Oklahoma Rep. Sally Kern (R-Oklahoma City), who said that the homosexual lifestyle is a bigger threat to American than terrorism, faced off against an openly gay pastor Easter Sunday in a debate on homosexuality that delved into politics and theology.
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State Rep. Kern, Openly Gay Pastor Spar Over Homosexual Lifestyle
By
Katherine T. Phan
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Mar. 26 2008 07:05 PM EDT
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quack quack quack ..sally kern is a tired old fool...her hate will make her a one term legislator.... pllus ... she has a gay son....More Hypocracy from the same old hypocrites
quack quack quack ..sally kern is a tired old fool...her hate will make her a one term legislator.... pllus ... she has a gay son....More Hypocracy from the same old hypocrites
Sally Kern is leading a nonsensical battle and I am ashamed that she calls herself a Christian. With her words, she is telling gays they cannot also be Christian, and that is shameful to Jesus. God wants Christians to bring everyone closer to him, not pass judgment. How can she point out the splinter in other's eyes when she cannot see the tree in her own?
feetxxxl - you asked why do I say it is sin if the "two" who are in the loving relationship are of the same sex, since there is no "evident" sin in it. God made man and woman to become 1 flesh, homosexuality is opposed to God's design, it couldn't be more clear as to why it is a sin and it is quite obvious in the natural world and in scripture.
my reasoning is scriptural and my witness is in and thru fellowship in christ.
feetlxxx--
Never in all my life have I seen such obtuseness combined with such an obstinate refusal to either hear the Word of God, or to keep it. How many Christians here on this board, and other threads I've seen, have rebuked you for your willful, stubborn refusal to hear? You have "itching ears" and you are following a false doctrine that you either heard from someone else, or that you made up yourself. I've never seen anything like it. You have Christian after Christian showing you your error plainly but you refuse to see or to hear.
As for me, I have nothing left to say to you, I'm "shaking the dust off my feet" and "shaking my cloak out" at you, metaphorically speaking, and I'm done. It's wasted effort at this point. Only the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit can help you now. Pray for God's guidance, grace and mercy. You seem to be a very, very lost and troubled soul and you need his grace and mercy more than anything.
As believers we know that we are created in His image; "male and female He created them." Also, the God-given covenant of marriage between a man and woman mirrors the relationship between Christ and His church. As the church we are His bride.
God did not create another male to be Adam's help-meet, Jesus did not say that "a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his husband" and the church is Christ's bride, complete with all the female connotations that reside therein.
MATTHEW 19:11 GIVES DISPENSATION FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO BOND WITH THE SAME SEX. IT IS A SPIRIT MESSAGE FOR ALL TIME AND IS NOT LIMITED BY LEGALITIES.
OPP. SEX MARRIAGE EMBODIES A SPIRIT RELATIONSHIP THAT MIRRIORS THE RELATIONSHIP OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH.. EXPLAIN HOW MARITAL SEXUAL RELATIONS OF THEMSELVES MIRRIORS THAT SAME RELATIONSHIP?
A relationship of the type that you are espousing (other than man-woman) seeks to warp the image which God made of Himself and dishonors the groom-bride relationship expressed in Christ being groom to the church. In pursuing such a non-biblical model for human relationships, God's very image is mocked. ...and "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
ANYTHING THAT IS OF THE SAME SPIRIT AS ANOTHER, IN SPIRIT IS EQUAL TO THE OTHER.. THE IMAGE OF GOD IS NOT ABOUT FORM, BUT ABOUT SPIRIT.
I BOTH MARRIAGES BOND IN THE SAME SPIRIT., AND THE SEXUAL INTIMACY IN BOTH IS AN AFFIRMATION AND AN EXPRESSION OF THAT LOVE AND DEVOTION.
However since you seem to wish to engage in verbal jousting so be it...
You are pushing the faulty argument that as Christians walking in grace we are free to ignore the law and are thus concluding that the liberty derived from grace alone permits absolute license in matters previously mentioned in the law. Holding this view may be comfort for the deceived half-hearted pew-warmer hoping for fire insurance, but not for the truly obedient Christian who "studies to show himself approved"
He would find that Paul writes in Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!... even so we also should walk in newness of life."
IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE LAW SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN...................... I DISAGREE WITH YOU.
EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID WAS ABOUT THAT AS FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, WE NOW FULFILL THE LAW, AND NATURALLY IF WE FULFILL IT WE AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOW IT. BUT EVEN THRU FULFILLINGTHE LAW, WE DONT RECEIVE SALVATION.
GRACE IS SOMETHING WE RECEIVE THAT WE DIDNT PAY FOR OR EARN. WHATEVER GRACE, WE RECEIVE, WE RECEIVE THRU THE SPIRIT THAT LIVES IN US.
STUDIES IS WORKS. WE DONT RECEIVE SALVATION THRU WORKS. WORKS CAN BE AN INDICATION OF OUR DEPTH OF FAITH. THROUGHOUT HISTORY MANY PEOPLE STUDIED BUT MANY OF THOSE SAME PEOPLE MARTYRED THE SAINTS
HOW COULD WE POSSIBLY FULFILL THE LAW THRU SINNING?
Feet,
You're so torqued off about defending your pet sin that you aren't even reading straight! I did not post the comment that you seem to be responding to.
