The inability of the church to discuss a topic that has become taboo among many Christians is one of the root causes why millions of Americans are leaving the church and never to return, says one author.
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'Lost' Christians Greatest Crisis in American Church, says Author
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, May. 09 2008 11:00 AM EDT
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Kudos to Katherine for a great article! To hear more about this issue from David Sanford, author of If God Disappears (Tyndale House Publishers, September 2008), please log onto www.IfGodDisappears.blogspot.com . . .
I AM A WORSHIP PASTOR WHO IS PASSIONATELY INTERESTED IN SEARCHING BOTH THE HEART OF GOD AS WELL AS THE HEARTS OF MY FELLOW BELIEVERS ON ISSUES AND CONCERNS SURROUNDING WORSHIP. I AM LOOKING FOR OPEN DIALOGUE ON THE SUBJECT OF WORSHIP AND PARTICULARLY REGARDING THE FUTURE OF THE CHURCH.
REGARDLESS OF WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOUR AGE/GENERATION OR CULTURE, ETHNICITY, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO E-MAIL ME WITH COMMENTS, CONCERNS, IDEAS, THOUGHTS, ETC.
contact me at tierraroja@aol.com
Throughout history the church has grown more quickly in small groups (i.e. home churches etc) - witness what is going on today in China and Vietnam. We (in the USA) are going back to that, and for the better. God bless you, Tim
Read the book of Job and then you will have a better grasp. Just because you are a good church goer or involved in 100 mionistries and obey all of God's commands the best way possible doesnt automatcally shield you from hard times, and the likewise, jsut becasue you are a staunch pagan doesnt mean you autmatically will have hard times either. What it boils down to is trusting in God in any situation, we all know you cant earn you way into heaven because we could never do enough good things. Stop correlating having an easier life with being Chrsitian because it isnt easier, look at all the muslims that are converting to christianity, they are dying for the faith not getting a bigger paycheck or "better" life. We will be persecuted by the pagan world if we truley follow Jesus, plain and simple. Trust in God in the good and the BAD times and he will pull you through them. Abandoning your faith on account of Bad times is the equivalent of "When the going gets tough, the tough become weak and spineless and quit becuase it isnt easy anymore so were they ever tough to begin with?" or something close to that. The worst thing that can be said about a Christian is that they cant tell the difference btwn them and the secular world. If you are a Christian and you fit in, you may need to question if you are taking your faith seriously or if you are just pretending. Take joy in your suffering and praise God!
Howard Dean left the church because they reffused a bike path over church property, but get real, he is a left wing politician, so why should we care who stays or leaves? I would rather be in a company of believers than scoffers.
Now there's a balance to look at! The Bible says a man is worth his wage but it doesn't talk about 2 or 3 persons wages!
On the one hand, I know of a business fellow who gives 90% of his personal income to mission type work. He's still quite rich as God has blessed his hearts commitment. Still, Jesus had no home of His own. Paul accepted gifts from some and rejected from others depending on the hearts of the people. By world standards our homeless people here in the USA live better than most people in 3rd world countries.
If I have what I need I will be content. I have had little and plenty. God is still faithful. Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. I feel pity for those who have the big house but their hearts are run down, cold and empty.
As for some of these "send me money" people...they have their reward.
It would be great if we could if we could limit the posts directing people to external links.
I was struck by the author's phrase she felt God was pounding on her. This is the point where a person will make a real decision for Christ. The issues will vary, but we will all hit that wall at some point in our lives. Unfortunately, many Christians spend their entire Christian lives trying to avoid this and even see it is the church's duty to help protect them from ever having to face any crisis. We are not unlike the Israelites who complained and longed to return to slavery in Egypt and fought being taken in to the wilderness to be tested and to learn how to trust. I have a feeling this is why many men fail to connect with the church. They long to be set free and rightly sense the church will not help them in crossing the Jordan.
I believe outside of the "holier than thou" Christians turning people off to Christianity, we are living in an age of where nobody wants to get their feelings hurt with straight biblical teachings. Everything is about feeling good.
