Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest provider of surgical abortions, has triggered protests and outcry from pro-life groups recently over a series of emails that were sent out soliciting donations "in honor” of Mother's Day.
Today's Christian News Online - The Christian Post
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
CP HOME
> Society > Ethics/rights
Planned Parenthood Promotes Mother's Day Abortions, Draws Protests
By
Alexander J. Sheffrin
Christian Post Reporter
Sat, May. 10 2008 06:54 PM EDT
[-] Text [+]
Comments
“The Bible is not literal, there is wiggle room in the Bible in this issue, you yourself admitted that the issue isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So stop treating it as such.”
“…but I want you to admit that the issue isn't as black and white as some would have you believe.…but I want you to admit that the issue isn't as black and white as some would have you believe."
Ifeelfine, the Bible is not an exhaustive examination of every single issue in our world. This does not mean that it does not speak to us in every issue. The two great commandments are love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Is torture listed in there? What about mental torture that does not cause bodily injury? What about self-imposed torture? Can we include forcing ourselves to go punch in from 9 to 5? While it may be fun to speculate about some things more than others, I don’t think that there is much one can speculate about being drowned with a mill stone tied around the neck. This was Christ’s measurement of the sin of harming a child. Even agentorange condemns abortion and he is an atheist. Do you not think that Christians ought to exhibit proper conduct in holy fear and trembling? For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17). Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27).
ifeelfine,
I would be perfectly willing to see it as gray if I thought it was. I have no reason to believe it is as gray as you say it is. The only possible point of "grayness" is in what constitutes a real human life. I refuse to say that a smaller human is less human. The fertilized egg is well on its way to becoming a full human adult.
iraneus said: "This is not my logic. It's your logic, for you are the one trying to compare the similarities between abortion and birth control. You are the one who stated, "Birth control is used to prevent conception and birth. Abortion is taking a conception and preventing birth - the outcome is the exact same for both." So this is YOUR logic. So using your same logic, I can demonstrate that sexual abstinance is actually closer in similarity to birth control than abortion because birth control is used to prevent conception and birth JUST as sexual abstinance - the outcome is the exact same for both. Now if you want to back pedal and say they are not similar, I would agree, just as birth control and abortion are not."
There is no "closer in similarity" about it, abstinence by definition is birth control - they are one in the same.
I'm not a Catholic anymore and actually believe that more people should practice birth control but my point is that the abortion is issue is not black and white - there are shades of gray to it and no one here seems willing to admit that.
iraneus: I've stated all along that I don't take the Bible literally. Anyway, you quoted Genesis, we are under a new covenant now.
ifeelfine72,
"Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
End of story. No other verses needed. . . . Unless of course you want to admit that you don't take the Bible literally."
Gen 9:6 "If anyone sheds the blood of man, BY MAN shall his blood be shed." End of story. No other verses needed. . . . Unless of course you want to admit that you don't take the Bible literally.
ifeelfine72,
"Nice try on the logic but abstinence isn't the same at all because there is no sex involved."
This is not my logic. It's your logic, for you are the one trying to compare the similarities between abortion and birth control. You are the one who stated, "Birth control is used to prevent conception and birth. Abortion is taking a conception and preventing birth - the outcome is the exact same for both." So this is YOUR logic. So using your same logic, I can demonstrate that sexual abstinance is actually closer in similarity to birth control than abortion because birth control is used to prevent conception and birth JUST as sexual abstinance - the outcome is the exact same for both. Now if you want to back pedal and say they are not similar, I would agree, just as birth control and abortion are not.
ifeelfine72,
"Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
End of story. No other verses needed. . . . Unless of course you want to admit that you don't take the Bible literally."
You do realize the difference between executing the death penalty and murder; the Bible certainly does.
also ifeelfine,
The word "murder" and "kill" are clearly separated in the Bible. It is absolutely forbidden to take a human life, EXCEPT, in cases where that person has committed some gross violation against another (murder etc.) As Christians, we live under Grace thus we must be merciful in our judgments of others, but that does not mean that the criminal does not deserve death, only that we should not exact such a punishment.
The main point here is that "murder" and "kill" are not equal.
ifeelfine,
"You do realize that this was the prevalent belief amongst Christians up until a couple hundred years ago? The story of Onan was interpreted this way."
