What was intended to be an academic symposium, or a "balanced" discussion, on religion, homosexuality and therapy has been canceled amid a wave of criticism from gay activists who painted the event as anything but.
Today's Christian News Online - The Christian Post
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
CP HOME
> Society > Homosexuality
Discussion on Religion, Homosexuality, Therapy Canceled Amid Protest
By
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Mon, May. 05 2008 06:15 PM EDT
[-] Text [+]
Prev1Next
Most Commented Articles
La. Governor Signs 'Science Education Act'
Obama Prying Loose Evangelicals from Republicans
Federal Marriage Amendment Re-introduced in Senate
Anglican Head Sees Risks in Conservative Proposals
Why I Thank God for Charles Darwin
PCUSA Assembly Approves Deleting Gay Clergy Ban
Arizona Puts Marriage Amendment on Ballot - Again
Featured Advertiser Links
Comments
irenaeus
Thank you for the explanation of the Church's position on the issues relating to homosexuality.
Bmore,
“You disgust me, and you disgust Jesus! May God have mercy on your hate filled soul.”
Is this how you would have responded to Paul if you were in Rome and he admonished you regarding homosexual behavior – calling it depraved passion, men committing shameless acts with men? May God have mercy on your sin-rationalizing soul.
Why was my post on Fri May 09, 2008 5:28 pm flagged as inappropriate?
star2,
"BmoreTeacher said to star2: 'P.S.: The Catholic Church was the first church made by Christ, and it says homosexuality is not a sin in itself or a choice, so anyone saying otherwise needs to talk to their biblical scholars :)' "
Is this the position of the Catholic Church?"
The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality, if by this term we mean the attraction to the same sex, is in itself not sinful; it is however a disordered disposition or orientation (analogous to alcoholism or kleptomania). Homosexual acts, however, are gravely depraved and sinful. In other words, the tendency or disposition is in itself not necessarily sinful, but acting out on the tendency or disposition is. The Catholic Church has been unequivocal in this. So Bmore needs to be clear when stating what the Church actually teaches, because the Church certainly does not teach that homosexual acts are morally licit, and in fact, has said that they are intrinsically wrong and under no circumstance can they be approved.
irenaeus
This is what BmoreTeacher said to me about the Catholic Church regarding homosexuality:
BmoreTeacher said to star2: "P.S.: The Catholic Church was the first church made by Christ, and it says homosexuality is not a sin in itself or a choice, so anyone saying otherwise needs to talk to their biblical scholars :)"
Is this the position of the Catholic Church?
irenaeus
BmoreTeacher is Catholic and he says that the Catholic Church says it is OK to be homosexual. Is that treu?
Flagged myself for typo.
nonjudgemental,
First, I respect your desire to pray and rise above the fray. But there is a slight problem with your post, if you don't mind me pointing it out. You have explained to us how we shouldn't judge others, while at the same time judging us, calling us judgemental. While the most important thing that we should be focused on is our own sins and difficulties, we absolutely must represent the truth and reveal the sins of others, not by our own righteousness, but by the righteous that is God. Thus if a serial killer comes up to me and says why he thinks his lifestyle is okay, I am not going to respond, "Well Mr. Serial killer, I am not going to judge you, but I will quietly pray for you." Rather I will say straightforwardly that I disagree and what he is doing is wrong, and unless he repents and turns to Christ, as far as I know, it is impossible for him to go to heaven. Call it judging if you want, by I say it is representing the truth in love and showing people the right way to go. Of course, each day I must judge myself and see that I repent of my own sins, and always pray for people going through difficulties and temptations.
Bmore,
You said, "You disgust me, and you disgust Jesus! May God have mercy on your hate filled soul."
I think this qualifies as being judgmental in the wrong way... Also, how on earth do you know that a person disgusts Jesus? I thought Jesus loved all people?
Your facts are wrong! I know many, many gay men who have gone through ex-gay ministries and came out worse for it. You can't see past your fundamentalist beliefs! You are the reason so many gay people want to kill themselves. You disgust me, and you disgust Jesus! May God have mercy on your hate filled soul.
