Below, is a FACT, and substantiated with each of your replies, Keruso:

When people approach a religious text, or any large book from which they intend to derive ethical teachings, nearly without exception the person will pick up the book and pay very particular attention to all the morals they already agreed with. A homophobe will pick up the Christian Bible and realise that Homosexuality is an evil sin. A misogynist will pick it up and realise that after all this time he's right: Women are inferior, and he can quote the Bible to prove it. People get, from religious texts, what they put into them. It has been that way, historically, since religion has been practiced on this planet.

<<This is not a matter of personal interpretation.>>


Yes it is. All scripture taken out of context of the time frame, culture and persons to whom it was written has been PERSONALLY INTERPRETED. Paul was speaking to his generation of believers in Churches he thought Jesus was to return in HIS lifetime. He wasn't speaking of YEARS in the future. You have continually attempted with misusing scriptures to prooftext as proof of your point Keruso, but is what makes it a matter of personal interpretation.

<<It is clearly and explicitly stated, multiple ways, that unrepentant homosexuals, adulterers, and fornicators will have no part in the Kingdom of God.>>

Again you are presenting your interpretation of texts removed from their original context to attempt to prove your point.

<<God's Word is quite clear that gay sex is an abomination to God and all those who practice it will perish. No where in scripture will you find God saying otherwise. Those who think He has have not rightly divided the Word of Truth.>>

And that has WHAT to do with the subject of HETEROSEXUALS who divorce? And it has what to do with the topic of Christians who divorce at an equal rate to nonChristians who ignore the bible passages which apply to divorce and remarriage? Throwing off red herrings because you can't articulate a REAL argument?

<<God will bring to nought any nation who embraces homosexuality.>>

What nations if any has GOD brought to "nought?" Historically, Christianity and namely the tyrannical practices under the guise of "spreading" the faith that has leveled nations; but it isn't an act of God, it is an act of willful Christian disobedience whereby Christians refuse God's command to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

feetxxxl, myTmuus

Lev 18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."

Lev 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have commiteed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.:

Ezekiel 16:49-50

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminnate, nor abuser of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Jude 7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

God's Word is quite clear that gay sex is an abomination to God and all those who practice it will perish. No where in scripture will you find God saying otherwise. Those who think He has have not rightly divided the Word of Truth.

God will bring to nought any nation who embraces homosexuality.

Con't

Quote: where does it say we are to be led by our own interpretations? in gal5, paul said the things of the sin nature are obvious. meaning that by their own essence there being against the spirit t of christ was self explanatory. how is it self explanatory that homosexuality is against christ.

He said: Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: [>>]sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;...[<<] I warn you, [>>]as I did before[<<], that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, he laid them out plainly. And what did he say before (having also written the Corinthians and Romans):

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: [>>]Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... will inherit the kingdom of God[<<].

Romans 1:25-27 [>>]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie[<<], and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. [>>]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.[<<] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, [>>]and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion[<<].

This is not a matter of personal interpretation. It is clearly and explicitly stated, multiple ways, that unrepentant homosexuals, adulterers, and fornicators will have no part in the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 12:24-26 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "[>>]Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand[<<]. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

John 8:42-44 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. [>>]Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.[<<]

Con't

Quote: >where in scripture are we given license to condemn anyone without personal witness. does not the commandments of the old covenant say beware of giving false witness? how does anyone know why anyone divorces? how does anyone know on what basis they came together to be married in the first place?

Romans 1:25-27 [>>]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie[<<], and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. [>>]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.[<<] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, [>>]and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion[<<].

Romans 9:1-3 I speak the truth in Christ - I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit - I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For... the sake of my brothers,...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Quote: what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11

Me: That for some men, the single life is preferred, for others marriage is preferred. It is 'this saying' to which Jesus refers.

Matthew 19:8-12 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." (11) But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. (12) For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

Con't

Quote: >they are saying......if there is a possibility of divorce, is it better not to marry? that knowing the nature of human beings is it better that they dont even attempt to marry, rather than give them over to the possibility of being sinners.

And your point? (It sounds very much like you’re implying marriage is a sin.) Many times the Apostle advised people to remain unmarried so as not to be distracted by the family needs (that includes sex) from God, however the Bible also says:

1 Corinthians 7:25-28 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. [>>]But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this[<<].

1 Corinthians 7:8-9 ...It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But...it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Matthew 19:5-6 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore [>>]what GOD has joined together[<<], let man not separate."

