Conservative Christian leaders who believe the word "evangelical" has lost its religious meaning plan to release a starkly self-critical document saying the movement has become too political and has diminished the Gospel through its approach to the culture wars.
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Evangelicals Say Faith is Now too Political
By
Rachel Zoll and Eric Gorski
AP Religion Writers
Sat, May. 03 2008 09:51 AM EDT
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Comments
Chip: “I'm suspicious of these evangelicals... don't sound like neither salt nor light!”
Ad hominem attack, Chip. Questioning the opposing viewpoint’s status as a “born again” believer does not prove that the said opposing viewpoint’s viewpoint is unBiblical.
seedplanter: “I would go further than that and state: The Bible itself is political.”
Define “politics.”
seedplanter: “One example should help answer your question: Today few Americans consider slavery acceptable. This is by and large a result of slavery being outlawed - legally.”
Really? So as soon as Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, the people of the United States of America and the Confederate States of America suddenly just realized that slavery is evil?
seedplanter: “One of the reasons why many people find abortion acceptable is because the court sanctioned it and the legislation that followed (under Jimmy Carter-?) approved it.”
Really? So as soon as the United States Supreme Court ruled on the Roe v. Wade case, the American people suddenly just embraced abortion as “a woman’s right”?
comicalcupcake: “By restraining evil.”
“Restraining evil?”
You are equivocating restraining the external ability to do evil with restraining the internal will to do evil. Specifically, your ambiguous terminology implies that restraining the external ability to do evil automatically entails restraining the internal will to do evil. But, to the contrary, if one is determined enough to do evil, then one will find a way to do the said evil.
In application, in America’s democratic republican political system, if the unGodly are determined enough, then . . .
. . . the unGodly can always frustrate and remove Godly politicians,
. . . the unGodly can always violate and overturn Godly legislation, and
. . . the unGodly can always oppose Godly organizations.
Therefore, I submit that the action of “restraining evil” begins and ends in attacking one’s internal will to do evil with opposing ideas via our 1st Amendment rights, otherwise the action of “restraining evil” will inevitably become a vain struggle, like a “sociocultural Vietnam.”
comicalcupcake: “Take pornography as an example . . . because of its prevalence, the idea of "normal" sexual behavior has changed.”
But how do you know that the increased availability of pornographic material primarily caused American sexual immorality, as opposed to the idea that American sexual immorality primarily caused the increased availability of pornographic material? For instance, which came first in bulk, “free love” or “free porn”?
comicalcupcake: “When you have leaders that restrain availability of harmful material, they retard the corruption of society.”
But how does keeping one away from “harmful material” equip the said individual to resist the basic temptations of the said “harmful material”?
FOR JHS:
i QUOTE YOU AS:[ In every state where evangelicals are the majority, there is higher poverty, less educated , less healthly, higher divorce rates, I think it has to do whith the Evangelicals belief that any governtment is bad and no oversite of business or regulation, so its pretty much anything goes economicaly. So many people vote for these Herbert Hoover republicans thinking that what Jesus would want. When the fact is the right wing republicans have caused most of the countries problems and created a huge wealth income gap between the wealthy and the rest of the country, and have created more poverty amoung working people than anyone thought possible].
THIS IS TOO MUCH FUN AND YOU REALLY OPENED YOURSELF UP. Actually the statistics are that in most states where a democrat and the democrat party are in power is where there is the most poverty and government handouts. In states a run by republicans and a robust capitalistic entrepeneural incentive are the most thriving communities.
Case in point> In New York democrats ran the city into the ground. New York lost its "AAA" Bond rating..UNTIL Rudolph GUiliani took power.
Case in POint: Philadelphia... 25 years of democrat rule. Phila. is in shambles, Has the highest homocide rate and one of the higest prison populations by county.
I don't believe the issue is whether or not Christian Evangelicals are too much involved in the political process, but rather many believe that when a person who is an evangelical and involved with politics they are saying they are also a Republican. This may be true in some cases because they believe that only the Republicans will uphold Christian morals and values or it may be that since the Democrats at the National level until recently have tended whether intentional or not to distance themselves from the evangelical community. For me personally I look at each candidate regardless of their political party to see where they stand on all issues but most especially on those issues that if elected they will have a major impact on. Billy Graham I am told has said in the past that he does not vote for a person simply because they profess to be a Christian but rather on their qualifications to do the job effectively that they are being elected to do. Here in Southeast Kentucky to elect a Democrat at the state or local level in a majority of cases is to elect a person who agrees with a majority of the morals and values of Christian Evangelicals. So to me I believe we as Christians need to be actively involved in the political system in order to do our best to insure that our community, state, and nation are both presenting and implementing legislation that is both God honoring as well as God pleasing that will allow us to be the strong, healthy, Christ honoring, and family friendly nation, state, and local community that God has called us and desires us to be.