The problem with BMORES statement is it depends how you define success. Homosexuals claim there is absolutely no choice to being gay. Assuming this is true, then a conversion ratre of 20-34% should be impossible. However, those are the statistics..... 1 in 4 to almost 1 in 3 have come out of the lifestyle which the gay agenda claims is impossible. The results are noted below and keep in mind they followed these participants for 4 years....
Change for the homosexual is difficult, but still possible, researchers of a newly released study say.
Related
* Controversial Study: Is Change Possible for Homosexuals?
* Exodus Head Clarifies 'Ex-Gay' Remarks
"The Thomas Project: A Study of Religiously-Mediated Change in Exodus Group Participants" presents evidence that there are people who have successfully changed, or experienced "conversion," from homosexuality to heterosexuality.
The study, conducted by longtime Wheaton College professor of psychology and provost Stanton L. Jones and Regent University professor Mark Yarhouse, followed about 100 people entering ex-gay programs under the umbrella of Exodus International – the nation's largest Christian organization dealing with homosexuality issues – for over four years.
Tpt is harm
it would be awesome if homosexuality was biblical, and it would also be awesome if premarital sex was biblical too, but i dont think God condones either, so being a heterosexual who liked having premaital sex i had to discontinue this sinful nature and desire to do so. its not all that bad. just surrender. im not saying im perfact still, but i gotta try a little you know. I dont know about everyone else but it makes me a little uneasy when i put my savior back on the cross over and over again just so i can satisfy a little urge. we all have sins to repent from, but its up to us to repent from them.
Im sorry, but isnt it unchristian to judge a stranger? We will all have to answer for our lives on earth and what we chose. I would choose to pray silently for the people whose lifestyles are not in my beliefs, not just allowing or being accepting of harmful behaviors, but pray silently for those who you believe are living a sinful life. They may not believe it is wrong or sinful. Do not hate Christians in this time of need and suffering in this country. God knows whats in my heart and what I believe, he will smile on me for loving all Christians, he also forgives his children, who is anyone to say they have never done something wrong they need forgivness for. Do we hate all adulterers, are they all going to burn in hell? Or is that a "forgivable" sin, who are any of us to say??
I will continue to pray for all of you who could, or think it is better to be cruel to someone for their mistakes. This is in Gods very capeable hands, not ours.
Bmore,
"Not at all the case Chris, its just we feel there shouldn't be a discussion for what has already been proven to be ineffective and harmful as a practice. Why should people at the conference waste their time when in fact Christians cannot accept the fact that ex-gay ministries simply do not work. Their data is false or shaky, and they solely rely on the Bible as a means of healing people, yet never actually think about the grave effects it has on a person to be told they cannot be accepted as is."
If it is so shaky, then they should have no problem going to the debate and blowing the "ineffective and harmful" Christians ideas away. Using some lame excuse like, "Oh they don't want to waste time" is absurd and, dare I say, elitist. It really is not so difficult to show up and have a debate. Maybe it takes a few hours to prepare, but if their position is so strong it should be easy. I cannot see a valid excuse for turning down this debate.
to BmoreTeacher:
"Slacker, you're wrong. Ex-gay therapy has astronomically high failure rates (we're talking 3:1,000, based on a study I have seen.) When you are in therapy you are censored from everything, from movies and TV, from certain friends, and if you dare to ask questions, you are doubting God and sinning. Ex-gay ministers rule by fear and have been condemned for their harmful practices by the APA and AMA. Many who have survived ex-gay ministries say they became so depressed and hopeless they began to think God would rather have them dead than alive, gay, but living a good life. How sad that Christians can put that idea in someone's head rather than just "God loves you, just as you are." Let God change who he wants to in what ways he wants to. We have no right to step into his job. "
No I am not wrong because you said it yourself in your post, God has to change them, and God can use people to do that but the homosexuals have to want to change, if you take a Gay person off the street and put them into this therapy, then yes it will fail and that is prolly where you got your study from. I reiterate my previous comment, to change from a openly homosexual lifestyle, you have to accept Christ and look to him for redemption and he will lead you out of your sin. Only then can a Gay person turn, because Homosexuality is a Very powerful sin that holds onto the person from the inside.
sorry dongard, but your self assurance is open to question.
