An Oklahoma lawmaker has received thousands of hostile e-mails and voice messages - including death threats - for speaking out about homosexuality and labeling it a bigger threat to America than terrorism or Islam.
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Lawmaker Threatened for Comparing Gay Lifestyle to Terrorism
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Sat, Mar. 15 2008 08:54 AM EDT
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Comments
why do all you people care so much about homosexual marrige? whoever wrote the bible didn't seem to care since He/she only writes a few lines concerning homosexuality, so you shouldn't care either. what are you so afraid of? homosexuality has been linked to genes which meens its involuntary and therefor not sinful.
terrorism, islam and homosexuality are our smallest threats. we should be concerned about much bigger issues like poverty and hunger and disiese, and war, and education.
The one true God's Word is absolute truth and wholly inerrant. Worldly compromise only results in a god created in man's image, capitulating to men's sinful desires - which is nothing more than worshipping a lie, an idol and leads only to damnation.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life and NO man comes to the Father, but by me."
The way is narrow and few there are that find it. Repent that you might have life.
Luke 9:5 NLT
"If the people of the village won't receive your message when you enter it, shake off its dust from your feet as you leave. It is a sign that you have abandoned that village to its fate."
Yes I am a jew,
Sure offering women to be raped is a sin, the Bible does not say it isn't, God didn't say, "Lot, becuase you have offered your daughters up you are a good man"
And you have imposed an arbitrary rule saying that "unless they are not related" that is arbitrary and means nothing. Why is being related pertinent? What reasons do you have? You can't say "Being married to a relative is wrong because being married to a relative is wrong" any more than I can say, "Homsexuality is wrong because Homosexuality is wrong"
Shequon,
"what you suggest is very biblical! Lot and his daughters did what they had to do to carry on the family line, and Lot is a major hero in the book of Genesis."
When did I suggest misinterpreting the Bible? They were clearly engaged in sin, many heroes were engaged in sin, David committed adultery, we do not say "Adultery is good!!!!" Besides Lot was fooled into it. His offspring also became two tribes that caused a great deal of evil towards Israel also. Please, if you are going to quote the Bible, do so responsibly.
Very well. Would you prefer that I stipulated that the happiness of two people finding love together is a blessing provided that those individuals are not directly related? Anyway, while on the issue of moral relativisim and Lot, are we forgetting that he offered his daughters up to a mob of sex crazed men to be raped senseless? Sure it was in the interest of hospitality but whatever you call it I condemn that far more than two individuals of the same sex in a committed loving relationship.
Actually, Chris, what you suggest is very biblical! Lot and his daughters did what they had to do to carry on the family line, and Lot is a major hero in the book of Genesis.
Yes I am a Jew,
What about happily married father and daughter (of legal marrying age)? Why should they not be allowed to be married? Wouldn't it be great if they were just happy! (If you are worried about genetic defects, they can get sterilized, I mean gays can't have children either). They could even adopt their own children, and maybe get married to them too, as long as everyone is happy, because as you are clearly implying happiness is the ULTIMATE STANDARD OF EVERYTHING!
Moral relativism disgusts me.
Can't say that I took the time to read to read all of the comments. Needless to say, I can't imagine that anyone here is actually agreeing that homosexuality is a greater threat than terrorism. If so then all of my earlier comments about religious zealots being linked to low intelligence and a lack of the ability to reason must be true. We have much bigger issues in this nation to worry about than homosexual relationships. The fact is that heterosexual marriages have a horrible record in this country, with divorce being more and more frequent. That any two people can love each other and remain happily in a relationship is a blessing, be it two men, two women or one of each. And to cut off the inevitable response by BigTex and those like him, just because you were molested in your youth doesn't make all homosexuals evil, just as it doesn't make all priests gay and/or evil.
From bigtex's commetns below, we can see that it is possible to perhaps know the bible , and not know of God's love at all. And it is possible to be "Christian," yet exemplify exactly the opposite of Christian love. The kingdom of God has no room for such blatant misusers of scripture, as Sally Kern will someday find out if she continues on her path, as did Falwell.
Using the logic that a person is accepted by God because they are in a "loving homosexual relationship" is rediculous. The Bible does not speak against a "loviing homosexual relationship" because that kind of relationship does not exist. Love is of God and those who love are of God. A homosexual may be a nice person, a great guy and be religious, but if he continues to defy God's mandate of living a life of purity and does not attempt to line his life up with the demands of God's word, then one is led to the conclusion that the homosexual man is lost and does not know God. (This can be said of a bank robber, a child molester, a drunk and any other person who is not presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.
homosexual relationships of all forms are sin because homosexuality of any kind is classified as SEXUAL IMMORALITY. Regardless of whether or not a person is involved in a "loving homosexual relationship" or not is irrelivant to the definition of sin (Missing the Mark). The homosexual relationship misses the mark (sins) in that it is not designed and approved by God.