Democracy: “The dictatorship of the 51%, with no controls and nothing with which to challenge the majority”. -Francis A. Schaeffer
poleblog.polemos.net
I'm suspicious of these evangelicals... don't sound like neither salt nor light!
In every state where evangelicals are the majority, there is higher poverty, less educated , less healthly, higher divorce rates, I think it has to do whith the Evangelicals belief that any governtment is bad and no oversite of business or regulation, so its pretty much anything goes economicaly. So many people vote for these Herbert Hoover republicans thinking that what Jesus would want. When the fact is the right wing republicans have caused most of the countries problems and created a huge wealth income gap between the wealthy and the rest of the country, and have created more poverty amoung working people than anyone thought possible.
kerijay, Alan Keyes is the only politician's poster that ever set in my front yard.
Nevertheless, I think your hopes are mislead if you think he stands a chance at receiving 1% of the votes. He did not even get the nomination for the Constitutionalist Party. If they don't have a chance, why would he have a chance as an independant?
"How do external acts like electing politicians and passing legislation change the internal state of men?"
One example should help answer your question: Today few Americans consider slavery acceptable. This is by and large a result of slavery being outlawed - legally.
One of the reasons why many people find abortion acceptable is because the court sanctioned it and the legislation that followed (under Jimmy Carter-?) approved it.
"Evangelicals Say Faith is Now too Political"
I would go further than that and state: The Bible itself is political.
1. The Bible speaks of life being a gift from God.
2. The Bible warns those who would harm a little child.
3. The Bible condemns sexual immorality (of all kinds).
4. The Bible presumes the reality of moral absolutes.
5. The Bible declares that there is only one way and one truth.
6. The Bible admonishes Christians to teach others the truth.
7. The Bible calls Christians to cry out repentance.
8. The Bible promises persecution as a result of its politically incorrect message.
yes, evangelicals are too political. in order to get votes or get higher approval numbers the president & candidates are using god. that is dangerous. like in daniel 3 if the people do not ride with the policies of a certain party they are labeled leftist or unpatriotic & very soon it might not be labelling but torture or human barbecue.
Hi, folks. America was founded on the principle that it's government would be by the people, of the people and for the people. The real question is just who are these people? If, in fact, our nation is made up of born again people who live what the Bible say then our government would reflect those principles.
Guess what...if you don't like what you see in the mirror you need to change what's in front of it. As a Christian, I am my faith. It is my life. Therefore, it is my politics. Every area of my life is to be based on Biblical principle. If even half the people who called themselves Christian would love the Lord with all their heart, soul and mind, and love their neighbor as themselves then our government would look much different. There is no law against loving as the Lord loved others and doing so is never too political.
Note: I realize politicians didn't create the internet. What I'm saying is that when evil things are widely available, they are widely used. If politicians are able to limit availability of those things, it delays the corrupting influence of them and thus does good in way that matters to God.
eahaddix:
"How do external acts like electing politicians and passing legislation change the internal state of men?"
By restraining evil. Take pornography as an example. Before it was widely available, fewer people looked at it, they were older when first exposed, and the looked at it less often. Now because of the internet, it is ubiquitous and people are exposed to it even unintentionally. Because of its prevalence, the idea of "normal" sexual behavior has changed--studies show that people who use it estimate that certain behaviors occur at a much higher frequency than they actually do, and that these numbers go up with regularity of use. (source: Pornified book).
When you have leaders that restrain availability of harmful material, they retard the corruption of society. (There are other useful things they can do as well, but I focused on one example).
Besides, there are good things that good leaders can do that don't affect the heart as much but are nonetheless good, like improving education (so young minds can grow in knowledge of God's creation in all its various aspects), improving transportation (so that people aren't idle and have more time to do what matters, and also to protect God's earth from pollution), improve the economy (so that people can provide for their families without dependence on aid), and improve judicial efficiency and fairness (so wrongs are righted and obligations are honored). These things, while perhaps not heavenly concerns, are no small matters and should not be dismissed so nonchalantly.
Wake up holly rollers, Satan is after us. We better start talking politics, or the persecution will go into full swing. Our politics and culture is amoral, and anything goes. The absence of morality and mercy is the secular dream and a cosmic dark age.
Faith is the most powerful weapon we have against the non believers and minimumwage employees of satan. Faith is our belief in GOD as individual children as we relate to our true father. That is a very personal relationship and no matter what anyone says; I care not how many degrees in bible or theology or whatever you have. You are, They are wrong to call Faith political.
Please hear me when I say their robes, age, shiny hats, and frilly gold robes and gray hair mean nothing. It does not if they preach such lies.
GOD and belief in God and our private relationship that energizes our souls and gives us spiritual strength and unconditional love. THAT IS FAITH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anything else is the words of SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
truthprevailsalways: “Just make sure you get out and vote against the those who want to cause this country more immorality!”