"It might be argued that Paul was only concerned with a particular sexual behaviour, say anal intercourse between males, frequent among male homosexuals of the time.”
And why wouldn’t he? He was a faithful Jew, and homosexual behavior was an abomination in their eyes.
“However, there is no evidence that Paul condemned anal intercourse between men and women or between men, or that he saw physical affection between males as something to be avoided.”
No evidence? The first bit of evidence would be that he was a faithful Jew, and homosexual behavior was an abomination in the eyes of Judaism. If Paul had made such a drastic departure from Judaism and suddenly considered homosexual behavior as morally licit, why does he not explain this?
“It is abundantly clear from the evidence of later Christian usage that the term arsenokoites changed meaning from its original use by Paul.”
As I stated previously, the Septuagint translation of the following two verses is probably source of arsenokites and related terms. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew as follows:
Lev. 18:22 - meta ARSENOS ou koimethese KOITEN gunaikos
Lev. 20:13 - hos an koimethe meta ARSENOS KOITEN gunaikos
The use of the terms arsenos and koiten in both verses presents an obvious parallel to Paul's use of arsenokoitai. This is not rocket science.
“Later Christians, having forgotten the original meaning of arsenokoitai inserted a meaning they wished to see there.”
That simply doesn’t hold water since we have earlier writings such as the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25 that used this term in the 3rd century B.C. while Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5 used this term in about the 2nd century A.D., both having the same meaning. Also, whether the term was rare or not, the meaning is easily determined; it's simply a compound word. And what about when Paul does not use this term, but rather uses the phrase “men (consumed with lust) committing shameless acts with men.” Sort of takes out any ambiguity one claims is there.
“Reading 'arsenokoitai' as homosexuals is an example of eisegesis.”
Rather, reading ‘arsenokoitai’ as not referring to homosexual behavior is an example of eisegesis.
“Homophobes who want to find condemnations of homosexuals in the Bible…”
And I’m an adulterphobe if I find condemnations of adultery in the Bible? Or am I a fornicaphobe if I find condemnations of fornication in the Bible? The use of homophobe is merely a diversionary tactic by those who want to promote homosexual behavior as morally licit.
This is sad!!
Reparative Therapy does work and there are thousands of examples. Most recently the President and CEO of the largest men's gay magazine went straight. He lost his company, he lost his friends but he has gained his salvation through Christ. It is possible. He was inspired by Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II(Theology of the Body encylical) and Mother Angelica. These people inspired him, but reading the Scriptures sealed him for Christ.
This gentleman now hopes to have a family. WOW!!! He fought his same sex disorded attraction by reading Scripture, going to Church and allowing the Holy Spirit to rip the lust out of his soul. He is now a born again Christian.
www.couragerc.org has helped thousands to become heterosexual.
To all christians:
Please watch "For the bible tells me so" documentary it's available on google or youtube video
It's about the christianity and homosexuality struggle
BmoreTeacher
(I flagged myself below)
Homosexuals have been and will continue to be set free from homosexuality through Jesus Christ.
There was a lesbian that came to my Church who actually looked like a man. She had a man's haircut and dressed like one. She got saved that Sunday morning she came about a year so so ago. With tears pouring down her eyes she asked Jesus to save her and to come live in her heart. She decided to go straight and through God's grace she is able to. Today you would not even recognize the woman. She looks like a woman and you can see God doing a work in her life.
There are other homosexuals who receive Jesus as their Savior and Lord and have been set free from homosexuality. You don't seem to want to hear that. You seem to only want to hear about homos that didn't get the freedom they sought. Why? So you can justify staying the way you are? Why not read about those who have been delivered from homosexuality. Gird yourself up like a man and read their testimonies. These testimonies can be found at http://exodus.to/stories.
Freedom can be obtained thru Jesus Christ but you have to want it or have a willingness for Him to set you free.
