United Methodists declared Monday a "banner day" as they approved a full communion agreement with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
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United Methodists OK Full Communion with Lutherans
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Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Apr. 30 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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Comments
Chris333
We have different denominaions because of theological differences. I thank God that Martin Luther, when he realized that the Catholic Church was wrong in 95 different areas left the Catholic Church and started the Protestant Reformation. From there as others began to see more accurately than Martin Luther in areas left his following and started their own Church (denomination). Then others saw more accurately then they and left and started yet another denomination.
God has had His hand on the Protestant Reformation and the emerging of different denominations. However, many of these denominations have sunk into heretical teachings.
Is it inheritantly evil to have different denominations? Yes, in the sense that each denomination has their own interpretation to scripture, each have there own biblical error and as a result they don't speak with one voice to the world God's Word.
I believe God wants the Church of Jesus Christ to speak with one voice but that voice needs to be a mouth piece of His Word. This is something we don't have today.
I think it is more evil to have denominations speak with one voice but that the voice is in direct contradiction to the Word of God.
Unity for the sake of unity at the loss of Biblical Truth is EVIL!
Chris333: I'm sorry, I was agreeing with you! That the body is made up of many parts, but not by denominations. God calls for us to be in unity and that doesn't get accomplished by denominations. I apologize for not making my won point, lol, I don't agree with the Roman Catholic churches teaching on Communion and a few other teachings they espouse or anyone faith keeping anyone from the Communion with Jesus Christ.
The whole point of His death was to restore us back to The Father, which He has done, God has done His part; and it seems to me that some, not all, want to keep us from having a personal, relationship with the Lord; and if brethren can take communion together, they can certainly worship/praise our Lord together.
Personally speaking, here in the New England, those denominational walls have been coming down for the last few years and it is getting stronger! We're having more worship/praise services, conferences, and our own ten days of prayer in western Mass...believe me when I tell you that many in New England are praying for revival in our area and in our nation.
Folks, it isn't about Mary, or you or I; it is all about Jesus Christ! He was the One crucified for or sins, not mary, and He was the One beaten for our transgression. Now, Mary was an obedient vessel, and she is a woman to honor, but not worship or prayer to even. She is not God, and she is not the Mother of God, God has no mother....Jesus Christ, was birthed by Mary, and He is the God Man!
Faith should be in God alone, not in any created being. Not one of us created beings can change anyone or anything, the Lord God alone is Creator!
God isn't interested in any "Religion"; He is interested in having a personal, relationship with each one of His children. WE are the "Children of God" those of us who call upon His Name, God adopts us into His family, that includes anyone who repents of their sin, and acknowledges that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God, The Father, In Jesus Name, Amen!
JESUS is LORD!
WalkinwithJesusChrist,
Agreed with all of your points. Are you talking to me though? If not who?
I didn't say that their joining communion was a bad thing, I said it was not enough, and the fact that they remain two separate bodies is illogical and possibly inherently evil.
The different parts of the Body of Christ you are referring to are speaking specifically about individuals within the Church, not the Church itself. I don't think Paul had Lutherans and Methodists in mind when he said that, and the context does not support it either.
I have yet to hear a good reason for denominations, and none have refuted my allegations that they are a bad thing.
Communion: The Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is a remembrance of what our Lord did for us, and all we recognize and proclaim His death until HE comes!
Jesus does NOT have a divided body, there are many parts to the body, but they are not separate, they have different functions, but they are united in Jesus Christ, so they should be coming together and having communion!! When we are united in Christ, this blesses us and pleases the LORD!
All those folks that want to keep people from The Communion are not speaking for Jesus Christ!
I participate in the "Lord's Supper"; The Communion because I am a sinner, saved by Grace, and I am recognizing that I NEED MORE OF JESUS CHRIST!!
