A report by scientists Wednesday claiming that they have successfully cloned monkey embryos and extracted stem cells from them has religious bioethics groups concerned over impending human cloning.
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Stem Cell Advance in Cloned Monkey Embryos Renews Human Cloning Debate
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Thu, Nov. 15 2007 08:54 AM EST
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Comments
Prophet,
As I have stated before, BobC is a troll and needs to be treated as such. We just need to ignore him. If he wants to go to hell as bad as he does then let him.
Bob has not said a single intelligent thing while on this site, not once. He is a bigot, plain and simple.
Also to any that believe that these subjects are pretty easy to get side-tracked to other subjects that SOME have no relation to the ORIGINAL subject I personally have that in mind to personally,....not that its a wrong thing I`m just thinking out loud....
I forgot to address tiktaalik in my thoughts on the evolutionary theory - in spite of all the sensationalism, the jury is still out on this little fishy.
Don`t worry BobC,..there is jst ALOT of LOVE in the air right now,...which is a good thing,.no matter how one interpets it, do you agree,? (somewhat?) my personal mind see in another direction too,..incidentallty I have read Edgar Cayce and readings published by Dr. Raymond Moody and this is TOTALLY me personally by the way..
TRUTH......One can postpone,..overlook..deny,....disquise..etc.,..etc...the TRUTH but when it comes around in a 360% circle,....the TRUTH still remains the TRUTH no matter how different ways it gets cut,.chopped, diced,..fried,...cooked,..boiled,....No matter,..it still remains....follow me? I don`t profess to be the expert,...I just read and follow alot...
Evolution is still a theory. Darwin himself said that there should be 1000's of transitional forms easy to find if his theory was correct. None have been found.
On stem cells, a liver was produced from umbilical cord blood stem cells by british scientists last year. No one has produced anything yet from embryonic stem cells.
Oh, and you mean the earth isn't flat? Well, gosh darn anyway!
TokenSP yes I agree it won't change till a court case gets to the supreme court and hopefully they will correct the error.
Prophet-- His eyes have been veiled by the evil one so he snaps and snarls at those who try and show him the truth. He acts like one who is uncomfortable in the role he is playing but wasn't figure out how to get out of the dilemma he has put himself in so he spills out his hatred to all disagree with him even I fear those who believe in his god. Pray that God becomes very real in his life. May God Bless you all
In Christ
Tom
And you can tell by his conversation that he is just trying to get a rise out of us. His only goal is to goad us into saying something we shouldnt.
All i've heard from Bob is hate. I haven't heard him say a single mature thing from him since he's been on here.
If a Christian ever did provide any evidence he had some common sense, I would be the first to congratulate him. All I have seen here is constant denial of science and they don't even have any understanding about how our government works. Even when somebody patiently explains things to a Christian, it does no good. A Christian just is not able to understand anything. All they do is babble about their invisible friend, as if that's going to impress anyone. Some people just don't want to grow up.
That may be so, but it can only be changed if a case is brought to the supreme court and the supreme court has a change of heart, otherwise its law =/.
Just let him rant and rage, Tom. If he's trying to get us to become atheists he's doing a lousy job. I wouldn't want to be like him...full of hate and spite.
Hi Bobc still shrilling your stuff are ya. man I can't wait for God to shake your tree. God says I must love my enemies, Good thing to because quite frankly you are a bore, you really should take some lession from TokenSP. We may disagree on the very things we do with you, but at least he has some inherant decency when he puts his thoughts forth and as such deserves the respect of all. TokenSP i believe original intent is not the same as literal interpetation and I believe the writtings of most of the founding fathers would disagree with the systematic abolishment of all things religious in the public square that has been increasingly event since the estabishment of this what I will call fictious seperation of church and state ruling in 1947
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Thank you for the compliment, I just keep hearing about theres no separation of church and state in the constituion, and I have to shed light on the workings of our government =/.
