Chris,
Take care and I'll pray for your safety abroad

Hawk

Hawk,

I have attended several denominations throughout South Carolina, and I have never heard of some movement to "secede" as a Christian community, of course there are always weirdos. I checked out the website, seems the DVD has a lot of great speakers such as Ravi Zacharias. I read some of their books. It seems interesting, I will look into it more. Currently I am not even in America though.

Chris,
"What truth is there that South Carolina has a movement to secede from the union?"

I wasn't talking of the session back in 1860. It's not about racism, it's about new government based on Christian values. My pastor is from Georgia and he says that there is currently a movement by a group of South Carolinians who are talking of seceding shortly.

The Truth Project goes only by this name. You can find it at thetruthproject.org. It is a program from the Focus on the Family's Institute. Dr Del Tackett is the Institute's president and he is the instuctor on the DVD series. It consists of 12 lessons. I highly recomment it as an excellent introduction to Christian worldview development. It's a small group program and Focus is very guarded about who can buy the DVD set. Check with some of the churches in your area about the program if you are interested and have the time.

God Bless and will see you on other threads, I'm sure.

Hawk

Hey Hawk,

"I am a born-again evangelical living in Arizona. I came to Christ a little more than 8 years ago."

Congratulations, and I am happy that you came to have that relationship with Christ.

"I'm 59 this month. My journey started with Behe's Darwin's Black Box in 1996. His logic and reasoning were too powerful to ignore and I realized that only God could have created us. It took a few more years to realize who God was and what He wanted and offered for us. My interest lies in the religious worldview area and I lead/teach The Truth Project."

Good for you, I always that there are two ways that we come to God, both of which are indespensable, one through the brain and logic, the other through the heart.

"Are you familiar with The Truth Project?"

I do not believe so, might it go by a different name? In any case, let me know what it is.

"What truth is there that South Carolina has a movement to secede from the union?"

Not much, I am against what South Carolina did, I am against slavery, and I am adamantly opposed to racism. Yet, I am a realist and I try to understand what the Bible is actually saying.

God Bless, and thanks for the introduction.

Chris333
Hi. Let me introduce myself. I am a born-again evangelical living in Arizona. I came to Christ a little more than 8 years ago. I'm 59 this month. My journey started with Behe's Darwin's Black Box in 1996. His logic and reasoning were too powerful to ignore and I realized that only God could have created us. It took a few more years to realize who God was and what He wanted and offered for us. My interest lies in the religious worldview area and I lead/teach The Truth Project.
Are you familiar with The Truth Project?
What truth is there that South Carolina has a movement to secede from the union?

God Bless

Hawk

ifeelfine,

"Let me ask you, why did most of the slave owners believe in Christianity so strongly and use it in support of their wicked institution?"

Why did Hitler use Christianity, albeit wrongly? Don't judge Christianity based on its abuse.

"And my logic does hold - was slavery a moral issue or just social engineering?"

I didn't say your logic doesn't hold, you said that mine doesn't hold. I did not say that slavery was not a moral issue, nor did I say it was social engineering. I said it was a social ill, a social problem. Christ did not come to solve societies problems, He came to solve our problems by showing us the proper way to live. Having slaves or not is inconsequential. Guess what, the New Testament never once says that governments should not be corrupt, at one point it even says that the government wields force for a reason and that one's authorities must be obeyed (unless of course they go against God's will). What if you have a corrupt government? What if your government is involved in crime? The Bible doesn't address it. That doesn't mean God approves of every government, but He is concerned with how we live our lives.

"You're clearly trying to rationalize something that makes no sense."

You are clearly trying to force Christianity to look bad, so that you can justify your position. My position makes perfect sense, and millions of people can understand that. You don't want to understand it, so that you can have an excuse to throw away parts of the Bible you do not like. Think about it ifeelfine, atheists do not fight against the Bible as hard as you do. Why?

Ifeelfine;
There were slaves during New Testament times. The church issued no edict sweeping away this custom of the old Judaism, but the gospel of Christ with its warm, penetrating love-message mitigated the harshness of ancient times and melted cruelty into kindness. The equality, justice and love of Christ's teachings changed the whole attitude of man to man and master to servant. This spirit of brotherhood quickened the conscience of the age, leaped the walls of Judaism, and penetrated the remotest regions. The great apostle proclaimed these truths: (Gal 3:28) (Eph 6:5-9)...etc.

Christ was a reformer, but not an anarchist. His gospel was dynamic but not dynamitic. It was leaven, electric with power, but permeated with love. Christ's life and teaching were against Judaistic slavery, Roman slavery and any form of human slavery. The love of His gospel and the light of His life were destined, in time, to make human emancipation earth-wide and human brotherhood as universal as His own benign presence.
—International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

Ifeelfine;
You seem to lump Christians under the banner of Christianity as one homogenous lot. This is not the case. The northern Protestants were very different than the southern based Anglicans. The Anglican church was corrupted. The south started mainly as a business enterprise where the north began primarily as a Christian community. The southerners were more syncretized (mixture of secular and Christian ways) in their lifestyles and practices. Alexis de Tocqueville describes these southern and northern lifestyle differences very well when addressing the issue of slavery.

