The young host of a Christian music television show has come out publicly as a gay man, and to his surprise he has received more encouraging support than expected from churchgoers.
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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
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Christian TV Host 'Comes Out,' Gets Support from Churchgoers
By
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Mon, Apr. 21 2008 11:56 AM EDT
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Southworth said, "I hope that they (Christians) don't do that, because that is not who Jesus was at all...His closest friends were the prostitutes and the tax collectors and the sinners. They were the low-life people of that time. So I hope they don't do that."
It is amazing that most that "come out" associate with the fringe society that Jesus ministered to in response to the religious establisment's rejection of His time. However, with their self interpreted "point of Christ" they make themselves to be more like the Pharisees who desired to manipulate and control any religious expression.
How appropriate.
Today's devotional from John MacArthur:
“Do not be deceived: ‘Bad company corrupts good morals.’ Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”
- 1 Corinthians 15:33-34
"The apostle Paul knew that those in the Corinthian church were being exposed to the heretical theology. This false teaching was having a bad influence on the Corinthians’ behavior. That’s why Paul tells them in today’s verse, “Bad company corrupts good morals.” It is impossible to be around evil people and not be contaminated both by their ideas and their habits.
This glimpse at the situation in Corinth proves that sound doctrine matters and does affect how people live. "
openminded
Personal Testimony about living out the Word of God:
One day God dealt with me about putting His will first in my life. When I surrendered and walked in obedience to Him, all the things in His Word that He wanted for me as a Christian to do came natural for me. I didn't have to think about what He wanted me to do, or how to act, or even how to interpret everything, It came out naturally for it was just a part of who I was. The same can be for you too.
Kudos to Azariah, what he did was truly brave and he is now testifying the love to Jesus to those who too often are cast out of the church. May God continue to lead him on his mission and bring those in the gay community back to the church that has caused them so much pain.
lidia: But they were customary - abomination usually referred to breaking customs and not the way we think of it today. There was lots of pagan rituals involving homosexuality which they saw as (and we still do today) see as sinful.
If they were "customary", they were ALWAYS regarded and noted as customarily SINFUL.
lidiapurple: Did it ever occur to you that perhaps some homosexual acts in the Bible were just "customary" as well?
ShuckCreations & lidiapurple- read Jude its a short book, right before the book of Revelation the last book of the Bible.
Dear Openminded,
The Bible is the Word of God without error. But there are different writing styles in the Bible. It was written over hundreds of years, by many different writers. A basic rule of thumb for reading the bible is to take it literally whenever possible.
Understand that those things you mentioned –“ yet they eat bacon and plant their garden with more than one kind of seed and wear multi-fibered clothing “ were part of the 600+ Levitical laws that passed away with the crucifixion.
You also need to understand that some of the things mentioned in the New Testament, like women not talking in church, or wearing head coverings, were considered customs of the time, and were to be adhered to out of respect for the customs.
Also, we believe that the OT is a foreshadowing of the NT. So, if something is different in the NT than the OT one always accepts the newer scripture.
It is very hard, if not impossible to know these things by just reading the Bible. That is why the concept of “Sola Scriptura” has never worked for me.
There are scholars who have written guides on how to read the bible. I’m sorry I can’t suggest a certain one right now. Maybe some here can.
Thank you for your replies.
As may be evident I am really stuggling with how to use the Bible. I have always heard that the Bible, the whole Bible was the Word of God and that it is without error.
With that said I am hearing that we should adhere to some of the Bible but not all of it. How should I choose which part to adhere to?
I am always hearing people say they live by the Bible - yet they eat bacon and plant their garden with more than one kind of seed and wear multi-fibered clothing - yet the Bible says we should not do any of these.
And what about women who talk in church? I talk to women in my church all the time yet I read somewhere that women were supposed to be silent in church - this is all very frustrating. How can we know what is true in the Bible?