HE paid the highest price for me to be set free and I am not going to allow anyone to take me back to slavery! Freedom in Christ doesn't mean license to sin, it means that when I do fall, I RUN to Jesus Christ and repent, and HE lovingly restores me; so I can be in full relationship with HIM! Thank you, Father God, Lord Jesus, and Thank you, Holy Spirit for the TRUTH!!!
The Lord God loves us folks; and in Jesus Christ HE has restored the world back to Himself, God has done His part; He is waiting for you to recognize who you are in Him and repent of your sin, so you can turn and have that personal relationship with Him. He is right there with you, HE has never left anyone of us! I pray that HE will open the eyes of your heart to see Him and your ears to hear Him! In Jesus Name, and for His glory!
By the way Cecil,
I too was raised Lutheran, but I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholic, and Presbyterian Churches. It is very frustrating to me that there is often a Baptist, Methodist and Lutheran Church all right beside each other, all reaching out to the same people, and all nearly competing for the most members.
Glad to have you on CP,
God Bless,
Chris
Cecil (continued)
"Why is it illogical for Methodists and ELCA Lutherans to recognize full communion?"
It is not, I did not say it was, I said it was illogical for the to recognize full communion and yet stay separated physically. They agree on all major points of doctrine and would be much more efficient as one body.
"What is your basis for claiming that it is shameful for us to act this way?"
1 Corinthians 10 "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought."
Paul also denounces those who call themselves after a persons name, such as Apollos, Peter, or Paul. (I think we could add Luther, Calvin, Wesley...etc.) Let us call ourselves Christians.
Regarding what happened to you, absolutely it is shameful and unthinkable. I condemn it, as I know Paul and Christ would have condemned it. Still, we should not have these names, and there is no reason other than 1) money or 2) pride/tradition. Can you present one possible benefit we can gain from being divided and calling ourselves Lutheran or Methodist? Also, when you are before God in Heaven are you going to say, "I am a Lutheran" or are you going to say, "I am a Christian"?
"This is NOT a pride issue! Our faith is first and foremost and because of that, we are NOT prideful!"
If it is not a pride issue, then I cannot see what it is. If we believe the other is doctrinally inferior, then let us reason together and find the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit, if we do not see anything wrong, then let us be united. This seems painfully obvious to me, which is why I do not have much tolerance for denominations, no matter how superficial they are.
"Hey, we may not agree on everything, but we DO agree that we can join together and serve God in many and various ways! AMEN!"
It would be by far more efficient, productive, and powerful for us to be united in one body, pooling our resources, and witnessing to the outside world as one, than it is for us to cooperate like two business with mutual interests. Let us work towards being perfectly united, and let us do so quickly.
Cecil,
Welcome to Christian Post and thanks for posting! I love to be challenged and I am glad you did so that I can clarify my position and hopefully we can reach agreement.
You said, " And the very fact that we are all sinners prevents any church on this broken earth from claiming an infallible teaching. Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational--NO ONE can honestly say that they are on the same level as GOD and that their teachings are exclusively true! "
Agreed, but with minor points of difference. The truth is that no one claims equality with God, not even the Pope (I am not Catholic though). The idea is whether the Church is being "infallibly" led by God, or whether every man is for himself. You mentioned how the Early Apostles were "inspired" to write the Bible etc. This is true, now the debate is about whether the Holy Spirit is continuing to inspire the Church (via councils, and if RCC Papal prerogatives).
In other words, the question is not whether or not the RCC or Eastern Orthodox have the right to pronounce doctrine, it is whether God is leading them to recognize correct doctrine. However, my purpose on this post is not to debate Catholic/Orthodox ideas, I am more concerned with inter-Protestant workings.
(Response Continued)
Cecil1039,
I was raised ALC and then ELCA Lutheran. I would like to say the Lutheran church is chock full of people with your same commitment, but I did not find it so. Most of the time it resembled the Sons Of Norway auxiliary more than the body of Christ.
Does this now mean that the UMC will prostitute the Lutheran church and spread its poison to get the Lutherans to accept sexual perversity??!!??
