msnchris70

Do you ever allow the Word of God speak to your heart?

msnchris70

For the record, I am female.

Star2,

Amen brother! God is more interested in how the heart of man loves Him and adores Him and there is nothing more loving than celebrating the Eucharist. The Ancient liturgy, since it is God Breathed, is our most loving form of worship because it is how God wanted to be worshipped.

I will also agree with you that there are people in every style of Christian Church who have their own rituals and traditions and they look more like Robots going through the paces, rather than embracing the God of the Universe. If the Heart doesn't belong to Christ. If the Heart isn't totally sold out to Jesus Christ, then no style of ritual will matter.

My point: Give God the love He deserves the way He requested it and do it with a Heart of Love and adoration. Yes, there are Catholics who are so set in the Ritual they have lost the point of the relationship with Christ and Yes there are many Protestants too who are either too wrapped up in the Praise and Worship as a form of entertainment, or the Protestant who edifies the Pastor because he is so motivational, etc.

The Heart does matter and I thank you for bringing it up Star2. We all fall short, and need a Savior.

msnchris70

Re: worship service

God is interested in the heart not ritual.

Now there are certain men who have acquired great celebrity as "Church Fathers."
This term, strangely enough, is never applied to the apostles, to whom it would seem to be more applicable than to any other men, but to certain men who lived in the first few centuries of the Christian era, and who exerted a great influence on the church. As a matter of fact, the true church has but one Father, even God; therefore whatever church recognizes any men as its Fathers, must be a church of merely human planting, having only human ordinances. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)

Take heed saints, lest you give ear to, “Yea, hath God said?” and you be led away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

The writings of Irenaeus are quite extensive, and are very greatly lauded; yet it has been well said that "their preciousness bears no proportion to their bulk." A writer in the British and Foreign Evangelical Review (January, 1869), says: "It would be possible to compress into a very few pages all the statements of fact that can be deemed really valuable to us at the present day."

In spite of all the praise that is lavished upon the Fathers, the same thing may be said of all of them. Indeed, we may go further, and say that although their writings contain, as a matter of necessity, some statements of fact, and some principles of truth, if not one of the so-called Christian Fathers had ever written a line, the amount of useful knowledge in the world would not be one iota less than it now is, and the Christian church would be far better off. (Fathers Of The Catholic Church: A Brief Examination Of The “Falling Away” of the Church in the first three centuries. by E. J. Waggoner)

Stay true to God saints, and be not led away from “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

Many non-Catholic Christian Churches and Congregations have helped start non-Christian groups like Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christ Scientist, etc. From the well spring of Hope and Truth who is Jesus Christ, the fullness and richness of all His teachings remain in the Catholic Church. I could not help, but come to my senses after 20 years and finally become Catholic. I went from anti-Catholic to Catholic. I read Scripture, I studied Scripture and continued my formal education in search of the Fullness of Truth which is Christ. The more I read about the early Christians and compared that with Scripture for proofing I found out that I had been mislead.

I thank God my parents were Jesus loving Bible reading Christians. I began my faith in the Baptists Tradition, refined my faith in the Calvinist Tradition and completed my journed to come home to the Catholic Church. It gives me such joy to celebrate Sunday as the earliest Christians did. I am humbled to eat the flesh and drink the blood of our Lord and Savior, so I can have His life in me so I can radiate the love and joy of Christ. The Sacraments do infuse Grace, but it is up to you to cooperate with it. I am so happy that when I read Scripture that I can compare my interpretation to the earliest of Christians and make sure I am on the same page.

May you always follow your conscience. May your conscience be always well informed. May your information always stand the test by using Scripture to proof it. May you always search out how the earliest Christians interpretated the same Scripture verse because their witness is closests to the fountain of life which is Christ Jesus. May you love thy God with all your heart and love thy neighbor as yourself. May Love Christ by keeping the 10 commandments. May you always live the Beatitudes and put your Trust in the Saving Grace of Christ.

Then it hit me. Which Church has historically come from the Apostles? Which Church has the most Biblical form of Hiearchy? Which Church decided what books went into the New Testament? Which Church defined the Incarnation, the Trinity and all other Christological Theology? Which Church fought against heresy from the very beginning? Which Church today still follows the ancient liturgy? Which Church has safeguarded the Scriptures? Which Church has spread the Christian faith to every corner of the Earth? Which Church has the final authority as revealed in Scripture through the Keys given by Christ?

All these questions can be answered with three words: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The fact is relativism is not only secular it is Christian. Secularists become relativists when it comes to morality. Liberal Christians become relativists when it comes to morality and theology. Conservative Christians become relativists when they have to create their own worship style from scratch and do not hold to the earliest beliefs of the founding Christians.

The farther you are from the fullness of Truth, which is the Church founded by Christ the more watered down your Tradition will be. On one spectrum you have the Catholic Church and on the other you have non-denominational Christian Churches. All people who ever broke off fromt the Catholic Church are still Christian.