Mhmm mhmmm, it wasnt an issue until 1947 and if the constitution was taking literally then yes there would be no such thing... but it isnt, and I doubt the supreme courts powers will be taken away
TokenSP, I noticed atheists (including you) have a lot of common sense about many things, while theists seem to have no common sense at all. Their belief in an invisible man in the clouds is not their only problem. They deny many scientific facts. They can't even understand how their own government works. I suppose if a person does believe in a magical universe boss, he would have a defective brain, which would make understanding anything extremely difficult.
TtokenSP no offense taken I wasn't speaking to you as such, one day, prehaps you will feel Him calling. As far as the Consititution is concern The letter Jefferson wrote was a privite letter to a Church that was concerned about the Govement intruding on it's right to believe the way they do. Thomas Jefferson was writting them to tell them not to worry. There was no wall of seperation of Church and state till 1947 as you claimed. My question to you is where was it till then? It was extermely common and accepted that the Bible, prayer, were part of the everyday life of most people in the Untited States in fact it was used as the main text book for well into the 20th century for some schools, when the supreme court building on the 47 decission said it was unconstituional. I guess. If you believe the Consistution is a living breathing document then you would readly accept the changes that have been made in error. if you believe in orginal intent then this finding in 1947 is flat out wrong. depends on your prospective. I want to thank you for your well reasoned and thoughtful arguements with out the insults and put downs. It makes for a wonderful debate and dialog. may God reveal Himself to you sir.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Lol... i actually like that bill... but see congress is allowed to pass ANY legislation it wants any bill it wants they can do what ever the hell they want.... but if some outrageous bill ever goes to the supreme court, then the supreme court will say this law is unconstitutional, and the law has to be removed. This is another thing the supreme court does.... and they've been doing it... and you know you are right you do have a right ot be afraid... you see lots of laws can be unconstitutional and still be enforced, its not until someone sues that it becomes unconstitutional... and thats what a lot of atheists are trying to do now, they are trying to take a lot of cases to court in order to show its unconstitutionality... and then more restrictions would be imposed upon christianity in government... Im thinking though that maybe atheists arnt taking this route because they are scared that the supreme court may rule against them or change the rule of separation of church and state... that would be horrible for the atheist cause =/.
that's still sounding a lot like Hitler. But all kidding aside, yes, if tomorrow the supreme courts said that it was illegal to have a church service, it would cause an uproar. But then, 25 years ago, the idea of homosexual "marriages" was unheard of, much less even thought to be an issue. It only takes a few short years for things to change...
lol... the supreme court has been doing this since john marshall established judicary review. John Marshall was one of the very first? Supreme court judges, and he established the power of the supreme court... it has been around since the beginning of our country, and dont worry.. they do have christian judges up there so you dont need to worry about the judges overtaking the country and making it an atheistic country...
"I wouldnt be afraid of it." Sounds similar to Hitler as he ws building up his military.
And that makes sense... they were probably refering to some of the more unorthodox religions, such as mormons marrying many women instead of one.. law is allowed to interefere with this.. or say if a religion says we are to sacrafice a baby, law is allowed to interfere...
Lol again, they wouldnt.... if they did the country would be in an uproar and the supreme court would be booted out. But theoretically speaking yes they could do that =/.
It would be scary if you consider it but, actually the supreme court has done a very good job of keeping themselves in check, they almost never contradict themselves and always respect the decisions of the past... sometimes though they do change their opinions, and when they do they do poooint out "well I know that in the past the supreme court says this but actuallly... the constitution says this..." Heh, theyve been just about it... it is rather remarkable the supreme court.. I wouldnt be afraid of it.
The Court said, "Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious beliefs and opinions, they may with practices." Wow! Now that leaves a lot open to "interpretation". Under that guise, the court could find that meeting for church is illegal. Does that sound unthinkable? It's just right around the corner.
