As more atheist-centered books and movies make their way to mainstream culture, two best-selling Christian apologists are encouraging churches to better equip their congregation to respond to what they call a more outspoken and "confident" atheism.
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Apologists Ask Churches to Step Up Response to Militant Atheism
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Feb. 13 2008 03:35 PM EST
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To agentorange20 re: stars
"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and a kings to seek it out." Proverbs 25:2
What eternal significance does the details of stars have? If the Bible described in detail the reason for & process of how they were formed....many would still choose to not-believe. JMO, but when the Bible is silent on a matter I believe that God gives us the joy to find out ourselves.
agentorange
You will never find what you are looking for in life until you find Jesus.
The Bible is not a science book. However, the science mentioned in it is accurate. The Bible got it right long before mankind ever did.
Star,
"Statements Consistent With Astronomy"
No offense, but you need to learn to think a little more critically.
Star, the bibles mentioning of stars is nothing of importance, for all it tells us is something that is quite obviuos - that they indeed plentiful. Wow, big woop. we would know that regardless if the bible pointed it out, which means the bible pointing it out doesn't mean it's refering to hidden science secrets, rather it is refering to the obvoius....which is quite pathetic.
The bible doesn't describe the details on stars. It doesn't explain how they form, why they shine, what sort of processes do they undergo and what types of energy is emitted from them ,etc. The bible is absent in this regard, but was able to make the obvious distinction claim that indeed 'there are lots of them', which really is pointless. Saying there are lots of stars answers nothing, it returns nothing. It's like stating water is wet. It's not a science revelation,. If the bible had the processes of how stars worked, I'd be impressed as this would be geniune knowlede no one at that time could have possibly known and it would givem some cred to your bible, howerver it doesn't so it has no authority in the matter.
From Indonesia,
Jakarta- 5 October 1965, the day of the dead generals funeral procession, a military propaganda campaign began to sweep the country. Both Indonesian and internationals saw that it was an atheist communist coup, and that the murders were cowardly atrocities against Indonesian heroes. PKI denials of involvement had little effect. The atheist communist party and its alleged front groups were banned. Indonesian army, acting on orders by Suharto began a campaign of agitation and incitement to violence among Indonesian civilians aimed not only at atheist communists but the ethnic Chinese community and toward President Sukarno himself. Leading PKI members were immediately arrested, some summarily executed.
The anti atheist communist purge quickly spread from Jakarta to the rest of the country, the worst massacres of known, suspected, and simply alleged atheist communists, were in Java and Bali where PKI support was at its strongest. The situation varied across the country, in some areas the army organized civilian groups and local militias, in other areas communal vigilante action preceded the army. For many youths, killing atheist communists became a religious duty. Muslims in Java and Sumatra but also Christians and Catholic students in the Yogyakarta region and Hindus in Bali took part in the massacres. Though most suspects were identified by locals, the CIA supplied the Indonesian military with lists of suspected atheist communists.
Between 300,000 and one million atheist communist were killed in the mass killings following the arrest of PKI members in Sukarno cabinet on October 6, 1965. Ironically, a CIA study of the events in Indonesia assessed that in terms of the numbers killed, the anti PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century. Many others were also imprisoned and for the next ten years people were still being imprisoned as suspects. It is thought that as many as 1.5 million was imprisoned at one stage or another.
Indonesian today are still on the look out for more atheist communist to kill.
Here are some of the science facts in the Bible,
Taken from www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
Part 1:
Statements Consistent With Astronomy
The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.
Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”
The Bible also says that each star is unique.
1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
All stars look alike to the naked eye. Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.
The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
Here are some of the science facts in the Bible,
Taken from www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
Part 2
Statements Consistent With Meteorology
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
Job 28:25
To make the weight for the wind, And he weigheth the waters by measure.
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.
Here are some of the science facts in the Bible,
Taken from www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
Part 3
Statements of Biological Health
It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health. The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.
Proverbs 12:4
An virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
Proverbs 14:30
A sound heart is life of the body: but envy the rottenness of the bones.
Proverbs 15:30
The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart, and a good report maketh the bones fat.
Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and health to the bones.
Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good, like medicine, But a broken spirit drieth the bones.
citsogna
Here are some of the science facts in the Bible,
Taken from www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
Part 4
Statements Consistent With Anthropology
We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.