“Sin is what dwells inside of you...things such as lust & greed. So stay away from those things and worry little about OT laws”.
I just want to clarify that the OT laws you are referring to are the Levitical law, not the 10 commandments. We are still bound by those.
Matthew 19:17-19
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.
openminded, the OT is more like a history lesson of our faith. The laws stated in Exodus through Deuteronomy were given to the Isrealites not the Gentiles. In Acts 15 Peter explains that the Gentiles are not bound to this law. The OT acts as a prophecy of Christ's coming and of the way things are to be. You'll notice that the OT is quoted all throughout the NT as reference to these prophecies.
So I say to you that no, you are not to take the laws in the OT litterally. You should thank the Lord that Christ has come so that you don't have to follow these laws anymore.
Hebrews 8:6-7
"But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it."
Galatians 5:4-6
"For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace. But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love."
You see it is the Holy Spirit that leads us to do right in the eyes of God. For through the love of God you will live a holy life and repent those things which were not that were not. Sin is what dwells inside of you...things such as lust & greed. So stay away from those things and worry little about OT laws.
Does all the stuff about the law in the New Testament mean that I don't really have to pay attention to what is said in the Old Testament? Is the Old Testament the Word of God that should be taken literally or not? Is some of the Bible to be taken literally and som not?
What parts are to be consider literal - killing my children if they curse me? Loving my neighbor even if my neighbor is a Samaritan?
Please help.
KC, you need to read some more of the NT. Being let free from the old law is discussed all over it.
Romans 7:6
"But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit."
Let's just blow the gates wide open; Lying is a sin; Fornication of any type is a sin; Stealing is a sin; Adultery is a sin; Not keeping the Sabbath holy is a sin; Not honoring your mother and father is a sin; Worshiping graven images is a sin; Having other gods before God is a sin; Taking the Lord name in vain is a sin; Murder is a sin, even self murder. These are all sin that exist in the body of Christ; There are christian praticing all these things. While I was yet in my sin, Christ died for me. We should be working to get rid of these as well. There is no one sin that rules the rest. The Law bring us to knowledge of sin.
ShuckCreations said-
But He still fullfilled it regardless setting us free of the law.
setting us free of the law?? Really? where is it you find that?
I guess I could've looked it up online huh? Oh well I stand corrected. I tried to go off my memory and that really isn't my strongpoint.
Okay yeah I must've been thinking about a different scripture...didn't have bible. But I He still fullfilled it regardless setting us free of the law.
ShuckCreations- Matt 5 & 6 is the Sermon on the Mount, The last two verses are
The Authority of Jesus
Matt 6: 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings the crowd was astonished at his teachings 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as there scribes.
He is speaking to all mankind...
"KC, I'm NOT defending homosexuality at all.."
......wow left out the key word there. Oops!
KC, I'm defending homosexuality at all as it is evil desires within us. The law is defined by things that are earthly, as Paul states in Colossians 2. And I have read the scripture you posted. Once again at face value it seems as if we are still held under Moses' law, however, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in that passage. He was explaining to them that their hypocrasy will keep them from heaven. Also, one must realize that when Jesus was speaking He had not sacrificed himself for our sins yet. He was still under the old covenant, the new covenant had not yet been made. Once He died and was ressurected His job on earth had been accomplished and from that we have the new covenant where are saved by Grace and not our actions.
Don't let yourself be decieved read your Bible ShuckCreations. Its not about us. God stated many times in many ways homosexual sex is an abomination to him.
Jesus Christ in Matthew.
Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version)
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
openminded, the passages that you are reading were old laws given to the isrealites before the coming of Christ. First of all, slaves at that time were treated much differently than slaves were within the last 100 years. Then slaves weren't divided by race or even wealth. As a matter of fact they were paid the same as a common worker. Basically being a slave meant that you were only to work for your master and no one else. One also has to realize that slaves could buy their way out of slavery if they wanted to, it was not a neverending contract.
