Chaplains working in the city police department in Spokane, Wash., will have to remove all crosses from their badges to settle a lawsuit filed by a Christian pastor turned atheist.
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Pastor-Turned-Atheist Forces Police Chaplains to Remove Crosses
By
Sze Leng Chan
Christian Post Correspondent
Sat, Dec. 08 2007 01:54 PM EST
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Comments
Claiming to be an atheist is a farce - http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/atheist.htm
To: He who thinks - I love it when the uninformed open themselves up for correction. Please tell me where in our Constitution does it say anything about separation of Church and state. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... Now my question for you is this. Is there a law that prohibits this mans free speech? If so, who made this law? Was it Congress? If so, wouldnt that be a direct contradiction of the US Constitution? I guess He who thinks would have thought about this before they typed.
If someone sought out the chaplain for spiritual counseling, how are they likey to be offended by the cross? Is an atheist going to seek out a chaplain for spiritual counseling? If I were going to a chaplain, I would want to know what faith they were trained in. If someone of a non-Christian faith goes to a chaplain and is unaware of their teachings, they may allege that the Christian chaplain was attempting to convert them. After all, they could claim they were unaware that the chaplain was a priest, minister, or otherwise affilliated with Christianity.
I applaud the pastor. He finally got it. Separation of Church and State. 1 evangelical down, 99,999,999 to go.
I am disappointed that someone in the police department did not contact THE ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND or the RUTHEFORD INSTITUTE and ask them to come in and defend the city of Spokane. Anyone directly connected with this case can do this. These organizations have been set up to do exactly this. It might not not be to late even now.
Scripture says, "they went out from amongst us, because they were not from us." In the End times, many will be exposed for the false teachers they are by the LIGHT of The LORD! We live in times of ever-increasing wickedness, and as The DAY of the LORD draws closer, the evil deeds are exposed by The LIGHT!!
amen TheWatch! I praise the Lord for the light of His Word! The more I see in this World, the more I draw closer to The LORD not from Him!! I mean look at this world, where would I go; HE is the TRUTH in a very dark and evil place. I praise the LORD that man is NOT the final voice; and praise be to God that JESUS has made a way for HIS children out of this place!
Let the GLORY OF THE LORD fill the earth and may the deeds of man be exposed for what they truly are! JESUS IS LORD! Let's fix our eyes on the LORD and not on any man! HE is the perfector of our Faith! I just finised a great book by Max Lucado 3:16 I highly recommend this book, what a blessing! What JESUS did for mankind, even now as I sit here, amazed at our God, that HE, the Holy One would come down out of Heaven and be born in my world, experience my world, and took my sin, the evil that I had done, upon Himself, and paid a debt that I could never pay. Jesus died for even this man and others like him, who will deny the Sovereign Lord.
Thank you, dear Lord for your unfailing love and grace, and for making a way out of this place, Thank you dear Jesus that in the twinkling of an eye, forever to live in Your embrace!! Hallelu YAH!
Atheism has no arguement. This man was nevere a pastor. You can't belive in God and then not. He never had faith in the first place. Also, atheists are whiny. They complain about everything religious because they fell dead inside.
Left off my final sentence. The only ones who can blaspheme the Holy Spirit are the unsaved, the unregenerated.
Just wanted to say what a pleasure it was to find this forum a few days ago. I have been other places on the net, including you tube, where it seems like a believer is always going upstream in the discussions. I will still go there, there are a few voices in the wilderness there. But it is a pleasure to find a place like this where I feel like I am by and large going downstream with the flow. It's good to read the posts of The Watch, holito 8, et. al. One more thing, there was a discussion here a few ago concerning blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Doesn't blaspheming the Holy Spirit have to do with committing the unpardonable sin? That that is the only way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. In my circles the only way to committ the unpardonable sin is to deny the Holy Spirit's attempt to convict you that the only way to spend eternity with God is to be regenerated through Jesus Christ.
Do Atheists Exist?
http://polemos.net/Do%20Atheists%20Exist.html
A former pastor of the Lutheran association was not a pastor to begin with. If he truly knew the Christ of Calvary, he'd be on his knees weeping!!!
REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
Darwinism and Atheism BOTH ARE among the Dead and Dying Myths of the 21st Century.
