Two highly respected theologians recently began a debate on why God would allow so much suffering in the world if He is good and all-powerful.
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Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?
By
Jennifer Riley
Christian Post Reporter
Thu, Apr. 24 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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Comments
mane3366, Epicurus's Trilemma or any variant thereof is a false trilemma.
Why would “God” be required to completely prevent suffering, if “God” is able and willing to completely eliminate suffering according to "his" own timing?
BTW, it appears as though your objection relies on equivocating the concepts of “is” and “ought.” Specifically, you are trying to define who and what “God” “is” according to who and what “God” “ought” to be in your eyes. So, as a result, if you believe that “God” “ought” to completely prevent suffering, then you say that “God” cannot exist because suffering still exists.
However, since the idea that “God” “ought” to completely prevent suffering is subjective opinion, the soundness of the said trilemma falls apart.
Hi, I´ve been interested in this subject for years and read many opinions on the issue of God and suffering and i must say that there is no way we can explain how a Omnipotent and Good God would allow suffering, especially of the inocent.
Teologitians try every kind of twist of language and concept but it just doesnt do it...its simpy impossible...human suffering cant be compatible with an omnipotent and good God.
So there are 4 hipotesys:
1. God is not Omnipotent
2. God is not Good.
3. There is no God.
4. Our rational mind simply cannot understand what is going on, so these discutions have no meaning.
aimes said...
<<If you care to invest some time into learning the truth, you should start with a great book, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. >>
Josh MacDowell has sullied his reputation with what I believe to be a "false testimony." He makes several false claims about his life, his family and his travel, and when he was faced with it he blamed the writer who wrote the article.
I don't read material written by discredited, nonpeer-reviewed sources. Josh Mac Dowell is not a scientist, he's a religious zealot.
What really bothers me is as a "Christian," he's willing to lie to people in order to make others think more highly of him, than he may be lying in his books.
aimes said...
<<Ancient cities and civilizations only mentioned in the Bible, like Jericho and Ur have been excavated. Outside witnesses, such as the Jewish historian Josephus, the 1st century Roman Tacitus, and Emperor Trajan, among others, attest to the fact that many of the stores mentioned in the Bible are true. >>
Do you believe then, that EVERYTHING written in the Bible is true? Do you for instance believe animals talked, the sun stopped in the sky, the sun revolves around the Earth? Those three questionable Bible errors are proof enough to me that mythology, a desire for human understanding of a good explanation and religiously inspired thinking of the two are the crux of the matter. However, you are free to believe what you will, DID I ever say otherwise? No, I only spoke that my beliefs are for myself.
<<It is obvious to me that you only wish to argue your point, and God is not the author of confusion.>>
So asking questions that are pertinant to the topic demonstrates I only wish to argue? BTW, I'm not confused. I am however disappointed that you haven't answered any of my questions.
aimes said
<<But if you only care to sit here and argue and be condescending, then you can continue making your “point” online just the way you are. As for me however, it is time for me to read my Bible.>>
I'm being condescending because I have "dared" to challenged your Biblically based knowledge? I asked you several questions and none of them got an answer. Asking legitimate questions that are pertinent to the topic is not condescending. However, calling people "Dear One," and saying "You seem to have a problem with God," and "You have animosity towards God" is condescending. Why? Because it suggests that you think you know me better than I know myself, and take a tone that suggests my attitude is out of line. I presented my questions honestly, and instead of you answering them, you ANALYZED by behavior.
Will you please rethink my questions and answer them?
<<And as far as you thinking you’re not a sinner. Romans 3:23 says you are.>>
It doesn't matter to me, what the Bible says, the Bible has 143 contradictions in it, so why should I believe I am a sinner if someone got some things wrong. People are wrong ALL the time, it's forgivable in my estimation, but if there are identifiably 143 contradictions, needless to say someone claiming to be inspired by God may just be wrong about sin. However, you can believe you are sinful ALL you want, heck, you can call me sinner until you lose your voice, I however, am not obliged in the least to accept that theory.
<<And since the Bible was inspired by God and is His word, I prefer to believe what He says about you, rather than what you say about yourself. May God Bless you and keep you, always.>>
No, "and since YOU believe the Bible is inspired by God... " can you see where you're being condescending? Your claiming an impossibility- you can not prove the Bible is anymore inspired by God than you can prove A Theif in The Night is.