REPENT,. FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!!
msnchris70...
I have not defamed, bad mouthed, or slandered biblical Mary. You do err in your accusatory attack concerning me. I accept all that the written word speaks about biblical Mary. I will not accept fables, legends, gross scriptural misinterpretations or fly upon the swelling winds of tradition that have not the anchor of God’s word.
Shuckcreations, take a deep breath. If someone is inquiring about the Catholic faith, that is the point of reference they should start with. I would encourage anyone who has questions about Catholicism to read/reference the catechism as it helps to clarify our faith. You obviously have strong feelings and beliefs about the topic. Have you read any of the catechism ?
I don't understand the significance of this action other than another couple churches spending tens of thousands to meet and talk over powers and principalities within their own clubs while the widows, orphans, sick, thirsty, hungry, and poor go happily about their merry way.
By the way, this forum is getting very petty and nasty. Didn't Paul say that we should be of one mind? It sounds like we're splitting the one mind between us......
Don't be led into petty religion, there is too much to do.
continuing...
In response to Chris333, as a Lutheran (ELCA), I do not believe that our church--or any church for that matter--possesses the fullness of truth. Are we not all sinners? YES, we are! And the very fact that we are all sinners prevents any church on this broken earth from claiming an infallible teaching. Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational--NO ONE can honestly say that they are on the same level as GOD and that their teachings are exclusively true! The Bible was written by human beings who were inspired by God and the Spirit—just as the sermons are that your Pastor preaches week in and week out. The theology of EVERY church has been developed by humans through their interpretation of the Spirit’s inspiration.
Why is it illogical for Methodists and ELCA Lutherans to recognize full communion? What is your basis for claiming that it is shameful for us to act this way? I’ll tell you what is shameful, going to a Wisconsin Synod or LCMS worship service and being DENIDE participation in the Eucharist…being DENIED the very body and blood of Christ because I am viewed as an unrepentant outsider! That is shameful! I’ll tell you what else is shameful—playing in a church softball league and having WELS members REFUSING to pray with you before the game because you are an outsider. I felt second class! I wonder how Christ might feel about that?!
Chris333, you suggest that we throw away the names and serve God together. This is NOT a pride issue! Our faith is first and foremost and because of that, we are NOT prideful! Because of that, we are able to say, “Hey, we may not agree on everything, but we DO agree that we can join together and serve God in many and various ways! AMEN!
WOW, where to start…let me say that I have long read postings here but have never written a response…I love the open, honest dialogue so here goes…
GreatNW, you made the point that, “More of the fact that these two denominations are in decline and no one really cares all that much about them.” It’s true, these denominations are in a state of decline—I see it in my own church. But why is that? It’s NOT about the teaching that goes on there, it’s NOT about our theology, it’s not even for the most part about the divide over homosexuality or female ordination. What IS the overwhelming cause of decline boils down to this: In our “satisfy-me” society, those who are leaving NEED to be entertained and they WANT God to meet THEIR needs instead of reaching out to serve the Lord. They are more interested in an hour’s worth of “fluffy” Gospel than they are learning what it means to truly serve the Lord. Instead, they want God to serve them.
Then there is the whole group who do not introduce their children to God through regular church attendance and involvement in activities designed to help them grow in faith. When it comes to confirmation class, Sunday morning worship, and other youth events, my child will be there—not because I’m forcing him—but because my wife and I are teaching him about the love and grace of God and he WANTS to be there. We set aside our children’s spiritual lives and so easily give in because they “really, really want to play on the traveling softball team”, well that is a LIFESTYLE problem and NOT a DENOMINATIONAL problem. Again, if it doesn’t suit us, we have our little hissy-fit and bolt for a place that will accommodate our needs. I’ll continue in another post…
"John 14-6, I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism and begin reading."