"Most of the time, Christians leave because of a "wounded" experience. They either deliberately walk away due to questions and doubts that go unanswered or they feel that God has walked away or "disappeared," observed Sanford"
I'm honestly not sure that I would place the focus on "wounded experiences". I would be more inclined to believe that the church simply lacks the experiencing of God.
The Holy Spirit tends to work "outside the box", outside of the routine.
I believe they call it not being Religious.
to daniel paul
'the immature who desire big house, nice cars & condos'... what about pastors, who are the messengers of god, point to sin, then blames those who are suffering on sin. where do believers get these 'immature & childish' teachings? pastors & televangelist. also, pastors, televangelist' average salary is $7800/ month with health benefits, nice cars & nice houses.
'Most of the time christians leave because of a wounded experience. they walk out bec of questions go unanswered... '
yes that is true. and what is worst, instead of the 'questions being answered' self righteous, arrogant christians ( especially pastors) give a 'snake when asking for a fish', they also add weight on people's shoulders, blame everything for the cause of suffering on sin & the same believers who cast the first stone will be first people who break the rules.
The other Sunday our Pastor did and alter call. We don't do the alter call every Sunday thing that is so 'normal' here in the south. He got several emails that week asking him to do another one. These emails came from people who hesitated and missed the chance to go down. The next sermon was about how you don't need to have an alter call in a church to become a Christian. The megachurch attracts what are called 'seekers' who are those wanting to learn more about Christianity.
And, gig, you're right about the membership mentality. Churches here boast their membership numbers which include those in the graveyard! To be a member of our church you have to go through a 2 hour class on what being a member of a church is (starting with being saved). Also, members have to serve somewhere in the church and be part of a small group or ministry. In short, members do the work of the ministry. Our membership is about half of our weekly attendance and it has to be renewed each year as a committment to the church. Our small groups are where the connection takes place.
Even still, we have the immature who have desires for the big house, nice car and condo. When you get right down to it, the smaller churches here are not really all that different. They're just more 'spiritual' about their immaturity. The megachurch is just a more concentrated version of what I have seen in the smaller churches for decades.
A link to this article has been posted on the website GoodNewsNow.com
To Curiousbonefish: I'm sorry I couldn't respond to your note sooner. Just a little info for you...like the Apostle Paul, I too long to join the Lord Jesus in the "fellowship of suffering." Do you know what that means? Paul (and all other true believers) had a lifestyle of sharing the Gospel. The suffering he referred to was the extreme persecution because He preached Jesus and Him crucified. Paul understood that when the truth is shared with the object of converting people to faith in Jesus, most will react somewhat violently...even with physical violence against one who is attempting to change their lifestyles. ANY other suffering other than as a direct result of persecution for the faith is not God-generated. We are saved for one reason alone...to glorify the name of our Savior and Lord, Jesus. When we unashamedly speak His name or minister in His name in an attempt to convert souls, we WILL be persecuted. We must, however, always remember...it is not WE who are being persecuted, but the name of Jesus. It is not WE who are being laughed at, physically bruised, or fired from a job...it is the Lord Himself. We are not our own, but have been bought by a price - the blood of the Lamb of God. It is not WE who live, but Christ lives in us. Therefore, all of our "rights" have been surrendered so that we are now full-time servants of the Most High God. If you try serving the Lord and at the same time holding on to your precious rights, you will not be a happy servant. But if you surrender everything to the Lordship of the only One who can give you eternal life, you will know the JOY OF THE LORD in all of life's circumstances. His grace will be suffiscient to ease all of your suffering. If your suffering, however, is due to any other reason than the spread of the Gospel or attempts at the discipling of believers, The Lord will minister to you through His church if you call for prayer. I just wanted you to know the difference between suffering for righteousness sake (the spread of the Gospel) and suffering for any other reasons. Many church members consider personal setbacks and other non-spiritual related issues as "suffering for Jesus." When you suffer for Jesus, it is always the result of being in the direct battle with Satan over the souls of men. May God equip you and use you powerfully in that on-going battle until He comes again for His Church.