READ the Bible, "Homosexuals, adulters, pedofiles, perverts, rapist, and any other person actively engaged in a pattern of willful sexual immoralty will not enter the Kingdom of God" The reason is that person has not been "born again." How do we know this? Their fruits of their life make it evident to all.
Let me make this really easy for you Quecat. Here's the issue (actually there are two):
Quecat's presumposition: ALL homosexual behavior is sinful.
Here's what I believe the Bible says: Some homosexual behavior is sinful but only in the context that heterosxual behavior is also sinful. Loving committed homosexual relationships are not sinful.
The secondary issue is that the Bible is not to be taken literally - as it cannot be taken literally.
So in other words, Quecat, the bible contradicts itself. What I see in one passage may not be true in another. That's what we've been saying all along. It is impossible to take every single passage literally and say it's all "God's word." If you don't see that, then you're the one who's "hard-hearted and stiff-necked."
ifeelfine:
What about this do you not get? Am trying to walk you through this step by step - but every time it looks like we're making progress, you step back and reiterate your old fleshly belief that works somehow have a part in your salvation!
Let me spell this out:
We are saved by grace through faith.
Even our faith is a gift of God - so we can't boast about it.
Our faith is what?.. that Christ died on the cross for ALL of our sins - done- paid for.
Once we embrace and believe in the salvation He has provided, it's only a matter of us recognizing Him as Lord. Not some casual "yeah, you're Lord" - but LORD in every sense of the word. You are bought with a price. You now answer to Him for everything that you do. You should take your daily marching orders from your Lord.
Our love and gratitude towards our Savior leads us to want to please Him and that means obeying Him, bringing honor and glory to His name.
In the same way a child wishes to be pleasing to their parent (although our human-to-human relationships can only be a shadow of what a man-to-God relationship was designed to be)
When your child misbehaves, there is a reckoning for the misdeed. The child is still the child of the parent and is still loved. But that misdeed has created a rift in their relationship. The joy and sweet fellowship has been broken until such time and the child recognizes their error and is forgiven.
It is the same with your Father in heaven. If you truly love Him - you will want to walk in His ways - not out debt to a "law", but out of genuine love and respect and a wish to please Him.
Grace is the overarching theme here - but it does not mean that you can go on walking in error without being called to account for it. Doing so grieves the Father, yes - but it is more damaging to you. To continue walking in sin, separates you from God and hardens your heart towards the things of God.
Do you realize that if you continue to harbor sin in your heart that God won't even hear your prayers??
Psa 66:18-19 "If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear. But certainly God has heard me; He has attended to the voice of my prayer."
Jhn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and DOETH HIS WILL, him he heareth."
We have ultimate freedom in Christ - but not so that we may squander our lives and resources in evil - but rather that we may please the Lord our God who sacrificed so much to bring us back into fellowship with Himself.
Oh this hard-hearted and stiff-necked generation!!
Nowire - you evidently overlooked 1 Corinthians 7:21
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you–although if you can gain your freedom, do so."
When the bible says "Slaves, obey your masters," it clearly means that to liberate oneself would be against God's word. The parts about killing non-believers and disobedient children were also written in such a way that they are not optional.
Quecat - I told you before - you can't have it both ways. We are either under the law or we're not. Now you're saying we are. Which is it? If we are, then the Bible implicitly endorses slavery - if not, why the concern at all?
Can you define a sin? I like the simple definition - anything that separates us from God. It could be as simple as watching a violent movie at the theatre or as gruesome as stealing thousands of dollars out of people's retirement accounts. That is why we are no longer under OT law. The passages that talk about homosexuality in the NT all have one thing in common - lust. Lust is sinful - homosexual lust or heterosexual lust. However, a loving committed gay relationship is not sinful, is not mentioned in the Bible and should be accepted.
Seedplanter - those sins all have victims. Heterosexual lust and homosexual lust also have victims. Loving gay relationships have no victims and incorporate the summation of the law.
John MacArthur's "Drawing Near" devotion for today seemed particularly timely:
"Thy kingdom come" (Matt. 6:10).
Many people who think they're kingdom citizens will someday be shocked to discover they aren't. In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but HE WHO DOES THE WILL of My Father who is in heaven." Some people think highly of the kingdom but never receive the King. They call Jesus "Lord" but don't do His will. Lip service won't do. You must receive the King and His kingdom (John 1:12)...