Job 30:5,6
5 They were driven forth among men, (they cried after them as after a thief;)
6 To dwell in the cliffs of the valley, in caves of the earth, and in the rocks.
Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth.
Here are some of the science facts in the Bible:
Taken from www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
Part 5
Statements Consistent With Hydrology
The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.
Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.
Jeremiah 10:13
When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, bringeth forth the wind out of His treasuries.
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.
Job 36:27-29
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreading of clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.
The Bible describes the recirculation of water.
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds.
Job 26:8
He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
I just wonder what dark matter looks like, for it to cause what it does.
agentorange
Let's meet tomorrow sometime. Let me know when you think you can be here. If you for some reason can't meet tomorrow, then let me know when. I want to talk about cosmology, if that would be OK with you.
Prophet
agentorange knows what he is talking about in regard to dark matter and dark energy. Go to this NASA link and read about irt: http://hubblesite.org/
sorry orange. I thought that I had told you about what happened to my family. I've posted it on so many threads that I forget who's seen it.
My wife was chronic depressive/suicidal. She was on prozac which didn't help. God healed her instantaneously.
She was also told she'd never be able to have kids. We have two wonderful children.
My daughter was born with ASD (a hole between the chambers of her heart), doctors said the only option was open heart surgery. God healed her instead.
My son had ADHD, and doctors said he would be on meds his whole life, and would struggle to make it through school. He was held back in first grade because of it. God healed him, and has been off his meds for years now. He's in 8th grade and has been on the honor roll for almost the entire 2 years.
That's my evidence.
I did give you evidence. But you flatly rejected it. You have no interest in the truth.
The power of God is incorporated to explain why people are miraculously healed and delivered. There must be something there, its called indirect observation.
See how silly that sounds? Almost as silly as dark matter.
And yet, God still heals...whether you believe in Him. His existence doesn't rely on your belief (or lack thereof). He existed before you were born, and He will exist after you die.
"LOL, now who's believing in fairytales. Instantaneous healing is not a placebo. No matter how you try to explain it away, you can't hide the truth."
Why don't you support it with actualy evidence, then we will see.
"Dark matter is merely science's attempt to explain a phenomena that they can't explain."
No, they incorporate dark matter to explain why galaxies are spinning at their speed and haven't flung apart yet, thus something must be there and this is called indirect observation, the same type of indirect observation that is used to identify atoms in particle physics. go read a book on dark matter and quit displaying your flat earther views.
DARWINISM and ATHEISM: UNSCIENTIFIC & MYTHICAL
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
agentorange
I will be back tomorrow.
Dark matter is merely science's attempt to explain a phenomena that they can't explain.
Orange,
LOL, now who's believing in fairytales. Instantaneous healing is not a placebo. No matter how you try to explain it away, you can't hide the truth.
"Yep. And it's that faith and logic that healed my wife, daughter, and son...when science was at a loss."
It appears you've never heard of the placebo affect either than hmmm? okay...
"Kinda like dark matter,eh."
No, not really. We can indirectly observe dark matter just like we can indirectly observe atoms. We've never directly observed either, yet you'd feel quite foolish saying it takes faith to believe in atomic theory right? Same goes for dark matter.
orange,
"no ryme, no reason, no matter, just have faith in the super natural. nice logic." Yep. And it's that faith and logic that healed my wife, daughter, and son...when science was at a loss.
Kinda like dark matter,eh.
Prophet,
You rely on the supernatural b/c that's all you have to explain it away. no ryme, no reason, no matter, just have faith in the super natural. nice logic.
Orange takes the supernatural out of the equation. The flood was, afterall, a supernatural event. And people lived hundreds and hundreds of years back then. And people had more children back then too. And orange's opinion on the infant mortality rate of the time is just that. Opinion. It is not beyond God's ability to replenish the earth from 6 people in a thousand years.
agentorange
I need to go. I will talk some more with you tomorrow evening.
agentorange
Re: He just assumed all couples would all have 8 kids and they'd all surivve to reproduction age, but that too isn't conservative at all as most kids used to die in their first few years of life from diseases, malnutrition and so on.
God allowed rapid population growth in the beginning in order to quickly repopulate the earth.
Genesis 9:1
"And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth."
Genesis 9:7
And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."