However, you ignored my questions in order to puff yourself up in an attempt to demonstrate your beliefs are superior to mine- well, there's the proof that you'd be hard pressed at this point in the venture to disprove just how condescending you really are being to me. Do you have any more rocks to throw at me in the name of your lord?
lewr2 said...
<<Hautechick.... how do you know you just die? Have you ever just died? >>
I think this is what I actually said, "The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE." I have had family members, friends and have read about alot of people who have died to conclude it is a NATURAL fact of life. Do you think maybe you just missed my point, or do you think others who read this won't be able to read what I actually wrote? And, do you really think people reading this board can't spot your illogic?
Hautechick.... how do you know you just die? Have you ever just died?
hautechick:
Much of what I say can and has been substantiated outside of the Bible. There are secular text, including Roman and Greek text that confirm some of the stories in the Bible. There is extra biblical evidence, including archaeological and historical finds that substantiate it. There are skeletal remains being found the world over, on the top of mountains and summits that point to the "probability" that at one time, the entire earth may have been covered in water- the universal flood. And it’s good that you have studied and read about other religions, but I do believe that only in Christianity is such a bold claim made, that we are all sinners in need of a Savior, and that the only way to salvation is through One, and that Is Jesus Christ and Him alone. One great thing about the Bible that no other book can claim is the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies. Other religious books and so called “prophets” made claims, and they were wrong. But the prophecies in the Bible have come true, and we are still waiting for others to be fulfilled. Not one prophecy was given by God, and was false. And since you like back up, read Gen 3:15, which was fulfilled in Galatians 4:4, read Isaiah 7:14, which was fulfilled in Matthew 1:18, read Gen 22:18, which was fulfilled in Matt 1:1. I could go on and on, but I have to get to reading my Bible.
Ancient cities and civilizations only mentioned in the Bible, like Jericho and Ur have been excavated. Outside witnesses, such as the Jewish historian Josephus, the 1st century Roman Tacitus, and Emperor Trajan, among others, attest to the fact that many of the stores mentioned in the Bible are true. It is obvious to me that you only wish to argue your point, and God is not the author of confusion. If you care to invest some time into learning the truth, you should start with a great book, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
But if you only care to sit here and argue and be condescending, then you can continue making your “point” online just the way you are. As for me however, it is time for me to read my Bible. And as far as you thinking you’re not a sinner. Romans 3:23 says you are. And since the Bible was inspired by God and is His word, I prefer to believe what He says about you, rather than what you say about yourself. May God Bless you and keep you, always.
aimes said...
<<I don’t need to know you, but I know that as a human, you are a sinner, and the wages of sin is death.>>
I don't recall asking you to know me. I don't usually get to know others through the internet. I prefer to get to know others by meeting them face to face. I think that you should reserve your judgment that "as a human you are a sinner" for those who believe that. I don't happen to believe that statement. Just as you are free to believe you are a sinner saved by grace, I am free to believe that I do not sin. The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE.
aimes said...
<<Regarding suffering- Why does God allow suffering to exist in the world? There are numerous reasons, and I’m sure there are a few that we don’t even know. First, suffering is usually the result of what we ourselves have done.>>
You said "usually, the result of what we ourselves have done" soooo, I'm not suffering in the least, and I bet I could find many others who'll attest to not suffering; so you can't possibly be correct in your assumption.
<<Our past sins may cause us to endure suffering.>>
Past sins as in former lives- do you believe in reincarnation?
<<Secondly, suffering increases perseverance, which strengthens our faith in God and our testimonies to His faithfulness.>>
I persever, am having a great life, have great relationships and and am very healthy, sooo, how does that make your assumption correct?
<<Thirdly, suffering exists because humans are agents of free will.>>
So are you saying because of FREE WILL humans cause the suffering of others? Then it can't be evil or a devil behind the suffering, right?
aimes said...
<<hautechick:
What do you think about God? After reading your e-mails, it appears to me (and I don’t know you, and I am not judging you, but I am basing it on the tone of your e-mails here), that you do have a problem with God. You have some sort of animosity towards Him, or maybe you feel He let you down or something.
I think about GOD as any reasonable person raised does. I just don't buy into the mythology about GOD. I have studied other religions and most have very similar explanations for the Creation story, the "Fall of Man" and the redemption story. I have no problem at all with God, I just experience God differently than perhaps you do, and if that makes me seem like I have a problem, than you are wron.