rosalieartist I don't know the reason behind you losing your faith. The reasons one leaves the Christian belief is many and varied. Mostly it seems it is becasue someone who says they are of Christ acts in such a way that they hurt one such as youself. Maybe it is because nonbelievesr seem to have all the answer. Maybe it is becasue God seems so distance and you can't hear Him, I don't know. I want you to know I believe God is calling you back to Him. You are like the lost sheep of the 99 and He His calling out to you. Jesus says to Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be added on to you. The evidence for a Creator God and the death and resurrection of His Son is overwhelming if one cares to look and try and understand. books like "I Don't have enough Faith to be an Atheist" by N.Geisler and F.Turek or Lee Strobles books Case for Christ, Case for Faith, Josh Mcdowells "evidence that demands a verdict. are just a few. A series of 1 hour studies called the Truth Project out of Focus on the Family is another good resource to check out. Or pray and read the Gospel of John, 1st,2nd,and 3rd John.
let Gods Spirit minister to you through His word. He loves you more then you will ever know this side of eternal life. He sent His Son to die for you as well as all people. I will be praying for you. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
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POSTSCRIPT:
Jesus as Social Worker or as Savior..."
http://jesusassocialworker.blogspot.com/
- Forwarded Message -
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Christianity is in decline because of the Left's
MARXIST//SOCIALIST//COMMUNIST//FEMINIST
revolution begun in the 1960s.
Read my essays for
a better understanding :
Liberals' Cult of Non-Judgmentalism // The Unholy Alliance
http://foundersamerica68.blogspot.com/
Rush Limbaugh is a Kook
http://rushlimbaughisakook.blogspot.com/
Underlying Psychology of Politics
http://underlyingpsychologyofpolitics.blogspot.com/
Kids' Cult of Vicarious Permission
http://foundersamerica75.blogspot.com/
Censorship
http://foundersamerica67.blogspot.com/
Contact: Deacon Elurby at founders_america@hotmail.com
#######
#######
#######
#######
Christianity is in decline because of the Left's
MARXIST//SOCIALIST//COMMUNIST//FEMINIST
revolution begun in the 1960s.
Read my essays for
a better understanding :
Liberals' Cult of Non-Judgmentalism // The Unholy Alliance
http://foundersamerica68.blogspot.com/
Rush Limbaugh is a Kook
http://rushlimbaughisakook.blogspot.com/
Underlying Psychology of Politics
http://underlyingpsychologyofpolitics.blogspot.com/
Kids Cult of Vicarious Permission
http://foundersamerica75.blogspot.com/
Censorship
http://foundersamerica67.blogspot.com/
Contact: Deacon Elurby at founders_america@hotmail.com
#######
#######
I think there are many reasons for the loss of interest in the Christianity, but in my opinion, the biggest is the pull of the secular world we live in, with its interest in luring young children into shallow, pornographic, violent, self-centered, meaningless toys, games, movies, posters, clothing, etc. Meanwhile, many parents lose the battle by the time their "Christian" children become teenagers and are lost to the world. The answer isn't for churches to become entertainment centers, to "attract" people. The answer is for us to pray for God to touch the hearts of every person, so that they will stop turning to secular "solutions" and open up the Bible to explore God's Word and find the real solution to their life problems - and then it isn't so much which church you find because you can be the catalyst that changes a dull church once your own heart is on fire with faith and love for the Lord. But be bold about sharing your faith, even at work. We need to keep "lighting the fire". I personally don't allow politics to dictate what I can and can't say or do with my faith. I'm always respectful of others' rights, anyway. I'm called to share the Gospel. That's what will stop the Christianity from dwindling. Real people, one by one, receiving the seed of faith.
I think the danger of mega churches, is that by virtue of their size it destroys intimacy... We are created for intimacy and Scripture says there is a way that seems right unto man but whos path leads to death... Mega Churches often preach "Christian-lite".... Joel Olsteen is a perfect example
I think the devil is having a great time deceiving people into thinking that they have to be a member of a church to maintain their salvation. God's people are saved by HIM and our allegiance is to Him. Churches offer religious experiences, not spiritual ones. The Bride of Christ is another story. That Body will be spotless and untainted by the many forms of false teachings and salvation by works that every church in the world promotes at some level.