Re:Re:Famines occur which limit population growth and population limit, something he toally ignored.
Again I said earlier, "If the population continued to increase in the manner mentioned above, then we would have a much larger population today than we have. War, famine, natural disaters, diseases, etc contibutes to keeping the population growth down.
God changes things as they need to be changed.
Right, he only addressed the first 1000 years, while ignoring that sort of growth rate is un heard of even now. He just makes it up with not evidence at all to back it. Famines occur which limit population growth and population limit, something he toally ignored. He just assumed all couples would all have 8 kids and they'd all surivve to reproduction age, but that too isn't conservative at all as most kids used to die in their first few years of life from diseases, malnutrition and so on.
agentorange
Get real again.He was only addressing the first 1000 year period after the flood. All your objections are invalid.
star2,
You can't honestly take the bible seriously with respect to science, can you? It might say god created all these things, but that is mere hearsay.I mean think of how many times it's been utterly wrong with regards to science accuracy. That alone tells you who wrote it and how utterly ignorant sand nomands were so long ago.
agentorange
Get real.
star, remember how you used a very, very concervative annual growth rate of .5% going from the 6 to 6 billion over said years? Well, if you'd paid attention Prophet's figures are no where NEAR that figure.
star2,
Hello, earth to star, his figures only accounted for the 2 million jews and didn't account for the rest of the world which would have certainly been larger.
agentorange
Re:For arguements sake, let say you god poofed the first life forms of bacteria here 3.85 billion years ago just like the records show.
No record shows that the first life forms of bacteria were either poofed here by god or was brought here by a comet, an intelligent alien or any other method.
God Word, which is His record, says He created the heavens and the earth. He created everything in a short span of time. He created each life form (plant and animal) after its own kind and in its mature state. He created light, He created darkness. He created our moon and our sun. He created the stars, the galaxies, the dark matter and everything we observe in the universe. God is the creator of all things.
agentorange
Part 1
Re: Population Growth
Again you misunderstood the intent of my approach to proving that it is possible for 6 people (3 couples) repopulating the Earth in approximately 4344 yrs with an average annual growth rate that took into consideration famine, wars, natural diasters, etc.. The approach never intended to show what populations would be at different intervals of time. Average annual growth rate is just what its name implies; average. You know that average doesn't mean actual. Some time periods are going to be greater than the average and some will be less, and some will be close to the actual average number used. Again, the approach was used only to show that it was possible; nothing more and nothing less.
To try to prove me wrong using my approach is nothing but a smokescreen to cover the fact that you are wrong that 8 people cannot repopulate the earth nearly 4344 yrs ago.
agentorange
Part 2
Prophet showed how it was possbile to have a large population growth from the 3 couples God used to repopulate the earth after the flood. The numbers are reasonable and addresses your concern about the nearly 2 millions Jews that left Egypt in the exodus.
Here is his posting:
I know that the only way you will think my numbers are realistic is if they agree with you, but here you go:
Okay. 3 couples, 6 people, at 100 years of age, average lifespan 300 years, average birth rate 3male/3female, generation is 100 years. The original 3 couples give birth to 2nd generation at 15 years (since Noahs sons probably started procreating immediately after the flood)
15 years: 6 people (3 couples) with 18 offspring=24 population
100 years: 6 people 1st generation
18 2nd generation (9 couples) with 54 offspring=78 population
200 years 1st generation dies off
18 2nd generation
54 3rd generation (27 couples) with 162 offspring=234 population
300 years 2nd generation dies
54 3rd
162 4th generation (81 couples) with 486offspring=702 population
400 years 3rd generation dies
162 4th
486 5th generation (243 couples) with 1458 offspring=2106 pop
500 years 4th gen dies
486 5th
1458 6th gen (729 couples) with 4374 offspring=6318 pop
600 years 5th gen dies
1458 6th
4374 7th gen (2187 couples) with 13,122 offspring=18,954 pop
700 years 6th gen dies
4374 7th
13,122 8th gen (6561 couples) with 39,366 offspring=56,862 pop
800 years 7th gen dies
13,122 8th
39,366 9th gen (19,683 couple) with 118,098 offspring=170,586 pop
900 years 8th gen dies
39,366 9th
118,098 10th gen (59,059 couples) with 354,294 offspring=511758 pop
1000 years 9th gen dies
118,098 10th
354,294 11th gen (177,147 couples) with 1,062,882 offspring=1,535,274 pop
Lifespan, number of children per family are very consistent with the numbers given in the Bible...acutally probably a little too conservative.