As far as killing yoru child. Back then there wasn't any grace of God. When someone sinned and broke the laws they were often times killed. The problem with this was that the laws can't save, or forgive, our sins...back then people could only offer up earthly things to God as a way to their obedience to Him.
The great thing about the coming of Christ and His death is that He offered up His perfection and sinless life as payment and forgiveness for EVERYONE'S sins. Read Romans, it's a good place to start to understand where we have come from and what Christianity truely means.
Romans 3:20-22
"For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are."
I need some clarification on the Bible and when we should heed what it says and when we shouldn't. The Bible says that it is OK to sell my daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7) - is this the 'The Word' of God? Are people who sell their children into slavery just doing God's will according to his Word?
The Bible also says that it is OK to kill my children if they curse me (Exodus 21:17) is this something Christians should condone?
Is everything in the Bible just as it appears?
JonnyBlad said:
"Sad! How come I'm not surprised its connected with "Christian Rock" music?"
Excuse me?! What do you mean by that. Just because one might have a different taste in music and glorifying the Lord does not in anyway mean that he is any less of a Christian. Jesus said you can tell someone by their fruits. I examine music before I listen to it...this includes lyrics, meaning, talent, emotion and style. I don't listen to anything that has a negative connotation to it.
I'm sorry but your conclusion of this man's sin having a direct result from listening to music that glorifies God in a different way than yours would be like me coming to the conclusion that hymns could have the same effect because someone who likes them is a drunkard. We are called to love our brothers in Christ. I suggest you try it instead of being ignorant and critical of music which I happen to enjoy.
quecat wrote”
“I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't”
I can think of one. The sin of perverting the sexual act by fragmenting it’s intended use. Sex is for bonding and babies. When the majority of Christians accepted the use of artificial birth control , we redefined sex and are now free to cater to our own carnal lusts.
Sad! How come I'm not surprised its connected with "Christian Rock" music?
Taking the Name of the Lord in Vain
http://polemos.net/Articles/The%20Name%20of%20the%20Lord%20in%20Vain.html
Looks like this fellow thinks he can have two masters...
I just noticed something: "Christian industry"?!!?
What's that?
This is now a business proposition instead of a faith?
"He's not alone as a gay Christian, Southworth says. There are many gay people in the Christian industry, he adds, but it's "hush-hush" and they're scared to come out."
There are also many alcoholic people, and people who have a weakness for pornography, and many people who habitually lie, who call themselves Christian....
who know better than to "come out" and declare that they "embrace" their sin, are proud of their lifestyle and have no intent to change.
2Cr 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!... even so we also should walk in newness of life."
2Th 3:13-15 "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother. "
Accept the repentant sinner who is yet struggling against his sin? Most certainly! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid!
I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.
"I know I will be cut off from many within the Christian community, and if so, then they didn't get the point of the life of Christ," he commented. But he hopes the faith community will not push him out for being openly gay. "I hope that they (Christians) don't do that, because that is not who Jesus was at all," he told After Elton. "His closest friends were the prostitutes and the tax collectors and the sinners. They were the low-life people of that time. So I hope they don't do that."
Is he comparing his lifestyle to those of the "low-life people" of Jesus' time? I find that pretty interesting. Obviously, a part of him knows what he is doing is wrong.
I'm sure it's no reflection on this gentleman, personally - but when I was quickly scanning through this article I had to do a double-take. I initially was under the impresson that the picture I had seen accompanying the article was the iconic photo of Anton LeVey.
It's amazing the thought processes that get connected together in one's head!
If we keep on sinning, after we have received the Grace of God, there is no sacrifice left! Yes, God loves everyone of His creations, even those who choose to continue in rebellion. And when we choose to walk in disobedience, the wages of sin is still death!
God does not and never will condone sin in anyone's life; it cost Him the life of HIS SON!
Do we take the sufferings and the death of our Lord so lightly that we can trample on Him, and continue to keep doing the EVIL that we do?