How do external acts like electing politicians and passing legislation change the internal state of men?
Correction: The Scriptural reference for the Second Greatest Commandment should be Matthew 22:34-40, not Matthew 18:34-40.
SqueakyWheel: “Part of loving one's neighbor is to be an advocate for policies that are fair, just, & moral.”
Not necessarily. You are selectively equivocating the spirit of the Second Greatest Commandment (ref. Matthew 18:34-40) with one possible application of the Second Greatest Commandment, thereby creating an unnecessarily narrow definition of the Second Greatest Commandment.
For instance, one “born again” believer could perceive the Second Greatest Commandment as an impetus to do a lifetime of charitable evangelistic work in Africa. However, another “born again” believer may perceive the Second Greatest Commandment as an impetus to do a lifetime of political advocacy or political activism. So, SqueakyWheel, would you admonish the former individual to conform themself to the latter individual? If yes, then by what basis would you consider the latter application of the Second Greatest Commandment more “correct” than the former application of the Second Greatest Commandment or any other application of the Second Greatest Commandment?
SqueakyWheel: “Jesus threw out the moneychangers from the temple, which was quite counter-cultural for that time.”
So? Doing one countercultural act does not automatically make the doer of the said act a political advocate or a political activist.
lewr2: “Go unto all the nations = Culture”
Out of context Scriptural phraseology, lewr2. You are using the Scriptural phraseology “go unto all the nations” without any Scriptural context, thereby allowing you to use your own ideological presuppositions as a substitutionary context for this Scriptural phraseology.
Perhaps you would like to try again, such as in arguing *from* a Scriptural prooftext like Matthew 28:19 or Mark 16:15?
continued
8For this reason at that time certain (H)Chaldeans came forward and (I)brought charges against the Jews.
9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: "(J)O king, live forever!
10"You, O king, have (K)made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to (L)fall down and worship the golden image.
11"But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire.
12"There are certain Jews whom you have (M)appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up."
13Then Nebuchadnezzar in (N)rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.
14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve (O)my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?
15"Now if you are ready, (P)at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well But if you do not worship, you will immediately be (Q)cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and (R)what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
daniel 3:4-7
4Then the herald loudly proclaimed: "To you the command is given, (D)O peoples, nations and men of every language,
5that at the moment you (E)hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe and all kinds of music, you are to fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king has set up.
6"But whoever does not fall down and worship shall immediately be (F)cast into the midst of a (G)furnace of blazing fire."
7Therefore at that time, when all the peoples heard the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations and men of every language fell down and worshiped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
this is what happens when church & state / politics & religion unite.
The only Godly man running for President is Alan Keyes check him on the issues. You will be pleased.
http://www.alankeyes.com/pledge.php?signers=1
Just make sure you get out and vote against the those who want to cause this country more immorality!
Part of loving one's neighbor is to be an advocate for policies that are fair, just, & moral. Steps towards fulfilling the Greatest Commandment involves the living out the Gospel in our culture. Jesus threw out the moneychangers from the temple, which was quite counter-cultural for that time.
"Where does Jesus command us to become involved in culture wars? (I don't think being "salt and light" qualifies, by the way"
Go unto all the nations = Culture
Not one jot or tittle shall pass away = The ENTIRE bible not just parts one likes, but all of it. Inside the bible there are many references to how we are to behave. What our lives are supposed to be, and that we are to exhort one another to do so.
So, Christ stood up against that each and every day. And, that is being salt and light. If Xians don't tell others, then how much do I actually love someone? If I love my children, I tell them that the fire is hot and not to touch it.
"All too often we have attacked the evils and injustices of others," they wrote, "while we have condoned our own sins." They argue, "we must reform our own behavior."
It was Jesus himself who told us that we need to consider the beam in our own eye before even looking at the splinter in somebody else's eye.
Christianity is as important in politics as anything else. But Christianity has to maintain its peculiar identiity instead of becoming like the secular world.
Where does Jesus command us to become involved in culture wars? (I don't think being "salt and light" qualifies, by the way)
It took them this long to realize this? Oh well the important thing is that it seems people are starting to wake up and see the sad state of our churches. Lets do something about it. woot repentence!
I agree the issue of "faith" is getting watered down. Sen.s Clinton and Obama, self-professed Christians, have spent a lot of time talking about their faith and have not focused on Jesus the Christ as their Savior and Lord. Would be politically correct? A recent Gallup Poll reported 82% of Americans claim their faith has ties to Christianity. Our nation needs a leader who will stand for Christainity and stand up for Christians and be guided by the Holy Spirit, but this does not even happen in my dreams anymore.
Hope Page: itsallaboutjesusnotme.blogspot.com