The irony is, as I read your post to me, is that while I express myself and my understanding of God in realistic terms with honesty and facts, you can't substantiate what you say with anything outside the Bible.
FWIW, I have no animosity towards God, and I don't feel God has let me down at all- my life is above prosperous, my health is excellent, my family and friends love me and I love them, and yet I would never dare to say it's because God favors me or something ludicris as that.
hautechick:
What do you think about God? After reading your e-mails, it appears to me (and I don’t know you, and I am not judging you, but I am basing it on the tone of your e-mails here), that you do have a problem with God. You have some sort of animosity towards Him, or maybe you feel He let you down or something. However, you need to know that God is a sovereign God, and as such, is free to do anything He pleases, and no one, NO ONE can make a case against Him because He is sovereign! However, He is a loving and merciful God, and cares for us tremendously. In fact, the Bible says that God doesn’t wish for any of us to perish, but for us all to come to repentance (that includes you). He is fair and just. We all deserve to die for the sins we have committed. I don’t need to know you, but I know that as a human, you are a sinner, and the wages of sin is death. Right there, God would be justified in allowing each and every last one of us to perish, and we would have no defense to counter it. But that’s not what He wants.
Humans in heaven will be better behaved because in heaven, you get a glorified body, just like Jesus after His resurrection. There is no sin in heaven. Those in heaven are those who truly love God, and submitted to Him and His will here on earth. Therefore, we have no problems submitting to Him in heaven. Those who oppose God, and continue doing their own will and engaging in carnal and wicked things in opposition to God, will end up in hell with the false prophet and the anti Christ(Rev 20:15). The DEVIL and his DEMONS will not be in Heaven (Rev 20:10), influence us to do wicked things in opposition of Gods will. Therefore, sin is GONE. This is why we’ll be “better- behaved” in heaven. And yes, Heaven does exist – read Matthew 5:3, Matthew 5:48, Matthew 11:11, Revelation 21: 3-4, Acts 2:2, and so does HELL read Luke 16:23, revelation 19:20.
If you are truly serious about knowing God, I would encourage you to say a prayer, a simple one, and ask God to reveal Himself to you. Sit down, and maybe read a couple of chapters from the Bible. I’d recommend the book of John, because it’s a great place to start, and truly tells a lot about the character of God. If you are sincere, and are truly seeking God, you will find Him.
God is always in control. He is the Creator of ALL things, which is stated in the Bible numerous times (Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 45:18, Genesis 1:1). The Bible is the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God. Therefore, no, you cannot separate God from the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God breathed. The Holy Spirit also helps in interpreting the Bible. Even when Jesus, God’s own son was being beaten and crucified, God did not stop it, but allowed it. In fact, over 200 Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled through Jesus Christ. God knew exactly what would happen to Jesus, and it happened. He didn’t cause it, but allowed it. If Jesus Himself was broken and crucified, what makes you think you are any better? What makes you think God should save you from suffering when Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Messiah Himself endured suffering? While all but one of the apostles were martyred for what they knew and what they taught, why are you so special that God should prevent any harm from coming to you?
God knew that humans would be selfish, wicked unworthy sinners, and yet still He created us, loves us, and gives us opportunities to repent. That is why I praise Him! Of course He knew humans would screw things up, and have to be “saved”, but He had it all planned. It’s like if you have kids, you know your kids will give you some discomfort and problems, yet we are still willing to have them. God is the same way, He is our Father and loves us, and still wants a relationship with us. It’s a wonder He didn’t just destroy us all and move on, because I know He could have. He must think we’re really worth something.
Regarding suffering- Why does God allow suffering to exist in the world? There are numerous reasons, and I’m sure there are a few that we don’t even know. First, suffering is usually the result of what we ourselves have done. Our past sins may cause us to endure suffering. Secondly, suffering increases perseverance, which strengthens our faith in God and our testimonies to His faithfulness. Thirdly, suffering exists because humans are agents of free will. As long as you are on earth with free will, you can apply your free will to someone else’s disadvantage, thus increasing their suffering. A fourth reason God allows suffering can be found in the book of Job, which by the way, is a great book to read to learn more about the reasons we humans suffer. I think the answer might surprise you. Tell us why did God allow Job to endure so much suffering?
ronwilson4u: So does that mean that because both of my parents died a miserable, slow death that they are being punished more than anyone else who didn't die a painful slow death younger than they reasonable should have expected? Or were they being punished in general for all of mankinds' sin? I have my doubts on both counts.