We have to see ourselves in the LIGHT of HIS TRUTH....and our best is as filthy rags! and YET He still loves us, and we think we can come to Him anyway we want....we come to HIM just as we are...sinners...in the Hands of a LOVING GOD! Then HE changes us through the power of HIS HOLY SPIRIT....if no change is happening...and change always happens with The Holy Spirit...then perhaps we are trying to come to God on our own terms.
It is NOT about us..it is all about JESUS CHRIST!
God's word does not condemn anyone...it condemns SIN which...includes the ACTS of SEXUAL IMMORALITY....this is a sin against our own bodies...which are the temple of GOD...how can our HOLY GOD, come into an UNHOLY TEMPLE>>>explain this to me??
I pray that the LORD will remove the scales that the enemy places on people to see what the truth in God's Word! In Jesus Name, Amen
Amazing ...we were studying church discipline last night at study.
1 Cor. tells us the unrepentent "church member" who professes the name of Christ, for his own good and the good of Christs church, must be lovingly asked to leave the church. And upon true repentance may be welcomed back into the church and helped.
Loving church discipline is needed in the church today.
peace
<><
I find it amazing how so many will twist the scriptures so that they can appease their flesh
What Southworth Fails to realize is that the prostitutes tax collectors and other "sinners" that became intimate friends with Jesus repented of their sins and left those sinfull ways behind.
You must understand that Christ loves the sinner but hates the sin. You know this. A deveate life style is against the very foundation of the Christian home instituted by our soverign God, but you already know this. You state that you are "coming out." Of what are you coming out? A life of sin and deceit. Are you seeking acceptance for your life style or are you asking for forgiveness and prayer support for a change of life style?
<correction on last sentence>: I meant to say God sees you a Son of God period. Not as a Gay Christiian or a lying Christian and adulterous Christian.
koth - you are correct. That is actually the point I was trying to make. I am under the impression that Mr. Southworth is coming out as means of self cleansing, but my question is has God cleansed him? I agree that because he participated in this lifestyle he will have a propensity toward this particular sin. I believe the enemy will make it very difficult for him.
Additionally, I was attempting to bring out that to say you are Gay and Christian or an adulterer or lyer and be christian is acutally a contridictory statement 2 Corinthians 5:17 states if any man be in Christ he is a new creation..behold "all " things are passed away and "all" have or are become new. God does not see your identity as what you practiced before you became a Christian. That is how man classifies it becaue we are stil l in the flesh and we do sin. The moment a person sins against God they are at odds with God, That person in Gods sight is a sinner. However, this is the beauty of God's grace, the moment that person repents and asks for forgiveness John states God is faithful and just to forgive and "cleanse" from all "unrighteouness". If a person has becomes righteous in Gods sight God no longer holds that person liable for past sins. Therefore if you are not held liable for your past sins and are considered righteous then how can you say I am Gay and a Christian?
To say I am Gay and a christian is to say I still hold to my old nature, but I am going to follow Christ also. The bible tells us to be clothed in righteousness. The only way to put on righteouness is to take off the old nature. You cannot wear both. That being said. That does not mean a person cannot yield to the old nature. We all know the old nature tempts us. The old identity, but this not what Christ wants. This is not how God sees you as a believer. Once you are in him he does not see you as a Gay Christian or a lying Christian or an adulterer.
You cannot remain saved and continue on in sin. Whether it's homosexuality or whatever the case may be. If one has a problem committing the same sin(s) over and over again, then they need deliverance.
I am quite confuse by Mr Southwest of what he is trying to do with this public announcement. I got the same feeling as following2 said, it is like telling the public that I am cheating with wife and it is ok as the public is really supportive and loving. Cheala45life is bring a very important point, sin is sin. God loves us no matter what, even when we sin. But this is still a sin. God's love doesn't make that it is ok to sin.