Whether you want to accept it or not God's Word says that gay sex is an abomination and all who practice it will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yes, I have and do study the Word of God. I answered your questions about that and the other laws in the OT on another article. I'll repost it here in case you didn't read it. I don't want to hear about the word 'homosexual' not existing back in the OT days or during the days of Paul in the NT. Those who use such arguments do so in attempts to justify their sin. Justify it all you want but on judgment day you will lose.
BmoreTeacher
Part 1
I know that in my previous posts to you I have been a little harsh. Please forgive me.
You said: "Have you ever really studied the Bible, "
Yes, I have and still do study the Word of God. I have been doing so since 1981. I rely on God to teach me the Word of God (John 14: 26) and to lead me into all truth (John 16:13) as His Word promises He would do.
You said : "If the word of God is so plain, why don't you also condemn people who wear clothing made of more than one material, sow crops in more than one field,..., If you're on your period, you are unclean and shouldn't be in the house of God. "
I have attended back in the late 80's Bill Gothard's Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts where these very issues were discussed. The scientific and medical reasons why God established those laws were discussed along with others like no sex while a woman is having her period, circumcizing baby boys at 8 days, the dietary laws, and etc..
You said: "...why don't you still keep your slaves?"
This is not an issue that I am able to respond to authoritatively since I have not done any study on the issue. I don't know much about the OT laws regarding owning of slaves but in the NT the Word of God does say that if a Christian own slaves they are required by God to treat them in a God fearing way (Eph 6:9). In applicaption to our society today, if I, star2, a Christian, was a wealthy woman who made a contract with some poor people to live on my property and work my land or work at my business in exchane for a small wage, food, clothes, housing, and medical attention, then God would require of me to treat them fairly, with respect, and to keep my promises. If I didn't then I could expect to be corrected by God through some form of chastizment.
You said: "How is it that those words of God are no longer applicable"
I never said that those laws were never applicable. They are still applicable today.
I actually love the law. I love reading the OT laws and even have ask God not too long ago to help me understand why He gave those laws. However, knowing those laws and keeping them will not save me but I will be blessed if I observe them.
BmoreTeacher
Part 2
You said: " yet you continue to pretend you love gays but actual hate us and call us sinners because you choose to hold on to that one part of the Bible? It makes no sense to me at all!"
God was the authority of the Jewish Nation in the OT. He established what the laws were that would govern His people. He decided what sin was and what the societal consequences would be for committing those sins. When the Jewish Nation went into captivity and were under the authority of a pagan nation then the societial consequences to breaking God's laws were no longer carried out.
In the NT, we see Jesus upholding what God called sin in the OT but not carrying out the societal consequences that God established for a nation He ruled. In place of the societal consequences to sin Jesus gave forgiveness and commanded the sinner to go and sin no more.
Jesus still offers forgivenss for sin in place of His judgment against sin but He requires that the sinner go and sin no more. If the sinner refuses, then he will suffer the eternal consequences to sin which is eternal damnation (ie, hell).
In the OT, God says that gay sex is an abomination (a sin) and all who are caught doing it were to be stoned to death (societal consequence). In the NT, God still says that gay sex is a sin but He offers forgiveness for that sin instead of being stoned to death. But the sinner (homosexual) must repent and sin no more or he/she will suffer the eternal consequences to their sin which is eternal damnation.
BmoreTeacher
Part 3
Which of the two scenarios would you call real love:
1) You are a homosexual. The Church says it is OK for you to be gay and that God is OK with it. That makes you feel real good and you feel accepted. You continue to live your life as a homosexual but when you died, you ended up in hell because you didn't repent.
2) You are a homosexual. The Church told you in a loving way as best as they could that God says that homosexuality is a sin and that you need to repent or you will go to Hell. They also tell you that God will forgive you of your sin if you ask Him to, and He will deliver you of that sin if you will let Him and bring healing to your heart in the areas you were wounded in. At first you feel rejected and unacceptable to people. But after awhile you hear what they are trying to tell you God's Word says and you act on it. You give your problem to God and allow Him to set you free and when you die you went to heaven.