Suffering and death are a direct result of sin, and all have sinned, so all people on earth experience suffering caused by life's trials and tribulations and everyone faces the prospect of death. This is not paradise. The wonderful promise of God is eternal life in a glorified body with no suffering, which is the hope of every Christian.
Hope Page: itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
The reason I "clarified" that it is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is because it is important to know the origin of the use of terms, especially when explaining that the creation/fall is symbolic mythology- all cultures have and passed onto generations fables, allegories, mythologies and heroic tales in their oral history traditions. It explained in unelightened terms how humans arrived on this planet.
A FABLE is a brief, succinct story, in prose or verse, that features animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature which are anthropomorphized (given human qualities), and that illustrates a moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be expressed explicitly in a pithy maxim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable
A fable differs from a parable in that the latter excludes animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as actors that assume speech and other powers of humankind.
<<God created the tree of good and evil (same word). >>
Actually, it's called The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or in some translations The Tree of Conscience.
According to the Jewish tradition God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree that was to give free choice and allow them to earn, as opposed to receive, absolute perfection and intimate communion with God at a higher level than the one on which they were created. According to this tradition, Adam and Eve would have attained absolute perfection and retained immortality had they succeeded in withstanding the temptation to eat from the Tree. After failing at this task, they were condemned to a period of toil to rectify the fallen universe. Jewish tradition views the serpent, and sometimes the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil itself, as representatives of evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil
<<Your problem is not with the interpretation of the Bible, your problem is with God. If you deny His book, you deny Him.>>
Oh really? That's interesting because I asked you some questions in my first response which you totally ignored and instead presented both red herring and straw man fallacies and consdescention.
Oh, and how do my questions to you indicate that I have a problem with God? A real answer would be nice.
My questions and responses FACTUALLY indicate that I only have a problem with YOUR interpretation of the Bible.
<<Dear one, it doesn't have to be this way.>>
It doesn't have to be "what way?
<<Search His book, search His mind. If you truly, honestly and sincerly seek Him, you shall not be disappointed.>>
How could you possibly know whether or not I have searched His Book or His mind? I find it quite ironic that you would make such declarations about me, offer advice, and yet have absolutely no idea who I am in real life or for that matter what I believe.
<< But never can you separate Him from His word.>>
Is that statement you are presenting as FACT found in the Bible or is it a religious tradition?
<<This is impossible and not worthy of attempt.>>
Impossible for whom, and why is it not worthy of an attempt?
Is this impossibility also articulated in the Bible or is it yet another human religious tradition?
<<You follow your master well, and have learned his lessons well. Always attempting to shift the burden of proof back to us.>>
Do you assume I follow a "master" because I have chosen to question your statements?Statements which, by the way, you presented as FACT. When one presents something as a FACT, it raises the question to the authenticity of said facts, and it's only logical that the burden of proof is yours to answer.
However, you completely ignored my questions, and instead deferred the discussion to a rather condesending reply and resorted to straw man fallacy.
<<Hautechick, dear one, if you have a problem with the beginning of the book which said "In the beginning", then you have a problem with the entire book. And if you have a problem with the entire book, then you have a problem with God.>>
By my asking you questions about your statements, or asking you for proof, I am in no way claiming to have a problem with the Book. You have presented a red herring fallacy because apparently you couldn't answer my questions, no? If I don't believe in the Bible or do not accept the Bible as an ultimate authority, that in no way affects my relationship with God, or my understanding of God. I would have to deferr that I have somewhat of a better understanding of God than most, because according to the prophet Jeremiah(the Book found in the Bible)"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,' says the Lord." Jeremiah 31:32-34
According to "THE WORD" God gave me his law, it's in my mind, and he wrote it on my heart therefore I don't feel the need as many do to worship a book people call the Bible, or accept it as FACT especially when I can read it and find the errors that are both obvious and difficult to find.
Hi Daniel Paul, thanks for the response. I'm not sure that is the real question. God could create everything and still not be an accessory to the evil that happens. We're talking hypotheticals of course as there isn't a lot of scripture that covers what we are specifically talking about.
Hello! Ifeelfine72.
It's interesting that the word translated 'evil' is the Hebrew word ra' (rah) which means "adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, great grief and the list goes on (the word is Hebrew 7451 in Strongs). These are disciplines used by the Lord to teach the sheep. God created the tree of good and evil (same word). Unlike English, Hebrew and Greek have many words where we would just have one. You have to make sure the right word is being used.