...you must continually pursue the kingdom. In Matthew 6:33 Jesus says, "Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you." In context He was discussing the basic necessities of life such as food and clothing, reminding His disciples that their Heavenly Father knew their needs and would supply them if they simply maintained the proper priorities. Unbelievers characteristically worry about meeting their own needs (v. 32), but believers are to be characterized by trusting in God and pursuing His kingdom.
Christ offers His kingdom to everyone (Matt. 28:19). The only acceptable response is to receive it, value it, and pursue it. Is that your response? Have you received the kingdom? Is it precious to you? I trust it is. If so, rejoice and serve your King well today. Make His kingdom your top priority. If not, turn from your sin and submit your life to Christ, who loves you and longs to receive you into His eternal kingdom."
AMEN!
http://www.gty.org/Resources/DailyDevotion
ifeelfine,
RE: being a Christian - then there is reason to rejoice!
Now, that having been established - You say that you love the Lord, the next question then is do you obey Him?
Those that love the Lord will obey Him and demonstrate their love by their obedience:
Jesus said in Jhn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:21 " Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them." John 14:24 "Anyone who doesn't love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me."
Acts 5:32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
2Th 3:14 "...if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother."
seed "Cit, in addition to my prior example, I also know a woman who became ensnared in lesbianism with a friend of hers in conclusion to a tragic divorce incurring from a dominating husband. She obviously was seeking a genuine love relationship My point here is that once again this is no sign of genetic predisposition"
I am sure there are some folks that "experiment" with homosexuality that are perhaps not driven by genetics. To say your friend "is no sign of genetic predisposition", how do you know this? She might have always had a tendency towards homosexuality, even when married to a man.
"But even if you did postulate such a scenario, it does not imply that such activity is beneficial or permissible."
Exactly part of my argument I think. Why would someone choose to be gay with all the hardships and pain that it brings to them- there are no real benefits - they are not gay by choice, although I would say there are probably exceptions as there are for most things.
There are no benefits to being genetically predisposed to terrible diseases such as heart disease and cancer, but yet they exist.
“In all of that writing I didn't once see where a loving homosexual relationship was discussed or shown to be against God.”
Ifeelfine, this is an argument from silence and completely unwarranted by the overall context of Scripture. Other examples could be given for loving bestiality relationships and loving incestual relationships, after all neither one is specifically forbidden in Scripture either. Should we then presume that we have God’s favor? You might find my response to citsonga helpful in association with this dilemma that you have tried to put forth.
Cit, in addition to my prior example, I also know a woman who became ensnared in lesbianism with a friend of hers in conclusion to a tragic divorce incurring from a dominating husband. She obviously was seeking a genuine love relationship; they have been together for over twenty years now. She is a very kind and giving person. She even runs a business downtown. My point here is that once again this is no sign of genetic predisposition. But even if you did postulate such a scenario, it does not imply that such activity is beneficial or permissible. I think this position holds up under both naturalism as well as Biblically speaking.
The Scripture declares that we are all inherently sinful. We all have to come to grip with the reality that our sins nailed Jesus to the cross. So, no matter whether it is homosexuality, alcoholism, pornography addictions or being a habitual liar; Jesus died in our place. This means that we are no longer our own and that we have been bought with a price. Our response is simply to throw ourselves down at the feet of Jesus in humble repentance. When we get a glimpse of His face, in all of our imperfections we will no longer want to do those things. We will in fact despise our sin and become ruthless in its eradication, not giving any excuse or justification.
ifellfine72, you are asking Quecat a question that the Bible does not address. It was not written to address all of the social ills. Slavery was and remains a social scurge on our world, but the Bible's purpose is to point us to Jesus and teach us how to be conformed into His image (Romans 8:20). How does he do this? Romans 12:1-2. There are many social ills Scripture just does not address. It is written to address personal living before a holy God. Whether slave or free, male or female, Jew or Gentile, we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ and render an accounting of our life.
ifeelfine72,
thanks for the prayer, i do need it.
BigTex: I feel sorry for you and will pray for you.
QueCat: I am a Christian. I love the Lord with all my heart and soul and was saved almost 20 years ago.
Tell me, do you think that the slave holders who used the Bible to justify their ownership were Christians or do you think that all slaveholders are in Hell? And if slavery was it was against God then why didn't He say anything about it - that makes no sense that God commented on so many things and yet, quite possibly the most horrible institution known to man, he was morally ambivalent about? I don't get it.
Thanks BigTex - I know - all too well, unfortunately.
But we still must try. It's my job to spread the gospel and speak the truth in love. It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict a sinner and steer him towards repentance.
I'm just the sower. Perhaps someone else may reap the harvest. Either way - it's all good.
Maranatha!
Who is stepping back?
If it suits you to play the victim, go right ahead. But I'm not the victimizer.