If the population continued to increase in the manner mentioned above, then we would have a muvh larger population today than we have. War, famine, natural disaters, diseases, etc contibutes to keeping the population growth down.
You have no real argument to disprove the Bible. You are nothing more than empty talk.
star2,
For arguements sake, let say you god poofed the first life forms of bacteria here 3.85 billion years ago just like the records show. Now that we've settled that what evolved to what and how is what evolution attempts to understand and that's all we should be talking about in the first place.
What is mathimatically impossible about life forming under certain chemical bonds? Did you even bother to read what I replied to Chris with? Had you, you see molecules dont work according to pure randomness, but rather work according to the 4 known fundimental forces. This is something even Hoyle didn't account for.
agentorange
I am sorry; it is a waste of time to even consider the 'evolution of life' when it is mathematically impossible for life to have ever came into existence to begin with.
star2,
Well, instead of bouncing around, why don't you actually address Evolution (change over time) instead of going after Abiogensis (how life arose) which doesn't negate evolution occuring in the first place. You're the one that can't differentiate between the two, I don't need to mention as you looking foolish.
agentorange
You are foolish.
“How life began is important to evolution. If it cannot begin in the first place then it can never develop. You need to face that reality.”
Star, these are different realms of Science, and evolution deals with the process of living stuff, while abgiogenesis deals with the non living stuff becoming livings stuff. How does the methods by which life got here in any way negate evolution occurring? Easy, they don’t. Your god could have just as easily poofed life here and yet we’d still be here talking about evolution aka life changing over time. HOW life got started doesn’t negate what occurs after life exists….I don’t know how you can’t comprehend this.
Star, do the methods (planes, trains, automobile, boat, etc.) by which a musical band gets to a concert impact if they play their music later? No, they don’t, any of the means of transportation would suffice and none would negate their music playing once at the hall. And neither do the methods by which how life arose negate what happens latter once it exists.
agentorange
Re: abiogenesis and evolution
How life began is important to evolution. If it cannot begin in the first place then it can never develop. You need to face that reality.
“Macro evolution has never been observed in nature nor in the lab. What scientists have observed is micro evolution. Scientists have never seen in the lab one species transform or cross the species level barrier. “
Note to star, macro evolution is denoted as evolution AT OR ABOVE the species level barrier. If you want countless examples of this just Google ‘observed speciation’. Remember some weeks ago when I held your hand and pointed out those 30 + recorded instances of macroevolution?
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
“If a significant mutation occured that would cause, if it were even possible and it is not, a species to cross over the species level barrier, that mutation would kill the species specimen (new life form).”
Hey star, mutations do occur, and if they are too much of a change they generally kill the host species spot on as its under meiosis so the species wouldn’t even be born in the first place. However, mutations (deletions, translocations, inversions, duplications, and FUSIONS) have been observed in the lab and the species under these can be born and show no ill affects.
“Mutations (malfunctions) don't make a product new and better, it weakens it.”
Not really. The DNA copying and duplication process although impressive is hardly perfect, these inperfections are mutations. The vast majority of generational mutations are neutral; while around 1% are harmful and about .28% are beneficial, at least in our species. Why do you think only certain segments of our human population have lactose tolerance to consume milk, while most don't? Here’s a hint…’herding cattle in the past’. All that from a simple gene mutation, that we can identify in our genomes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
Here’s another mutation in our species that wasn’t harmful at all.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm
Assuming you’re White, your skin too is the result of a gene mutation. Male pattern baldness, freckles, and so on are regular genetic mutations that weren’t harmful at all
“God created dark matter and he created light.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form light, and create darkness: I make peace and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things."
Way to twist the words out of context star, I wasn’t born yesterday. That verse is regarding dualism, such as principles of good and evil symbolized as ‘light vs dark’ and Isiah is indicated god created both good and bad things and not reflective matter (stars) and hidden matter (dark matter).
“However, it is impossible for life to even begin so it is futile to even think about how it would developed.”