However since you seem to wish to engage in verbal jousting so be it...
You are pushing the faulty argument that as Christians walking in grace we are free to ignore the law and are thus concluding that the liberty derived from grace alone permits absolute license in matters previously mentioned in the law. Holding this view may be comfort for the deceived half-hearted pew-warmer hoping for fire insurance, but not for the truly obedient Christian who "studies to show himself approved"
He would find that Paul writes in Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!... even so we also should walk in newness of life."
As believers we know that we are created in His image; "male and female He created them." Also, the God-given covenant of marriage between a man and woman mirrors the relationship between Christ and His church. As the church we are His bride.
God did not create another male to be Adam's help-meet, Jesus did not say that "a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave unto his husband" and the church is Christ's bride, complete with all the female connotations that reside therein.
A relationship of the type that you are espousing (other than man-woman) seeks to warp the image which God made of Himself and dishonors the groom-bride relationship expressed in Christ being groom to the church. In pursuing such a non-biblical model for human relationships, God's very image is mocked. ...and "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
You persist in mental gymnastics and contortions of logic in order to continue pushing a biblical basis for your fantasy that God that somehow blesses your behavior because nowhere in the bible does it say explicitly "Feetxxxl, your behavior is sin".
You do so at your own peril. It would seem that you believe that if you can repeat it often enough, even though no one else will buy into your false doctrine, at least you'll further convince yourself.
You need prayer and you need to pray; pray for a renewed mind, pray for open eyes and pray that by the Holy Spirit's conviction and empowerment that you might repent of your slavery to this sin and walk in newness of life.
my opologies, i addressed my reply to the wrong person. it should have been john14-6
This isn't about "love", because what you are calling "love" is simply perverted lust, and it is in violation of the order of creation and it is a perversion of God's intent. "Male and female he created them", even Jesus restates this. Paul says that no one who engages in homosexual behavior will inherit the Kingdom of God, he also talks about men burning with lust for one another as "shameful" and he says that such desires and lust are the result of God abandoning a human being to their sin, giving them over to unnatural lusts. It is referred to as a *punishment from God*. He says the same thing about women engaging in sex with other women.
FIRST OF ALL YOU MAKE A STATEMENTS WITHOUT ANY FELLOWSHIP WITNESS.
IF WE WALK INTHE LIGHT AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT WE HAVE FELLLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER, WHAT LOVE OF CHRIST IS THERE THAT IS WITHOUT FELLOWSHHIP. ............................LOVE AT A DISTANCE?.............................WE DONT EVEN LOVE OUR ENEMIES THAT WAY.
THIS MAKES YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT LUST MERE OPINIONS. ARE YOU TRYING TO ESTABLISH LUST BY REGULATION.
" BECAUSE MY INTERPRETATION SAYS THERE'S LUST, IT MUST BE THERE. I HAVE NOT SEEN IT .........BUT BECAUSE OF MY INTERPRETATION I KNOW ITS THERE".
"THAT WHICH WE LOOKED AT, WE SAW WITH OUR EYES, AND OUR HANDS TOUCHED"
SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE ANY OTHER WAY OF MAKING A VALID WITNESS.
EXPLAIN HOW "MALEBED" MEANS HOMOSEXUALITY. .
MEN BURN WITH SHAME BASED LUST AND COMMIT OPPOSITE SEX ACTS. THAT DOESNT CONDEMN HETEROSEXUALITY, WHY SHOULD THE SAME CONDEMN HOMOSEXUALITY.
SHAME BASED LUST PROTENDS THAT THEIR IS NO BONDING, BECAUSE OF WHAT COMMITMENT THERE IS . IT IS TO THE LUST.
QUECAT
This is really getting old. Where is the "sin" in that? The sin is that they are violating the natural order of Creation that God set up from the beginning. The sin is that God instituted marriage between man and woman to procreate and raise a family. The sin is in equating two men engaging in anal sodomy (a filthy, deviant behavior) being equated with a man and a woman engaging in normal relations that are designed not only for pleasure, but for creating children. Are you really this juvenile? Do I need to explain it this simplistically and graphically? Do you even have a Bible? It can't be the same one I have.
(im using capital letters so you can see my answer easier)
SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT BY REGULATION, BY RULE , BY RULE ABOUT ORDER.
(ARE YOU CREDITING YOUR SELF WITH KNOWING THE MIND OF GOD )
SUCH A THING CANNOT BE OF GOD.
BUT, WE ARE NOT LIVING IN THE OLD RELATIONSHIP TO THE WRITTEN CODE, AND ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, WHICH THE LAW IS NOW USED TO POINT TO, MAKING US CONSCIOUS OFTHE SPIRIT THAT WE ARE EITHER LED BY OR GIVEN OVER TO(AS IN ROMANS)..
WHAT OTHER SIN OF COMMISSION IS THERE APART FROM THE SIN NATURE. PAUL IN ROMANS SAYS IT IS THIS SIN THAT DEMANDS THAT WE HAVE A SAVIOR IN ORDER TO BE UNITED WITH GOD.
SODOMY IS ABOUT THOSE SINS(OF COMMISSION) THAT WERE COMMITTED BY THOSE WHO LIVED IN SODOM.