No offense Tom, but that view of atheists is totally unfounded... we have no fear of God, we dont even believe in him... We are not secretly crying out for anything =/. If I told you, "I know you dont believe in Santa Claus but he loves you and he wants you to come to him, so that he may bring you toys for christmas" You would think it absurd... if you seriously try to see the parallels in these two cases you would realize... we are not angry at something we dont believe in... I dont hate God, itd be like hanting santa claus. For what reason have I to hate Santa Claus? He has done nothing to me... God has done nothing to me...
You said they changed the constitution...the way you phrased it is that it said one thing, so they changed it to say another. Small difference but a difference at any rate.
I did a study into what you said, and I stand corrected. What scares me the most is that the constitution, as is read, is nothing of what it means with all the changes and such, that are not put into the constitution itself. If you don't like something about the constitution then go in and change it...don't make a half a million supreme court rulings and "interpretations" and place them in some obscure place where the average person can't find them. Now, you've got 70 pages of mumbo jumbo on one amendment alone that could be avoided if they would just change the amendments themselves.
Ah Bobc there you go again. All competent Biologist? No Debate in the scientific communty?
Come on Bobc where do you live. There are hundreds of people who study this for a living that would disagree with you. and you get to decide who is competent or not. Bobc the Bible says fear of the Lord is the beginng of wisdom. You want some wisdom Bobc, Bible says to ask for it and you will get all you want. But it wouldn't be the wisdom of the world, it will be His wisdom you will recieve. This God also says that nobody comes to Him unless he draws him and He draws everyone one time or the other. He's drawing you to Him now sir, He is knocking on your door trying to get your attention. I think He has. That's why all the anger and hatered to all that is good and righteous and true. He won't force you Bobc it is always your choice. Jesus said He would set you free and He will. But I need to warn you though, It won't be easy you will be hated by some laughed at by other much like yourself now. But it is only because men deep down inside are crying out for God, just like yourself. We can see your cry even if you don't. Maybe someday those people will be able to shut us up, much like you would want to do, but you see the stone would then cry out and has. It is interesting what Philippians says Bobc, it says one day all will bend the knee at the name of Jesus and all will confess Jesus as Lord. everybody Bobc. Go ahead and look it up it's Philippians 2 verse 10-11, for some it will be to late for other, maybe even yourself one day, it will be a celebration like none we have ever seen before. gee I hope you will be there Bobc, I know He does.
may God bless you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Separation of church and state goes as far back as Thomas Jefferson who wrote in a letter to some people of the wall of separation of church and state. A court case more recently, interpreted the first amendment as separation of church and state, the court case was in 1947 named Everson v. Board of Education.
and the judges probably did use equal protection of law.... and the famous case is Brown V Board of Education, Browns daughter wanted to go to a white school, there was complications, he sued, it went to the supreme court, they said that the school had to accomodate her because she was protected under the 14th amendment... etc etc.... you may look it up if you please
lol. I never said that the constituion said always equal, im saying the supreme court made it that way... let me try to explain this... ok so a black man in the south back in the day wasnt allowed to vote... or sit in the bus... so they said well this isnt fair, cant I sue them for something? So they tried to use the 14th amendment for their case, and the local judge said nope you have no rights in this case and scenario.... so the man said... well how do you know what the 14th amendment says? so he appelas to the appellate court, which is a state court that works under the supreme court... the appellate court says the same thing.. no rights.. so the man goes well im not leaving till my case gets fair chance, so he appeals to the supreme court, at which point the supreme court says, 'WELL SIR! i think the 14th amendment says this this this and this, so thats why you arnt given any rights' and what ever discription the supreme court gives of the 14th amendment is now what the 14th amendment is supposed to be viewed as... when segregation ended, the supreme court said basically that the 14th amendment says that we are to be equal.. they say it implies this it doesnt explicitly say this, because the constitution was meant to be general to cover a broad amount of cases and scenarios... and the founders of our country left it to the supreme court to make it more specific, and that is what they do.. they make the constituion which is very broad, and they narrow it down to specific cases, and then all the courts around the country are to act accordingly to what the supreme court says...
when did they make this change? what year?
unless he speaks of "equal protection of the laws"
The first part of the 14th amendment (which Token speaks of) says "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." I don't see the words "always equal" in there, so maybe he could clarify what he's talking about.