This was not the prevalent belief, Christians have never said that each time the woman menstruates without bearing a child it is murder. There is no comparison here. As to the situation with Onan, this was only within the Catholic and some Protestant circles. Nonetheless, the sperm inside our bodies does die and become replaced, one way or the other. We are not murdering every child that could have been produced by each sperm You are making this extremely unclear and absurd by pushing this position, everyone agrees that life only happens after conception. At conception the fertilized egg has the full potential to become a complete human child, and all things being equal it will become one.
In all reality you do not believe what you are saying, and I dare say that absolutely no one does, the issue is about conception, not what happens to an unfertilized egg. You are running into the absurdities which I talked about.
Nice try on the logic but abstinence isn't the same at all because there is no sex involved.
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
End of story. No other verses needed. . . . Unless of course you want to admit that you don't take the Bible literally.
ifeelfine72,
“But those same things put forth in scripture also show why God is against the death penalty.”
Please cite chapter and verse specifying what 'same things,' and I will cite chapter and verse where God sanctions the death penalty. This will be easy for me, but quite difficult for you.
“And they are gray areas - if they aren't specifically mentioned in scripture then we are using reason and logic and . . . get ready for this . . . interpretation to make it so. I'm agreeing that they are wrong, but I want you to admit that the issue isn't as black and white as some would have you believe.”
Now… get ready for this… capital punishment is specifically mentioned in many instances as a disciplinary measure, which is precisely why you CANNOT say that God is against it.
“Philosophically, the potential is about the same. Birth control is used to prevent conception and birth. Abortion is taking a conception and preventing birth - the outcome is the exact same for both. I guess I don't even know why we are talking about this - all three of us are against abortion. I just see nuance and shades of gray whereas the two of you see it as a black and white issue.”
The reason you see it as gray is because your reasoning is not logical. If you examine what you just stated above, you would realize that conception makes all the difference between your two scenarios. Otherwise you are in the predicament of equating artificial birth control with sexual abstinence; after all, both prevent conception and birth; therefore, abstinance and abortion are equivalent since the outcome is the same result.
Chris said: "You must accept this or run into absurdities such as, "We must preserve every single sperm and egg and make every single one fertilized, or else we are committing murder".
You do realize that this was the prevalent belief amongst Christians up until a couple hundred years ago? The story of Onan was interpreted this way.
ifeelfine,
Everyone, and I mean everyone, agrees that without conception there is no human life. NOBODY disagrees with this. At conception there is the actual (I don't know what you mean by philosophical) potential for a full human life. You must accept this or run into absurdities such as, "We must preserve every single sperm and egg and make every single one fertilized, or else we are committing murder".
In all reality, a human life only begins and has potential at conception. You are forcing this to be gray, and it is not.
ireneus: But those same things put forth in scripture also show why God is against the death penalty. And they are gray areas - if they aren't specifically mentioned in scripture then we are using reason and logic and . . . get ready for this . . . interpretation to make it so. I'm agreeing that they are wrong, but I want you to admit that the issue isn't as black and white as some would have you believe.
Chris and Star: Philosophically, the potential is about the same. Birth control is used to prevent conception and birth. Abortion is taking a conception and preventing birth - the outcome is the exact same for both. I guess I don't even know why we are talking about this - all three of us are against abortion. I just see nuance and shades of gray whereas the two of you see it as a black and white issue.
ifeelfine72,
“[T]he exact same reasoning for being against abortion applies to the death penalty and it seems that some folks here are more interested in vengence than redemption and justice - very unChristian-like.”
Again, you demonstrate your inability to distinguish between innocence and guilt, so how can you say that the same reasoning applies to both abortion and the death penalty?
“You didn't ask me before if I thought pornography was licit or illicit but what is your point? Pedophilia isn't mentioned in the Bible either and I think we all agree that is wrong. And if it isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture, don't you think the possibility exists of being wrong?”
Thank you for proving my point; namely, that it’s wrong (abortion, pornography, pedophilia, etc) precisely because the principles against them are put forth in scripture, not necessarily because they are all explicitly condemned in scripture. Yet you want to claim them as ‘gray’ areas.
ifeelfine,
"I kind of see where you are coming from with the "potential" line of reasoning however then with that logic, birth control is equivalent of abortion and most Christians don't agree with that. "
No this is not at all comparable. A fertilized egg is a form of life, everyone agrees on this, it is a form of life with the full potential to become a human. An unfertilized egg does not have the potential to become human. You can only kill a human being if there was one there to begin with.
"But the exact same reasoning for being against abortion applies to the death penalty and it seems that some folks here are more interested in vengence than redemption and justice - very unChristian-like."