THE FOLLOWING OF ANY REGULATION CAN BE DONE THRU ANY SPIRIT.
NOT SO, IN FOLLOWING CHRIST
"ABOMINATION" IS A WORD THAT IS USED LAVISHLY IN THE NKJ BUT NOT SO IN NIV. AND IT IS USED WITH WITH A NUMBER OF ACTS WHICH OF THEMSELVES ARE NOT SINS
Chris333,
I have to give you an "A" for effort. Heaven knows how many of us in these forums have engaged in this same discussion with "Feet"and others. Know that we're here agreeing with you.
Their hearts are hardened to the truth. They refuse to surrender that portion of their lives to the Lord, because they are unwilling to render obedience to God in the matter. They have convinced themselves of a convenient lie...convenient only to their carnal flesh.
2Th 3:13-15 "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother. "
Hbr 3:12-13 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."
Maranatha!
feetlxxx--
This is really getting old. Where is the "sin" in that? The sin is that they are violating the natural order of Creation that God set up from the beginning. The sin is that God instituted marriage between man and woman to procreate and raise a family. The sin is in equating two men engaging in anal sodomy (a filthy, deviant behavior) being equated with a man and a woman engaging in normal relations that are designed not only for pleasure, but for creating children. Are you really this juvenile? Do I need to explain it this simplistically and graphically? Do you even have a Bible? It can't be the same one I have.
This isn't about "love", because what you are calling "love" is simply perverted lust, and it is in violation of the order of creation and it is a perversion of God's intent. "Male and female he created them", even Jesus restates this. Paul says that no one who engages in homosexual behavior will inherit the Kingdom of God, he also talks about men burning with lust for one another as "shameful" and he says that such desires and lust are the result of God abandoning a human being to their sin, giving them over to unnatural lusts. It is referred to as a *punishment from God*. He says the same thing about women engaging in sex with other women.
Paul reiterates this sin in a list of sins in 1 Corinthians. It is called an "abomination" by God in Leviticus. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their rampant homosexuality (no, he did not destroy them because of their "lack of hospitality" or because the men of Sodom wanted to gang rape the two angels who arrived at Lots' house. God had already determined to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the angels arrived, and it was for their rampant sexual deviancy).
Why does any Christian need to explain this to you over and over? Why don't you pray over this and accept that you are WRONG, you are in error, and you are leading people into sin and violating God's Word with what you are pushing here. Accept the rebuke. I pray the Holy Spirit will convict you of your error and that you will repent and stop all this proselytizing for a sinful and shameful behavior. The fall occurred when the devil got Eve to question God's Word, with the words, "Did God really mean?..." You are doing JUST that here, you are saying, "Did God really mean?...". God's Word says homosexuality is abomination, it is shameful, it is deviant, and it is sin. Anyone who says otherwise is not speaking truth.
b0az
2 people people are married to each other , bonded thru mutual, love, attraction, respect , trust and devotion and their faith in christ. the sexual intimacy in the relationship is an affirmation and an expression of that mutual love,attraction, devotion,etc .
however both are of the same sex............ what or where is the sin?
paul says in gal5 the things of the sin nature are obvious, meaning that by there very nature they are self explanatory. so what is self explantory about the above situation. if you say it is because the bible says, then you are saying it is not self explanatory, and you are using the old relationship to the law in the old covenant, that we no longer have in the the new covenant.
in the new covenant our leading is by the spirit. what spirit in the above relationship is against the spirit of christ?
if there is no obvious sin(something that is self explanatory) then homosexuality is not of the sin nature, and therefore is not a sin.
Wow, this has gotten way off track, the bottom line is; is homsexuality a sin? If it is we should be willing to say so, along with pride, gluttony, adultery, idolatry and everything else that keeps us from walking with God.
you are confusing me
i gave you 1cor13 and 1john1 4:8 and you said who can say what love is. then when i gave you the three commandments you said you believed in love as defined by scripture
is that not 1cor13 and 1john 4:8?
what scriptural definition are you talking about?
gotta go!
"explain to me how saying the above is not also saying that he three commandments of love mean nothing?"
Feet,
I would ask you not to twist what I say, it is only kind. I was criticizing the blanket use of "God is love", you must qualify such a statement as "God is love". I have not rejected what the Bible has defined as love, I have rejected a gross modification of what the Bible says is love. Never in all the Bible does it say, "Love is happiness". Never in all the Bible are Homosexual relationships blessed. They are always looked down upon, and in a few places condemned or spoken of as sin/abomination. You failed to address the points I brought up, it is very poor debating on your part to not address what I have stated and to bring a new accusation in. Go back, address what I said (and am now saying) and then you can state your case. Otherwise I should just copy and paste.
This statement is worthless, who defines what love is? Who defines what is the proper form of love? Who defines what is right or wrong? The one standard is the Bible, which God has given us. God can be loving and against homosexuality. But you forget that God is also just. Anyways, why should we accept the 21st Century conception of love over the 1st Century's? I need a real argument.
explain to me how saying the above is not also saying that he three commandments of love mean nothing?
Feet,
"dont we all believe in the inerrancy of scripture affirmed by 1tim," that ALL scripture is god breathed""
Yes, we are debating your interpretation, which seems to go directly against Scripture.