Quote: >who has this word been given to. and how is it given. it cant be a law, because it isnt given to everyone. whatever is given, is given thru the spirit. so that no one can say the holy spirit gave him this or that. since divorce was allowed in the old covenant. it is new in the new covenant. in the new covenant did christ give us new laws to be led by... .that would mean that he gave us new laws "to die to" that we are no longer" led by" because we are now led by the spirit?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? [>>]Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means![<<]...

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. [>>]But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[<<]...

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

1 Peter 3:11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Con't

You also seem to forgotten the most important part of forgiveness - repentance!

Matthew 3:7-8 ...Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [>>]Produce fruit in keeping with repentance[<<].

Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. [>>]If you do not repent[<<], I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of [>>]repentance FOR the forgiveness[<<] of sins.

Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of [>>]repentance FOR the forgiveness[<<] of sins.

Acts 13:24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached [>>]repentance[<<]...

>what he is offering is a directive of spirit, that is tempered by the three commandments.........loving god, loving ones neighbor as oneself, and loving one another as christ loved us. it thru these, that the word is given and is to be lived.

And how did Christ love us? He died a horrible, torturous death so that, in repentance and humility, we might be washed clean of the stain of our sins.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

And how are we to love God:

Luke 10:27 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind

Joshua 22:5 But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."

How do we ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’? By following the laws of Moses, for ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’ is the summation of all laws. Breaking any part of the law is hurting your neighbor.

Galatians 5:14 THE ENTIRE LAW IS SUMMED UP in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble.

<<I gave him a chance to either admit he was or deny it. He refused to answer me and he has refused to answer others who have asked. >>

I see. It seems to be the practice when one can't articulate a cogent argument on the actual subject The Christian Post has written, one attacks the person's character.

star2 said...
<<His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.>>

Oh really? So far feetxxxl is on top of his game. He knows his way around the Bible back and forth and has demonstrated stronger debate skills and greater logic, I'd say what he's doing is working.
BTW No one has been capable of "besting" him.

<<myTmuus: Are you gay? Are you a Christian? >>

And how is that red herring* argument essential to this discussion? The topic is not me, my faith or my sexual orientation, since you have obviously forgotten that, I feel the need to remind you that the topic is Christian Divorce rates...

*A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

sorry, site for Annals for Internal Medicine is too long, try this

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/249?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=
&fulltext=mrsa+usa300&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

feet

>>>mrsa is a highly contagious disease that comes from being in communal spaces. does that mean that god is telling us to stay out of communal spaces?<<<

CDC's definition of "community" - "Community-associated MRSA (CA-MRSA) infection refers to MRSA infection in a person lacking established MRSA risk factors such as recent hospitalization, surgery, residence in a long-term care facility, receipt of dialysis, or presence of invasive medical devices."

Regarding MSRA USA300:
"The infection causes boils and other infections but the report said what is unusual is that up to 40 percent of the infections occur in the buttocks and genitalia.

"Data … suggest that multidrug-resistant USA300 has spread rapidly among men who have sex with men in San Francisco and Boston, and that having male-male sex seems to be a risk factor…," the report said."
source: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=45564

Report from Annals of Internal Medicine on MRSA USA300:

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/249?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=mrsa+usa300&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

feet, MRSA is never passed by casual association, but rather by physical contact. It requires much more than just being in the same room with someone. I've had patients that had been suffering from MRSA infections for years due to the great difficulty in treating this type of infection. Why would anyone purposely choose to remain ignorant of such a health issue?


On 4/8 at 7:02 pm I wrote the following to you:

>>>>WE don't use testing for one issue, YOU do. Okay, so you believe that homosexuality, fornication, and divorce with adultry by means of remarriage is just fine with God. Is there ANY relationship that you think God is against?<<<<

Would you please answer my question.

star


feetxxxl has attended a gay church for a period of time. He wants to use the Bible to justify his position on homosexuality while rejecting the scriptures that clearly says that gay sex is an abomionation and all who practice it will go to hell. His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.


star you have done thrown accusation after accusation, but you not confronted one scintilla of my reasoning. and you have not shown how the words(greek) of the verses of scripture say homosexuality is a sin.

have you considered doing a word search on what scripture says about "tradition" and "testing"?

keruso

Quote: "what witness gives you license tobe so presumptive and judgemental."

The Bible is the witness. It is the one with the 'license to be so presumptive and judgemental." It is the standard that God will hold us all to, Christian or not.

Ezekiel 3:18-21 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but thou hast delivered thy soul[<<].

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.


>where in scripture are we given license to condemn anyone without personal witness. does not the commandments of the old covenant say beware of giving false witness? how does anyone know why anyone divorces? how does anyone know on what basis they came together to be married in the first place?

continued

keruso

Quote: what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11

That for some men, the single life is preferred, for others marriage is preferred. It is 'this saying' to which Jesus refers.