Ummmm NO! I suggest you pull out your Bible and begin reading. This right here just furthers my stance on Catholic's extra doctrine. It's unbiblical and they seem to rely on it more than the Word itself. Intrigued, I can't believe you would ever suggest such a thing over the Bible!
File this story under, "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic". Sounds good on paper and in the press, but this move is not being done from a position of strength. More of the fact that these two denominations are in decline and no one really cares all that much about them. Thriving denominations never merge where as declining ones do....
So the Methodist and Lutheran Churches recognize full communion... what does that mean? Why don't they merge? Lutherans are Christians right? Methodists are Christians right? So let's throw away the names "Lutheran" and "Methodist" and replace it with Christ. Is it hard? Is it illogical? For Christians to act this way is shameful and against God.
Does anyone believe that Methodists possess the fullness of truth and are infallible in their teachings? Any Lutherans feel this way about the Lutheran Church? If not, then let's throw away the names, put our pride below our faith, and serve God together. If you cannot do this, then how on earth can you call yourself a Christian?
msnchris70
I can't believe you, who was once a Prostestant Pastor, could fall for the unbiblical teachings of the Catholic Church. It is just unbelieveable!
Wilderness,
Oh one more thing....ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED! So, it looks like you are not obeying scripture because you make too little of Mary if not defaming the MOTHER of GOD.
Remember my Protestant friend, Jesus was a human being. How would you like it if someone bad mouthed your mother??? I will pray that Jesus will forgive your slander against His mother, as I'm sure he doesn't like it irrespective of you defending Him. You need to get deeper into Scripture and deeper into history to understand why Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and many others have a special veneration of Mary. She is simply the best, the first and the most appropriate example of a Christian. We should all be inspired to be like Mary who was 100% obediant to God.
The Catholic Church also officially teached that Marian devotion must never take away from Christ's sole salvivic work on the Cross. There are a few small groups in the Church that have put her on the same level as Christ, and they have been either excommunicated for idolotry or they left to become some sort of cult.
Wilderness,
Nice spin on Mary. We should praise her, we should honor her, we should love her as Jesus did all these things in SCRIPTURE. No one ever honored, venerated and Loved Mary more than Jesus by picking her before the beginning of Time to be His mother. He pre-protected her from original sin through His merits on the Cross so that he could have a unstained and pure ark for the New Covenant-Himself. EVERYTHING that is wonderful about Mary is because of Jesus!
Why is Mary so amazing? She never left His side and never abandoned Him like some of the Apostles did at Calvary. She nursed GOD, she loved God personally and she donated her flesh to be the flesh of the Savior of all man-kind as His Mother as he grew in her womb. Eve said "No", but Mary said "YES" to God. Mary always did what the Lord wanted, Mary always always pointed others to follow and do whatever Jesus said.
Mary is the perfect Christian. She was the first to hear His call, the first to be converted to the TRUTH and the first Christian. In Revelation we clearly see Mary with a crown on her head and the moon below her feet with her body in Heaven. She is the Queen of Heaven for she is of the Davidic line and if Jesus is the King which He is, then the Queen is always the Mother of the King. King David's mother was the Queen and everyone brought their petitions to David's mother and then she would present them to the King. Much how like Catholics pray for Mary's intercession, much like she did for the wedding party at CANA. Doesn't Paul say in Scripture about our crowns waiting for us in Heaven?
Don't throw quotes from people Catholic or not, unless they are official teaching of the Church. Anyone can say anthing, but the official position is the last word. Jesus is the GATE, not Mary.
Typical Protestant Spinster.
Msnchris70: “Getting past Mary will actually be easy if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Let us examine Marian adoration or worship:
A Prayer after a Service. In respect of which Pope Leo X. has granted to all persons who after saying the Divine Office shall devoutly recite it on their knees, condonation of the shortcomings and faults committed by them from human frailty in saying the Office.