I don't think so. Abortion is taking a completely innocent life, the death penalty is taking the life of someone who has committed something atrocious, usually murder. Not that I agree with the death penalty either.
ifeelfine72
RE: birth control is equivalent of abortion and most Christians don't agree with that.
Doing something to prevent an egg from being fertilized is different than aborting a fertilized egg or a fertilized egg that became a fetus.
A non-ferilized egg has no life. A fertilized egg has life.
Chris: I kind of see where you are coming from with the "potential" line of reasoning however then with that logic, birth control is equivalent of abortion and most Christians don't agree with that.
Also, I don't get why folks are acting like I am in favor of abortion. I've made it very clear many times that I am 100% against abortion. But the exact same reasoning for being against abortion applies to the death penalty and it seems that some folks here are more interested in vengence than redemption and justice - very unChristian-like.
Iraneus: You didn't ask me before if I thought pornography was licit or illicit but what is your point? Pedophilia isn't mentioned in the Bible either and I think we all agree that is wrong. And if it isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture, don't you think the possibility exists of being wrong? Again, I've made it very clear where I stand and what I think the Christian position should be but it is more gray than you are willing to admit.
ifeelfine,
"As for when life begins, I said that it begins at conception because that seems to be in line with God's plan"
So if the unborn child is a full human life even at conception, then you are taking a full human life. This (believe it or not) is the definition of murder. The Bible condemns murder. This issue is over.
ifeelfine,
The question is not whether a fertilized egg is a fetus, because it is not a fetus, any more than a fetus is a child, any more than a child is an adult. They are all a human being though. I cannot say, "Oh well since a fetus is not a fully formed adult, it is not human, so it is alright if we kill it!" So why can we make the arbitrary judgement that a fertilized egg is not a fully formed fetus and thus we have the right to kill it?
The truth is that a fetus has the full potential to become a child and then an adult, if it has the potential, then it is not right for us to take that potential. It is just wrong.
In the same way, a fertilized egg has the full potential to become a fetus, and then a child, and finally an adult. As fellow human beings we simply do not have the right to take that potential away.
ifeelfine72,
“Anyway, what makes you any more superior than I at deaming when a fetus becomes a child. This is a nuanced issue and you treating it like a black and white issue doesn't help.”
What makes you more superior at deeming that the fetus may not be a child at conception? And in fact, your position would be harder to defend since you had better make darn sure that you are correct; otherwise you are sanctioning murder. And while the below quotes are not scripture, they certainly testify from a historical perspective as to what the early church thought about abortion, not to mention that every Christian denomination without exception condemned abortion as a moral evil; that is, until some of the more liberal branches caved in in the 20th century.
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
"What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers? . . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it" (Athenagoras - A Plea for the Christians 35 [A.D. 177]).
ifeelfine72,
“Jesus always looked out for the least of his people - no one is more "least" than a hardened criminal.”
Yes, and never once did he coddle them in their sin or confirm them in their sin. Rather, He stated that they are to “Repent and believe in the gospel,” or “Go and sin no more,” or “Repent or you will likewise perish.” And even then, Jesus never stated that they would not suffer consequences or chastisement for their sins. And of course, Jesus taught the reality of the eternal death penalty.
“As for when life begins, I said that it begins at conception because that seems to be in line with God's plan, but you're making the issue much more black and white than it is and that is a real problem.”
Rather, you blurring the lines is the real problem. If the unborn baby is indeed a human life (which of course it is), then abortion is murder. There is no gray area.
“The Bible is not literal, there is wiggle room in the Bible in this issue, you yourself admitted that the issue isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So stop treating it as such.”
I never said that it is not mentioned in scripture; I stated that it is not explicitly mentioned in scripture. And there is no wiggle room on this issue... there is no sort of, kind of, just maybe, not really, but kind of close to murder about abortion.
So, by analogy I ask you again, is pornography morally licit?
I'm a literalist? o.o Huh? Sorry for sounding a bit dumb, but what's that?
iraneus: Jesus always looked out for the least of his people - no one is more "least" than a hardened criminal.
As for when life begins, I said that it begins at conception because that seems to be in line with God's plan, but you're making the issue much more black and white than it is and that is a real problem. The Bible is not literal, there is wiggle room in the Bible in this issue, you yourself admitted that the issue isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So stop treating it as such.
Anyway, what makes you any more superior than I at deaming when a fetus becomes a child. This is a nuanced issue and you treating it like a black and white issue doesn't help.
Diary - you're a literalist, aren't you? well then, those passages only talk about that if you don't take the Bible literally.