I wrote that portion of my answer to you originally on March 7th in response to a poster who was arguing in favor of salvation by works plus faith.
Do you consider yourself Christian?
Honestly - I'm curious.
...and if so - why? (no accusation here - I sincerely would like to know upon what you base your claim to salvation.
I eagerly await your response.
Quecat,
Your arguments are well thought out and well developed. It is unfortunate that those Ifellfine72 cannot see the truths you are trying so hard to champion. The real truth is, those who are blinded by the ways of the world will never know or understand the truth.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 explains it best, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ."
Those outside of the Spirit will never understand because they are guided by their reason, their logic, their false sense of morality based on the principles of worldly living and a false sense of right and wrong built on whether it feels good to them or not.
Ifellfine72- you will never understand the truth until you put yourself under the Biblical truth of the Bible. "You will know them by their fruits." A fig tree will not produce apples neither will an apple tree produce a peach. A real Christian can never accept homosexuality as a meaningful, healthy relationship any more that he/she can accept Allah as the true God.
Quecat - Actually it doesn't apply to me at all but was obviously directed at me as you stated my name right above that paragraph - so don't throw that out there and then step back from it.
Actually that comment was no such thing as being directed AT you.
It was a comment in general that nominal christians tend to think of "once saved always saved" as a get out of jail free card that allows them to continue unabashedly in their old way of life
However, it is interesting that you thought it applied to you.
Quecat: In all of that writing I didn't once see where a loving homosexual relationship was discussed or shown to be against God. Also, I didn't appreciate the snarky comment about being a "pew warmer." You know nothing about my life and situation and yet you direct that comment to me.
Jude 1:5 "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this...
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to FORNICATION, and
going after STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Going after "strange flesh" = Greek 'sarx heteros" - literally lusting after "other men's bodies"
Jud 1:8 "Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers (beguiled by sensual images) defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities (God's majesty)
Jud 1:10-11a But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them!"
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION (GR:porneia) , and all uncleanness, or covetousness, LET IT NOT BE ONCE NAMED AMONG YOU, AS BECOMETH SAINTS; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
FORNICATION is the selected English word translation of Greek 'porneia' - which is used to describe illicit sexual behavior/intercourse including adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1Cr 5:9-13 "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."
Ifeelfine, Regarding your claim that the Bible and specifically the NT condones slavery:
Perhaps you refer to Col 3:22-23 where Paul says "Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men". Is Paul condoning slavery? No. Slavery was a social reality during Jesus' and Paul's time on earth. Paul was merely addressing how it is that we are to conduct ourselves regardless of what station in life we may find ourselves in.
During the time of the early church, there were many slaves in the Roman Empire and rebellions occurred often. Many Christian converts were servants or slaves. Paul instructs them if they cannot be set free, to continue as slaves (1 Cor 7:20-23). In other words, do not run away and do not rebel. However, Paul says if you can attain freedom – do so!
He is not blessing the then existing institution of slavery, but telling us that whatever we do, we should do to the glory of God. Are you a manager in a company? Be the best manager you can be...not so your boss will be impressed with you, but rather work as though it is for the Lord. Do you push a mop? Be the best mop pusher ever! Our diligence in whatever work we put our hands to, brings glory to our Lord.
Perhaps you take issue with Paul's exhortation: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven” (Colossians 4:1).
This isn't about "hey slavery is good and here's how to do it well", but rather Paul is speaking regarding what at the time was an accepted convention, and is merely instructing masters to treat their slaves/servants/employees with justice and equality.
Perhaps the following bothers you:
Matt 8:5 "And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him."
Do you believe that because Jesus did not rebuke the centurion for having a slave, that he is tacitly condoning what was at the time was considered part of the normal societal hierarchy? Or perhaps you're somehow basing your conclusion that the NT approves of slavery because Jesus mentioned "servants" in His parables?
I reject your claim that the New Testament "endorses" slavery. You are clearly reading unintended meanings into scripture by your prejudicial opinions. It is very poor exegesis of scripture to claim that everything in scripture that is not condemned must thus be blessed.
1Cr 7:22-24 "For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also He that is called, [being] free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God."
Ifeel fine said: "...homosexuality as its stated in the Bible has everything to do with law. By your own words you're suggesting that it is not a sin. And I'm not setting up a strawman argument, I'm just stating you cannot have it both ways."
ifeelfine,
On the contrary, again you misunderstand or are misrepresenting the concept of grace.