An example, the 14th amendment was passed after the civil war, but segregation still roamed rampid but it was not until the supreme court changed their intrepetation of the amendment from "Separate but equal" to ALWAYS equal, did segregation end... segregation ended in America because of the SUPREME court... they changed the constitution, and so segregation had to end.
This is called judicial review and it was determined in the very very beginning in one of the first court cases, that the supreme court has the power to do this. No one questions this, and they have been a very VERY important asset to changing american society to what it is today.
Woah Woah Woah... The constitution can be changed in two ways, it can be amended, or it can be interpreted by the supreme court. ANYTHING the supreme court says, ANYTHING, and it becomes the new constitution. That is the power that was given to them, and our country has loyaly followed that since the very beginnning. Anyone who has studied American politics would know that of the supreme court.
as i said...there is no separation between church and state in the constitution. therefore, to deny my right (or anyone elses) to worship, pray, speak, or write to/about God is unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional that courts cannot place the Ten Commandments on their wall. Whatever "interpretation" the supreme court holds, it does not change the constitution. Why do you think that religion was placed in the same amendment with free speech...to avoid situations like this. But someone decided that their version of the constitution is all that mattered. Even though the amendment is plain and simple about it. There is no "interpretation".
Separation of church and state is a term phrased by the supreme court, they are just as much the law of the land as the constitution, becaue they are the interpreters...
Bob...as i told you in the other chat room...there is no separation of church and state anywhere in the constitution.
da6383ma, What I pay attention to are not what you called "teachers and Scholars". I study evidence. There's tons of it for evolution and that's why all competent biologists accept it. There is absolutely NO debate about whether or not evolution is a fact in the scientific community. Every competent biologist has agreed evolution is fact for more than a century because of the EVIDENCE.
Tom, will you cut it out with the God garbage. That stuff is meaningless gibberish to me.
Also BobC,...I realize your education is probably 7 times more involved than mine,...and some things I personally will probably never understand or agree with.....and you probably spent countless hours learning from your teachers and Scholars,.. and would probably go to the "End of the Earth" for to follow their doctrines,....May G-D bless and its a wonderful thing (personal opinion) but thats what in my soul makes "Crossfire" such a great thing.....
da6383ma I am sorry we have drifted away from the debate you were looking for. Forgive
In Christ
Tom
Hi Bobc your showing your wisdom again. I have read the Consistution several times studied it a bit and the wall of seperation of church and state isn't there. Wasn't till someone in 1947 found it in there, I wonder o wisdom of the world where was it all that time? I actuall wouldn't mind getting a job with the discovery institute. They at least are looking and searching for the truth, that's what Christians do. Why they even encourage debate, ain't afraid of it. You know I am not afraid to stand up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I really don't care what you think of me. I have a hard time putting any value on your and your whole attitude until I remember what Jesus said.
" For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him may be saved" So you do have value Bobc, despite the hardness of your heart which breaks mine a bit. It is obvious that you are fighting not against Christian but against this God we believe in. You do have value even to us as Christian, to Jesus because He died for you and to God because your still here on earth. may God open your heart so you will have a glimso of His love for you.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
To all concerned,.....EVERYONE...thinking out loud again, me,....It sure seems like there was alot better human thought structure across the board was ALOT MORE easy to follow when the "hicks" ( sorry BobC,..I had to) ran things on a more broad basis than now,(I`m just 46 years old,..I can imagine how someone older than I feels) I understand the Intellect point of view,..and it seems to be a pretty noble cause until things start "Going South" for better use of my personal vocabulary that everyone gets stuck with a not so good product because something happened or did`nt happen in Human choice of how to follow "Modern Science"....Just thinking out load again,....I mean pull out all the records information from the beginnings of human history til now,.....I see alot of improvement in technology but too many other things fall by the way side,..(personal opinion)......
Tom, read the First Amendment.