The summit of worship for the early Christians was the "Eucharist". All the Scripture they read and prayers they said during the service prepared them to recieve the Eucharist in a worthy manner. The early Chrisitan service was not a Bible study, it was communion. Being in Communion with one another was the most important part. They shared the same faith, because of the same Lord. They always shared the Eucharist on Sunday, but they also did it during the week too. I couldn't become Anglican, because that was just a Protestant version of Catholicism and was only a shadow of the real thing. I looked at the Orthodox too. While they definitely have Apostolic origins without question and a liturgy that comes from the Apostles, they are very ethnically divided. The Russians, Ukranians, Coptics, Greeks had the same faith but they could never come together as one church because they saw their National origins as paramount to their unity in Christ. I remembered from Scripture that we are neither Jew or Gentile right? A Christian is just a Christian. The Orthodox Church really began in the 9th Century and more formally in the 11th as a Eastern Chrisitan Church not under the authority of the Pope.

Did Christ want His Church to be ethnically divided? No. Did Christ want His flock to have one Shepherd? Yes. Christ also wanted His Church to be Universal. I realized that Christ founded a Church, and this Church would be protected by the Holy Spirit to never fall into error. Well, in the first 1000 years only areas that had Bishops from the Easter Christians created heresies, and who was the final judge....The Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome was the final court of apeals. He had veto power and had the power to bind and lose and had the Power because of the Gift of the Keys given to Peter's office as Bishop by Jesus.

Cont'd.

I read the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Irenaus, Clement and then Origen. I read the Didache and many other writings of the first 500 years of Christianity. You see, Star2, I was taught as a Baptist child that the Catholic Pope was the anti-Christ and Catholics were very dangerous because they were a "NEAR-Christianity" type group that could mislead people very easilly. I even remember going door to door on a Saturday outreach program and targetting Catholic households for conversion. I was raised a anti-Catholic, which was only given more fuel when I attended Seminary.

I couldn't help reading the early Christian writings concerning their; worship style, hiearchy and prayer life without thinking it sounded pretty Catholic. Being anti-Catholic, I assumed it wasn't Catholic but maybe Anglican or Orthodox. Well, their denominations didn't exist yet so I just ignored it.

I flirted with leaving the Reformed Tradition and becoming Anglican. I saw the rich Liturgical Tradition in Anglicanism that found its roots in the Earliest style of worship in the 1st and 2nd century. The majority of the service was Scripture. In fact, 90% of the service was Scripture with a 15 minute message on the readings. I could worship like the early church and yet still be Protestant, which was great. I certainly didn't want to be under the "PAPAL DICTATOR".

Cont'd

Star2,

None of the above. I was raised Baptist, then after Seminary I became a Calvinist of the Reformed Tradition because I found that Baptists had a non-Scriptural and a non-historical position on Baptism for infants and its effects. I am happily married.. I resigned as a Pastor and got a teaching job at a University. I am preparing to become a Deacon in the Catholic Church.

Why did I resign? About 10 years in to my ministry work I began my Doctorate work in Theology through an Evangelical University on the west coast. I already had my Masters from Seminary, so I thought it would be good to continue my learning. My specific area of interest was the "Early Christians". I really wanted to know what they believed and how they worshipped God, etc. Although this was an Evangelical school I attended, one of the books I had to read was by an Orthodox Priest. I started reading the "Early Church Fathers" who were personally discipled by the Apostles.

Cont'd.

msnchris70

You said that you were a Protestant Pastor for 20 yrs. Since you have been a part of a SBC Baptist Church then I assume you were a Baptist Pastor.

Were you married during your Protestant Pastorship? If yes, then are you still married? If not, then are you a widower or a divorcee?

If you are a divorcee then, did your congregation require you to resign according to the by-laws of the Baptist Church that says that divorcees can not be Pastors of a Church? I believe that is a part of the Baptist Faith and Message.

Are you now a Priest? If yes, why did you become one? Is it because you thought that the Catholic clergy had a closer relationship with God and you desired that in your own life? Or was it because you still wanted to be in the ministry but could not be in the Baptist Church but the RCC would accpet you if you took a vow of celibacy?

“We have 265 Successors to the Seat of Peter…The majority of all our Popes have been Godly men …” --msnchris70

You do err in not understanding the magnitude of the situation:

-265 men in a position that was not established by God make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that promotes gross scriptural error, even unto blasphemy, make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that paints biblical Mary over pagan goddess worship make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.
-265 men in a position that has deceived millions and wrought devastation make them deceived, a deceiver, or both.

May God raise up an army of messengers of fire, whose tongues are as the pen of a ready writer, who will boldly rise up against this position with the sword of the Spirit, crushing the error therein, to rescue all that can be saved therein.

msnchris70

(I flagged myself)

Re:Why is it that all the most educated Protestants are becoming Catholic or at least Orthodox in droves. Why is it the best and brightest and the people who are the MOST CONSERVATIVE in Morals are coming in droves to the Catholic Church?


The reason is they have lost their ability to discern truth from error. They look to man for understanding of scripture instead of looking to God.

