The California atheist whose effort to strip the phrase “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance was rebuffed by the U.S. Supreme Court three years ago has joined two parents to pursue the same legal battle.
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Newdow Brings New Challenge to Pledge of Allegiance
By
Lawrence Jones
Christian Post Reporter
Mon, Nov. 05 2007 03:30 PM EST
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Comments
IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL, MICHAEL NEWDOW! The kid doesn't have to actually recite it! I mean come on! Why do atheists have nothing better to do than sit and whine? They need to learn some tolerance! PLEASE, LEAVE US ALONE! PLEASE!
Wow...i just checked out the website that Citizen gave. "Deeply disturbing" is the only thing i can say. That's Satan's handiwork at its most blatant. I pray that God's mercy will keep me from falling into such a life. It would be awful to live that way after experiencing God's love and power in my life. It is all the more reason to reach out to the lost and make sure they are not sucked into that lie. Show them the love and hope of a God who died for them. Our God, who wants to have a relationship with them.
Let me clarify something...otherwise citizen will twist my words...." But the spiritual battle will continue until Jesus comes and sets His Kingdom up here on earth. And things will get worse. " What i meant is that things will get worse until Jesus does come back.
Thank you Tom. It's great to hear from someone who shares the same passion. I pray God continues to bless you as well on your perilous journey. "Though the road is long, I will not fear. Though the pain is strong, I will not fear." Judah, "This Is The Day".
I find it most humorous that these humanist people preach and "promote" tolerance. Which is true...as long as you believe what they believe. If they were truly tolerant, then they would tolerate my opinions and beliefs. It doesn't mean they have to agree. But the spiritual battle will continue until Jesus comes and sets His Kingdom up here on earth. And things will get worse. Yes, I do believe, as well, that this one world government is coming. It will be heralded as the greatest event to ever happen to this world. Unfortunately, it will turn sour very fast as they realize that the person that is in control of this new world wide entity has a sinister, self-seeking agenda...and really doesn't have the good of the world in mind. Let us pray, that if we remain during this time, that God will keep us strong in our faith...even to death. "If I live, I will live unto the Lord. If I die, I die unto the Lord. So whether I live or die...I am His." Romans 14:8
Prophet, i don't much know about Citizens affliation with the new age movement and/or the one world goverment which is coming if i understand the times we live in. What I do know is the hardness of His heart to all things of God and i weep for him. His dream of achieving a truly moral and loving community based on mutual secularism is a dream that will not last. Man by nature ir bent towards evil and his/her own desires. Without this God you and I serve as do millions of others their dream will soon turn into a nightmare for the average person. I want to thank you for the stance you have made in your posts and your willingness to take the heat and stand up for this truth we share in the person of Jesus Christ. May God Bless you and your
as you walk the narrow path.
In Christ
Tom
Prophet: That's way more interesting than the other fellow who thought I was a troll employed by Christian Post to keep things stirred up. Anyway, if you want to see the community I was referring to, here are a couple of links:
www.planethumanism.com
www.scienceblogs.com\pharyngula\
o my word! I just read citizen's posts! It is so thick with the New Age Spritualism that my stomach is in knots! He is so wrapped up in this satanic cult that i can feel it just by reading his posts. "rest assured that morality, community, and love are all available outside the context of religious mythology." "You will have the benefit of the secular community that is currently being built, and we would welcome you," That reeks of New World Order government cult. Now i understand why his screen name is Citizen. I kept trying to figure it out.
Citizen, Like all who are human there is doubt, but the evidence for a risen Christ is overwhelming to those who wish to use what you call rational thought process to seek His Truth. His word says that when we seek Him with all are heart we will find him. The secular moral, communtiy of love you are trying to build is an illusion one that is doom to failure becasue of the pride and greed of mankind. It will be no more successfull for the average Joe or Josphine then it is for them in the secular, athestic, societies of China,Russia,Nazi Germany, Laos-Pol Pot. As history shows us it will fail. You question my bravery sir but I throw the question back at you. When you are brave enough to throw your pride of self away and humble yourself before a Creator God You will also see that He has provide us plenty of evidence for His exisitance. When you are brave enough not to just dabble with Christianty but to explore it with you heart soul and mind and your strength even you will see the Truth and Gods willingness to welcome you back into His family. As a Pastor of mine once said. "if you think this Christian walk is so easy then here-- you carry His Bible and see how easy it is. Are you brave enough. or maybe when our lives end in this world you can ask all those who have died for their belief in a risen Christ how brave they were. maybe this bravery is because they know the Truth, not knew the Truth, but Know the Truth for you see for them they know not the sting of death.