Star, do you understand what a logical fallacy is? With regards to evolution, it makes no difference how it began or started, we know it began somehow b/c we are here talking about it! Like I’ve said 1000 times now, HOW life got started doesn’t negate what occurs later once life exists, and with Evolution we are talking about what occurs once life exists and not how it started. Now that you perhaps know the difference quit building logical false strawmen arguments so I don’t have to repeatedly burn them down.
“If it is impossible for the building blocks of life to come into existence in the first place then any life that could come from it would also be impossible.”
Ok, once again the communication barrier breaks down. Star, your statement above is about Abiogenesis, or’ how life arose’ and not on ‘how life changes over time’ aka evolution. Look star, regardless if your Abrahamic god poofed life into action, or if aliens engineered it left it here, or if it arose naturally via chemical bonding processes doesn’t negate what occurs afterwards once the life exists. Evolution only deals with life changing over time and not non life somehow resulting in life (Abiogenesis).
We’re talking about evolution and it deals with life that already exists, please try to comprehend the difference and why ‘how life got here’ is a non factor regarding if life changes over time’.
agentorange
Re: light and dark matter
God created dark matter and he created light.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
agentorange
Re:Seems to me you’re implying Isaiah indicates such things are part of our atmosphere. Did I misunderstand or misread this?
“Isaiah 45:12”
Yes, you did.
agentorange
Re: macro-evolution is defined as ‘speciation’ or evolution at or above the species level barrier. We’ve observed this many times and documented this countless times.
Macro evolution has never been observed in nature nor in the lab. What scientists have observed is micro evolution. Scientists have never seen in the lab one species transform or cross the species level barrier. They have only observed genetic driftings within a species as climate changes, radiation affects, diet, and other influences have affected the genes. If a significant mutation occured that would cause, if it were even possible and it is not, a species to cross over the species level barrier, that mutation would kill the species specimen (new life form).
Mutations (malfunctions) don't make a product new and better, it weakens it.
agentorange
Re: What evolution is.
I read about what is refered to as evoultion. Yes, I would agree with you in regard to your definition.
However, it is impossible for life to even begin so it is futile to even think about how it would developed.
Re:Give me an example of something that is evolutionarily impossible.
If it is impossible for the building blocks of life to come into existence in the first place then any life that could come from it would also be impossible.
If you want to apply evolutionary thought to how all the different life forms came into being then you are going to have to explain how the building blocks of life just "poofed" into existence. Remember, it is mathematically impossible for it to randomly come into existence. If you don't think that it is impossible then mathematically prove that it can. No cop-outs about you don't deal with that. Evolution depends on simple life coming into existence. If simple life can't happen then neither can evolution.
Prophet
agentorange is right here about dark matter. Google search it and you will see.
Prophet,
Do you know why 'Dark Matter' is even used for cosmology? I don’t mean to call you a ‘flat earther’ but that is awfully how you come across as it is apparent you don't follow science at all to distinguish why its relevance is. Instead, you think it's something they just made up, as if there is no evidence at all for it. Too bad for you, you're wrong - again.
We can't see it directly, but we can't see individual atoms directly either. And yet that same atomic theory in which we can’t directly observe atoms is what is used along with Physics to build nuclear power plants and nuclear bombs which demonstrates although we don't know 100% about them, our understanding about them is sufficient to create power. lol back at ya buddy!
However, with atoms and dark matter we can indirectly observe their nature and their forces and yet using them provides a greater understanding to the mechanics and true nature of our universe.
Dark Matter
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gCgTJ6ID6ZA
dark matter...lol. A scientific fable that they created to explain something they couldn't explain. And you call Christians dumb for believing in what can't be seen.
Star,
“So prove to me mathematically that evolution can happen. No cop-outs with the statements you made in the past that you don't deal with abiogensis.”
Evolution DOESN’T deal with origins of life, how hard is that to comprehend? I explained many of the facets involved in evolution regarding genetic drifting and natural selection, perhaps you should read a book on biology and genetics before declaring something as mathematically impossible. Give me an example of something that is evolutionarily impossible. Be careful Star, all the instances that ID proponents have brought on using Irreducible Complexity were shot down in Dover in 2005.
How about you first explain the evidence of human chromosome 2 fusion. Like I said, one thing at a time, lets be thorough and methodical.
Star,
“The can see micro evolution happen but they have never observed nor will they ever observe macro evolution. The laws of genetics will never allow it.”