Who showed you real love?: The Christians who tell you that God is OK with homosexuality, who make you feel good and accepted in your hoosexulaity on the earth but you end up going to hell because you didn't repent or the Christians who tell you the truth that results you in repenting and going to heaven when you die?
Christians who post on CP who are not homsexuals are usually the ones that hold up the standard of God's Word on homosexuality. They usually can't appreciate the problems that a homosexual has. They are somewhat lacking in sensitivity to the problems you all have. But notheless God's Word says that homosexuality is a sin and all who practice it will not inherit the kingdom of God.
There are Christians who were homosexuals but have been delivered from that bondage. I would like to encourage you to go to http://exodus.to/stories and read about men and women who found healing and deliverance from homosexuality through the Lord Jesus Christ.
“And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man” (Genesis 2:22).
Adam was a son of God (Luke 3:38) and God gave his son a woman (wife), not a husband or a male partner. God is not behind giving men to men, or women to women.
“Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
What if, all of a sudden, heterosexual activity was deemed sinful. All heterosexuals were expected to either undergo "ex-hetero therapy" or remain celebate.
Trust me, if that were the case, heterosexual fornication would become a sacrament.
Not at all the case Chris, its just we feel there shouldn't be a discussion for what has already been proven to be ineffective and harmful as a practice. Why should people at the conference waste their time when in fact Christians cannot accept the fact that ex-gay ministries simply do not work. Their data is false or shaky, and they solely rely on the Bible as a means of healing people, yet never actually think about the grave effects it has on a person to be told they cannot be accepted as is.
So, those on the "pro-homosexual" side backed out, when given a perfectly balanced and open attempt to defend their views... No more complaining that they aren't represented.
Slacker, you're wrong. Ex-gay therapy has astronomically high failure rates (we're talking 3:1,000, based on a study I have seen.) When you are in therapy you are censored from everything, from movies and TV, from certain friends, and if you dare to ask questions, you are doubting God and sinning. Ex-gay ministers rule by fear and have been condemned for their harmful practices by the APA and AMA. Many who have survived ex-gay ministries say they became so depressed and hopeless they began to think God would rather have them dead than alive, gay, but living a good life. How sad that Christians can put that idea in someone's head rather than just "God loves you, just as you are." Let God change who he wants to in what ways he wants to. We have no right to step into his job.
Homosexual therapy can work, however the homosexual has to accept Christ to turn from that powerful a sin. If that person doesn't turn to christ for help then the therapy will fail. We can't expect someone living in sin to turn from it without the help of Jesus.
Having the desire to practice homsexuality is as biological as having the desire to practice adultery or fornication. These are built-in instincts by God's design.
These instincts are also meant to be controlled. But as sin increases, the desire to control these instincts decreases. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Just as with any sinful area of life, it is by design that these desires can only be controlled through a relationship with God.
sorry irenaeus
but your self assurance is open to question.
"There is significant doubt that Paul would have entertained any such concept as homosexual. No other ancient language had such a term, and the earliest Greek writers used a wide variety of periphrastic constructions to render a similar conception. It might be argued that Paul was only concerned with a particular sexual behaviour, say anal intercourse between males, frequent among male homosexuals of the time. However, there is no evidence that Paul condemned anal intercourse between men and women or between men, or that he saw physical affection between males as something to be avoided.
It is abundantly clear from the evidence of later Christian usage that the term arsenokoites changed meaning from its original use by Paul. It eventually came to refer to anything from child molesting to anal intercourse with one's wife. This semantic drift probably occurred because Paul's warnings were so successful that the phenomenon he addressed actually disappeared from prominence in Christian controlled areas of late antiquity/early medieval times. After the fall of paganism, temple prostitutes would have become a thing of the past, and male prostitutes, always probably fewer in number than female prostitutes, probably dwindled to extreme rarity. Later Christians, having forgotten the original meaning of arsenokoitai inserted a meaning they wished to see there.