"everything i have emailed has been annotated with scripture."
Big deal, satan used Scripture to try to give credibility to his side.
"i have explained why all scriptural verses that though mentioning same sex relations does not say that homosexuality is a sin"
So I suppose that being an abomination does not mean sin... give me a break. I am also going to need positive evidence, you have to show me a place in the Bible where homosexuality is blessed. I mean we can make the same outrageous claims about incest. i.e. "Oh, the Bible never says "LOVING" incestuous relationships are wrong." So what is the difference? You have relativized the Bible and put "MY" Jesus in the place of the real Jesus.
"you have given your understanding of the same scripture but have not confronted my challenge to your reasoning and are without a fellowship witness. "
Do you read what I write? Do you read what others write? I have many people who agree that homosexuality is wrong. Having people on your side doesn't matter, the truth matters. I could get some weirdos out there to approve of pedophilia, that doesn't make it right. Your standard is clearly your self, and your fellowship.
"you appear to give no credibility to 1cor13 and 1john 4:8"
No, I do give credibility to them, I just don't twist them to say what they don't.
"there is only one standard. that is the love that is god."
This statement is worthless, who defines what love is? Who defines what is the proper form of love? Who defines what is right or wrong? The one standard is the Bible, which God has given us. God can be loving and against homosexuality. But you forget that God is also just. Anyways, why should we accept the 21st Century conception of love over the 1st Century's? I need a real argument.
"do you think knowing (Jesus) comes from following a particular understanding of the law?"
No, what is your point? Are you saying that under the law homosexuality is wrong? If you are, then it is wrong and you have proved yourself a liar. If you are saying that NO law applies now, then we must accept loving incestuous relationships, as well as loving pedophilia relationships, as well as anything that defines itself as loving. You are undermining your own argument.
"my disagreement with you is, that you use scripture to condemn without any acknowledgement of the spirit that motivates the act you are condemning, nor the corresponding fruits of that spirit. "
I have said nothing hateful against homosexuals, I have condemned homosexuality, because the Scriptures tell me to hate sin. No I am not going to conform to "YOUR" Jesus, I am conforming to the actual Jesus.
in the 1500's germany was the first country to receive a bible translated in their own language.
at this same time luther posted his ninety five points and was held up as a national hero. however late in his life, luther's writings about the jews was so hostile and antisemetic that hitler used that to support his handling of the jews. at the time of the third reich the 2 national churches were catholic and lutheran, both of which were instrumental in getting hitler elected.
in the construction of the death comps 10's of thousands of contracts were required to build the camps. there is no record of any german company refusing a request to help build the camps. there is also no record of any soldiers refusing guard duty in those camps.
no german church head, including bonhoefer spoke out against hitler, publically.l
however what hitler wqs doing was common knowledge by the heads of all the allied govts. had one credible leader spoken out publically internationally, hitler would have closed down the camps. not one bomb or one shell of the allies was ever used to destroy the railroads that were transporting the jews. in truth it was worldwide antisemitic mindset that provided for the existence of the holocaust. but there were 50,000 believers and non believers in a country of 30 million, who attempted to hide the jews, many of which were executed for their efforts
who do you think is still, the biggest support group for having gone into iraq?
No, Christians didnt do that. Religious zealots did that. And it's sad when a group of people who claim to be christians do something stupid, that all of Christianity has to suffer.
WWI was started by pagans.
WWII was started by pagans.
Korean war....pagans
Vietnam war....pagans...
So far, being an unbeliever has a sucky track record.
"It was Christians, you know, not Pagans, who were responsible for the Holocaust. It was Christians, not Pagans, who lynched people here in the South, who burned people at the stake, frequently in the name of this Jesus Christ" Archbishop Desmond Tutu
"As shown by the political impact of religious fundamentalism and ethno-religious movements, religious difference is a main factor of contemporary social conflict on local, national and global level." Unesco: Management of Social Transformations Programme
<<If the Bible is not necessary for truth, and only your "Jesus" who lives in you, then what differentiates what "your" Jesus says, from what Pat Robertson's Jesus says as the truth? I can say, ""My" Jesus is telling me that homosexuality is evil, and the only way to love them is to show that it is wrong" and you can say, " "My" Jesus is telling me that homosexuality is good as long as they love each other" and Joe can say, " "My" Jesus is telling me that pedophile relationships and incestual relationships are good as long as they love each other">>
I'll respond to this with one or two of my hundreds of quotes to prove that what you are saying is so easily refuted.
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
<<You cannot just say, "Oh the Holy Spirit is leading me" and say something contradictory to the Bible.>>
Why not? Christians misinterpret and reinterpret the FAITH to suit their personal opinions all the time- I have hundreds of famous quotes recorded for centuries to prove it.
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them," Pat Robertson, Fundamentalist Christian tele-minister.
<<You completely destroy the standard of Faith that God set down, anyone can say, "Oh the Holy Spirit is leading me" why should I believe you? This is too much for me, I have to have a real argument. >>
What standard of faith? More like blatant hypocrisy. Again, I have hundreds of quotes...