Note to Star, macro-evolution is defined as ‘speciation’ or evolution at or above the species level barrier. We’ve observed this many times and documented this countless times. Star, not too long ago creationists used to say micro evolution wasn’t possible and after being proven wrong now say only macro evolution is impossible. Moving the goal posts like this isn’t a way to win an argument. WHAT laws of genetics are you talking about?
“Let us look at the odds of one protein molecule being created by chance. I have heard that a single protein molecule is made up of it 20 amino acids. If that is the case, then the odds that a single protein molecule can form from a random combination of the amino acids is 1 in n! “
Another note to star, Abiogenesis ISN’T what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about human chromosome 2 as it relates to Evolution, which is an entirely independent science all together. Do try to stay on a topic and address it accordingly as opposed to jumping all over the place and not addressing anything.
On a side note, chemicals do not act purely random, they work according to their chemical bonding that works according to fundamental laws. Rather than reposting this ALL over again, I will link you to the response I gave to Chris33 in which he too thinks chemicals work purely randomly.
www.christianpost.com/article/20080212/31166_Fla._School_Board_Set_to_Vote_on_New_Standards_for_Teaching_Evolution.htm
"As complex even the simplest form of life is, the odds that it can happen by chance is so astronomically small that the chance of that happening is zero."
Star this is abiogensis again, not evolution. understand the difference already. Like I've said a 100 times already, regardless of how life got here, once it's here it evolves. HOW life got here doesn't negate life evolving afterwards, what can't you comprehend there?
“I never said that stars, dark matter and galaxies were a part of our atmosphere.”
Ok, but here’s what you wrote earlier.
“Also, from Genesis 1, we know that the earth was the center of creation. The atmosphere that surrounded the Earth God said that He stretched it out like a curtain and created the hosts (planets, stars, galaxies, dark matter and all that is in the universe) in it. (Isaiah 40:22, 45:12, 45:18)”
Seems to me you’re implying Isaiah indicates such things are part of our atmosphere. Did I misunderstand or misread this?
“Isaiah 45:12”
That’s nice star, but this doesn’t cancel out all those scientific errors it contains either. Perhaps this is the result of being written by men, who knows.
“Prove to me mathematically that a population that starts out with only 3 pairs of couples nearly 4344 yrs ago could not repopulate the earth to the present 6.8 billion people.”
Didn’t I already show you the parts in your very own book (Exodus and Numbers) where it records 2 million Jews and this is only 1012 years post flood and it doesn’t account for the rest of the world’s population which would have certainly been much larger than 2 million.
All you did is used today’s population and the assumed starting population of 6 and devised an annual steady growth rate. It totally ignores that most of the population growth as occurred since 1840’s which resulted from the Industrial Revolution. Prior to that population growth rates were much, much slower as they were limited due to resource constraints, thus why all the famines occurred that Prophet also ignored.
agentorange
Evolutionists have no proof that one life form evolved into an entirely different life form. The can see micro evolution happen but they have never observed nor will they ever observe macro evolution. The laws of genetics will never allow it.
Mathematically it is impossible for life to emerge from a common gene pool or a bunch of chemicals or whatever explanation evolutionists come up with.
Let us look at the odds of one protein molecule being created by chance. I have heard that a single protein molecule is made up of it 20 amino acids. If that is the case, then the odds that a single protein molecule can form from a random combination of the amino acids is 1 in n!
1 in 20! is 1 in 2,432,902,008,176,640,000 or approximatelly 1 in 2.4 x 10^18. There is a 4.2 x 10^-17 % chance that the 20 amino acids will come together to form a single protein molecule. That is 0.000000000000000042 % chance that just one protein molecule can form by chance.That, for all practical purposes is zero. It is even worse than that because I only consider the 20 amino acids and not the other stuff that makes up a single protein molecule.
As complex even the simplest form of life is, the odds that it can happen by chance is so astronomically small that the chance of that happening is zero.
Evolution just cannot produce the diverse forms of life we see today. It is mathematically impossible.
No doubt you diagree. So prove to me mathematically that evolution can happen. No cop-outs with the statements you made in the past that you don't deal with abiogensis.
agentorange
Re“Assuming ideal conditions, you cannot deny the fact that population growth is exponential.”