Chris: Let me ask you, why did most of the slave owners believe in Christianity so strongly and use it in support of their wicked institution?

And my logic does hold - was slavery a moral issue or just social engineering?

You're clearly trying to rationalize something that makes no sense.

ifeelfine,

"Slavery was not and is not a "social ill." It is the most morally reprehensible thing someone can do to another besides take their life (although some would argue its worse)."

This is your opinion, biblical slavery was not to be lifelong, "slaves" were to be treated with respect and kindly (especially in the New Testament view), and there were many people in society who were utterly poor and life was pain anyways. For these people, many would not have minded being a servant to a person who was willing to take care of them, and not take advantage of them, as the Bible demands.

"Your logic doesn't hold."

You have not proven that.

"Not only that, the Southerners were and still are very religious - perhaps moreso than the northern states. The Northerners were more progressive than the Southerners at that time but that is a different topic."

I am a southerner, from South Carolina, and many people here say they are Christian and go to Church infrequently, but do not live Christian lives at all, and are nearly indistinguishable from secular society.

Let me ask you, why were most of the anti-slave proponents strong Christians who based their positions on the Bible? They were not thinking, "Oh, we just have to throw the parts of the Bible we don't like away" they were saying, "The Bible clearly upholds the dignity of every single person, and it is not right to enslave a people based on their race and for the duration of their entire life."

Hawk: So you're saying that our interpretation of the Bible has changed? Is that it?

Chris: Slavery was not and is not a "social ill." It is the most morally reprehensible thing someone can do to another besides take their life (although some would argue its worse). Your logic doesn't hold. Not only that, the Southerners were and still are very religious - perhaps moreso than the northern states. The Northerners were more progressive than the Southerners at that time but that is a different topic.

"God's number one mission for us is our spiritual life in Him and love for one another, not social engineering. The social ills will work themselves out when we turn to Him and love one another (compare the God honoring Protestants of the northern states with no slavery and anti-slavery laws and the more secular and business minded in the south)"

This is also a very valid point, God is not concerned with healing social ills first, He is concerned with healing people ills.

ifeelfine,

"The Bible should have passages that say slavery is morally bad if it is indeed one of the worst scourges in human history."

Depends on the circumstances. God is obviously against the abuse of another person, God obviously sees all as equal, and God obviously demands us to deny ourselves and live as Christ lives, "becoming slaves to all". Does God understand that slavery existed and still exists today? Yes. God gives us advice as to what we are to do if we are slaves or if we are in a position of authority. We can follow that or we can reject it.

Ifeelfine;
I am not an expert on this topic, but here are the things that I know.
There are different forms of slavery and you appear to recognize only one; the chattel variety that existed in the Southern states;
God adhorred chattel slavery as evidenced with the Egyptians in Exodus and with Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12

In those days, the household slaves (not the chattel type noted above) were treated very well, almost like family as evidenced in Luke7:2 and with Joseph found in Genesis. There were very specific humane laws that God instilled with a 7 year period for freedom or a chance for a slave to remain a slave as a bond servant on his volition. These slaves were often much better off than the common citizen of the day.
God did command that slaves be treated fairly and as humans unlike the cattle treatment many received in the southern states

God's number one mission for us is our spiritual life in Him and love for one another, not social engineering. The social ills will work themselves out when we turn to Him and love one another (compare the God honoring Protestants of the northern states with no slavery and anti-slavery laws and the more secular and business minded in the south)

Now two questions for you. Did the Marxist regimes and the Nazis treat their slaves as chattle slaves or were they treated with love and respect as members of the household who were free after 7 years if they wanted their freedom? Would a Nazi or Marxist have riden off to Jesus and asked Jesus to heal the sick slave because he, the master, highly valued his slaves?

Hawk - read the passage in Luke I mentioned below.

Chris: By citing a verse that says slavery is moral good makes no sense. The Bible should have passages that say slavery is morally bad if it is indeed one of the worst scourges in human history. I want you to cite one verse that says the computer you are typing on is morally ok to have . . . see how silly that is?

But here are some verses that endorse slavery:

- Colossians 3:22
- Titus 2:9
- Leviticus 25:44
- Luke 7:2
- Exodus 21:32

Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated. Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.Hitler was a Roman Catholic who never renounced his faith, and was never excommunicated.

Hawk,

Excellent points.

ifeelfine,

What I am going to need, is a single verse that says that slavery is morally good. Do it, and your point is won. I can quote a number of verses that say that there is no slave in God's eyes, that if a slave is able to secure freedom that they should, and that no matter what position a person is in, whether slave or master, they should strive to be more like Christ. Christ did not own slaves, and if He had, they would have been happy to have been His slaves (I know I am).

This point is irrelevant to the discussion however, as we are talking about eugenics and genocide. It is a separate issue.

Ifeelfine and Chris,
Not sure if you have a Bible dictionary, I have the Holman, and it addresses the issue of slavery rather clearly. 'One can conclude that Jesus and the apostles set forth principles of human dignity and equality which eventually led to abolition.' Just had to overcome the 'science' that blacks or other races were not equals. It may also be wise to clarify the various forms of slavery.

Chris: I can cite lots of verses in both the OT and NT that seem pretty friendly to slavery.