Gods Blessing on your search for the meaning of life
In Christ
Tom
that should be "world"
Tom: Very well. But if you ever find yourself doubting, yet afraid to embrace a rational approach to the objective word, rest assured that morality, community, and love are all available outside the context of religious mythology. If you are brave enough to let go of your presuppositions, you will not be bereft, and you willl not be alone. You will have the benefit of the secular community that is currently being built, and we would welcome you, just as I was welcomed back after beginning an atheist, converting to Christianity, and deconverting. Good luck.
Citizen, You are correct in two things. 1) I have no desire to learn or relearn your methods of debate, It doesn't matter to me. I have found that you all just try and change the rules when things get tough anyway. it becomes more like trying to strain out a gnat but swallowing a camel in the mean time. I prefer to rely on physical truths that I see and feel and are repeatable and verifiable. Christianty is all of that and more. we have million of indivuals who can testify to this truth and are evidence of the love God has showered on us by the death of His Son. Do i understand all of it no. But I dare say neither do you understand all that is in your belief system. 2) As for trying to convince you, ain't happening. The only one who can draw you is God Himself and when or if He does then it is up to you to take off the blinders that the who controls you has slip over your eyes. When you do you will get glimsp of His Truth like you never have before. So sorry Citizen, not to break your heart but i need no convincing any longer. I know where my help comes from.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Tom: We are indeed at a crossroads. I can't force you to understand the difference between objective, scientific evidence, and hearsay, selective bias, logical fallacy, and special pleading, but if you don't, you won't understand how I decide what to accept as likely to be true, and what I regard as baseless. You don't seem to be interested in learning that distinction, which would increase your chances of convincing me. So you have to ask yourself: who are you really trying to convince? Me...or yourself?
Awesom testimony, Tom! Hopefully, you are also sharing that with people around you as well. That is how souls are won! Through love and our testimony! Keep going strong!
Citizen, I"m sorry did I strike a nerve. Let me ask you. Are you the only one that can attack someone personally? As you have done on this post as well as other I have been watching. By your own words you have invalidate your arguements as well. So we are at an cross roads what should we do. You refuse to consider the evidence we have of people being supernaturaly healed, by God which can and has been verified by doctors. You refuse to see the evidence we have of literaly thousand if not tens of thousands if not millions of people whose lives have been radically change because they have seen the evidence for this God. A God who has taken lives with out meaning and changed them into lives that have meaning one worth living. Not one Citizen, not two or three but millions over the course of 2000 years. repeatable and verifiable sir. Your man made rules of logic has tied one of your hands behind your back. Many have been where you are, maybe not as well spoken as you but in the same spot. People like CS Lewis, Josh Mcdowell, Lee Stroble, Augustine and the list goes on and on. repeatable and verifiable. You see I have been healed from alcololism, I have friends who have been healed from drugs addications of all kinds by this same God. repeatable and verifiable. The evidence for this God is overwhelming to those who know where to look and are willing to seek His kingdom. Apparently you are happy to have painted yourself in a corner that is increasenly hard to get out of. Oh well i guess that is free will
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen
Tom: Personal testimony only tells you what a person believes is true, and that is not sufficient to demonstrate that it actually is objectively true. It is entirely possible and indeed probable, that it is the belief in god itself that results in the attribution of the life events to a god, rather than the events themselves being prima facie evidence of a god. You are making the logically fallacious argument ad popularum. You also attack me personally in an attempt to undercut what i've said, committing the fallacious argument ad hominem. These are invalid arguments.
Prophet: Valid scientific experiments don't involve the experimenters themselves. Please study the scientific method.
followstheWAYTRUTHLIFE: So tell me, since jesus is claimed to have said that anyone who calls someone a fool is in danger of hellfire, is the bible going to hell by its own standards, thanks to the verses you quoted?
hey follows! speak it! Oh the power of the Word of God! "it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes."
Rm. 2:14,15 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" God has placed His law in the hearts of all mankind. We either choose to obey and live, or disobey and perish!
Rm 1 (con't) (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imagniations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Ignorance is not evidence for the existence of God. But God has written the knowledge of Himself in the hearts of all men. Rm. 1:19-22 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest (made known) in them ( God's human creations); for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of Him from (since) the creation of the world (earth) are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (Deity); so that they are without excuse:
Very well said, Tom. I had to end the discussion because i felt i was being sucked into that same sarcasm that he was portraying. In the scientific world, if you're doing an experiment and you get a certain result...you usually do it a number of times to make sure it's legitimate and not just some fluke. It's the same thing you said. With the number of people that pray to God and get an answer, common sense would say that there is something legitimate and real going on. But I have a feeling that Citizen attributes it to mass hysteria or mass brainwashing. I dont know. All I know is God is real, and He is perfect, just, loving, and powerful.
