Very well said, Tom. I had to end the discussion because i felt i was being sucked into that same sarcasm that he was portraying. In the scientific world, if you're doing an experiment and you get a certain result...you usually do it a number of times to make sure it's legitimate and not just some fluke. It's the same thing you said. With the number of people that pray to God and get an answer, common sense would say that there is something legitimate and real going on. But I have a feeling that Citizen attributes it to mass hysteria or mass brainwashing. I dont know. All I know is God is real, and He is perfect, just, loving, and powerful.

Citizen, I have seen your comments and sarcasms over the last few weeks and I wonder some times if your for real. I mean how can someone who claims to be so smart be so well dumb? Are you that prideful so full of yourself that when one pesents personal testimony on what God has done in their life you would deny that this happen to them. Does not science itself demand that for something to be consider true that it needs to be repeatable and verifiable? Thousand upons thousands of people can testify to what God through Jesus Chrsit has done in there lives----repeatable and verifiable. It is a mazing to me how you refuse to want to see the truth. Oh well it isn't called free will for nothing.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom

ok

Prophet: Except that belief is based on the argument from incredulity. Just because you can't imagine how your family could have gotten better, doesn't mean the answer is automatically "god" Ignorance is not evidence for the existence of supernatural creator deities.

but you missed my point....i prayed and God answered.

Prophet: You missed my point. You say yourself that your god isn't going to heal if he doesn't want to. So why would prayer matter?

Oh yeah, citizen, THAT'S the power of prayer!

I've wrestled with the healing part of things myself. I've asked questions of many preachers. I believe there are a myriad of reasons why. Everthing from lack of faith to God using their disability for a reason. Just because God doesn't heal an amputee, has nothing to do with the amputee's will. It has everything to do with their want. That person still has the choice on how they will live their life. They still have the choice to follow God or not. They still have the choice to let their situation destroy them or raise them up.
But going back to the healing thing...my wife was a diagnosed suicidal/chronic depressive. She was on prozac for many years (which didnt help). God healed her instantaneously one night at church. She was seen by a number of doctors that said she'd never have kids. She's given birth to two beautiful kids. My daughter was born with ASD ( a hole between the chambers of her heart). At age 5 we were told that since it hadn't closed up that it never would without open heart surgery to fix it. She was healed. My son was diagnosed with ADHD and told he would be on Aderall his whole life, because of the severity. He hasn't taken any in over two years and is doing great. He's actually been on the honor roll most of the 1 1/2 years he's been in junior high. so I know my God heals and delivers.

Prophet: but if 1. Newdow has free will and 2. god's gonna do what god wants (as I am told whenever I ask why god won't heal amputees) then isn't prayer essentially meaningless, even in the christian worldview? It doesn't seem like there is anything it could effect even for a christian.

"For we do not fight against flesh and blood. But we wage war against the rulers, authorities, and powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places". Our battle is a spiritual one.

the only thing about what lex wants to pray for is that God cannot go against Newdow's free will. But we can still pray that God will do something....and prayer has huge impact. especially if the Church joins in agreement.

Lex:what effect would prayer have on the situation?

dongard--thats why I said in my post that America's government will fall. because God is being removed from everything and sin is gaining ground. I saw a website, and i wish i would have bookmarked it, but it had all the past presidents who have referenced God and even quoted scripture in their inaugural speeches, state-of-the-union speeches, news interviews, etc. The number of times was asounding! to say the least. why isn't anyone complaining about that? After all....they are "establishing religion". God forgive me for saying this, but if you don't like the fact that we are trying to keep God in our country...you might want to try another country. There are a number of countries that don't allow God in their country, period! They are called communist. Feel free to move to one of those.

why is it that Christians continuously feel the need to force non-believers to pray to their god. what part of congress shall make no law establishing religion don't you people get?

Check out Jeremiah 20:7-12. Check out www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com.

I like that idea! I mean, I do pray for the lost everyday, but maybe an intercession on their part would do something. Unfortunately, Lex, we are fighting a losing battle. All this must come to pass. Every government will fail, which will usher in the end times. America's government will fail. Just like the Romans...from the cancer eating at it from the inside out. If the terrorists would just be patient, they would realize that they don't have to work so hard to bring us down. We are doing a good enough job by ourselves. But it doesn't mean we don't stop praying and fighting the spiritual battles. We need to continue on the course of righteousness and holiness, regardless of what everyone else is doing. It will be a long, lonely road...but at the end is our reward. Even much of the Church will go astray and follow pleasing words. They will trade His truth for man's lies. But remain faithful. No compormise. Unto death or His return.

I say we start a prayer movement for Newdow to meet the Lord. Let's pray for something dramatic, like Saul getting knocked off his donkey. Partly because nothing else is going to get him to shut up about kicking God out of America, and partly because I shudder to think of him meeting Jesus in his current condition.

How about every weekday morning at about the time your local public school is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? - Take a minute to pray for Newdow's salvation. (I think God enjoys irony.)