangalwadi who is a Christian philosopher to reckon with, lead a more recent charge against sati being revived in the eighties and actually spending jail time for his political activism. It is Christians who are rescuing girls off the streets being forced into prostitution and virtual slavery in red light districts and beyond. It was Christians who rescued temple prostitutes in India.
Homosexuality on the other hand is quite different than women’s suffrage and ethnic prejudices. No one has to be a homosexual; it is a lifestyle and a personal choice. Christians do however reach out in love to help them. I had a good friend for several years that died of AIDS. I never one time pointed my finger in his face or rejected him. This does not mean that I watered down the Scriptures for him. I would take him to church frequently and have him over along with other friends.
Everybody needs Jesus, even terrorists. Incidentally The Voice of the Martyrs has actually put together a book which they pass out in jails and make available to Muslims.
Jester - your cute quote is entirely lacking in substance. Just because it sounds superficially deep does not mean it is so and certainly does not mean it rests on either truth nor reality.
agentorange,
The wisdom of man is foolishness before God.
Isuspect that you will remove my previous comment. If so , why do you let stand one which says "more than half of Britons have no brains"?
religions have opposed or do oppose equal rights for women and gays and interracial marriage.Religion has been used to support slavery. Does the Pope live in poverty?-no, he prefers earthly rewards.
What a wonderful record!!
Hopefully the whole edifice is crumbling on its shaky foiundations.
"A more appropriate name for this article would be "Report: More than Half of Britons Have No Brain."
And oddly enough Britons on average, along with the rest of the EU rank higher accademically, particularly with respect to Science and Math than their US counterparts....there's a real shocker eh Jester?
This is a very strange article. It starts out discussing the lack of religion in Britain, no doubt a good thing which indicates that rational thought is finally triumphing at least somewhere in the world, but then segues into commentary on Islam and Sharia laws. Do the "journalists" and writers at the CP have any actual training or do they just slop out whatever is on their mind, article title notwithstanding?
A more appropriate name for this article would be "Report: More than Half of Britons Have No Brain."
seedplanter: you are an awesome self-parody. Were you home-schooled by any chance?
seedplanter-
I do not understand, were the heckler and blasphemous person one in the same? Was it during a mass? Was it outside church? I don't understand... How was the heckler saved?
I knew of a guy who would heckle preachers and one day when the preacher was absent, a blasphemous man stood up and began to mock Christianity. The heckler got saved that day.
Since this was flagged the first time, I am reposting it.
Don't flag these guys they make great Christian evangelists!
I love how the Archbishop says that some of the ways that Sharia was "applied" were appalling. No, in reality, Sharia Law is appalling. People are so PC they can't call rape and suppression appalling, they have to call the application of it appalling so as not to offend anyone.
Danny, you wasted so much time, I don't know what you were trying to say, but based upon other comments of yours, I would say it was derogratory, illogical, and not related to this article. I do not regret not being able to see what you wrote.
I knew of a guy who would heckle preachers and one day when the preacher was absent, a blasphemous man stood up and began to mock Christianity. The heckler was there too and he got saved that day.
Hey, don't flag these guys they make great Christian evangelists!
That sounds very logical Hampstead. Not much substance as usual, huh?
With atheists like you around I wonder why the whole world is not completely convinced.
What's so good about it?