Now to the other side of the arguement. God created the angels with a will (much like us). It was an angel who made a bad choice and thus became the (a) "angel of darkness". Once again, God is not a control freak. Never the less there is nothing that controls Him.
Isn't the real question if God is responsible for unrighteous evil happening as in is He an accessory to it? The answer would be no. If he was he would eliminate it in an instant and our choice to love him along with it (and I'm a bit of a Calvinist myself!). There would have been no need for Jesus to die at all as there would have never been the choice to sin. But that isn't love now is it?
DanielPaul: According to the Bible, God said he is responsible for bringing everything into the world, including evil. Check out Isaiah 45:7.
I'm surprised more folks haven't tackled this particular topic . . . admittedly, this is one of the toughest topics for Christians to take on. I don't have a good take on it either but would have thought some of the other CP members would.
Well now... let's see. If mankind didn't have a choice in the matter then we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? :-)
Truth be known I have 6 children. One of them is in the Army and has learned that dad isn't quite as 'uninformed' as he once thought .... The problem wasn't with me but rather with what he was willing to believe about me. He is responsible for his choices. (Yep...I'm proud of him! Go Army!) God gave us everything we needed to still be in the garden. However, He isn't a control freak who makes us do whatever He wants. He gives us the responsibility to know what is right and do it. The truth is we cannot know what is right until we exchange our lives for the life of Christ.
He did not bring evil into the world. If he didn't allow the opportuntiy then there would be no choice to love Him. We would have no other option. Is that love? Truth is a harsh thing some times. The truth is we just don't pay attention unless we understand bad things will happen. Who checks their speedometer when they see a police car in their mirror?
Either God is a loving God and we are responsible for the mess we are in -or- God is a control freak who controls everyone and everything because He is responsible for anything bad that happens. There is a difference between He causes and He allows. As loving parents, we allow our children to do things we may not agree with. Why? So they can grow.
I figured out a ways back that you can't understand God while you're blaming Him for your mistakes. Just remember, a loving God can use your mistakes and help you grow through them.
JC "God didn't allow it, we did. Who brought sin into the World, God or humans? It was by our actions (humans) that allowed this. "
Given the nature of man, why would God expect humans to be perfect and without sin. How would it be possible for humans to be perfect. Why would God not have known this before he created humans? An engineer usually has a pretty good idea how something is going to perform before its built. Why would God the engineer not know the outcome of the creation? If he did know, then why would God hold humans accountable, after all God was the creator.
Why would humans in heaven be any better behaved than on earth unless some sort of transformation were to occur similar to say a lobotomy where humans would lose free thinking and free will, in essence becoming robots conforming to behavior consistent with an eternal autocratic theocracy - "heaven".
To hautechick:
You follow your master well, and have learned his lessons well. Always attempting to shift the burden of proof back to us.
Hautechick, dear one, if you have a problem with the beginning of the book which said "In the beginning", then you have a problem with the entire book. And if you have a problem with the entire book, then you have a problem with God. Either you accept Him or you don't, but you cannot separate Him from His word. This is impossible. It is written in Rev. 19:13 "He is dressed in a robed dipped in blood, and His name is the Word of God". Your problem is not with the interpretation of the Bible, your problem is with God. If you deny His book, you deny Him.
Dear one, it doesn't have to be this way. Search His book, search His mind. If you truly, honestly and sincerly seek Him, you shall not be disappointed. But never can you separate Him from His word. This is impossible and not worthy of attempt.
Everything whether good or bad is allowed by God. Bad is never his will. But when it happens, it is allowed by Him.
What I learned in Bible school. "Heat softens the wax, and hardens the clay." " Who is the Lord,
that I should obey Him? ",said Pharoh. "Though He slay me yet will I trust him, said the prophet.
Samson lost his eyes that he might see.
Strudelcookies
I agree, it's not that difficult if you read your Bible and understand it. God's Word says we walk by faith and not by sight. The scenario you describe is exactly about that. God does strike every evil person with a thunderbolt nor does he reward every good deed instantly. Something else that is not recognized in the article is that God does answer many many people's prayers everyday, the complaining people then are indicating that it is not near enough to suite them. What place are we in to judge God anyway considering that he personally created us just 6000 years ago? God has given us enough information and he answers enough prayers and he controls things in our life enough to help us grow into the people he wants us to be to prepare us to live in Heaven with him for all eternity and that is the most important thing.