JC: I agree whole-heartedly with you on this.
To irenaeus:
Great analogy, I never thought of the single-cell find on another planet, good call.
Another double-standard, that I find more disturbing, is when a pregnant woman gets killed, whether accidentally, or murder. The killers are charged with more than one death, and most of these have stuck, and most are still in prison.
With that same logic, shouldn't the courts also be expressing this same interpretation of law onto the abortion clinics as well? One would think.
JC,
“When does life begin, conception or birth? … The truth is, no one can definitively state when life begins except God.”
Not only has God revealed it, but science has proved it. There is no question that life begins at conception. If they found a single primitive cell under a rock on Mars, the scientific community would shout exuberantly that life has been found on another planet, yet an embryo with the full DNA of both mother and father in the womb of the mother is questioned as to whether it is a life. Come on! Of course life begins at conception. Even pro-abortionists, scientists, and doctors who are intellectually honest will admit as much. Since this is unquestionable, they are forced to twist the argument to be not ‘Is it a life?,” but whether “Is it a viable human life?”
"That passage in Exodus is sometimes used by abortionists to say the Bible justifies abortion"
If the Scripture has a confusing verse that looks as if it has two meanings, there is another verse in the Scripture that explains it in more detail. The Lord made it clear to us that he forbids murder so I really don't know how this verse can be used to justify abortion. Probably another one you might have to explain to me because the Bible must not contradict itself because it's a mirror of our Lord's will for us.
Oh, and I flagged myself. Didn't like my last message D:
Well, ifeelfine, what qualifies to you what a passage must have in order to be pertaining to a subject? To me, those verses say alot about abortion so I really don't understand why they're not singing to you. :\ You're going to have to explain that one to me.
When does life begin, conception or birth? It's amazing to me on how the original argument has been glossed over with political agenda.
The truth is, no one can definitively state when life begins except God. Some scientists and doctors say it begins at birth, others at conception. But they are only guessing and truly have no idea either. If they were able to prove that, they would see God, as they would see the soul as well, and there would be no argument at all.
Beloved, since no one can be sure if life begins at conception or birth, it is always better to err on the side of life. Even if there is even the slightest bit of chance of life, this life should be protected by all existing means and laws.
Anything short of this and an organization or person that facilitates this is no better than the Nazi regime of the past. Instead, depending on their own arrogant presumption for their wisdom.
God created life, and He told us to cherish and respect it. He told us not to destroy it, but to love and honor life.
Therefore, logically, the ones who don't honor and respect life, would have a different master. Any guesses on who that would be?
You shall know them by their fruits.
ifeelfine72,
“and none of those other passages mention or have anything to do with abortion.”
Now wait a minute, you just stated that the abortion ‘debate’ stands or falls on the issue of whether the fetus can be deemed a human being - a ludicrous proposition according to you. But that’s precisely what these ‘other’ passages establish. So while these passages do not explicitly address abortion, they certainly establish the principle of when life begins and the sanctity of that life, and thus by extension, the immorality of killing this life in the womb.
I still cannot see how someone can advocate abortion! Every time I even think about doing something in my day-to-day routine, a little voice in my head always tells me whether I am doing right or wrong. Perhaps it is because these people are lost, and do not have the Holy Spirit in them to tell them they are wrong. And for Christians who advocate abortion, seriously what do you think Jesus would say to that? I mean come on now; you know that Jesus would not stand for abortion for any reason at all! God loves every single one of us, and it is up to us Christians to show that love. Just look at any child, and you can see the hand of God working.
ifeelfine72,
"You know where I stand on abortion but at least there is a question as to whether a fetus is a baby or not - to call it a "child" is completely ludicrous."
Then when during the gestation period does it become a human being? Is it murder at six-months gestation, but not a six-months less a day? How about three-months? Catch a clue; your logic is what's ludicrous.
ifeelfine72,
“Actually the death penalty is worse than abortion.”
You're kidding, right? Upon what basis do you make such an outlandish claim? The execution of a guilty person, say, Ted Bundy is worse than murdering an innocent unborn baby. Do you even grasp the fundamental concept of innocence and guilt? I’m sorry, but I simply do not know how to respond to such a foolish statement.
“Abortion isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible…”
Neither is pornography, so what’s your point? Let's not confuse a specific term being absent from scripture versus the concept or principle being present.
“Jesus did condemn and eye for an eye . . . He didn't say, except when the gov't wants to do it. He made no exception for it.”