Bingo!!! Actually, I am a member of a megachurch. We have about 7000 people. Most of them have been burned in other churches. One of the major concerns is if people are actually saved? Do they have a correct understanding of the gospel? Is church just some place to go on Sunday and do the "church" thing or is a place where God's people gather to worship, encourage and learn?
I do lay ministry at this church. The pastor and I are on the same page. I don't exactly look like the pastor type and work with the 'outer church' made up of those who are looking for answers without getting burned again.
Believe me folks, the megachurch like ours and many others fully realize the problems with such a large church. Why are the megachurches growing so much? It creates an environment where people who want to heal can heal in Gods time and have the support they need. The problem, contrary to STEVEs post isn't a lack of called ministers in the pulpit. It's a lack of called ministers among the people.
As for "called ministers", the Bible says Pastors are 'sent' along with several other positions in the faith. The 'acid test' is the fruits. If they sow and reap from the flesh ... or do they sow and reap from the Spirit?
One of the errors in today's Gospel presentation is the idea that God has a "WONDERFUL" plan for your life. Because the term "WONDERFUL" is ambiguous it can start Christians off on the wrong footing in that from the very beginning they can develop unreasonable expectations of God. These unreasonable expectations potentially lead to disillusionment. Too many pastors want to be people pleasers which is demonstrated in their sermons nurturing ldealism in their hearers. Leaders need to stop making positivity the final filter for what should be said and instead should preach the plain truth. It is better to emphasize the down side of living for Christ so that when the up side is experienced the Christian is pleasantly surprised than to emphasize the up side which when the down size comes can lead to disillusionment and experiencing a loss of faith. We must be clear on what the object of our faith is. It is on God and His Word not on unreasonable expectations or catchy religious cliches from the Health and Wealth proponents.
Church leaders just don't get it. Great big mega-churches are growing, but growing with people, who are probably not even Christian. There is a Political Correctness, which reveals that the church has escaped reality. Then the voices are limited to one to two pastors who control what is said. Just as the reformers were killed, burnt at the stake and persecuted, so any voice for God that is not according to the pastors agenda, is prohibited. Who would want to join a cult like this? Only the wilfully blind. To a degree, the greatest favor the mega-church pastors could do the country is to stand up before the congregation and say, "While we are growing in numbers as a congregation, but we are not doing America any good. We ought to divide into groups of 100's, 250's and 500's and establish disciple-making churches, relating to one another groups in our respective communities! This building will be sold and is no longer available."
I can tell you now! No money hungry leader is going to do that! It has become more about self than the well being of all. People think they can survive in a political correct church, be accountable to no-one, and grow as a Christian. They cannot. True Christianity demands relationship,. We were created, not only to be dependent upon the Most High God, but also dependent upon the Christ within one another. Christians have made themselves dependent upon the 'pastor's word' for the week. Hence, they are limited by the leadership and they limit one another. Gifts and callings are sitting in these large mega-churches are lying dormant. All to the gratification of the mega-church pastor and the detriment of the nation.
It’s just going to get worse! The pastors are just giving the people exactly what they are wanting.
curiousbonefish, I was once like DRJ myself, then I was like you. It's two sides of the same coin. What I read in DRJs post is he was referring to the Church and not the church. The church is an orgainization of those who go to church. The Church is the body of Christ. Many run from the battlefield. Few run towards it. It's difficult being left wounded on the spiritual battlefield wondering why no one cares enough to help. The bottom line is there's nothing judgemental about knowing "them by their fruits". The Bible says to 'test the spirits' in order to see what they are (this would be by judgement).
I was a custodial single parent with 4 school age children (who are all now grown) so I do know something about hard times and people turning their backs on you. However, that is when you discover those who really understand the gospel and those who don't. Many will say Lord, Lord but few will enter. We need to rightly divide the Word and apply it. I don't want someone saying "you saw it and didn't say anything and now I'm headed for hell".
I see in the gospels where Jesus showed the example of calling it as it is. Anything less is not following His example.