You are making the assumption that the liberty derived from grace automatically obligates us to indulge in license. It may indeed, for the deceived half-hearted pew-warmer hoping vainly for fire insurance, but not for the truly obedient Christian who "studies to show himself approved" He would find that Paul writes in Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!...even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Matt 15:19, Eph 5:3-7, 1 Thes 4:3, 1Cr 5:9-13 and 6:9-10 are all New Testament admonitions to abstain from sexual sin. Is this a form of law? No. But, this is one way in which we are called to walk in personal holiness. It is plainly called a sin; sin that should be repented of and avoided. In as much as we are NOT condemned by our daily shortcomings, when we repent of them and confess them to the Lord - we CAN be condemned by purposely continuing to walk in sin with an unrepentant heart.
"The law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth." "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ." "Now we are delivered from the law, having died to that in which we were held" (Rom. 7:1,4,6).
We all have sins that we struggle with. The operative word there, though, is "struggle". It's a totally different matter if I'm happily wallowing in my sin with no remorse whatsoever for grieving the heart of God.
1 Ths 4:3-5 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God"
Quecat - But when Christians talk about "the Law" it always refers to the Old Testament. Slavery recieves that implicit endorsement in the New Testament as well.
In any case, homosexuality as its stated in the Bible has everything to do with law. By your own words you're suggesting that it is not a sin. And I'm not setting up a strawman argument, I'm just stating you cannot have it both ways.
Ifeelfine said: "The reason I find it funny is because we are all guilty of picking and choosing - it's what makes me so angry when people claim to be believe the Bible literally. They don't - they pick and choose like the rest of us what to take more literally..."
Actually - what makes me so "angry" is when people claim to be a Christian and DON'T believe the Bible literally!
You're showing little understanding of scripture if you somehow infer that because the covenant of the law spoke about how to treat slaves, that we should consider ourselves hypocrites because we no longer adhere to a system of slavery and are thus "picking and choosing" what we wish to believe from scripture.
Your comment is either made in blatant ignorance (not in a bad way - just honestly not knowing any better) or it's intentionally setting up straw men to bolster your argument.
Those who are in Christ are no longer debtors to the Law - we walk in Grace. This is fundamental to the Christian faith! The Law exists only to show us that we cannot keep it and that there must be another way. That way is Christ Jesus.
So for someone to call themselves "Christian" and then doubt the veracity of the bible by pointing out biblical injunctions regarding what is edible, a worthy sacrifice, ceremonially clean and so on - shows that you haven't learned the lesson of grace and brings disrepute upon the name of "Christian". That being the case - it's no wonder that scoffers doubt the literal truth of the bible and think that Christians are ill informed, nonsensical, non-thinkers.
An axiom comes to mind...the blind leading the blind.
Chris: That is not even close to being true despite what Dobson tries to say otherwise.
scitsonga,
It is not to say that molestation = homosexuality, you have made a logical error. Say 95% of homosexuals were molested by their father or close male relative (this is not necessarily true), this would not mean that 95% of children molested by their father or close relative would become homosexual, it would only mean that the majority of homosexuals had been.
Here is another example, "If you jump off a very tall building, you will die" Does not mean, "If you die, then you have jumped off a very tall building"
seed, It would seem that we have conflicting data, i have already offered you proof - as described in my post.
"I know otherwise! I have friends who have been involved in the gay scene which specifically started after they were molested."
I know heterosexuals that were molested, they remain as heterosexuals.
"No, gays are attracted to the same sex for the same reason heterosexuals are attracted to opposite sex- GENETICS."
Two words: Prove IT!
I know otherwise! I have friends who have been involved in the gay scene which specifically started after they were molested.
seedplanter "-I am afraid that for many sexually confused people they were in fact indoctrinated."
No, gays are attracted to the same sex for the same reason heterosexuals are attracted to opposite sex- GENETICS.
I know many gays, and there is a common theme among them, they knew from a very young age that they were different than the majority of people around them- they were attracted to the same sex. They were afraid of their feelings and confused and something they resisted and fought, but in the end learned that they were born attracted to the opposite sex. I am a heterosexual, I knew at a very young age that I was attracted to the opposite sex, it wasn't something I decided, it is how I was born - a heterosexual. Same thing for gays. I am happy to be an agnostic, because I don't feel a need to vilify gays the way religious folks do.
Whoever gave me a thumb's down - show me in the Bible where it says that committed same-sex relationships are a sin. I'm not just talking about lustful gay sex because that is a sin. I'm talking about loving, committed same-sex relationships.
ifeelfine72: “"They want our kids?" That is one of the most ignorant, hateful statements you could make.”
-This is exactly what homosexual activists declared when they stormed a church some years back, throwing water filled condemns.
“Homosexuality isn't a religion that one needs to be indoctrinated in - its a sexual orientation.”