"In Constantinople, more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in the years 342-343 than by all the persecutions by pagans in the history of Rome." Will Durant, writing in The Age of Faith
"Ministers" actually express your sentiments ALL the time. "Ministers" condemn assortments of people for whom they express their own indignancies with judgment while claiming God, Jesus and Holy Spirit agree. Again I have hundreds of quotes and an equal amount of personal observation that will prove my point.
"We have lobbed verses of Scripture, like hand grenades, into the camps of others, convinced we only have truth." Most Rev. George Carey, Archbishop of Canterbury
"In the Bible, the ones who were most certain about what they were doing were the ones who stoned the prophets." Bob Chell, University Lutheran Center
chris333
what are you talking about? dont we all believe in the inerrancy of scripture affirmed by 1tim," that ALL scripture is god breathed"
everything i have emailed has been annotated with scripture.
i have explained why all scriptural verses that though mentioning same sex relations does not say that homosexuality is a sin. i have annotated my explanation with scripture. and confirmed my understanding thru fellowship witness in christ with my believing brothers who are gay.
you have given your understanding of the same scripture but have not confronted my challenge to your reasoning and are without a fellowship witness.
your understanding about spirit is different from my own. you appear to give no credibility to 1cor13 and 1john 4:8
there is only one standard. that is the love that is god.
in the scripture, where jesus says i never knew you to those who cast out spirits in his name, do you think knowing him comes from following a particular understanding of the law?
my disagreement with you is, that you use scripture to condemn without any acknowledgement of the spirit that motivates the act you are condemning, nor the corresponding fruits of that spirit.
I attend a bible study led by a gay (formerly a pastor) woman - woho is studying for her doctorate in theology at one of the premier Christian Seminaries. The bible study is absolutely wonderful and the presence of the holy spirit in our group is unmistakable. All I know is that God is the judge...not me, not you. While I do not believe that gay people are sinners by their innate clearly bioligically driven preference, for those that do believe they are sinners I say "He who is without sin cast the first stone". Take the log out of your own eye before you try to take the speck out of another's.
Feet,
You said:
"my understanding is that there is only one "word of god". it is the covenant of christ , the spirit of christ, and christ himself who is god, whom the father put everything, under his authority. what "word of god" are you talking about?"
What does this statement mean? If the Bible is not necessary for truth, and only your "Jesus" who lives in you, then what differentiates what "your" Jesus says, from what Pat Robertson's Jesus says as the truth? I can say, ""My" Jesus is telling me that homosexuality is evil, and the only way to love them is to show that it is wrong" and you can say, " "My" Jesus is telling me that homosexuality is good as long as they love each other" and Joe can say, " "My" Jesus is telling me that pedophile relationships and incestual relationships are good as long as they love each other"
This is ridiculous and meaningless. You cannot just say, "Oh the Holy Spirit is leading me" and say something contradictory to the Bible. You completely destroy the standard of Faith that God set down, anyone can say, "Oh the Holy Spirit is leading me" why should I believe you? This is too much for me, I have to have a real argument.
gmg
all the teachings and proclamations that jesus made in the gospel was for all time. why do you attempt to limit their power with your legalizations? do you do this also with your relationship with triune god who lives within you?
john 16: 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
if the triune that lives us, is he not speaking to us? if he is speaking to us, is he not speaking to us about all truth.
how did the apostles speak to us about ethnic slavery, so that it took 1800 years before christendom openly acknowledged it was an intolerable evil.
if we are under grace, rather than the law, is not part of that grace, receiving spiritual understanding and vision that is not of our own doing, that we did not pay for or earn, and can only credit to the holy spirit that lives in us?
my understanding is that there is only one "word of god". it is the covenant of christ , the spirit of christ, and christ himself who is god, whom the father put everything, under his authority. what "word of god" are you talking about?
feet
>>>why would we not use the same process that determined jesus to be the christ, to also use it to determine what is of christ? <<<
John and the others, who walked with Christ in the flesh, gave us His Word already. That is our determiner. You just don't want to accept it.
Beginning last fall, I also addressed all your other issues, numerous times. As have many other people. You are like a broken record, playing the same things over and over.
feet, sin is sin. The Word of God covers these things. You have even tried to justify fornication, saying it has been "re-thought". Well, God is the same God, yesterday and today. The only thing that changes is people and their "feel right" philosophies. But God has not changed His tune since the beginning of time. He still has the same design for people as when He first created them. You go right ahead and embrace all your esoteric rambling to justify what you want to believe. As for myself, I think I'll stick with the design of the "I AM". It is to Him we must all answer, sooner or later.
gmg
kern gave the basis for her determining homosexuality a sin: her understanding of scripture the claims of narth, and long standing public consensus.
ii recall no claims of understanding thru having fellowshipped in christ with those she was condemning.
so what is your understanding of the limitations of:
if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of christ purifies us fromal sin.
you have yet to explain how something as damaging as incest and beastiality is comparable to homosexuality, the attraction to the same sex with the same spirit of bonding of mutual love,attraction, respect,and trust as is in opposite sex bonding.
why would we not use the same process that determined jesus to be the christ, to also use it to determine what is of christ?
feet
>>>kern has no such spirit witness. she admits to having friendly relationships with some homosexuals, but they are in her practicing her profession.<<<
How do you know this to be true, did you personally ask her?