Behold the Proof ====>> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
The Watch, excellent words.
I love 2 peter.
If I may add: 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
....."a dog returns to his own vomit and a sow returns to the mud from which it came"
I guess the dog was always secretly a dog while pretending to be something else and the swine was never really clean after being washed and then, true to character, returned to the mud where it is most comfortable! That explains alot. I wonder how many dogs and swines are still with us pretending to be what they are not.
"20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”(2 Peter 2:20-22)
i always saw High Treason against God to be truly unforgiveable
i mean look at Satan, HE was the first to betray God in the highest of manners.
Prophet, I think so. I'll look more into it. Thanks again.
Muggle,
yeah i saw it. to me, that would be just a simple lack of faith. everyone questions from time to time if God really did or can forgive them of something they've done. I have. It doesnt mean i'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I just means I'm weak. and we all get weak from time to time....It's a lack of faith...just as in a lack of faith that "all things work together for good to them who are called according to His purpose."
I think that the unpardonable sin would be something more deliberate instead of something out of weakness. I'm not sure if that helps you any.
Prophet, OK. I think I got it. I wasn't sure if you saw my explanation a few postings down. What I said didn't seem even remotely close to what you said, but I wasn't positive either. This was the way the priest in my parish explained it. He was very patient as I kept elaborating for a good 10 minutes or so making sure I got it right :^)
If you get a chance, look it over and chime in. I'd like to get your feedback on it.
I think its taking an act of the Holy Spirit and saying its the devil. I think the other way around is just being like a false prophet or false signs. I may be wrong. But it must be done with the full knowlege that it really is an act of God...its just that in your rebellion your heart is hardend and you refuse to acknowlege it and even say (knowing in your heart that what you're saying is wrong) that it is of the devil.
I think it's different story if you are unsaved and don't know the difference. It has to be done knowingly.
and is this tainting of our rights something our current golden candidate will exploit to the public and correct properly?
Prophet,
>> Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to attribute an act or a move of the Holy Spirit to a work of Satan. <<
Is it committing an act that is not of God, but claiming it's God's will, or is it claiming that something of God's will is evil? I just want to be clearer on it, and make sure I'm accurate for the future. I'll Google it later ...
BTW, if it's one of those 2, can someone really commit an act on Earth that will never be pardoned by Jesus? Or has it something to do with a hardening of the heart?
I find it difficult to believe that this person was ever a Christian even though he may have gone through the motions of a pastor of the church. He mocks God by pretending to be a Christian and now mocks God further by declaring himself to be an atheist. What he has done will lead astray some people who are weak in the faith. These are the sins he is now guilty of.
It's disturbing to read about something like this, that some of our spiritual leaders may actually be having a silent battle with apostasy while they are preaching. This is a sign of the last days when even the very elect will be deceived. And this poor misguided former pastor has been deceived big time!
Pastors are under attack from the devil and his minions and they need us to pray for them without ceasing!
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to attribute an act or a move of the Holy Spirit to a work of Satan. That is unforgivable.
Was this "Christian pastor turned atheist" ever really a Christian??
amatheson, BTW ... I think your post offered the Biblical interpretation of what I posted about the Seattle Times article.
>> "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 Jn. 2:19) <<
Thank you for that. It sums it up. :^)
charles, HyperionOverseer,
The way I understand it, or rather the way is was explained to me, is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is actually a perpetual sin. It's not something that can be committed once, with no hope of redemption, if the offender wishes to repent.
Remember recently, there was a (I don't know what else to call it) "dare" called the Atheist Challenge? Atheists videotaped themselves announcing that they "deny the Holy Spirit", essentially trying to score some shock value from Christians by posting themselves on 'YouTube', because they don't believe in God, anyway. It's just another example of how dishonest skeptics hear of something in the Bible and completely misinterpret it for their own twisted agenda.
The UNFORGIVABLE SIN is the belief that God cannot forgive something you've done, or said, or that He can't help you. But God can do anything. To believe that God can't forgive you for ANYTHING you've done is the ultimate arrogance, and an insult to God. It infers that Christ's death on the cross was somehow incomplete. The insidiousness of this is that these people usually keep believing it until they die, and are eternally lost, because they won't even inquire about it with their pastor or with other Christians.
charles, I think you're right about only Christians being able to commit this sin, because to deny God's power in this context, they have to know the tenants of Christianity and believe in the Trinity.