I read some of your comments and your so-called "insight" about what the church is and isn't supposed to be and I laugh. You sound very much like Job's "wise" friends.
The issue of Christians falling away is most likely (speaking from a world of personal experience here) the failure of the Church (that's you and I, not some larger group of believers) to address suffering as an integral part of the Christian faith and our relationship to God. Instead, emphasis is placed on playing the part of the "good Christian", keeping your suffering to yourself, shake your heads at those who go through a crisis of faith, and abandon anyone getting in the way of the overall purpose and vision of the Church.
You people are something. Don't you know better than to pass on these judgements of people. DRJ, your incredibly uneducated comment (The CHURCH is comprised of people who have died to themselves and now live as unto the Lord Jesus. They have surrendered any and all of the "rights" they once clung to as non-believers. They exist to please the Lord and to make known His love to the rest of mankind. If anyone belongs to a "church" that doesn't believe, live, and preach these things, they had better hit the road, shake off the dust, and move on to a healthy group that does) is unfortuately the norm today, and comes from fear and from people who have never been, or never admitted to being, broken. DRJ, I would like to see how long you would own those words if God decided to burst your little self-righteous bubble and throw your life into complete despair. I have no room for people who have not been down on your face before the Lord, with your soul writhing in despair, calling on the Lord to restore you, listening to His silence. Oh, and losing everyone around you from the "Church" because they believe just like you and run in fear for their own lives. DRJ, once you get to that point, go back and read your post and see how you feel about it then.
How do I know? Why, because I was like you before God brought me to my knees.
If a shepard can lead his flock to the lush green grass of the Word of God, and to the cool running water of the Spiirit.he shouldn't have any problem with the Chief Shepard or the
sheep.Never the less the sheep will come and go; but be the faithful shepard and they will
come home.Kinda sounds like li'l Bo Peep.
I can understand how someone can get "lost", when a new beleiver isn't discipled to and not taught how to pray, how to listen to the spirit, I can understand how you can flounder and fall out...
Chris333; There is a distinct difference. many pastors enter the seminary "believing' or are "pretty sure" they have the calll. Many pastors from day-1 on entry into the seminary usually have limited career goals, and the #1 goal to have "their own church" and hang a "pastor's shingle" out.
I have met many ministers/pastors throughout my walk and I can tell you that while most are well intentioned there are few who can state with a certainty, "God called me to this place".
What I have more heard is, " I felt called".. The call is not a feeling. The "Call" is something so strong that it interferes with every other worldly concern....
I was called when I was 16.. that conviction stayed with me until 37 years old.... and I finally surrendered to it.
The reason the church is dying is because a man truly called by God would not be fearful to preach the truth. Look at the church today.. it's dying in its current form because the church made a deal with the devil here in the US when churchs accepted the tax exemption..it came with a string.. they werent allowed to preach about particular politicans or else...
Though I can't imagine how it could happen, I can't imagine anything sadder than to loose a relationship with God. I know many people who have never accepted God's Love and Grace. I know people who went to Church and stated a believe in God but never fully embraced the relationship. It would be one thing to fall from a faith that had never developed into a relationship, and quite another to loose the most awsome experience a human can have. I pray it never happens to me or anyone!
Steve, can you explain what delineates a "called minister" as opposed to an "uncalled minister", is there any test the Bible gives?
People run away because of the lack of CALLED MINISTERS in the pulpit!
It is no wonder our nation has turned from MAN-MADE CHURCHES people still must be lead to Christ by the power of God's Holy Spirit.
To fully appreciate a statement like..."31 million members have left their churches..." I would have to know why those 31 million were in their churches in the first place. I would also have to know whether or not the churches they were members of WERE, INDEED part of the church of Jesus Christ! There are so many confederate denominations these days, I'm sure that even more will exist until Jesus reappears and calls His true church out of this realm. The CHURCH is comprised of people who have died to themselves and now live as unto the Lord Jesus. They have surrendered any and all of the "rights" they once clung to as non-believers. They exist to please the Lord and to make known His love to the rest of mankind. If anyone belongs to a "church" that doesn't believe, live, and preach these things, they had better hit the road, shake off the dust, and move on to a healthy group that does.