You are sadly mistaken. Jesus was condemning individual retaliation; He was not condemning governmental authority or individual self-defense. For example, notice that when the repentant thief was admonishing the unrepentant thief while on the cross, saying “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? We have been condemned justly, for we have received the just punishment for our crimes…,” Jesus did not correct the repentant thief.
Chris: You are 100% right on the abortion debate (although calling it a debate takes a little edge off the severity of it).
Seedplanter: You know where I stand on abortion but at least there is a question as to whether a fetus is a baby or not - to call it a "child" is completely ludicrous.
Diary: That passage in Exodus is sometimes used by abortionists to say the Bible justifies abortion, and none of those other passages mention or have anything to do with abortion. I've said it a bunch of times, its only when we tackle this issue in the spirit of God that we find it is completely opposite God's plan.
The entire point of the prolife/choice debate is based upon whether a fertilized egg is a human being or not, and at what point it becomes human. If a fertilized egg is a human, then abortion is murder, if it is not then it is not murder. This has nothing at all to do with, "Does the Bible say abortion?" The Bible is clear on murder, so we must decide if abortion is actually murder or not.
Personally, I believe any attempt to define a fertilized egg as inhuman is going to be pretty shallow. Then you simply have to ask, "When does it become human?", I asked somebody this once, and they replied, "When it has a nervous system" Well isn't that nice, and arbitrary.
ifeelfine72, in response to nothing being in Scripture about abortion:
Exodus 21:22-23 If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life.
Psalm 139:13-16a For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful., I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.
Jeremiah 20:17 (in the prophet's anguish I might add) For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever.
Psalms 127:3-5 Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate.
Luke 18:15-16 People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."
Do you need any more verses?
Jesus also warned that it would be better that a millstone be tied around your neck and be thrown in the sea in contrast to harming a little child.
B I G , B I G difference between justice and murder.
"Actually the death penalty is worse than abortion."
You really have fallen off your rocker.
Sometimes I wonder if you say these things for attention.
Jesus wasn't referring to the death penalty per say. Perhaps you have also forgotten Paul's referrence to those who bare the sword, do not do so in vain and that the authorities are there for our protection.
ifeelfine72 wrote, "ireneus: Actually the death penalty is worse than abortion. Abortion isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible and Jesus did condemn and eye for an eye . . . He didn't say, except when the gov't wants to do it. He made no exception for it."
Yet as irenaeus pointed out , Genesis 9:6 is a very proper justification of the death penalty.
Though it should not be used in the cases of abortion, as most wisely conclude, some people in our society are just bent on murdering people, and need to be stopped from doing so. To avoid the death penalty as a real and right way to stop murderers, and a deterent from others committing murder, is to be an ostrich with one's head in the sand. Many people do not kill for the very reason that justice may be served to them by the government through captial punishment. Romans 13 says that the government is one way that God has a servant on earth who "does not bear the sword for nothing." In any event, it is still a grave sin that Planned Parenthood is doing/advocating so many abortions and God will judge them severely either sooner or later. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
ireneus: Actually the death penalty is worse than abortion. Abortion isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible and Jesus did condemn and eye for an eye . . . He didn't say, except when the gov't wants to do it. He made no exception for it.
ifeelfine72 ,
“What you stated isn't Biblical. I am 100% against abortion because it is against God's plan (and is murder) but so is the death penalty. At least with abortion, there could be a question, but I know those people are alive when they are killed via the death penalty.”
The death penalty is not necessarily unbiblical. We know that capital punishment is not intrinsically evil because God Himself often sanctioned it. Now some may cry foul regarding legal and disciplinary requirements of the Old Testament that no longer hold for us today, but one should look at Gen 9:6 which was part of the Noahic covenant which PRECEDED the Law; i.e., "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed" predates Israel and the Levitical Law and would seem to be binding for all peoples and times. Even under the Law, murder seems to be the only crime for which no restitution was possible (Num 35: 31, 33). While I don’t necessarily advocate the death penalty, it is in no way the same as abortion.
chicago24,
“Mostly, they prevent many more unwanted pregnancies and thus, prevent many more abortions than they perform, certainly more than anyone who protests against them.”
Not only asinine logic, but that statement is not necessarily true, since an artificial contraceptive mentality breeds an abortive mentality. Why? Abortion is simply viewed by many as a backup to failed artificial contraception. Even the U.S. Supreme Court has said as much.
Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the recent Supreme Court decision that confirmed Roe v. Wade, stated, "in some critical respects abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception . . . . for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail."
Scitsonga,
“Dude, are you serious? Your not even close. Suppose you site your statistics, I would be very interested to see them. I know plenty of folks that after about three or four mores kids than they wanted that the natural method didn't work well so they went for vasectomies and tubal legations.”
Dude, are you serious? If I’m not even close, then apparently you already have the statistics, so why don’t you share? BTW, I know plenty of couples who were using artificial contraception whose last child was a ‘surprise.’
Scitsonga,
“not likely with this type of diagnosis with moden day medical imaginmg such as MRI.”
You didn’t answer the question: Why not wait until they're born, verify the abnormality, then kill them?
jjdiogenes: I don't know whether you are asking seedplanter rhetorically (as your name might imply) or if you are genuinely curious but seedplanter has taken a common position amongst fundamentalists. However there are many that don't believe it is of God. Just because it is sanctioned by the state doesn't mean it is ok, otherwise everyone here should be in favor of abortion (the same logic applies).
I find the phrases Planned PARENTHOOD and Abortion kind of ironic when put together. If anyone fells the need for an abortion they kind of failed at the planning part.
Oh, OK seedplanter.
jjdiogenes - "Then I am guessing that you are also speaking out this vehemently against the death penalty?"
If you are asking whether or not there is a difference in the Hebrew for "Thou Shalt not Kill" and the Old Testament mandate for capital punishment, the answer is yes there is a difference and therefore at this point I am not against the death penalty. There are plenty who disagree with that, but in either case it in no way endorses abortion.
And for the record while there may be an embryo that is a few days old that could cause a person to question scientifically speaking whether or not it is actually a human being, this does not equate abortion on demand as propagated by Planned Parenthood. As Peter Singer and others have tried to argue as to what constitutes a human even after birth, by proposing infanticide for those deemed unfit for society reveals the ethical ‘point of no return’ when questioning what exactly constitutes a human being. Do we start with the first heart beat? The first breath? The first sound? The first step? The first word? The first ____?
(I flagged myself)
Who flagged seedplanter and why?
One of the major differences betwee PP and CPCs is that PP is a for profit business, that's why they a scared to death and fighting tooth and nail to keep laws that require the expectant mom to have and view an ultrasound prior to having the abortion done in short they know it's bad for business, CPCs on the other hand provide their services free of charge. Also, as far as trying to compare the abortion issue to the death penalty issue, you're talking apples and oranges. They are two very different discussions, in the case of the death penalty you are talking about a person who willfully chose to murder another human being in the case of abortion you're talking about murdering another human being who is completely innocent of any wrong doing, one's view of one does not determine in any way, shape, or form how they will view the other, all this is is another ploy by the pro-abortion camp to avoid dealing with the real issue, the blatant murder of unborn babies.
IFEELFINE: Im glad you are prolife, but youa re incorrect about the death penalty. Itis not unbiblical. Christ taught us we are to submit to authority. As a matter of fact one of the most clear teachings on the correctness of the death penalty came directly from Jesus' lips... Pontius Pilot said he had power to give or take Jesus' life and Jesus told him, the only power you have is that which God himself has given you....
Alll authority is appointed by God. In I Sam Chapter 1 God warned his people about desiring a king... But that is what we desired...
IFEELFINE... The 10 COmmandments does not forbid killing... in the Hebrew, it actual means.. "thou shall not take the life of an innocent"......It refers to the murdering of innocent blood not the taking of guilty blood.
Abortion is a sin, it was punishable by death, if a baby was killed in the womb. In South Africa we charge people with murder if they kill an unborn child. But for some stupid reason forced on us by the United Nations we have legalised abortion on demand since 1996, the crazy thing is that here in South Africa like in America it is mostly black babies being murdered by Planned Parenthood, yes we have Planned Parenthood financed Abortuaries here in South Africa.
Interestingly they are well connected with the other great enemy of our respective nations the homosexual lobby. http://www.ppasa.org.za/
Scripture reads:
"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:22-25)
Proof of life at conception:
"But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother's breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God." (Psalm 22:9-10)
I once heard a radio ad from PP talking about all the great services they provide; they actually went through a list (can't remember the whole thing) and forgot to mention anything about abortion ... not even a happy euphamism :^(
If PP were a commercial storefront, and their products and services came in cans, each aisle would have a sign saying abortion over it. Their "other" services would be on the Impulse Rack at the checkout line. It's like Home Depot putting out an ad saying "Come to Home Depot! We have soda and flashlight batteries!"