But I do have one thing that don't agree with Cheala34life. But first, don't get me wrong, according to Bible, gay is something that God doesn't allow and that is against His will. But one can be gay and a Christian. Just like one can be a lier and a Christian. We are all struggling with sin, and we are all repenting in front of God and asking Him to renew our heart.
But if someone is gay, and he/she is ok with it, and claim to be a Christian, then I am not so sure about it. =\
There is a good discussion of gay marriage in <a href="http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/TASTEANDSEE">Taste and See</a> by John Piper if anyone is interested.
Yes, Cheala - you and I must have been writing at the same time - but I see we feel/think the same way. I guess the only thing left is that people don't see how homosexuality is not in line with God's perfect plan for His creation. And this is also hard to understand given that there are so many environmentalists/naturalists who don't want to disrupt the natural order all that is not manmade. Even those who are not Christians might see how homosexuality does not flow in the natural order of the creative cycle of the universe, whether they believe that God created the cycles or beings or not.
In regards to the comments about repentence: I know we are ALL sinners and struggle with different sin issues. But as we struggle to do right, why would we make a public announcement? The public announcement seems to request affirmation, or permission to continue sinning as we continue to follow Christ. Maybe I misunderstood the announcement. Did he publicly state that he is committed to NOT act on these thoughts and feelings? Otherwise it might be like me announcing I am cheating on my husband, but I am a Christian. Unless I ask for help from the body to steer away from the unGodly behavior, then I am spitting in God's face. Understanding what God has laid out before me as His best plan for my life, but telling the world I am much "happier" doing it my way- this belittles GOD and His omniscient love. How can I follow Christ AND proudly go my own way?? Anybody know what I mean?
I commented earlier, but I wanted to say something else. Transparency is good if the person who is being transparent is doing it for the glory of God. If Mr. Southworth is coming for the glory of God and to help someone out of the homosexual lifestyle, then I believe him coming can be used as a testimony to show how powerful the gospel message is, but if his coming out is to justify himself or his actions then I do not think that is scripturally sound.
He made a reference in the article that Jesus's best friends were sinners prostitues ets. It is true that Jesus did not shun those people, but was not attempting to have intimate contact with either. He was making a point to the pharisees who felt that their righteousness in Abraham and moses made them superior to others. He also did this to share the gospel with them.
Here is where I think the bod of Christ loses focuses. Instead of the church sharing the gospel message with those who are lost and bound in sin, we are too concerned with debating the truth instead of preaching it. When we do debate the truth it is our attempt to persuade someone to think like you. The church needs to realize that as long the person we are sharing the truth with is not saved they will never welcome or accept the truth unless God is drawing that person to himself. The body of Christ is not affective on the homosexual issue because we do not look at homosexuality as God looks at it.
Last cont…“The widespread social acceptance of these changes is impelling the move toward homosexual marriage. Men and women living together and having sexual relations “without benefit of clergy” as the old phrasing goes, became not merely an accepted lifestyle, but the dominant lifestyle in the under 30 demographic within the past few years. Because they are able to control their reproductive abilities—that is have sex without sex’s results—the arguments against homosexual consanguinity began to wilt.”
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004760
continued..
"Over the past four decades, women have trained men that marriage is no longer necessary for sex. But women have also sadly discovered that they can't reliably gain men's sexual and emotional commitment to them by giving them sex before marriage. Nationwide, the marriage rate has plunged 43% since 1960. Instead of getting married, men and women are just living together, cohabitation having increased tenfold in the same period. According to a University of Chicago study, cohabitation has become the norm. More than half the men and women who do get married have already lived together. "
From Rev Donald Sensing in the Wall Street Journal:
“Today, though, sexual intercourse is delinked from procreation. Since the invention of the Pill some 40 years ago, human beings have for the first time been able to control reproduction with a very high degree of assurance. That led to what our grandparents would have called rampant promiscuity. The causal relationships between sex, pregnancy and marriage were severed in a fundamental way. The impulse toward premarital chastity for women was always the fear of bearing a child alone. The Pill removed this fear. Along with it went the need of men to commit themselves exclusively to one woman in order to enjoy sexual relations at all. “
test
no1, yeah I think we are saying the same thing and I probably used the wrong word with acknowledge. I know repentance is about turning away I was actually referring to actually stopping dead in its tracks. Which is what a lot of people think it means. It's more about sorrow and changing our outlook on how you live your life for God.