-I am afraid that for many sexually confused people they were in fact indoctrinated. I think that there is a direct correlation between the rise of sexual confusion and the unsolicited promotion in schools, the media (including pornography) and literature (such as the Little Black Book). It is also often times produced by molestation. Anybody who denies these facts is simply living with their head in the sand and unwilling to be honest about it. I am not saying that this is the whole story, but this is at least part of the story. Of course there are those who are confused without provocation.
Furthermore, while there may be those who explain away and reinterpret Scripture to suite their self, it is a dangerous thing- no matter where the sword falls. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. To edit out the homosexual warnings and gloss over them to mean adultery is just not good hermeneutics.
As per our friend Al, he did trust God for salvation and was active in discipleship as well. By God’s grace no matter what grievous sins we have committed thank God as we have freely partaken, we may freely share.
CanadianChristian: The Bible endorses slavery because it tells people how to treat their slaves. If it was against slavery, wouldn't it say that? So clearly a literal translation of the Bible is not against slavery. Also, how does "spare the rod, spoil the child" suggest anything less than physical punishment? It doesn't.
Christians who believe in and obey all the commands of GOD get angry when others pick and choose scripture to support their sin, it is called righteous anger- it is what JESUS had when HE cleared out the temple of the blasphemers who used GOD'S house of worship as a market place. Another thing- GOD does not command us to take slaves nor does it command us to beat our children, dicipline for children requires punishment- out of love,not anger and a thorough explanation of why they are being punished. I take the bible literally, and I rely on the HOLY SPIRIT to guide me into the truth of the scripture that I am studying and the passage is taken into context- a good idea is to read the prior 2-3 passages and 2-3 passages after to get a good idea of the message, hope this helps for all concerned. IN JESUS NAME.
The word of God is clear in showing us only two ways for a man to avoid fornication: Abstinence or take a wife (woman).
“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let EVERY man have his own wife, and let EVERY woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.” (1 Co 7:1-3).
seedplanter - I'm glad that you and your wife were ministering to the guy dying of AIDS - And you're right, Christ's message is one of hope and freedom, I hope your friend accepted that before he passed. He came to save all of us, Amen for that.
However, the Bible does not condemn same-sex commited relationships. It condemns the same type of relationships that get heterosexuals in trouble (lustful ones, adulterous ones, etc).
TerryH - And you've never met an angry Christian? Read some of these posts - you'll see lots of them. As for death threats, etc - How do you know that they were made by gay people? It would be easy for atheists to condemn all Christians based on an abortion clinic bombing but for the most part they don't and I'm glad they don't because they don't reflect my views as a Christian.
Seedplanter - Do you believe what you're writing? Gosh, I hope not. "They want our kids?" That is one of the most ignorant, hateful statements you could make. Homosexuality isn't a religion that one needs to be indoctrinated in - its a sexual orientation. And its not easily programmable I might add - Seedplanter, are you attracted to the same sex? Assuming the answer is no, is there a time in your life when you ever were attracted to the same sex or had any amount of confusion about it where you could have been "recruited?" I doubt it. While some sexual identity confusion is common in adolescence, its not enough to allow recruitment.
BigTex: The reason I find it funny is because we are all guilty of picking and choosing - it's what makes me so angry when people claim to be believe the Bible literally. They don't - they pick and choose like the rest of us what to take more literally (I do it as much as everyone else here - I just admit it). They are moral relatvists and yet some claim superiority to that. Its hogwash - no one owns slaves anymore in the US, beating your child isn't the done thing anymore and yet both practices are condoned or even encouraged in the Bible. And up until a few years ago both practices were acceptable - partly because of that implied endorsement. So no, its not stupid BigTex, its appropriate - you just haven't removed the plank from your own eye to see it.
I guess we all know that when someone is offended there will be feedback. I think that it is worth noting that in this article that from the writer's viewpoint is unacceptable. Nowhere in the article is there a comment regarding death threats to those who practice homosexuality. I see there is a part of the article that says depression and illness is a part of the homosexual lifestyle. I think that anger needs to be included as the article states there were death threats emailed to the writer. If the writer is considered a hate monger what do you think the emailers are?
The shame-filled history of the homosexual has left nations less populated, sicker, and emotionally and financially drained. Even the vast majority of their leaders per capita have fought hard to preserve the STD curse on the earth, while taking pleasure in destroying the minds of children with despicable acts of lewdness and molestation.
Homosexuality is a satanic DEATH-style which destroys the family, manhood, womanhood, and childhood in order the mock at God's divine order and destroy the future generations of humanity. Sometimes youth are bent toward to same sex when they were exposed to sexual images of the same sex during puberty while lacking a father figure at home. This emotional disorder is spread primarily by pornography and child molestation from the same sex. Then feelings of rejection from the opposite-sex have perpetuated this unhealthy dysfunction into adulthood.