Here's a link containing (at least one variant of) the email that was sent out. I think it's rather funny, in a twisted disturbing way, that this nice lady is proud that this legacy is meant to be carried on BY HER CHILDREN ... You'll find out just how profound that legacy is, come Judgement Day, Ms. Richards.
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/05/happy_mothers_d.html
to all you pro baby killers many of who call themselves Christians and all you non-believers. Yes you who love to accuse Bible beliveing Christians of being Judgemental. Are you not judgeing the worth of a unborn child? Are you not juding the worth and potential contributions that this unborn child may bring to the human before they have a chance? Seems pretty hyproctritical to me to judge something as innocent as child who has not yet been born. Just a thought.
Please protect the life of a unborn child, you mother did.
Gods blessing
In Christ Tom
Lex: What you stated isn't Biblical. I am 100% against abortion because it is against God's plan (and is murder) but so is the death penalty. At least with abortion, there could be a question, but I know those people are alive when they are killed via the death penalty.
Believer - Thank you for pointing out the CPCs and their important services. I'm not sure if the same services are available in Latin America. If not, I think we US believers should support those organizations that can develop means to provide those services in Latin America.
irenaeus - My comments were a response to the comments made by star2 that the woman had a choice. It seems that blame is many times put on the woman and it may be the case that she did not have a choice whether or not to engage in the sexual act.
All - I still say let us all work on eliminating the unjust social and economic conditions in which abortion is seen as a choice. Until this is done, there will always be abortion, whether legal or illegal.
Saving More Babies with Ultrasound
Crisis Pregnancy Centers Have Success Using Pictures
By Amy Contrada
February 2002
Before ultrasound was available at “A Woman’s Concern,” about 40-50% of the clients decided to keep the baby and not abort, Rev. John Ensor estimates. Recently at their Revere center, 77% of those receiving an ultrasound decided to keep the baby.
The same results are being reported throughout the country.
Nationwide, about 200 of the estimated 3,000 crisis pregnancy centers offer ultrasounds to their clients.
CHICAGO.. What could PP possibly do to make up for these many murders?
Planned Parenthood Reports Record Abortions, High Profits
By Randy Hall
CNSNews.com Staff Writer/Editor
June 15, 2007
(CNSNews.com) - Despite a drop in donations and the first fall in income from clinics in its history, the nation's biggest abortion provider made a high profit last year, thanks to the American taxpayer. Pro-lifers want this to stop.
During its 2005-2006 fiscal year, the nonprofit Planned Parenthood Federation of America performed a record 264,943 abortions, attained a high profit of $55.8 million and received record taxpayer funding of $305.3 million.
CHICAGO: Baloney... the greatest neutralizer of PP is the current legislation now being adoted in most states requiring an ultra sound of the fetus prior to an abortion and the mother must be shown the pcitures.. Do you know what the success rate is in stopping abortions using the ultra sound?
I dont think Im wrong when I believe I read it is 100% A picture is worth 1000 lies.
Providing abortions is only a small part of what Planned Parenthood does. Mostly, they prevent many more unwanted pregnancies and thus, prevent many more abortions than they perform, certainly more than anyone who protests against them.
The Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill," it says "Thou shalt not murder." Ending the life of an innocent child is murder. Carrying out the punishment for a crime that was written into the law of the land when the criminal committed the crime is killing. Probably not the best solution, but not the same as murdering a child.
And life begins at conception. The Bible, medical texts, university professors, and a US Senate committee all agree. It's not a radical, pro-life, conservative Christian idea. It's the truth that the media and PP keep conveniently concealed: http://abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html
Seedplanter - Then I am guessing that you are also speaking out this vehemently against the death penalty?
Seedplanter - And how do you know when life begins?
Scits,
That's right! They got those 3-d images now! I remember going all excited about that XD But all the same, even if the baby is born like that, why is it terrible to keep it living, even if it's barely clutching on to life? I heard about alot of stories where babies had to undergo such treatment to keep living and when they grow up, they're more happy to be alive. Why is it so terrible to keep the child alive?
Also even when birth control fails, does it still justify the use for abortion? You only responded to irenaeus's statistic evidence (whether it's true or not) and it looks like the argument flowed into a "which birth control method is better" so please understand my confusion in this :\
And Seedplanter, from that I just deduced that you know that a child is not just a lump of flesh or something, if undesireable, it could be killed. I wanna give a high-five to you :3
jjdiogenes: "Where in the bible does it say abortion is a sin?"