There is something very wrong with our discipleship programs at church if people fall away--or allowed to fall away--because they thought that God would keep them from suffering and sadness. People leaving church because of toxic, control-freak pastors is another huge topic, but that's for another time.
Not having read the entire book I can't say what the author means when he says he or someone else has lost their faith. I don't know many Christians who at one time or another, most especially during times of crisis have not asked where is God or does God even care but that does not mean that they lost their faith to the point they are no longer a child of God and like the author said for many who have walked this path once God brought them through, it made both their faith and walk even stronger. But I also agree that there are too many unsaved peoples names on church rolls today, as one said thay've bought into the idea that salvation is only about going to heaven and not hell, rather than salvation is all about establishing a strong, intimate, and growing relationship with God through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. Plus thanks to the prosperity gospel there are many who believe that if they are going through tough times it's their fault because they don't have enough faith to keep them and their loved ones healthy and wealthy. I look forward having the opportunity to read the whole book.
i think one of the major difficulties arises due to the church focusing on salvation as a means to an end... i.e. we get saved so we can go to heaven.
it would be better if the church preached the parable of the builder more often, asking those who wish to adopt a life of discipleship to weigh up the cost beforehand. After all, the message of jesus was repentance and discipleship. somewhere it became get saved and go to heaven, which has little really to do with the new testament gospel of the good news.
When the church begins to address the fact that people have to live everday, and the gospel is for today not just the afterlife, things will turn around.
Rob Bell's church sort of begins to graps this thorn, by discussing everyday issues such as sex in its regular meetings. Sex is a major part of human experience, but because christianity is so obsessed with the hereafter rather than holiness (in its proper sense) in this life, the issues which really affect people are brushed under the carpet, in favour of 'worshipping god'. When the church recognises the fact that life is not meant to be broken down into secular and religious boxes things might begin to change.
Steve
faith is a lifestyle of actions, not a state of being. I do not have faith, I exercise it. mental assent does not cut it. Live the Life
i cannot say why any one person has left the church. but i can say by the way tthe issue of homosexuality has been processed that the majority of christendom, though believing in christ have never embraced the new covenant. there is a majority opinion that believes that christ came to earth to give us or affirm more laws for us to die to.(romans)
there is an insistence on being led by the law rather than the spirit.(romans) they still insist on following the law instead fulfilling it by following the 3 commandments of love.
instead of fellowship being our priority of living(if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another)instead, it is espousing our beliefs and looking for others who espouse the same
after a religous revolution of the 70's we are now in the religious dark ages of the 21st century,
and it will remain in this state until there is movement toward embacing the spirit.
We do not give a clear salvation message. That is what kept me from salvation for 38 years. It is not repeating a prayer or a phrase. Salvation comes from what you believe not by what you do. What Jesus did on the cross, by dying and shedding his blood he paid the sin debt for all. His rising from the dead guaranteed that He was God. By that ultimate act of love he paid the debt we couldn't pay. It is a free gift to receive by faith. How hard is that to explain. It's not a decision, it a belief. Once you believe thats it. You are sealed eternally with the Holy Spirit. One part of the Godhead lives within you. How can you truly stray from God if he is within you. I doubt there is a real knowledge of the truth. Most go to church their whole life and never hear the true gospel of grace. We are brought up in denominations, learning traditions not doctrine. I had a head knowledge of the death, burial and resurrection. I believed I was saved but I was as lost as anyone. But since I heard the true gospel of grace, I can't contain my thirst for knowledge of God's word. I say you better examine what you truly believe. Are you getting your doctrine from Paul's epistles or by a denomination. In Paul's writings are the message from the risen Lord that we are saved by the cross. 1 Cor 15 1-4 is the gospel. Believe that and be saved.