>>>her claim wasnt. that having walked in their shoes and having carried their burdens, having prayed with them and witnessed their testimonies, having fellowshipped with them in the name of christ, she witnessed a consistent spirit of................. whose fruit i was .................and therefore in the spirit of christ who lives in her, she had to say that it was against loving your neighbor as oneself and the spirit of christ, and therefore a sin.<<<
So, to determine sin, we then walk with the sinner/non-sinner in fellowship to make a proper judgement? Would this apply to people in incestuous relationships, bestiality, things of this nature? Do we have to "walk in their shoes" then to determine sin?
>>>"that which we have looked , that our eyes have seen, and our hands have touched...........this we proclaim."<<<
John was speaking of his time WITH CHRIST on earth, and because of John's personal witness as a disciple of Christ, he had the authority to speak of the things Christ personally lived and taught. This in no way resembles what you are talking about relative to homosexuality.
<<@myTmuus said simply explains how sick we Christians have become. Both the opposing parties are guilty and its time to go back to the true Scriptures. As much as adultery is sin so does homosexual. One wrong doesn't make the other right. >>
I don't agree that "one wrong doesn't make the other right, and wasn't arguing in that direction. I was responding to what I thought were incindiary remarks; which were, <<I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.>>
Claiming that "No other SIN is as negative or blatant at commanding acceptance" as that poster has asserted, is clearly proven to be overshawdowed by the fact that heterosexual ADULTERY and/or GLUTTONY far more affect the Body of Christ, yet I rarely hear anyone taking a stand against them. Targeting homosexuals (which is just like targeting interracial marriages before the laws changed and made it unconstitutional,) is a church practice still protected and accepted as a way for many churches to legally discriminate AND blame God.
I am neither condemning nor excusing either homosexuality or adultery and gluttony. Nor am I pointing out those sins to stigmatize anyone. I'm merely pointing out, with my own anecdotes/experience, that in most Christian Churches that target homosexuality, GLUTTONY and ADULTERY are excused/glossed over/ignored. And I think it's because many pastors, leaders and congregants are divorced and remarried(clearly adultery according to the Bible) and/or gluttons(clearly sinners in need of repentance and change according to the Bible). Yet when was the last memorable sermon on those topics? I can't remember any. However I do hear lots of anti-gay sermons, anti-gay public discourse and I have seen Christian protesters with nasty anti-gay banners out marching anytime they "feel led."
there is no witness of active fellowship with homosexuals in the spirit. nor are there claims of knowing married homosexual couples. she made no mention of witnessing testimony of those that didnt support her claims, or having fellowshippped in the name of jesus christ, or having worshipped or lifted up christ with believers who didnt share her beliefs.
her claims came from living an isolated life from those she condemned, even though they shared the same inheritance
her claim wasnt. that having walked in their shoes and having carried their burdens, having prayed with them and witnessed their testimonies, having fellowshipped with them in the name of christ, she witnessed a consistent spirit of................. whose fruit i was .................and therefore in the spirit of christ who lives in her, she had to say that it was against loving your neighbor as oneself and the spirit of christ, and therefore a sin.
she gave no indication of any of this, and this is how we live being "led by" and "serving of the spirit" the spirit of the one who lives in us(romans) in the manner of 1john1.
"that which we have looked , that our eyes have seen, and our hands have touched...........this we proclaim."
.
@ifeelfine72, what @myTmuus said simply explains how sick we Christians have become. Both the opposing parties are guilty and its time to go back to the true Scriptures. As much as adultery is sin so does homosexual. One wrong doesn't make the other right.
Whoever gave myTmuus a thumbs down - explain yourself.
<<I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.>>
How limited is your worldview? ADULTERY is clearly accepted by the homophobic, cherry-picking cafeteria Christians I have attended church with my entire life. I in fact have sat under many adulterous pastors unknowingly only to have it revealed and found out many young men and women accepted into Christian ministry were adulterous. Doesn't the Law forbid adultery and Jesus considered the thought just as despicable?
A person who divorces and remarries another person is committing adultery. Why are Christian churches allowing this acceptance of adultery without social discourse in the manner which homosexuality is discussed?
Do Christian churches preach against GLUTTONY these days? My guess is NO! There are a lot of overweight Christians on this planet, I see them on TV broadcasted worship services and at rallies their against homosexuals.
Why are there no Christians marching in the streets against adultery and gluttony? Why aren't Christian pastors speaking out against adultery and gluttony? I think it's because they are both guilty, and their churches would be empty.
Would it be unfair in your opinion to ask the adulterous Christian to leave their second marriage in order to honor their first committment, thus end the adultery? Would it be unfair to ask the Christians gluttons to stop destroying their temple? I think they are essentially hypocritcal when they point out someone elses' sins and excuse their own.
“Kern’s comments also come at a time when the majority of today's young generation have a negative perception of Christianity…”
I did not know that the church was suppose to be run by polls as if Bill Clinton were the pope. LOL!
“Moreover, the overall number of membership of all Protestant denominations in America has declined over the last ten years by 9.5 percent, while the national population has increased by 11 percent.” (SBC Urges Members to Combat U.S. Church Decline
By Jennifer Riley)
“Kern’s comments also come at a time when the majority of today's young generation have a negative perception of Christianity – with 91 percent of young non-Christians and 80 percent of young churchgoers say present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual," according to a Sept. 2007 survey by The Barna Group.”