Whatever the sin committed, God loves us too much to leave us way we are. The only God who is real is HOLY and He has commanded that ALL repent and renounce their law-breaking (sinful) lifestyle and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/#the_message_that_we_were_born_to_hear
For the record ifeelfine, I have nothing personally against those who are caught in the grip of homosexuality. My wife has a Bible sitting on her shelf that was given her by a guy who died of AIDS a few years ago. I befriended him and he frequented home fellowships on a regular basis that I hosted. These people need our love and support, this includes a bold declaration of hope and freedom; Jesus came to set the captives free (not just adulteresses and thieves). This is in no way to infer that I am not in dire need of the grace of God myself. A last point, when we condone sin we are surely in serious danger.
“Seedplanter was quote mining…”
Not quite!!!
"Quote miners" are often accused of contextomy and misquotation, in an attempt to represent the views of the person being quoted inaccurately. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quote_mining
Check out the doctor for yourself: http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf
You don’t have to agree with him, but his observation cannot be dismissed out of hand.
Jim Crow laws? No, just a reality check. Homosexuality is being pushed down the throats of our innocent children by radicals who unabashedly proclaim, ‘We want your kids.’ Unfortunately do to the sway of liberalism psychologists are a hair’s breath away from being indicted for treating it as a disorder to the detriment of those seeking their help. Recent studies demonstrated that there is hope for those who want to change. Homosexuality not only is a risky behavior, but it increases depression and suicide.
Not to mention, we are on the brink of losing our freedom of speech by the social progressives that are imposing their pseudo-toleration clause. It has already happened in Canada where the Bible is already deemed ‘hate speech.’
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38268
Chicago,
It is not that we feel the need to alienate homosexuals, it is that we take the Bible seriously when it says not to keep a brother in sin in the Church. This is a willing, knowledgable, staying in sin and a person cannot stay in the Body of Christ and not repent.
Ifeelfine,
He wasn't quote mining, he was stating facts. The CDC says exactly the same thing. Namely that Homosexuality is a dangerous behavior and numerous risks are associated with it.
From the CDC website:
AIDS has been diagnosed for more than half a million MSM. Over 300,000 MSM with AIDS have died since the beginning of the epidemic.
MSM made up more than two thirds (68%) of all men living with HIV in 2005, even though only about 5% to 7% of men in the United States reported having sex with other men.
In a 2005 study of 5 large US cities, 46% of African American MSM were HIV-positive.
(MSM = Men who have Sex with Men)
This is an epidemic, and it should be treated like any other. Why not?
Ifeelfine72- no that was not good, it was stupid.
nowire - what a childish come back. I am attempting to discuss the issue at hand which pertains to sexual immorality. The truth is sexual immorality leads to moral decline and cultural destruction.
Maybe, just maybe, if we did start enforcing the biblical code of conduct we would have less murders, less rapes, less dope heads, less drunks, less perverts, less divorces, less liars, less theives, less adulterers, less pedofiles, less animal abusers, less ... well you get the idea.
We don't live in a perfect world but if we followed the Bible is sure would be alot better off. But I suppose you like murder, theft, lying, drunkeness, rape, envy, drugs, death and destruction. Perhaps you like to see people suffering with AIDS. Maybe you like to hear those who participate in sexual immorality suffer from high rates of STD's. Maybe, if you have children, you will be excited when your little girl comes home and says she has an STD because she and her boyfriend were just having a good time. (1/4 of teenage girls have and STD today.)
Eat, drink and be merry but you soul will be required of you.
Nowire - that is good! Ha ha!
MuggleBorn - I didn't see wilderness' response to it
Chicago - I wholeheartedly agree!
Quecat - You're reading the Bible with the eye and heart of a prejudiced sinner.
ifeelfine,
Sorry, I haven't looked into the robes yet. It looks like wilderness left a response to it, which sound reasonable, but I'll have to read through it to make an assessment.
I was trying to be as detailed as possible, and give an explanation about the context of the reference in Acts. Please let me know if you have any questions about it. Sometimes I leave things rather implied than outwardly stated.
But leave the response in the Homeschooling thread. God Bless.
"It seems that we want to pick and choose what we like and believe what we accept. Why can we not believe the Bible when it speaks against the things that we do? "
I guess I'm guilty of that. My whole family is. My brother's kids have disobeyed their parents a few times, and he has yet kill any of them. What's up with that? Of course that would be against the law, but that's what happens when you have "activist judges" criminalizing biblical behavior.
Quecat,
Right ON!. You have driven the nail in deep. Thanks for taking the time to voice the truth. I get so tired of hearing excuses for our deviant behaviors. "All have sinned" (especially me) but I cannot attempt to defend my sinfulness in order to make myself feel better about myself.