I have been reading most of the posts on this article since yesterday. First, I would like to say that the Mr. Sothworth should be honest with himself. Being honest with yourself does have a degree of liberation, but the question has God liberated him? Just because you are honest with yourself does not mean God is satisfied with his lifestyle. If he has truly turned away from sin and turned to God, then his identity is not the same. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he is attempting convey that by him coming out...he has already straightened out with the Lord. I don't really know. I also believe that saying a person is Gay and Christian is deceptive. Let's look at the life of Paul. He persecuted the church heavily, but when he came into contact God there was a distinct life change. He may have once been a murderer, but after his encounter with Christ persecution of the church was put behind him. Did that mean he did not struggle with anger or the temptation hurt some one again NO! but what it does mean is his heart and nature was different.
I believe Mrs. Southworth is sincere. We as the Body of Christ should not condemn him. If he is truly making an effort to get through this with Christ, we should put our arms around him and strengthen him. The bondage of homosexuality is difficult to break. Its going to take people who care about souls to pray for him. The enemy wants him to breath a sigh of relief and relax. The enmey also wants and opportunity to plant in his mind that the body of Christ does not care about him.
The next thing I would like to say is that sin is sin. Personally I don't struggle with homosexuality, but that does not mean I don't have a struggle. Regardless of the area in which a believer struggles, the issue is his heart repentant toward God. God's grace is here for us all. Again, I do not believe you can be Gay and a Christian. Its the connotation that is decieving. Many men may have a proclivity toward other men, but God did not make them this way. Mr. Southworth as well as all others has to take his cross daily and follow Christ.
This isn't going to happen today because sad to say, the 'church' has accepted everything now.
We need to face a truth. The 'church' is not what it was suppose to be. No one is going to like this but all church doors need to be closed and everyone that is born again go home and have 'church' with your family. Where did 'church' originally start? It started in someone's home. It grew and grew until they had to get a bigger place. I truly believe that if a homosexual came into a meeting back in the day, they would have run out of the place because the presence of almighty was there, or else they would have fell to their knees and repented. Can you imagine seeing such a sight?
Feet: How do you pray?
its so ridicu;ous.
praying for somebody so that that person will have the same understanding of the truth as the praying person. a truth they cannot explain and is unsubstaniated thru fellowship witness.
Let me clarify something: I have not arrived! I am not perfect. But I know who I am in Christ.
I wonder how many Christians have wondered how we even got to this point. How can we have ‘Christians coming out” and how can there be such a loud advocacy for same sex marriage?
feetxxxl asked a few posts back :
“what is the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself?
in conjunction with the understanding that romans 1 is about homosexuality, same sex bonding. please explain what lie was exchanged for what truth and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served so tha certain persons were given over to homosexuality................ or homosexual bonding”.
The problem is that we have forgotten that sex has a twofold purpose. Sex is not just for bonding but also for the possibility of reproduction. The Church of England in 1930 okayed contraception, and most of the other churches followed suit within 40 years. Although the Catholic Church condems contraception, I can tell you first hand that it has not been taught from the pulpits. So, Catholics contracept at the same rate as their fellow non-Catholics.
“what is the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself” The essence is that homosexual sex cannot bear fruit. Not much different from sterile contracepted sex.