Many young people are acquainted with grace-filled homosexuals. Many others know that evolution occurs. Why would they be attracted to false, bigoted bombast?
Accept the repentant in Chrsitian fellowship? Most certainly!
Accept the UNrepentant as a brother? God forbid!
I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.
God calls it an abomination! Got a problem with it? Talk to Him.
In the mean time, excuse me if I reject your moral relativism.
Jud 1:5 "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this...
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner,
giving themselves over to FORNICATION, and
going after STRANGE FLESH, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Going after "strange flesh" = Greek 'sarx heteros" - literally lusting after "other men's bodies"
Jud 1:8 "Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers (beguiled by sensual images) defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities (God's majesty)
Jud 1:10-11a But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them!"
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION (porneia) , and all uncleanness, or covetousness, LET IT NOT BE ONCE NAMED AMONG YOU, AS BECOMETH SAINTS; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
FORNICATION is the selected English word translation of Greek 'porneia' - which is used to describe illicit sexual behavior/intercourse including adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1Cr 5:9-13 "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you MUST NOT associate with anyone WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."
wen we say that we are under grace it only means that we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. it doesnt mean that we can behave as if there is no law to follow. we still know that murder, stealing, lying, adultery is wrong and thats part of the moral law. when paul mentions law in the book of romans he does mention the gentiles who dont have the levitical law but when they keep the law (moral) they do Gods will. he also mentions abraham who goes way before the law of moses.
tamna--
Very well said! I couldn't agree more.
i finally saw part of the debate.
why is it, when there is a chance to confront these bigotted issues the people who do the confronting are so unfamiliar with the facts.
reverend jones..........paul made no differentiation in romans between moral, civil or ritual law. he said we are no longer under the law, all the law,every part of it, and instead we are now under grace.
and in regards to the moral law. the moral law under the old covenant said that slavery was an acceptable mechanism for the distribution of wealth and power. and it was, because of the limited human awareness of that time, the only other alternative for control of a conquered people would have been genicide. plus, rather than destroying a culture it allowed for a way to preserve it in the subjugation of a conquered people.
but since the time of christ, thru the testing of his spirit and the socializing of the human mind it has been deemed an evil, that is not to be tolerated. but guess what. it took 1800 years of unspekable suffering and degradation, before this conclusion was arrived at, about ethnic slavery. and it took a civil war and the cost of 2 million lives to institute this understanding into this country.
and the whole source for perpetrating this evil was from umitigated ignorance, reenforced by a corruption of the gospel.
kern without realizing it, is a classic example.
For me, this article boils down to two points as described in the following comment:
(1) "The Oklahoma City minister downplayed the scripture which referenced homosexuality,..."
In effect, this "minister" of the Word of God is acknowledging that the Bible (God's Word to mankind) directly discusses homosexuality and condemns it as a sin. Therefore, in order for open, unashamed, homosexual behavior to be accepted by the Church, God's Word has to be "downplayed."
(2) countering that Leviticus also contain passages that forbid wearing two cloths woven from two different seeds.
In an effort to deflect the main issue, which he apparently knew he could not support biblically, he attempted to construct straw-man arguments.
It seems this minister is a proponent of the theological position which states "Only believe in and follow those parts of God's Word that you happen to agree with, make you feel good, or let you wallow in your sin unconvicted."
And we are seeking answers as to why the Church is in decline in America.......
John 14-6
feetxxxl has been posting exactly the same wandering, torturous, disjointed, esoteric nonsense for months. He has been shown time and again where the bible refutes his loose interpretations, but his continuing response is, "my understanding is that ......" (the same wandering, torturous, disjointed, esoteric nonsense).
In all this time, he has never seen fit to seriously consider the merits of anything presented to him. Unless and until feet is willing to "diligently" search with an open heart those things that God has spoken to His children through His Word, there doesn't seem to be much point in continuing to rehash the same issues with him over and over. Prayer for the lifting of the veil over his eyes is the greatest gift we can give him at this time.
feet,
What in the world does that mean?
and all of you continue to say what scripture says, but are unable to explain how it says it.
feetxxxl--
Why don't you just give up? You are in serious error and you know it. And you have had a half dozen or more Christians here showing you your error. All the tortured logic and twisted rationalization in the world isn't going to convince anyone that what the scriptures plainly say about the sinfulness of homosexuality isn't true. Just stop. You are here defending a behavior plainly and clearly declared sinful by the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. You are trying to lead people into error and sin and for that you should be soundly rebuked by everyone, including myself. You should spend some time in prayer and seek repentance for what you are doing.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil." - Isaiah
Pray over this. Because the Holy Spirit will guide you back to the truth. d
We are not born homophobic, we choose to be homophobic. Homophobia is a sinful choice and anyone who is in this confusion really needs to consider the eternal consequences. God is always willing to forgive people for their sins, but they have to realize first that they have sinned and turn from that sin to Christ and try not to commit that sin again. Those who are unashamedly homophobic are not repentant of that sin. They continue living that lifestyle.