If only people would believe what the Bible says. It seems that we want to pick and choose what we like and believe what we accept. Why can we not believe the Bible when it speaks against the things that we do? Why can we only accept the parts that we agree with and try to justify the things that speak against us.
"Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
fornication = Greek 'porneia' - illicit sexual intercourse, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1Cr 5:9-13 "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” "
Accept the repentant? Most certainly! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid!
I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.
God calls it an abomination! Got a problem with it? Talk to Him.
In the mean time, excuse me if I reject your moral relativism
Ifeelfine72: True, the Bible does condemn certain, specific homosexual acts. These acts that Paul condemns in Romans and Corinthians have little relevance to a loving, monogomous relationship between two people of the same sex.
What is much more difficult to justify is why so many conservative Christians feel the need to judge and alienate gay people from the Body of Christ, especially when they have so many misguided views about their gay brothers and sisters.
MuggleBorn - I just read it. It seems pretty convoluted; certainly not "sola scriptura." I didn't see a response to my different colored robes that Jesus had on that I put up there either.
Chris: Seedplanter was quote mining. And his argument was exactly like that of those that we were trying to keep Jim Crow alive in the south - so it was a fair and proper argument.
Chicago: Just curious - with your theological background how do you justify homosexuality and what the Bible says?
Muggleborn - I'll go back and check . . . was it in response to the two different colored robes I pointed out?
Ifeelfine72,
I know the ‘Homeschooling Threatened’ thread is pretty much died out, but did you get a chance to see the post I left for you on the 'Field of Blood'? I wanted to get your feedback on it. You’re gonna have to go back a few pages :^) Let me know.
I cannot believe the utter madness that I read on these posts. Any serious Christian cannot support homosexual behavior. I literally goes against "nature" to say the least. There is nothing good that can come of a relationship that defies the natural function of the man or woman.
Homosexuality, like adultery and fornication are all Biblically classified as "sexual immorality." Thus when one commits any of these practices he/she sins against their own body. As such they bring judgement upon themselves in the form of diseases, std's, emotional, psychological, spiritual and physical suffering.
First we are asked to be tolerant. When we are tolerant then we are asked to be agreeable. If we are tolerant but not agreeable then we are labeled. If we still refuse to accept then we are slandered. Then we are threatened.
Ultimately we will be forced to accept sexual immorality like the Canadians or face lawsuits, fines, or jail. Those who attempt to defend sexual immorality of any kind are standing on sinking sand.
ifeelfine,
It is not fair for you to accuse seedplanter of all that, he only quoted a doctor and provided resources backing up this claim. It is not shaming, it is science and studies.
Hyperion Overseer,
What are you saying? Can you please back up your statements with Scripture. If not I am going to have to assume you are arguing from pagan influences.
Chicago,
Interesting situation. But it doesn't change the fact that homosexuality is condemned by the Bible. We cannot redefine what sin is to suit our situation.
Hyperion: That's way off base calling me stupid, but I'll respond anyway. First of all, my dad is a Southern Baptist minister and he produced a gay son (me) who also became a minister. He is about the most conservative person you'd ever meet but we have a wonderful and mutually respectful relationship.
So, now you can't say you don't know of at least one pastor in that situation. Believe me, there are many more.
HyperionOverseer - I don't get it? Why would a pastor never be in that situation? Pastor's have gay sons and daughters all the time. Heck, Ted Haggard is gay and he was a pastor! You clearly don't know much about gay people.
Seedplanter - Your arguments sound exactly like those who tried to keep the Jim Crow laws alive in the South back in the 50's and 60's when it was evident they were going the way of the dodo bird.
Did you ever consider that it's people like you who try to shame gay people and make what they do dirty so that of course they're not going to engage in safer sexual practices?
“Now I know that a lot of people have attacked those who have brought this to people’s attention as being homophobic, but the real issue — and you have to face the facts — is that men who have sex with men have very high rates of sexually transmitted disease.”
“When you face that reality, then you have to start taking a serious look and deciding that the best public health intervention is to discourage behavior that causes the infection to spread.” – Internationally known infectious disease specialist, Dr. John Diggs, talking to CNSNews.com about the new study on MRSA and homosexual men
http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf
http://www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200801/CUL20080126a.html
http://www.dawnstefanowicz.com/
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52311
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52344
chicago
That remark is way off base, i never known a pastor or minister who would be in that situation. And you are rather stupid for saying that about her as well, even if she had to contend with one or more of her children being gay--which under the powerful influence of God would not happen under virtually any circumstances--she would STILL stay her course and not back down, that's what makes faith in God so powerful, faith that overcomes fear.
i think you need to reconsider speaking further against someone who's resolute in their faith.