You're doing a great job of lowering my already low opinion of Christians. You lie about evolution. You lie about our wall of separation. You believe there's an invisible man living in the clouds. If you have any value at all, I sure I have seen no evidence of it. You should try to get a job working with the lying thugs at the Discovery Institute. You would fit in just fine there.
yes you are getting close. There are many who study DNA that says evolution is impossible and there many who study the fossil record who would call you a liar. By your refusal to let a teacher teach all aspect of the debate makes them commit a bigger sin. They are teaching your religion your dogma. By you using an incorrect reading of the Constitution to stifle debate is a even bigger lie. There is no wall of seperation of chruch and state in the Constitution. What does that make your sir? Scripture is true then. "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scripe? where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? Your arguments and the harsh word behind them show your wisdom my friend. What are you so afraid of my friend that you can't let people gain knowledge about all side of an issue? Most who know that there is a Creator and a Savior don't mind being taught about things of interest all the differant world views. what we find is that it enhances and makes our beliefs stronger. Again what are you afraid of sir.
May God Bless you with wisdom that comes from Him and may your eyes be opened and the veil be lifted.
In Christ
Tom
"Again there is no evidence for one species morphing into another nor any fossil record of a species half way in between."
There's plenty of DNA evidence the creationists don't understand but lie about anyway. The fossils are not even necessary but there's plenty of fossils the creationists are constantly lying about. Maybe if the flat-earthers didn't spend so much time constantly lying about everything, they might learn something. But they don't want to learn anything. They are terrified of knowledge.
Here's one my favorite fossils the creationists pretend doesn't exist or they say "Duh, it's just another animal the magic man made out of nothing". Explain tiktaalik. Most likely you will have no problem repeating lies about tiktaalik. There's a big business in god-soaked America called "Lying for Jesus". The worst professional liars for Jesus are the thugs who work for the Discovery Institute. Go to their website for lies about anything you want, including tiktaalik.
"...I ask in turn that we who believe in a Creator be able to present our arguements as well. Whether it be in the public square or public schools."
There's 2 reasons we keep Mr. Creator and Genesis out of science classes. One reason is our wall of separation between Church and State. The most important reason is it is immoral to force a science teacher to lie to her students. One of my favorite scientists explained it better than I ever could.
Creation science has not entered the curriculum for a reason so simple and so basic that we often forget to mention it: because it is false, and because good teachers understand exactly why it is false. What could be more destructive of that most fragile yet most precious commodity in our entire intellectual heritage -- good teaching -- than a bill forcing honorable teachers to sully their sacred trust by granting equal treatment to a doctrine not only known to be false, but calculated to undermine any general understanding of science as an enterprise?
-- Stephen Jay Gould
'Attack of the Killer Clones' comes to mind... or Planet of the Apes...
The ironic thing is... with those who preach for these stem cells and how it is going to 'cure all' as some say... as far as I know, they have not cured one thing with these cells... now cloning on the other hand... I wonder... if the genetics and dna are the same... would the individual have the same soul and/or conscience?
Kind of like the question about a brain transplant I guess... crazy stuff
Gee Bobc and here I thought you were learning some manners, Stems cells are a great resources for ways to help cure or slow the many differant deseases, but not at the expense of human life. Are you aware o great learned one of the many success of adult stem cells and recently stem cell from umbilcal cords there is no need to kill human life in such a manner as you advocate. Again the massive amount of evidence you talk about isn't there. Again there is no eveidence for one species morphing into another nor any fossil record of a species half way in between. Your childish name calling is unbecoming of one who claims to know so much it is apparent you know not because you seek not. May Gods Bless you and yours.