Citizen, I have seen your comments and sarcasms over the last few weeks and I wonder some times if your for real. I mean how can someone who claims to be so smart be so well dumb? Are you that prideful so full of yourself that when one pesents personal testimony on what God has done in their life you would deny that this happen to them. Does not science itself demand that for something to be consider true that it needs to be repeatable and verifiable? Thousand upons thousands of people can testify to what God through Jesus Chrsit has done in there lives----repeatable and verifiable. It is a mazing to me how you refuse to want to see the truth. Oh well it isn't called free will for nothing.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
ok
Prophet: Except that belief is based on the argument from incredulity. Just because you can't imagine how your family could have gotten better, doesn't mean the answer is automatically "god" Ignorance is not evidence for the existence of supernatural creator deities.
but you missed my point....i prayed and God answered.
Prophet: You missed my point. You say yourself that your god isn't going to heal if he doesn't want to. So why would prayer matter?
Oh yeah, citizen, THAT'S the power of prayer!
I've wrestled with the healing part of things myself. I've asked questions of many preachers. I believe there are a myriad of reasons why. Everthing from lack of faith to God using their disability for a reason. Just because God doesn't heal an amputee, has nothing to do with the amputee's will. It has everything to do with their want. That person still has the choice on how they will live their life. They still have the choice to follow God or not. They still have the choice to let their situation destroy them or raise them up.
But going back to the healing thing...my wife was a diagnosed suicidal/chronic depressive. She was on prozac for many years (which didnt help). God healed her instantaneously one night at church. She was seen by a number of doctors that said she'd never have kids. She's given birth to two beautiful kids. My daughter was born with ASD ( a hole between the chambers of her heart). At age 5 we were told that since it hadn't closed up that it never would without open heart surgery to fix it. She was healed. My son was diagnosed with ADHD and told he would be on Aderall his whole life, because of the severity. He hasn't taken any in over two years and is doing great. He's actually been on the honor roll most of the 1 1/2 years he's been in junior high. so I know my God heals and delivers.
Prophet: but if 1. Newdow has free will and 2. god's gonna do what god wants (as I am told whenever I ask why god won't heal amputees) then isn't prayer essentially meaningless, even in the christian worldview? It doesn't seem like there is anything it could effect even for a christian.
"For we do not fight against flesh and blood. But we wage war against the rulers, authorities, and powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places". Our battle is a spiritual one.
the only thing about what lex wants to pray for is that God cannot go against Newdow's free will. But we can still pray that God will do something....and prayer has huge impact. especially if the Church joins in agreement.
Lex:what effect would prayer have on the situation?
dongard--thats why I said in my post that America's government will fall. because God is being removed from everything and sin is gaining ground. I saw a website, and i wish i would have bookmarked it, but it had all the past presidents who have referenced God and even quoted scripture in their inaugural speeches, state-of-the-union speeches, news interviews, etc. The number of times was asounding! to say the least. why isn't anyone complaining about that? After all....they are "establishing religion". God forgive me for saying this, but if you don't like the fact that we are trying to keep God in our country...you might want to try another country. There are a number of countries that don't allow God in their country, period! They are called communist. Feel free to move to one of those.
why is it that Christians continuously feel the need to force non-believers to pray to their god. what part of congress shall make no law establishing religion don't you people get?
Check out Jeremiah 20:7-12. Check out www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com.
I like that idea! I mean, I do pray for the lost everyday, but maybe an intercession on their part would do something. Unfortunately, Lex, we are fighting a losing battle. All this must come to pass. Every government will fail, which will usher in the end times. America's government will fail. Just like the Romans...from the cancer eating at it from the inside out. If the terrorists would just be patient, they would realize that they don't have to work so hard to bring us down. We are doing a good enough job by ourselves. But it doesn't mean we don't stop praying and fighting the spiritual battles. We need to continue on the course of righteousness and holiness, regardless of what everyone else is doing. It will be a long, lonely road...but at the end is our reward. Even much of the Church will go astray and follow pleasing words. They will trade His truth for man's lies. But remain faithful. No compormise. Unto death or His return.
I say we start a prayer movement for Newdow to meet the Lord. Let's pray for something dramatic, like Saul getting knocked off his donkey. Partly because nothing else is going to get him to shut up about kicking God out of America, and partly because I shudder to think of him meeting Jesus in his current condition.
How about every weekday morning at about the time your local public school is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? - Take a minute to pray for Newdow's salvation. (I think God enjoys irony.)