Note to star, ideal conditions NEVER happen as a result of how the weather changes and how it impacts food production, access to clean water, etc. If ‘ideal’ conditoins were the norm, we wouldn’t have huge records of famines that last for many years and decades now would we?
But we do have such records, so obviously no ideal conditions ever existed.
You totally missed the point of my illustration, a result of your knee jerk reactions to anything that goes against what you want to believe, your faith in a theory that hold no water.
I don't want any of your subjectives opinions as to how fast or slow a population can grow. Prove to me mathematically that a population that starts out with only 3 pairs of couples nearly 4344 yrs ago could not repopulate the earth to the present 6.8 billion people.
agentorange
Re: I said - ”Also, from Genesis 1, we know that the earth was the center of creation.The atmosphere that surrounded the Earth God said that He stretched it out like a curtain and created the hosts (planets, stars, galaxies, dark matter and all that is in the universe) in it. (Isaiah 40:22, 45:12, 45:18)”
Re: your response - Note to star, the earth isn’t the center of the Universe! Nor are stars, dark matter and galaxies a part of our atmosphere!
I never said that stars, dark matter and galaxies were a part of our atmosphere. Your knee jerk reaction to any mention of God has caused you to make an incorrect conclusion to what I said. I said that as God stretched out the atmosphere or the firament above the earth He commanded (created, spoke into existence) all the host (stars, galaxies, dark matter, etc.) in it.
Isaiah 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."
Isaiah 45:12
"I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."
“The chromosomes are similar but not identical in the Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan.”
The reason why each of these apes have unique genes in these 2 chromosomes, and any other chromosomes, is because since their divergence from their common ancestor they have undergone their own unique mutations and genetic diversity based on population sizes, reproduction rates, etc.
Regardless, genetically speaking Chimps are more similar to us Sapiens then they are to Gorillas. You might think Chimps and Bonobos are just animals, but their level of intelligence is quite remarkable.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zd_QZf8vWhc
“The chromosomes are similar but not identical in the Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan.”
Right I agree. Perhaps I worded it wrong, so I take responsibility.
The exact chromosomes in each of those species genomes (the apes) are the same pair that can be referenced against our human chromosome 2; these 2 chromosomes in all apes, and our 2nd chromosome have identical protein banding patterns(genetic homology) and are nearly identical in their composition.
agentorange
Re:Here watch Phd Ken Miller, who’s a Catholic
I am not impressed that he is a Catholic. He is nothing more than a deceived heretic.
agentorange
Re:these 2 identical chromosomes don’t only exist in the Chimps, but are in fact found in all Great Apes (Chimps, Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan,).
The chromosomes are similar but not identical in the Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan.
Star,
“You are very wrong on this one. Every source I have read said that they each have 24 chromosomes. Never once did they say that any of their chromosomes were fused together.”
Where am I wrong star? We homo sapiens have 23 pairs of chromosomes, while all those other apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes.
So the idea goes, *if evolution is true* (in other words a scientific prediction) we should find evidence of WHERE this other pair of chromosomes went or what happened to them. If we can't account for them somehow then evolution and common ancesrty is wrong. Shorlty after mapping he human and chimps genomes though we found where that other pair of chromosomes went.
And we can see what happened to it by analyzing our 2nd chromosome which is a nearly identical match to 2 of the pairs of chromosomes all those great apes have.
Here watch Phd Ken Miller, who’s a Catholic by the way, described the evidence here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
agentorange
Re:these 2 identical chromosomes don’t only exist in the Chimps, but are in fact found in all Great Apes (Chimps, Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan,).
You are very wrong on this one. Every source I have read said that they each have 24 chromosomes. Never once did they say that any of their chromosomes were fused together.
Star,
“Re: Human 2 Chromosome Fusion
It has nothing to do with the chimp. It has everything to do with God.”
No offense, but I see you praying and talking with god hasn’t paid off much for an answer on the human chromosome 2 fusion evidence.
Perhaps you should do what us sciency types do and actually research and read to find answers. Another side note star, these 2 identical chromosomes don’t only exist in the Chimps, but are in fact found in all Great Apes (Chimps, Bonobos, Gorilla, Orangutan,).
Star,
"Re: cosmology and astronomy
You do not know what you are talking about."