To the Most Holy and undivided Trinity, to the Manhood of our Lord Jesus Christ Crucified, to the fruitful Virginity of the most blessed and most glorious Mary, always a Virgin, and to the holiness of all the Saints be ascribed everlasting praise, honour, and glory, by all creatures, and to us be granted the forgiveness of all our sins, world without end. Amen. (The Roman Breviary Vol. I--Winter)
Judge yourself concerning what is in this prayer, but notice that this prayer is directed to the Virginity of Mary, not Mary, but to her Virginity. Friends, let us take heed, lest we are led down a road that leads from biblical authority: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2Ti 3:16, 17).
John 14-6, I would suggest you get a copy of the Catechism and begin reading. Also, your local diocese should be able to point you in the direction of a good RCIA program. The RCIA program is approximately 6-9 months long (depending on the parish) and provides instruction on church teaching, history, etc. Additionally, begin attending the Mass this summer. That will provide a good basis for any questions you may have during the RCIA program. May the Lord's peace be with you on your journey.
Msnchris70: “Getting past Mary will actually be easy if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Let us examine Marian adoration or worship:
“…in the words of Francone the abbot, which we find in the Library of the Fathers, that the praise of Mary is a fountain so full that the more it extends, the fuller it becomes, and the fuller it becomes the more it extends;* which signifies, that the blessed Virgin is so great and sublime, that the more we praise her, the more there is to praise. So that St. Augustine says: All the tongues of men, even if all their members were changed to tongues, would not be sufficient to praise her as she deserves.” (The Glories of Mary, Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Let us reason out of the scriptures, even as it was Paul’s manner (Acts 17:2).
“By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name” (Heb 13:15).
“I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth” (Ps 34:1).
this whole situation is getting scarey...
Msnchris70: “Getting past Mary will actually be easy if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Let us examine Marian adoration or worship:
This the blessed Virgin herself revealed to St. Bridget: “I am,” she said to her, “the queen of heaven and the mother of mercy; I am the joy of the just, and the gate of entrance for sinners to God…” (The Glories of Mary, Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Is Mary the joy of the just? What saith the scriptures? “…For the joy of the Lord is your strength” (Ne 8:10). In addition, what is the kingdom of God? “…Righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Ro 14:17).
Is Mary the gate of entrance for sinners to God? What saith the scriptures? Jesus said, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (Jn 10:9).
John 14-6,
It took me 20 years of being a Pastor to realize that the Catholic Church is the True Church. I was also taught by my parents to be anti-Catholic and try to rescue Catholics to come to the true church of Protestantism. I came a long way.
Getting past Mary will actually be easy if you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It defines Mary's role in salvation by giving her honor by saying, "Yes" to God, but does not in any way equate her role on par or even close to Jesus. She had a cooperative role in the Salvation of Man kind. Just like we have a cooperative role too, when we bring people to Christ.
Here are some great websites. www.catholic.com www.catholicbridge.com www.catholicscomehome.org
Also, it is very easy to find a very orthodox parish. First, avoid all Jesuit run churches. Second, Dominican parrishes are some of the best. General things to look for; adoration of the blessed sacrament regularly during the week, daily Mass, frequent confession offered, dalily Rosary, etc.
Or you can just email me for any help at my name above plus hotmail.
I am so thankful to be in full communion with the only church Christ founded!
Be encouraged. There are good Bible believing and Bible teaching churches to attend. Ask God to lead you to the one that's right for you and your family. That's what we did. It didn't happen fast but it did happen. God has a place for you to grow and serve. Don't give up.
msnchris70--
You know what? I'm not kidding when I say that if it gets much worse in the Protestant denominations, then I and my family will be joining the Catholic Church. Nothing is beginning to convince me, more and more, that maybe the Catholics are right about being the "true" church, than watching what is happening to the mainline Protestant denominations as they begin to become infected by liberalism that is causing the entire denomination to wither on the vine, so to speak.