>in matt 19

>jesus says"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."



>to which the disciples ask "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."


>they are saying......if there is a possibility of divorce, is it better not to marry? that knowing the nature of human beings is it better that they dont even attempt to marry, rather than give them over to the possibility of being sinners.

>jesus says "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given............................The one who can accept this should accept it."


>who has this word been given to. and how is it given. it cant be a law, because it isnt given to everyone. whatever is given, is given thru the spirit. so that no one can say the holy spirit gave him this or that. since divorce was allowed in the old covenant. it is new in the new covenant. in the new covenant did christ give us new laws to be led by................. .that would mean that he gave us new laws "to die to" that we are no longer" led by" because we are now led by the spirit?

>what he is offering is a directive of spirit, that is tempered by the three commandments.........loving god, loving ones neighbor as oneself, and loving one another as christ loved us. it thru these, that the word is given and is to be lived.

continued

keruso

> the extreme is one pardner leaving and refusing to communicate, sexual and physical assault, or becoming so deranged, that because of severe mental illness, one pardner cannot even interact with the other. is the other pardner, in the love of the three commandments deemed an adulterer because he divorces and remarries.............................. of course not.

>it is the conviction in the heart of the one who" receives" the word, and" accepts it" the lengths that that person is called to withstand whatever trials god has placed in their marriage. to go the last mile to remain true to that marriage.

>and it is not given that because a believer remains faithful that the marriage will be saved. but only that the believer went the last mile.

>the greek " porneia" which the kj transposed" fornication", and the niv transposed "marital unfithfulness" can also mean" idol worship. that being the case, it would mean actions for one being given over to any spirit that comes against the 2 being given in marriage. it is not specifically about sexual unfaithfulness, which i personnally find as a lame excuse for anyone to dissolve a marriage.

>in addition jesus also gives dispensation for those given the word but still cannot accept it. jesus says that even if one is given the word and cannot accept it then dont accept.

so in essence the adulterer is the who receives the word and acknowledges he has received it, CAN ACCEPT IT, and ATTEMPTS to live by it.

even among believers no one can say who this is, except the person who in his heart has accepted it.

myTmuus

Re:My challenge was directed at the poster called star2 who claimed another poster is obsessed, absorbed and preoccupied with homosexuality to the point that she wonders if they are indeed homosexual.

Yes, I did wonder if he was gay. Others have accused him of such. Instead of accusing him I asked him if he was. I gave him a chance to either admit he was or deny it. He refused to answer me and he has refused to answer others who have asked.

feetxxxl has attended a gay church for a period of time. He wants to use the Bible to justify his position on homosexuality while rejecting the scriptures that clearly says that gay sex is an abomionation and all who practice it will go to hell. His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.


myTmuus: Are you gay? Are you a Christian?

feetxxxl, >homosexuality is not a lifestyle......it is a life, full of family,extended family, self actualization, faith. worship, goals etc.>

I totally agree with you. Oh, and I have not forgotten about your question to me, I am still researching the word eunuch and mulling over my response before I post.

<<Apparently, the word "lifestyle" when combined with "homosexual" is now some kind of insult.>>

It’s been an “insult” since the early 80’s when heterosexists decided they would demean homosexuals by deciding their lives and existences were nothing more than an aberration, kind of like the “lifestyle of the rich and famous.” It’s an uninformed presumption and ideal that homosexuals choose to be gay, sleep around, do drugs and seek to destroy society. So yes tamna, that word lifestyle is an insult but it’s not that new.

<<You fall back on a defense of perception. Perception is what got us into Iraq. An over the top example, admittedly, but it shows the power of perception. Fine. Like I said, I had a hunch that would be your answer.>>

Perception is very persuasive, and as you pointed out it’s what you believe got us into Iraq. In an argument it can be very helpful dealing with the opponent who consistently makes nasty assumptions about someone without ever substantiating more than “God said!” “The Bible says!” and “The Pope says!” You see tamna, I have read these comment sections and it is my perception is that there are many Christian homophobes who use these boards to demean the lives of people while using God to support their own personal prejudice. If or when necessary I can produce my numbers but it is not necessary just to appease someone who is much like all the others out there hiding behind their keyboard typing hatred about homosexuals in the NAME of the most high God.

Based on your response, as well as others, it is you that is making sweeping generalizations about persons that disagree with your stated position. All the while accusing them of doing the exact same thing you are doing. That is my perception.

And that is merely your perception, however the reality is on the 4th page, and the 4th response the subject of negativity regarding homosexuals was breached, so that substantiates my claim FOR NOW.