Reading 'arsenokoitai' as homosexuals is an example of eisegesis. Homophobes who want to find condemnations of homosexuals in the Bible are capable of reading their prejudice into any given passage, just as their predecessors were capable of finding abundant encouragement for antisemitism and racism in the Bible. Do we now read the "mark of Cain" as black skin, as many American preachers in the past did? Do we now read "May his blood be upon us and our children forever" in the Gospel of John as our marching orders to massacre Jews, as medieval European Christians did? The responsibility for orthodox exegesis is not merely scholarly, it is ethical. Everyone who cares about this issue should devote as much effort to prayer and reflection as they do page turning"
Sorry BmoreTeacher, but you have been sold a lie. Homosexual behavior is clearly condemned in the scriptures. The term "arsenokoitai" which has been translated as "homosexual" is very accurate. The Septuagint translation of the following two verses is the probably source of arsenokites and related terms. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew as follows:
Lev. 18:22 - meta ARSENOS ou koimethese KOITEN gunaikos
Lev. 20:13 - hos an koimethe meta ARSENOS KOITEN gunaikos
The use of the terms arsenos and koiten in both verses, especially their juxtaposition in 20:13, presents an obvious parallel to Paul's use of arsenokoitai. Since it is clear that the Hellenistic Jews condemned the homosexuality they encountered in the Greek world, the reasonable conclusion is that arsenokoitai came into use in the intertestamental period, under the influence of the Septuagint of Leviticus, to designate that homoerotic activity the Jews condemned. The plausible conclusion is that the verses in Leviticus not only encouraged the formation of the term but also informed its meaning.
So, the meaning of the term is not vague or ambiguous at all. In fact, according to one commentary I found, the word ARSENOKOITAI is found in some classical Greek literature many years before and after the New Testament made use of the word. It appeared in the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25; Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5; and Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum viii, 4, p. 196, 6; 8; and the Sibylene Oracles 2, 73 and Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3. The pedigree is established, and thus, any claims to “homosexuality” surfacing as merely a “nineteenth century” classification is simply fallacious.
Christians claim that gays are a very small percentage of the population. so i'm just guessing that the number of gays who suffer from unwanted homosexuality has to be a fraction of that small percentage.
on the other hand there are a reported 1 billion christians. surely there must be a much larger number of them who suffer from unwanted christianity and are unable to free themselves because of the pressures of family, friends and society.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them…” (Gen. 1:27, 28).
It was a work of God bringing male and female together.
“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made” (Gen. 2:2).
And that is where God ended it, putting the proper relationship issue to rest a long time ago. MTM or WTW is not a work of God, but the work of sin, an abomination, unseemly, and unclean.
“Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3:2).
Someone didn't like my ideas so they flagged me as inappropriate? That is absurd, and a huge problem if I am trying to have a dialogue. No, gay people do not choose to be gay, and it certainly has nothing to do with self-centeredness. I am gay, and I wouldn't be described as self-centered by anyone. Stop pretending you understand gay people better than they understand themselves. Stop praying that YOUR wills be done, and let God's will be done. Truth of the matter is the Bible has been reinterpretted over and over again, and now we have multiple versions of the same stories being told drastically different. In the original Torah, there was no such word as homosexual, it has since been added as an interpretation of what was trying to be said. How incredibly arrogant of you to think you know me better than I know myself, or any gay person, for that matter. Only God knows me to my core, and I know he loves me. You can pray and say what you want, but its true, and I know he made me gay!
Stories of men and women who were set free from the homosexual lifestyle thru Jesus Christ:
http://exodus.to/stories
It's interesting that movies like Brokeback Mountain will try and convince us that someone can leave a heterosexual lifestyle and become homosexual. Doesn't it follow, then, that choice is a two-way street? If we have to accept one, we have to accept the other.
Of course it was cancelled. Those in that sin will claim anything that does not completely affirm their sin will be accused as not being balanced. For about six years I worked with a local Exodus ministry and saw people walk free. Those that believe that they cannot change will do anything to stop people that have walked free from being heard. Some of them are the most intolerant people claiming tolerance I have ever seen. It is really sad that people set free from this can not freely testify of their freedom because of being threatened.
Whether you want to call it 'reparative therapy' or something else, people do walk free from homosexuality and lesbianism. One day they will be able to tell their stories without fear of retribution. There were be a point where the yelling will not stop those that walk free. God will see to it.