The Bible also tells us that this world in this present time belongs to Satan and that is the main reason so many bad things happen. This time is fast coming to an end and will soon be far behind us and in the world to come everything will again be restored to perfection like it was when God first created the world with Adam and Eve. In the beginning God told us what not to do and mankind disobeyed and it brings the saying to mind "we have made our bed, now we are going to have to lie in it". Something to remember though is that these bad things do help us walk closer to God which is what he wants and in the long run this is for our benefit; for the rebellious that is not true.
The Bible also says that in the last days perilous times will come and these will help make the godly more so and the ungodly more so. God prefers that we be cold or hot and not lukewarm. This is one way of separating the wheat from the chafe. He that endures to the end shall be saved. To all, don't be dissuaded by bad things, hang in there, it will pass.
God didn't allow it, we did. Who brought sin into the World, God or humans? It was by our actions (humans) that allowed this. The Earth was a paradise before the fall of man, no suffering, no hidden dangers, no death. This all changed when man fell.
If this were not so, one could also expect to find suffering in Heaven, which will never be the case.
To 24elders,
God permitted Satan to afflict Job.
I think that sometimes God just smiles down on us and is happy that we're asking questions.
He loves the theologian as much as he loves the atheist.
It seems to me that our souls live in animal bodies placed on a somewhat hostile (though beautiful) world. I think of this ride through life as a trip on a roller coaster. It is fun, beautiful, terrifying, and dangerous. If I did not believe the roller coaster ride would end, it would be torturous. I love the ride though because I have accepted the resurrection, I know this ride will end and I will in soon reside in heaven.
24elders said...
<<Suffering is a symptom of satan and his fallen state. We as Christians are not all to blame. As the statesman once said "evil will presist when good men do nothing". >>
So you're willing to admit in this statement, "The biblical stupids and bible thumpers will always blame others for the shortcomings of man and their governments" or blame another imaginary scapegoat you called Satan and then turn around and contradict everything you attempted to establish as your hypothisis with this, "evil will presist when good men do nothing." It appears that you are confused about some things. If evil(and suffering is a result of evil)will persist when GOOD men do nothing, that seems to me we humans are the guilty ones not God and not Satan and not Adam- every human being possesses the ability to end the suffering of others- share, treat others as you would have them treat you, love your enemies, care for the sick, feed the poor... it's a pretty straightforward approach to ending suffering, yet the proverbial mark is missed ALL the time.
PS. I flagged my own post because I had an incomplete sentance and I corrected it.
akonda said,
<<God himself says that those He loves He chastises.>>
How does one prove that it was GOD who said that? Anyone may make a claim that GOD himself said anything, but it remains unproven. And who says God is a "himself?" Has anyone ever determined with authenticity the gender of this GOD?
FWIW, some people believe that prophets, and priests were the ones who received GOD'S words and laws and gave them to the people. Who's to say these priests or prophets weren't speaking for themselves?
Historically, several other cultures put in place almost identical laws or codes for humans to live by, and some did not attribute their laws or codes to words spoken by a "GOD" but out of necessity to the avancement of civilization. These almost identical laws or codes preexist the covenant Moses and the Isrealites made with YHWH.
<<So i can see how a loving God can allow His children to suffer and the concepts of suffering and his existence in this case arent mutually exclusive.>>
I honestly can't see logic in that, it's irresponsible in my opinion to blame GOD or an outside source on things that are evidently human in causation. Humans are responsible for the inability to sustain their families and ultimately the human race- even if a natural disaster like draught, insect infestation or crop failure were to take place, there are precautions that could have prevented such disasters. Therefore it is not GOD allowing, instigating or causing things to happen.
<<how can one assume that both these concepts are mutually exclusive? any thoughts on this?>>
It is a religious dilemma posed throughout HISTORY, and used as a means to manipulate the gullible. IMHO fear, superstition and control over others is one of the roots of the GOD debate.