The GOOD NEWS ... for anyone reading this who thinks (or knows) you have committed this sin, unless you're dead, as I'm writing this, as you're reading this, unless you're lying in the ground, in a silk-lined polished box, covered with dirt ...
It's NOT TOO LATE for you. Repent of this right now. Know in your heart that ALL things are possible with God. Repent of this sin and ask forgiveness and you can break this curse.
God loves you. Spit out your pride and love Him too.
HyperionOverseer, The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If he did this, only GOD knows. Lets pray for his salvation. P.S. I believe only a Christian can commit this sin. If he wasn't a Christian the he didn't.
Our problem is that we allowed our country's amendments to be changed to mean something they don't and our laws to be re-written in favor of some special interest groups. Every time a new bill is introduced, the real goal needs to be discovered. We, as Christians need to be very alert. If you don't believe this, go back to when these groups changed the laws and see for yourself. We do make a difference if we are informed and vote our conscience. The Lord told us to be alert. Now they want to change the bible! What next? Hate sin, not the sinner but love the Lord above all. I know you all have more to add to this and I pray we learn precisely what the Lord wants us to and go forth with the truth of His word.
NOW THIS PEOPLE
is the unforgiveable sin!
But the question is, is the unforgiveable sin a one way ticket to hell?
I would wonder more why this man turned from Christ to embrace a destiny of nothingness. To venture to guess ... he fervently went through the motions, but never really understood what being a child of God (or having real faith for that matter) is really about.
The following link is to a Seattle Times article interviewing another pastor->atheist, Dan Barker. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004001181_preacher08m.html
Ideus is mentioned briefly, but Barker is the main focus. I think this is relevant, because I suspect this is typical of someone who tried to follow Jesus as a "religion", and not a "Savior".
Note the lines below from paragraphs 8, 9 and 11 respectively, which would at least SEEM to support my speculation.
>> it's about "unjoining religion and becoming your own person. <<
In other words ... NOT a servant of God. Perhaps he never really was.
>> he came to believe that one doesn't need faith in order to do good in the world <<
Sure, that's true ... but then all good experiences end with the world, and no one will enter Heaven by works.
>> We don't need salvation because we're not sinners in the first place. <<
I think this was the nail in the coffin -- pun intended. These are not the words of someone who really understood who Christ is, and why HE came.
Keith Green! One of the greatest (if not "the" greatest) musical prophet of our time. I've known no one who's shaken up the church like he did.
And God bless Jay Sekulow and the ACLJ! I'm sure he'll hear about this and get something going. Right now I think he's got a big group working on the Israel/Palestine conference.
I wore a cross on my Army Uniform for my entire career as an Army Chaplain, now I am retired.
Chaplains do not wear a cross because the government endorses any faith. They wear them to identify themselves as to which faith group they represent. Chaplain's in the military represent the faith group that that endorses them. The people we serve have the right to know what kind of clergy we are.
The 1st Amendment needs of the prisoner and police officer have priority over the needs of the state or the atheist. Prisoners and policemen cannot just walk away to worship anytime they want. They often face dangerous and stressful circumstances. The presence of a Chaplain with the symbols of his/her faith is a powerful comfort to those in need.
The American Center for Law and Justice, the Alliance Defense Fund, the Chaplains, and police department should stand up to this challenger. This fight has been fought before and won, and can be won again. The Chaplaincy; military, law enforcement, corrections, school, hospital, and corporate, must defend their right to self-identity. They must fight to keep the rights of the people they serve who are greatly controlled by the institutions in which they find themselves. They are the majority, and they have a right to worship and practice their faith within the confines of these institutions.
The soldier, the prisoner, then employee, the student, the police officer, and the hospital patient should not have to check his or her 1st Amendment right to practice their faith just because they are forced to deal with an institution that is tax funded.
Let each chaplain wear the symbol of the faith they represent, they have the right and the obligation to do so. The people they serve have a right to know who they represent in case they do, or do not want their services.
Keith Green once quipped, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."
You can even flip the burgers, and it still doesn't make you a hamburger!
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 Jn. 2:19)
Yes, and this goes against the First Amendment.
Very, very sad.