I kinda went through this, but it was more like i quit taking it so seriously, I always have kept my belief in Christ as my savior, but going to college put a huge wound on my relationship with God, i did the party sceen and let a lot of my morals go, after about 4 years life began to crumble. it seemed as if God had decided that giving me breaks in life wasnt important anymore. and one day i remeberd about a guy who kinda reminded me of myself. His name was Job, and after reading his book i realized mainly that i had become self rightious, and i wasnt anywhere near the good good christian i though i was, I prayed that day and just said, "I give up, you win, now please help me change my ways to a life more pleasing to you" i was dead serious in my prayer, my personal ego got ripped out of me that day. and since that day (although i have hit a few stumbling blockson my way) I have started going to church more, reading my bible dayly and just basicly did a 180 in my life. I belive that social life at college has a big impact on a lot of younger christians, I have seen a lot of people go down like i have, and i am so thankful i was able to climbe out of the huge hole i dug for myself. I pray for my fallen brothers and sisters who are still walking blinly twords the edge that they wake up. Im not very proud of my past, but imlooking forward to a brighter future with Jesus back in the main part of my life. we're so lucky to have a God like ours that takes us back with open arms when we run away, and that He still love us just the same when we come back.
i am one of those lost ones. have lost all hope...
"why millions of Americans are leaving the church and never to return"
The answer is sadly simple: They were either never Christians in the first place or the Church they are leaving is not speaking the truth. I fear the former is more prevalent by FAR than the latter.
Patrick Burwell@OnlyJesusSaves.com
GeneThomas,
I wasn't condemning the saved, only asking a question as to whether or not a person can lose their faith and still be saved. I do know a lot of people go to churches and are invited to pray a prayer, but because they are not drawn by the Spirit of God, there is no true conversion. In any case, I feel my question was accurately answered and with wisdom. Sorry if I offended you.
One wonders if this is a problem because many local churches focus more on trying to help people live better lives than focusing on helping people to love Christ more. We replace burden of the Law with the lists that "every Christian" should do (you must read your Bible every day, pray to God for at least 30 minutes, journal, fellowship, etc.) which does not free us from the burden but transfers the burden.
Mix that with some of the other modern myths about being a Christian (happy all the time, prosperity, healed of disease, being a better person) and when we stumble or fail, our faith is easily shattered!
Let's get back to the truths in Scriptures not the wishes of people.
We are sinners. We need salvation. We cannot change ourselves. We need to repent. We need to rely on God. We need to accept His soverignty in all things. We need to expect persecution and trials and failure. We need to remember it is about God being glorified through everything that happens to us. It might be a long journey to sanctification. It is joy we strive for not happiness.
phew, I think I'll get off my soapbox.
For HIS Glory,
TW
I recently rededicated my life to serving Christ and starting attending church again after turning my back on God and church for five years. I never lost my faith in God's Word although I almost stopped practicing Christianity.
Salvation is reasured in a Christian's life by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit which is at work in those who believe and by the "fruits" a person bares from serving Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord in the power of the Holy Spirit. You can tell a tree by its fruit.
Hebrews 11:6 says "Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
Hope Page: itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com
CRC and song2vs4 make a point that many will echo, even if silently. But I think it is a dangerous thing to apply our judgment that another person is not saved in the absence of overt activity that strongly indicates such. One might ask, has the person who is having this faith crisis really (completely) lost their faith? Or is it just that--a crisis. Often, we rely too much on the precise words that are used to describe a condition while ignoring the feelings, emotions and history behind the words. Can "experientially" losing one's faith and then regaining it with an even stronger faith happen if initially ALL faith was really lost?
There are a lot of questions here. Let's not be so quick to condemn the saved when they are in trouble.
I would say that if you have lost the faith you are likely not saved. The Bible says "he that endures to the end, the same shall be saved". and also that we are to "take up your cross daily and follow Jesus". God is able to keep those who come to repentence but it is not a license to sin and God will not hold you against your will. I think Paul said "what then, shall we sin that grace may abound? no.". also Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". also remember the parable of the sower and where some of the seed quickly sprouted but then the cares of this life took over and ruined them".
...It's not that these Christians lost their salvation, but that they have lost their faith in the Bible, the church and Christian beliefs...
My question is were these real conversions? Can you "lose your faith" and still be saved? I thought the Bible said Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith?????
Anyone have any comments or input in this?