I am sick and tired of the biblical ignorance out there about suffering. YES suffering is not from God. Man's suffering is an inherited from the first man Adam. Through Adam death and suffering entered this world age(eon). Man is responsible for death and suffering in this world. Jesus paid the price for our sins IF we repent. The mystery of iniquity and the wickdeness of man will continue until the return of Christ. GOD can't allow suffering if He is not responsible for it. God is PERFECT. The bible tells us we will suffer for a short season. The biblical stupids and bible thumpers will always blame others for the shortcomings of man and their governments. Suffering is a symptom of satan and his fallen state. We as Christians are not all to blame. As the statesman once said "evil will presist when good men do nothing". We can help the suffering. We can help the poor. Only God can HEAL his children and feed His sheep. This wicked world age is quickly coming to an end. As Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin so does man blame God for the pain and suffering in this world. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. As the nations rage Fathers perfect plan will run it's course. Do you understand it?
D.V.
chk555,
the question is about the existence/non-existence of God. It isnt about how wrong suffering is. suffering when brought about by fellow humans is wrong. the question then becomes why would a loving God allow people to suffer at others hands or even during say calamities or why would He being sovereign decree something like that? scripture gives many reasons why God allows us to suffer. it can be used to increase our faith, to punish some, etc etc. but whatever the reason, Gods purpose is fulfilled even when it seems unfair. we need to remember that his ways arent our ways and his thoughts arent our thoughts. the way i would look at it is
a) there is God
b) He is holy, just and good
c) so whenever people suffer He has a good enough reason to allow it to happen
To say that suffering precludes the existence of God assumes that both the concepts are mutually exclusive. God himself says that those He loves He chastises. So i can see how a loving God can allow His children to suffer and the concepts of suffering and his existence in this case arent mutually exclusive. how can one assume that both these concepts are mutually exclusive? any thoughts on this?
Why does God allow suffering? Because if people who did good things always had good things happen to them, and people who did bad thing always had bad things happening to them, then no one would do the right thing for the right reason.
Geez, I can't believe theologians are fighting over this.
I could never follow the logic of thinking, "Because there is so much suffering there is no God!" Well if there is no God, then what's wrong with so much suffering? Who is there to blame? Why even make the statement if you “really” are convinced that God does not exist? Can any of the geniuses in here answer these?
We live in a world filled with sin, which explains all the suffering. You might as well ask "why is there sin in the world?" which is explained clearly in Holy Scriptures. Suffering in this life is for a short time, and the justice of God is determined by what happens in eternity. Trials and tribulations test our faith and often lead a person have a deeper, closer relationship and sense of dependance on God--our Father in Heaven, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit.
Hope Page: itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
From the article...
<<The all-powerful and all-loving God allowed his son Jesus to be crucified, which is not what is commonly associated with the idea of power, he highlighted.>>
"God" allows criminals to be executed ALL the time. Humans make those decions, and apparently some people don't want to be logical or forthright about the matter. Jesus according to his trial was branded a criminal by Roman standards.
HISTORICALLY, many thousands of insugents who lead civilian uprisings in Ireal and Palestine were executed prior to, around and after the time of Jesus. Jesus upset the religious leaders, the legalists and King Herod, who was put on the throne by ROME. It makes sense to me why Jesus was executed like a criminal, his teachings, like many other Isrealite prophets, went against the state policies and religious staus quo. Jesus angered those who were comfortable with exploiting the poor, the workers and those who were heaping riches unto themselves on the backs of the peasant, craftspeople and working classes.
Humans in power tend to execute/assassinate those who take a stand for social justice or make waves exposing the criminal intent of those who exploit others. As examples, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and John Kennedy come to mind.
From the article...
<<the Bishop of Durham added to his argument, pointing out that during Jesus’ time it also did not appear like God was in control. Jews believed if the messiah came then it would mean victory for Israel against her enemies and new levels of purity attained.>>
It's obvious, at least to me, that GOD as many understand the concept was not and is not IN CONTROL. But before some of you dismiss me as an athiest or agnostic, please understand that it is your perception based on your assumptions. God would be in control if we actually understood the teachings of Jesus when the writer of 1st John articulated this scripture in chapter 4 verses 20 and 21...
20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
What is loving a brother or a sister or our enemies, if not meeting their most basic needs, food, water, and shelter? The reason most UNDER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES suffer these horrible disasters is because their corrupt officials do not guarantee them public safety, disaster relief and avoidable danger in the face of NATURAL DISASTERS.
Why should GOD be blamed for recognizable HUMAN failures? Doesn't the scripture tell us WE are HIS hands and feet?
What are your hands and feet doing to exemplify God's love towards others by ensuring they have food, water, and shelter?