Thou shalt not kill.
-From the only Bible passage that was actually written by God Himself.
Planned Parenthood is pathetic!
"That would not justify abortion. Actually, statistically, artificial birth control is more likely to fail than natural methods."
Dude, are you serious? Your not even close. Suppose you site your statistics, I would be very interested to see them. I know plenty of folks that after about three or four mores kids than they wanted that the natural method didn't work well so they went for vasectomies and tubal legations
DiaryOfCross
"We don't know whether those genetic disorders will come to pass."
The condition I mentioned was easily seen with MRI after ultrasound showed some type of abnormality with the head.
irenaeus
"First, many doctors get the prenatal diagnosis wrong. Second, why not wait until they're born, verify the abnormality, then kiil them?"
not likely with this type of diagnosis with moden day medical imaginmg such as MRI.
Where in the bible does it say abortion is a sin?
peihaus,
"Perhaps she is married and her husband demands sex from her."
That would not justify abortion.
"Perhaps they have several children already and not enough money to feed and cloth the children, much less a new child."
That would not justify abortion.
"Perhaps the woman is the only wage earner for the family (the husband being disabled, an alcoholic, drug addict or other wise not able to hold down a job) and the company she works for will not keep employed workers who become pregnant (yes, this does happen in Latin America)."
That would not justify abortion.
"Perhaps the woman and her husband do not have access to birth control and they tried a natural method that failed."
That would not justify abortion. Actually, statistically, artificial birth control is more likely to fail than natural methods.
"Perhaps the husband is abusive towards the woman and any other children in the family."
That would not justify abortion.
"Perhaps there is some other situation in which abortion is seen as the only choice."
That would not justify abortion.
Would any of these reasons be able to justify killing their 3-yr-old?
scitsonga,
"what about the baby that was born with about half the brain missing due to serious fetal abnormality that now "lives" without the ability to move, see or talk, is on a feeding tube."
First, many doctors get the prenatal diagnosis wrong. Second, why not wait until they're born, verify the abnormality, then kiil them?
peihaus, has far as vilifying those women who choose abortion every Crisis Pregnancy Center that I have been aware of offers free post-abortion help and counseling to these women something that unless they have just started PP does not offer them. CPCs do their best to love the sinner even though they hate this sin. Even as a Section Commander in the Air Force I was called on to assist a young airman who had had an abortion because the place where she got it done had nothing to offer her, this was in 1988 when CPCs were just in there infancy and that is why I am so grateful to fellow believers who have listened to God and have started CPCs throughout our nation in order to assist these women and hopefully not only saving the lives of their unborn babies but showing them the love of Christ and seeing many of them come to Christ and for those who go through with the abortion helping them to not only experience the love of Christ but His cleansing and forgiveness as well.
dongard, two things do you know this for a fact or have you simply bought into PP, NARAL, and other Pro-Abortion propaganda and if you know this for a fact then let's see your facts. My sense is this is nothing but pure propaganda and secondly if it has happened it's isolated cases at best, plus if it were true the liberal media in our country would be on it like white on rice. Also, there was a time when abortion was illegal in our country and no such practices as this were ever heard of and the pro-abortion camp has the gall to accuse those of us in the pro-life camp of using scare tactics give me a break.
star2 wrote: "However, the woman would not had suffer that way had she accept the consequences of her sexual choices and made the choice to give birth to her child. If she didn't want to get pregnant then she shouild have disciplined her flesh and abstained from sex. People are not animals and are able to control their desires to engage in fleshly pleasures."
This statement assumes the woman actually had a choice to engage or not engage in sexual activity. It also assumes that the woman is solely responsible for becoming pregnant--the last I heard it still takes a woman AND a man for a pregnancy to occur naturally.
Perhaps she is married and her husband demands sex from her. Perhaps they have several children already and not enough money to feed and cloth the children, much less a new child. Perhaps the woman is the only wage earner for the family (the husband being disabled, an alcoholic, drug addict or other wise not able to hold down a job) and the company she works for will not keep employed workers who become pregnant (yes, this does happen in Latin America). Perhaps the woman and her husband do not have access to birth control and they tried a natural method that failed. Perhaps the husband is abusive towards the woman and any other children in the family. Perhaps there is some other situation in which abortion is seen as the only choice.
Let us work together"to love our neighbor as ourselves" and eliminate the injustices that may contribute to women choosing abortion. It is not helpful to vilify the women who have chosen abortion.