We know homophobia is wrong because it leads to harm, violence and even murder against our gay brothers and sisters. We know that Christ told us one of the most important commandments is to treat others as we want to be treated. ["In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)] When we engage in behavior which harms others, or leads to harm to others, it is in direct conflict with Christ's commandment. Therefore, homophobia is a sin.
The choice the homophobic have is the same as with all sin--either you follow the temptation or you follow God's revealed will concerning it. It is no different than someone who wants to steal. He/she may have the urge and desire, but must discipline himself/herself not to act upon it.
my understanding is that one is lead to repentance thru godly sadness that is without REGRET 2cor7:7-10. godly sadness comes from fellowship where both parties in sharing the spirit of christ witness the spirit that is against christ, together.
if this pointing out, is done in without love, without fellowship, and are attempts to evoke guilt that is filled with regret, it has nothing to do with the spirit of christ..........in fact it comes against it.
attempts to argue mindset or legalities about the law offer no witness of spirit, and consequently accomplishes nothing.
that is what john was doing in 1john1 when he said that "which we have looked at, have seen with our eyes, and our hands have touched"
The essence of the law is love but love of what or whom. it is the love of God and only within the context of the love of God is the love of neighbor to be defined. We love our neighbor because they were made in the image of the God we love. Because we love God we hate sin just like God does. And because we hate sin we condemn it whether it occurs in our lives or in the lives of others. the loving thing to do is to point out sin and to lead them to repentance. if it is loving to save someone from being murdered it is even more loving to save ones soul from eternal damnation.
feetxxx,
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter - Isaiah 5:20.
Jones needs to tackle the idea of incestuous relations among adults next. That is acceptable, according to the thought process shared by all homosexuals.
MuggleBorn
okay so stand on our old relationship to the written code
feel free to give your own explanation. and in doing so please explain what lie was exchanged for what truth, and in what way was what entity of creation worshipped and served so that some individuals were given over to being homosexual.
.... wow.
feetxxxl,
>> if its romans..................paul is talking about abandoning relationships(their women) they had naturally thru, and being given over to, the spirit, and bear the fruit of the spirit to relationships from not being given over to or led by the spirit but rather shamebased lust, that bore fruit other than the fruit of the spirit. <<
Wow …. WOW! That really cleared up so much for me. Thank you! It’s incredible that I didn’t see that before. WOW.
It’s like someone took scripture and created a NEW Bible called, "I Can’t Believe It’s Not Scripture".
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
THE ONE WHO" CAN" ACCEPT IT SHOULD ACCEPT IT
john 14-6
its intersting that you mention thousands of years of jewish culture
in isreal a landmark case was just passed thru the courts that alllows for adoption by homosexual couples.
john 14-6
you still insist on standing on our old relationship to the written code. and you still refuse to explain how homosexuality comes against loving your neighbor as yourself, the summation of all the law, or love, which is the fulfillment of the law.
but if you insist on doing it thru the written code............................
is there a possibility that instead of merely pontificating your understanding, you could explain it word by word and verse by verse
for instance what does the phrase "their women" indicate. in addition to relationship is it not also an indication of ownership or of property?
where else do we see "their women"?
Genesis 34:29
They carried off all their wealth and all" their women" and children, taking as plunder everything in the houses.
Esther 8:11
The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and" their women" and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies.
l
my apologies ....reeditted
lev is of the old covenant..........................heb says this will pass away. not all the prohibitions, were of themselves sins. our view of slavery, indicates our relationshipp with the old covenant.
icor and 1tim how do you leap from" malebed" (a compound word like ladykiller which makes its understanding more obscured) to "homosexual." it would be one thing if scripture had spelled it out the way it spelled out idolatry or justice. but one word, whose meaning was never clear. except for thru the bias that was put on it.
does this have anything to do with henry the 8th's 1566 law making sodomy punishable by hanging? since most of the translating was done in the 18th and 19th century.
Matthew 19
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Jesus himself says that God made male and female and it is only the union of male and female through marriage that makes them one flesh. This means that He affirms that homosexuality is a sin. Those who support homosexuality as a viable God honoring lifestyle can twist the scriptures which ever way they want but Christ in this passage is clear enough that homosexuality isnt what God had intended.
feetlxxx--
I have to say, I have never seen such a tortured logic or limbo-esque attempt to wriggle and squirm out of the clear exegesis of Paul's statement in Romans. You are in error, and you know it. There isn't any way you can avoid the clear reading of either Leviticus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, or thousands of years of Jewish cultural tradition. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will convict you of your error and attempts to distort and evade and twist the Word, where the Word is quite clear.
john 14-6
talthough paul says we are now led by and serve of the spirit and no longer have the old relationship to the written code, it is this old relationship that you attempt to stand on, rather than the test of spirit that we have in and thru christ.
and this is without the spirit message of dispensation in matt 19:11 for those who are not given the word for opposite sex bonding.
lev is of the old covenant..........................heb says will pass away. no all the prohibitions, were of themselves sins. are view of slavery indicates our relationshipp with the old covenant.
icor and 1tim how do you leap from" malebed" (a compound word like ladykiller which mkes its understanding more obscured) to "homosexual." it would one thing if scripture had spelled it the way it spelled out idolatry or justice. but one word whose meaning was never clear. except for thru the bias tha twas put on it.
does this have anything to do with henry the 8th's 1566 law making sodomy punishab