As long as Christians cling to the notion that we have right to leave God’s fruitfulness out of our bedrooms, we really don’t have a clear argument against homosexual sex. Let's all go home and empty out our medicine cabinets!
ifeelfine: Only thru prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to uproot all that junk out of you can you be free from the past. That is what the HOly Spirit did for me last year. I am free from alot of error. I am still learning His Word on a daily basis.
Shuck: Not really. Are they close? Yes. This is the 1828 definition I am referring to:
3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
While your statement about acknowledging the sin is confession (you lumped the two together a bit, at least for me).
Not trying to combative! :)
My whole point is that true repentance DOES involve turning away, where in your post you claim it does not. Does that mean you never ever in your life commit that same sin? No, of course not, but it does mean you don't accept/are not resigned to it.
I think we're saying the same thing in the end, but I disagree with your use of the word repent.
Also, I disagree with the "we will try and change it" comment. A sinner cannot fix himself any more than a broken clock can fix itself. We must confess, repent, and relinquish our sin and by the grace and love of God be "fixed". A homosexual cannot change his sinful desires, but Christ can. Which, of course, does not let one "off the hook" for action, but one must have the proper perspective and focus (on Christ alone).
smbga: Sometimes the truth can be very challenging. I felt the same way at one point. And as you can tell, still pray about it but sometimes when a prejudice is so engrained, it takes a while to get rid of it.
LOL no1, your link gives the same definition! Repentance is sorrow and regret for what you've done, which usually results in a change of mind. Not to be confused with change of ACTION.
It's like someone who smokes who absolutely hates and and says that he'll quit. Somedays he doesn't have a cigarette but others he does. He has changed his mindset but still struggles with his action of quitting. That is repentance truely means!
ShuckCreations: Respectfully, the dictionaries in use today have in many cases quite different definitions. Have a look at the 1828 Noah Webster version at http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,repentance
What you describe is CONFESSION (to acknowledge the sin as sin), not repentance.
I believe ShuckCreations word on "given over" is very accurate. Lust is lust...and lust is sin regardless of sexual inclinations. I am not sure where the interracial question comes into this. Race is a human thing, much like denominations. God created man and woman. I am going to step out a little on this, but the fact is we all deal with something, whether it be pride, adultery, lust, idolatry.........we give them fancy names like pornography, alcoholism, homosexuality, new age thinking, on and on and on. All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. If we choose to follow our own course of action, regardless of what God would have us do, he will give us over to our sin and eventually we will reap consequences because of our own choices.
Please understand that I am not condeming. Ifeelfine: I am glad to hear that you are saved. But your thoughts on this subject are very disturbing.
Given over usually meant that God hardened their hearts and let them go freely towards thier sinful nature. ie) His annointing was gone and they were no longer allowed into the Kingdom. One such example of this was the Pharoah.
smbga: Yes, I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior! And yes, I have prayed about the issue a lot.
just4him: smbga is right, you're not interupting but the issue is much more nuanced than that. Adam and Eve weren't an inter-racial couple but no one talks about that anymore either. Also, lots of God's favorite people in the OT had many wives and mistresses. Also, Romans says that they were "given over" which suggests they were heterosexual before and were given over to homosexual lust (as sinful but not moreso than heterosexual lust). It implies that gay folks should not live as straight folks and vice-versa.
heh, feet. When will you learn that this spirit you speak of is not the Holy Spirit. Oh and regarding the question of what is sin. I think explains it best here:
Colossians 2:20-23
"You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires."
Notice how he says evil DESIRES. That is what the NT describes as a sin. Paul goes on further to explain this in Colossians 3:5:
"So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world."
I really don't how else to describe sin to you. You are correct that we are no longer held to the law but as you can see the law was merely earthly. Evil inside of you is what creates sin and God still asks those who do so to repent. By the way, while I'm giving definitions I'll give a little insight on the word repent and it's common missconception. Repent does not mean to give up or turn away from...let's see what the dictionary has to say:
re·pent
–verb (used without object) 1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act.