OH yeah, and if you say something like you don't have a reliable list of Popes, which we do then I know you love the DaVinci Code and you get your Theology from the DISCOVERY CHANNEL.

Wilderness,

-The Old Testament is a precursor to the New Testament right????
-The Old Covenant and Old Testament predicts through the Scriptures and prophets of things to come in the New Testament and the New Covenant, right???
So far you said "yes' to both of these questions.... Right???

Jesus did found the Church on KEPHA(Rock). No one has ever been named Rock before, so it is important right??? If Jesus changes your name it is important right??? Just like the Old Testament where God changed Abram to Abraham it was a big deal right????

Look at Isaiah 22. Do a little homework and you will see what MOST major Protestant scholar will now admit today. Isaiah 22 discusses how Eliakim will receive the KEYS of the KINGDOM in the Davidic Kingdom. Eliakim will become the PRIME MINISTER for the House of the KING having full authority to close and open on the King's behalf...sounding familiar yet?. This office of PRIME MINISTER for ELIAKIM will be DYNASTIC which means after Eliakim dies it goes to another to take his office. Funny how this sounds like Jesus is taking from the Old Testament and speaking in the New Testament about Peter getting the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN. So, Jesus who is the KING OF KINGS makes Peter the Prime Minister of HIS FLOCK and Peter has the right to ......Bind and Loose..open and close.

Isaiah 22 is the prefigurement of Matt 16:18. I hope you can get beyond your bias to see it, like many credible Protestant Scholars have recently done. We have 265 Successors to the Seat of Peter who is now Pope Benedict XVI. The Church of Jesus Christ was not built on the Strongest of man, but of one of the weakest. It takes the Power of the HolyTrinity to create protection around this single weak person, so that their faith does not fail and they would never bind or loose doctrine that wasn't the fullness of Truth.

The majority of all our Popes have been Godly men and about 20 were average guys and 11 were horible men and devious in everyway possible, and yet none of these 11 bad Popes ever created a doctrine. We have a Church made of Saints and Sinners and 2000 years of history as one single church with the same structure has not failed in 2000 years because of the POWER OF GOD and not of our own power because we are all sinners and all in need of our Savior.

Star2,

You are a relativists and at least you finally admit it. I doesn't matter that Catholic doctrine matches up with the beliefs of the earliest Christians that were known for orthodoxy. In the first 300 years of Christianity do you know how the Real Church of Christ sepparated it from HERETICS who thought Jesus wasn't God, that the Holy Spirit wasn't God they had to show a connection to the Apostles through Apostolic Succession because otherwise it was just one group of Christians using Scripture to support their view over others. Those who could show Apostolic Succession were Called the Catholic Church which meant universal but it also meant "According to the Whole" meaning According to the Whole of the Apostles. ALL CATHOLIC TEACHING is Apostolic.

You, and whatever Church or sect you belong to is Not Apostolic and you don't follow genuine Christianity. You version of Christianity will not last as it predicts in the Bible about FALSE PROPHETS. My Catholic CHurch was Present when Jesus promised to be with His Church always. We are still here.......!

Why is it that all the most educated Protestants are becoming Catholic or at least Orthodox in droves. Why is it the best and brightest and the people who are the MOST CONSERVATIVE in Morals are coming in droves to the Catholic Church? Wherever the Truth resides in its fullness, THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

If the church was to be built upon Peter (which it is not), then what part of Peter was it to be built upon?

Peter’s flesh? Would Christ build his church upon that which passes away, withers like the grass, or can be corrupted in its way? (Ps 78:39; 1Pe 1:24, 25; Gen 6:12)

Peter’s heart? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be overwhelmed, regard iniquity, be hardened, deceitful, wicked, smitten and wither like grass? (Ps 61:2; Ps 66:18; Ps 95:8; Ps102:4)

Peter’s spirit? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be overwhelmed, fail, or be broken? (Ps 143:4, 7; Pr 17:22)

Peter’s faith? Would Christ build his church upon that which can be weak, departed from, be little, or even be dead? (Ro 14:1; 1Ti 4:1; Mt 8:26; James 2:20)

Peter’s mouth and tongue? Would Christ build his church upon that which can curse, be filthy, be given over to evil and deceit? (Jas 3:9, 10; Col 3:8; Ps 50:19)

The church built upon Peter? No, and let a man be more willing to die a thousand deaths then to accept such falsity. The rock or foundation of the church will always be that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. “For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?” (Ps 18:31)

msnchris70

If you love Jesus so much then why don't you obey Him?

msnchris70

I don't need any teachings from the Early Church Fathers of the RCC who the Church claims got their teaching from the Apostles.

The Word of God is all I need for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

I do not rely on any human being to teach me what the Word of God says. I rely on God. Everything I write on CP is my own. I do not get any of it from any Protestant teacher/pastor.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, bring to our remembrance everything He said (John 14:26), and guide us into all truth (John 16:13). I take Jesus at His Word and I depend on God to give me understanding of His Word through the Holy Ghost that dwells in me. You would be wise to do likewise.


John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 16:13 - " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

(I flagged myself)