No disrepect, bu I think it is you,k with regards to science who hasn't a clue and don't know what you're talking about. In fact I showed that quite readily in how our atmosphere doesn't contain stars, galaxies, and all the other things you got from your holy book. Here, grab your books and go to school, here is why the earth and universe certainly aren't 6000 years young.
Why Young Earth Creationists Must Deny Gravity, Part I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bRvt0InhYk
Why Young Earth Creationists Must Deny Gravity, Part II
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEW1oQBZu-I
Now, try to read, research and understand the evidence, principles and data in those and rebut those. good luck.
Prophet,
“I do know some about science. But, more importantly, maybe you should familiarize yourself with the One who created the laws of the universe and of science”
Well, I might be more inclined to accept your holy text at all or above all others if it showed it conformed to the scientific data and evidence we have, but it doesn’t. The bible says ‘the earth moveth not’, and yet it certainly moves, along with many, many other science blunders. Why would I or anyone take a 3000 year old books word on science matters over that of today’s? That is entirely illogical.
“Then maybe you'd realize that He is not bound by those laws. If God wanted people to reproduce like rabbits after the flood, so be it.“
Ya says the guy who also retorts that ‘god works in mysterious ways’ when his praying does nothing. Your own book says nothing of god poofing people post flood, get a clue. Try to quit deluding yourself and rationalizing mistakes in sake of a belief without evidence and I’d take you more seriously.
“If He wanted to even create more people after the flood, so be it.”
According to you he may have wanted to, but didn’t, so it doesn’t matter in retrospect now does it? You earlier tried to rationalize that famines never or rarel occurred and so you thought it was possible for such populations to grow so dramatically in the past. The facts I presented regarding those famines say otherwise and shows that food supplies were anything but plentiful and further shows how carrying capacity limits growth. Go ahead, rationalize and throw in some more miracles just to make it all work out. anything but admitting you were wrong and the earth/universe aren't 6000 years old.
agentorange
Re: cosmology and astronomy
You do not know what you are talking about.
Re: Human 2 Chromosome Fusion
It has nothing to do with the chimp. It has everything to do with God.
I will tell you why later.
orange,
You said "I used science to show WHY the population figures star gave don’t work and why you too were equally wrong by ignoring all those famines, carrying capacity."
And I used God to show why science is not the answer to everything.
I do know some about science. But, more importantly, maybe you should familiarize yourself with the One who created the laws of the universe and of science. Then maybe you'd realize that He is not bound by those laws. If God wanted people to reproduce like rabbits after the flood, so be it. If He wanted to even create more people after the flood, so be it.
Modern science told my wife that she would be chronic depressive and suicidal her whole life. That she'd be on meds her whole life. Well, my God designed the human body. And since He designed the human body, He can fix whatever may be wrong. So He did. What science said couldn't be done, God did. That is the truth I live and preach.
"If you don't believe in God....what are you doing here"
Easy, trying to explain the particulars in Science (evolution, geology, cosmology, etc.) so those that use their fruits yet discredit them can see how hypocritical they indeed are (yes star I am talking about you) and how science, particularly by the religious is viewed with a jaded eye and for no good reason.
I used science to show WHY the population figures star gave don’t work and why you too were equally wrong by ignoring all those famines, carrying capacity.
If you’re a speaker of truth, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with science so others like myself don’t have to give basic remedial courses on novel things the rest of the developed world already knows.
orange,
If you don't believe in God....what are you doing here?
Prophot,
“Yes, we know. You don't like God. “
What are you talking about? How can I hate, or not like something I don’t even think exists in the first place? Does it make sense saying you hate allah, appollo, Zeus or any other god just b/c you don’t find their existance crediable? No, it doesn’t
When you think critically of why you equally doubt the existence of all other gods except your own, you will see why I reject all those and yours.
Earlier you'd stated that the populations star estimated *could* be possible, however a quick glance at how many famines humanity has had and edured (which I referenced ) shows that in population growth it's always dependant upon resources and doen't grow exponentially. You made no comment on this and left it alone. You mentioned earlier you 'speak the truth', well pal it's time you look up the facts and quit deluding yourself.
Orange,
Yes, we know. You don't like God. But God still loves you. Regardless. And He will continue to send people to warn you, and try to steer you away from hell. But, in the end, it's still your decision. And you alone are responsible for the consequences of your own actions. You will have no one else to blame. Not even God.