In Christ
Tom
Ah Bobc There seems to be a misunderstanding, i welcome modern science, look at what it has done. The average life stand has increased sigificantly. Our over all health is better then anytime in history, (except of cousre in the Garden). I have been amazed at the lifestlye we live, one that is comfortable for most people and far better then a lot of people in far away counties. so it is not science that I am afraid to embrace. While I welcome open debate on most subjects I ask in turn that we who believe in a Creator be able to present our arguements as well. Whether it be in the public square or public schools. All sides should be presented whether or not they equate with religion or not. To learn one needs to hear the arguement for and against. Then be allowed to make the choice of who is correct or not base on the evidence. But it seems Bobc that your side of the issue is not willing to do that. You cry foul and claim seperation of church and state with out realizing that your world view can and is consisder a belief system as well, a religion if you will. Differant god but believed in just as strong as those of us who believe in Christ and may I say, in some fields of which is called science with less overall evidence.
May Gods Blessing fall on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
"a record of human INTENT of how they CHOOSE to follow Modern Science since the First page of Genesis"
I'm sorry for getting this thread off-topic, but perhaps the denial of evolution has a lot to do with other anti-science ideas like calling the extraction of stem cells from embryo clones to save lives "unethical". It seems Christians are constantly at war with science, and not just the science of evolution. This war against science, even when it could cost human lives, is giving Christians a terrible reputation, but Christians don't seem to care too much about their reputation, which would explain their constant lying about evolution.
The myths in Genesis are a big part of the problem. I'm convinced many Christians are terrified of anything that conflicts with Genesis. Millions of Christians have no problem at all accepting the fact humans are an ape species, but probably most Christians will deny evolution the rest of their lives, no matter how much the already massive evidence for it keeps growing. Their fear of evolution has a lot to do with their belief humans are God's special creation. They believe they are completely separate from nature, and only humans get to go to the wishful thinking called heaven. The flat-earthers believe evolution means no heaven. The creationists are cowards who can't accept the reality they have only one life, so they will fight evolution, lie about evolution, brainwash their children with lies about evolution, and try to suppress the teaching of evolution, for the rest of their wasted lives.
And also BobC I just now read your posting in being afraid of Modern Science which I personally believe is besides the point here,...Its more an issue to me personally of a record of human INTENT of how they CHOOSE to follow Modern Science since the First page of Genesis
To BobC and Tom,...thanks,.I can see this is gonna be good and educational on alot of levels,(personal opinion) BobC though,..Sir,..there sure does seem to be quite a few "hicks" out there with all the debating and possible misunderstandings one reads about and whatever other resource used for obtaining information,.etc,...so with that in mind is this information intended for all that ALSO want to research and act like they care about the subject,...Or more for a cottage group of Intellectuals that actually KNOW the bio-engineering involved here? If malicness was taken, there was none intended on my part,....Have a joyous week-end and happy T-day to you......
"In Christ" "Tom"
What is it about the belief in Christ, that makes people so afraid of modern science?
Hey Bobc do you ever read your post. It is amasing how insecure you appear to be. I am one of those flat landers who doesn't believe in evolution as preach by Darwin. There are other more highly educated then myself that have studied this for years that would agree. Judging by the language you use and you use of put downs and cuts you may need to do some educating yourself. You are giving your religion a bad name. Oh by the way does this asseration you make in your opening statement mean the killing of human life also. If it does then you are as bad as Hiltler,Stalin, Pol Pot and the rest of them that where so full of hatered to those who believe differant then yourself you willing acted out the wishes of the evil one.
May God Blessing fall on you and yours.
In Christ
Tom
"unethical scientific practices" It would be unethical to not do everything possible to save people's lives.
There was an article about this in today's 11/15 Wall Street Journal. There was a paragraph that reminded me of the flat-earthers who deny evolution. Here it is: "Scientists have since cloned cows, cats, dogs, mice and other species, but never a monkey - a far closer evolutionary cousin to humans."
The Wall Street Journal is an extremely conservative newspaper and even they take for granted humans are cousins of monkeys. The flat-earthers who deny evolution should grow up and accept modern science instead of acting like the hicks they are.
....Of "Mice and Men",...I kinda follow it ,.. Hopefully there will be a lot of comments on this article from different "Research groups" maybe inclusive of the ENDA so the LORD will reward me with a broader understanding of the subject material being discussed......