2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
–verb (used with object) 3. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another.
4. to feel sorry for; regret: to repent an imprudent act.
So you see when we are asked to repent are sins we are asked to acknowledge that what we did was wrong and that we will try and change it. The problem with homosexuality is that they do acknowledge it but don't feel any remorse for it. Therefore are living in sin and are not forgiven.
Don't know how many has heard of Myles Munroe. He is a minister from the Bahamas. He has wrriten some awesome books. He is an awesome speaker. Because of his teaching on The Kingdom, I now understand the New Testament much better. The Word of the King (Jesus) is the final authority. Once His word goes out, it cannot be changed. It is forever. So if something is sin, then it is sin. It cannot change.l
just4him: this is open forum. you are not interrupting.
oh, and sorry for not spell checking....yikes
ifeelfine72: Not to be rude, but I would like to say something and that I hope you decide to search out and that question...whether or not it is a sin. I believe the Bible is quite clear....Romans for me is a good starting point. However, if we want to go back to the Old Testament, lets go all the way back to Genesis. God created a "helper and a partner" for Adam. He didn't create a girlfriend, or a mistress or a "life partner"......he created a woman. I believe the example was set there in the beginning. But, we should rely on what God has to say about it. Go to prayer...ask God to reveal the answer to you. Many times, in an attemot to be nice and "tolerant" we forsake the truth and turn away from what our heart is telling us and instead go with our feelings. Anyway, sorry to interrupt.
Ifeelfine: are you born again?
Ifeelfine: Then if you truly want the Truth, then I urge you to pray and ask God to reveal the Truth to you thru His Word. The Word of God is more than clear on the subject.
smbga: This might be the first time I actually answer the question here, but I am not gay. I am married (to a woman) and have an incredible little boy. Homosexuality is an issue I feel very strongly about though. I'm not sure whether its a sin or not (the Bible isn't as clear on it as some here have tried to lead others to believe) but I know lots of gay people and some are in committed loving relationships that seem very much in line with what God wants for us.
I may sound critical. But I am not trying to be. I just believe in telling the truth. I don't sugar coat it. It has to be told.
Not just you. But most are always justifying their sin(s) It has always been that way. True prophets weren't liked many yrs. ago. and the true ones today sure aren't liked either.
smbga said: "I am beginning to see that these forums are a waste of time. Very few want the Truth. It appears that many have frustrations. I can live without this."
I absolutely agree.
smbga: I don't feel its out of line and am not trying to be obtuse but what bearing does it have on the conversation? Do you think that if I was gay, I would be trying to justify my behavior?
I am beginning to see that these forums are a waste of time. Very few want the Truth. It appears that many have frustrations. I can live without this.
ifeelfine: i may be out of line, but are you homo?
It's too bad that Mr. Southworth was influenced more by documentaries and secular talk show hosts rather than the Word of God itself. I pray for people such as Mr. Southworth, And I don't mean homosexuals...I mean for all professed Christians who elect to justify themsleves rather than fight for change. Life would certainly be easier if we could justify all of our weaknesses and not have to change. To be religious is easy, to be a Christian is not. To recieve salvation is instant, to work it out, takes a lifetime. If we search enough, we will certainly find religious people who will say what we want to hear, but the final word should rest with God. We are to allow God to work through so that we may do our part to transform the world, if not, we can be easily be transformed to the world.
smbga: You are assuming all homosexuality is a sin - its only a sin the way heterosexuality is a sin.
thefollower: Spot on assessment!
smbga: I was pretty sure that was what you were going to say - but they weren't homosexual. They were inhospitable and they were rapists. You're confusing the two. Homosexuals aren't any more likely to sexually assault than a straight person and the gay folks that I know are among the most hospitable people I know.
One thing for sure: There is no debate, forum, discussion, etc....in heaven. God's Word is forever settled in heaven. It sure isn't settled on earth. How sad