Once I can make the jump past the "Mary" thing, I think I might be crossing the Tiber. But I am well aware that there are plenty of liberal parishes in the RCC that are also completely out of step with the teachings and edicts of the Church. So then my question will be, where do I find a conservative parish? The problems are never ending...
this is a sad day for the body of Christ. The gospel this unified body proclaims is not of Jesus Christ.
John, I have read both Corinthians what I was trying to get at with the scripture I posted is that the foundation of the church must be on Christ alone. I'm not talking about accepting these denomations I'm talking about the fact the every church needs to come together to preach the word and stop bickering over what they think is a correct interpretation.
Also the letter says that after you have tried several times to talk to the person that has complete lack of repentance several times, including bringing others along, should you excominucate them. It is for their own benefit to get closer to Christ and when they do they should be allowed back in.
It seems that many posters on this site simply equate "Bible-loving" with "those that find male homosexuality icky."
This is great news! Now why would a Catholic think this is good? Well, because these liberals who keep on acknowledging each other with their full communion are also extremely non-biblical and non-traditional when it comes to morality.
This is great because more and more Bible believing and bible loving conservative Lutherans,Methodists, Episcopalians and Anglicans are coming home to the Catholic Church. I am not talking about a few people either, I am talking thousands and soon to be millions. Right now, the Tradtional Anglican Communion(400,000 people) that broke away from the Anglican communiion in 1990's over their immoral stances on homosexuality, womens ordinations and an actively gay bishop, are in discussions with the Holy See to discuss full communion. They would be called an Anglican Rite within the Catholic Church. I will tell you that I feel very strongly that this will happen. They will not be the Traditional Anglican Communion anymore if this is allowed, but they will be Catholics of the Anglican Rite.
God will prune you if you don't follow his Word revealed in both the Bible and Sacred Tradition. These Liberal Churches will find their own demise soon, which is very sad. But it will cause the orthodox Christians in these churches to return home to the Catholic Church.
ShuckCreations--
You might want to read the rest of 1 Corinthians. The entire letter is chastising the church in Corinth for the abominable behavior going on in it by some of its members. He speaks about a man who has taken his stepmother in marriage, with the church giving approval, and he tells the church to put the immoral brother "out of the church" and turn him over to Satan.
kevin82 is *exactly* right, the churches have forgotten excommunication and they need to bring it out, dust it off, and start excommunicating the truly unrepentant and disruptive elements in these churches.
These denominations need to bring excommunication back, and it needs to be used far more often on those elements of the church that are trying to corrupt it. These liberals have gotten a stranglehold on the church of God through the failure of the clergy to police the church body and weed out the unrepentant and bad elements in their flocks through the practice of excommunicating them.
Remember, the purpose of excommunication is not punishment, it is to bring them to repentance!
If this keeps up, I'll just have to join the Catholics and live with the stuff I can't agree with.
Wow, kevin and john, I've never seen so many acronyms thrown around like that. I think my brain hurts now. I'll just leave you all with this scripture...I think all churchs should drop their name and preach the Word of God instead of their individual doctrines.
1 Corinthians 1:10
"I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose."
I agree as well. It looks like the UMC is not too far behind the ELCA which is not too far behind TEC which is pretty close to the UCC. And with the recent High Court ruling of the PCUSA on homosexual unions, it looks like the PCUSA is also with little hope. The only two major Protestant bodies that are still faithful to the Bible and the common tradition of the Church is the SBC and the LCMS.
I think if we reflect on how the mainline came to this, we should look to re-affirm the biblical practice of excommunication. The reason these churches have been increasingly flooded with liberals is because they have been tolerated for decades, and, like a disease that is not treated, it spreads and affects the healthy members of the body.
Agreed.
Wow, so a border-line apostate denomination agrees to recognize and fellowship with an apostate denomination.
There aren't many options left to true conservative, orthodox, Bible believing, Christians. The LCMS, WELS, some Southern Baptists, and the PCA. I think that's about it. And those denominations together only account for probably about 1/3 of the numbers that make up all of Protestantism. Very, very sad.