After months of revived debate over divorce and its increasing acceptance among Americans, a new study affirmed born again Christians are just as likely as the average American couple to divorce.
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Study: Christian Divorce Rate Identical to National Average
By
Audrey Barrick
Christian Post Reporter
Fri, Apr. 04 2008 03:11 PM EDT
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Below, is a FACT, and substantiated with each of your replies, Keruso:
When people approach a religious text, or any large book from which they intend to derive ethical teachings, nearly without exception the person will pick up the book and pay very particular attention to all the morals they already agreed with. A homophobe will pick up the Christian Bible and realise that Homosexuality is an evil sin. A misogynist will pick it up and realise that after all this time he's right: Women are inferior, and he can quote the Bible to prove it. People get, from religious texts, what they put into them. It has been that way, historically, since religion has been practiced on this planet.
<<This is not a matter of personal interpretation.>>
Yes it is. All scripture taken out of context of the time frame, culture and persons to whom it was written has been PERSONALLY INTERPRETED. Paul was speaking to his generation of believers in Churches he thought Jesus was to return in HIS lifetime. He wasn't speaking of YEARS in the future. You have continually attempted with misusing scriptures to prooftext as proof of your point Keruso, but is what makes it a matter of personal interpretation.
<<It is clearly and explicitly stated, multiple ways, that unrepentant homosexuals, adulterers, and fornicators will have no part in the Kingdom of God.>>
Again you are presenting your interpretation of texts removed from their original context to attempt to prove your point.
<<God's Word is quite clear that gay sex is an abomination to God and all those who practice it will perish. No where in scripture will you find God saying otherwise. Those who think He has have not rightly divided the Word of Truth.>>
And that has WHAT to do with the subject of HETEROSEXUALS who divorce? And it has what to do with the topic of Christians who divorce at an equal rate to nonChristians who ignore the bible passages which apply to divorce and remarriage? Throwing off red herrings because you can't articulate a REAL argument?
<<God will bring to nought any nation who embraces homosexuality.>>
What nations if any has GOD brought to "nought?" Historically, Christianity and namely the tyrannical practices under the guise of "spreading" the faith that has leveled nations; but it isn't an act of God, it is an act of willful Christian disobedience whereby Christians refuse God's command to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
feetxxxl, myTmuus
Lev 18:22 - "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."
Lev 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have commiteed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.:
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idelness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminnate, nor abuser of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Jude 7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
God's Word is quite clear that gay sex is an abomination to God and all those who practice it will perish. No where in scripture will you find God saying otherwise. Those who think He has have not rightly divided the Word of Truth.
God will bring to nought any nation who embraces homosexuality.
Con't
Quote: where does it say we are to be led by our own interpretations? in gal5, paul said the things of the sin nature are obvious. meaning that by their own essence there being against the spirit t of christ was self explanatory. how is it self explanatory that homosexuality is against christ.
He said: Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: [>>]sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;...[<<] I warn you, [>>]as I did before[<<], that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Again, he laid them out plainly. And what did he say before (having also written the Corinthians and Romans):
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: [>>]Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... will inherit the kingdom of God[<<].
Romans 1:25-27 [>>]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie[<<], and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. [>>]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.[<<] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, [>>]and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion[<<].
This is not a matter of personal interpretation. It is clearly and explicitly stated, multiple ways, that unrepentant homosexuals, adulterers, and fornicators will have no part in the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 12:24-26 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "[>>]Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand[<<]. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."
John 8:42-44 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. [>>]Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.[<<]
Con't
Quote: >where in scripture are we given license to condemn anyone without personal witness. does not the commandments of the old covenant say beware of giving false witness? how does anyone know why anyone divorces? how does anyone know on what basis they came together to be married in the first place?
Romans 1:25-27 [>>]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie[<<], and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. [>>]Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.[<<] In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, [>>]and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion[<<].
Romans 9:1-3 I speak the truth in Christ - I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit - I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For... the sake of my brothers,...
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Quote: what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11
Me: That for some men, the single life is preferred, for others marriage is preferred. It is 'this saying' to which Jesus refers.
Matthew 19:8-12 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." (11) But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. (12) For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
Con't
Quote: >they are saying......if there is a possibility of divorce, is it better not to marry? that knowing the nature of human beings is it better that they dont even attempt to marry, rather than give them over to the possibility of being sinners.
And your point? (It sounds very much like you’re implying marriage is a sin.) Many times the Apostle advised people to remain unmarried so as not to be distracted by the family needs (that includes sex) from God, however the Bible also says:
1 Corinthians 7:25-28 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. [>>]But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this[<<].
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 ...It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But...it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Matthew 19:5-6 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore [>>]what GOD has joined together[<<], let man not separate."
Quote: >who has this word been given to. and how is it given. it cant be a law, because it isnt given to everyone. whatever is given, is given thru the spirit. so that no one can say the holy spirit gave him this or that. since divorce was allowed in the old covenant. it is new in the new covenant. in the new covenant did christ give us new laws to be led by... .that would mean that he gave us new laws "to die to" that we are no longer" led by" because we are now led by the spirit?
Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? [>>]Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means![<<]...
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. [>>]But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[<<]...
Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
1 Peter 3:11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Con't
You also seem to forgotten the most important part of forgiveness - repentance!
Matthew 3:7-8 ...Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [>>]Produce fruit in keeping with repentance[<<].
Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. [>>]If you do not repent[<<], I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of [>>]repentance FOR the forgiveness[<<] of sins.
Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of [>>]repentance FOR the forgiveness[<<] of sins.
Acts 13:24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached [>>]repentance[<<]...
>what he is offering is a directive of spirit, that is tempered by the three commandments.........loving god, loving ones neighbor as oneself, and loving one another as christ loved us. it thru these, that the word is given and is to be lived.
And how did Christ love us? He died a horrible, torturous death so that, in repentance and humility, we might be washed clean of the stain of our sins.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
And how are we to love God:
Luke 10:27 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind
Joshua 22:5 But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."
How do we ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’? By following the laws of Moses, for ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’ is the summation of all laws. Breaking any part of the law is hurting your neighbor.
Galatians 5:14 THE ENTIRE LAW IS SUMMED UP in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble.
<<I gave him a chance to either admit he was or deny it. He refused to answer me and he has refused to answer others who have asked. >>
I see. It seems to be the practice when one can't articulate a cogent argument on the actual subject The Christian Post has written, one attacks the person's character.
star2 said...
<<His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.>>
Oh really? So far feetxxxl is on top of his game. He knows his way around the Bible back and forth and has demonstrated stronger debate skills and greater logic, I'd say what he's doing is working.
BTW No one has been capable of "besting" him.
<<myTmuus: Are you gay? Are you a Christian? >>
And how is that red herring* argument essential to this discussion? The topic is not me, my faith or my sexual orientation, since you have obviously forgotten that, I feel the need to remind you that the topic is Christian Divorce rates...
*A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.
sorry, site for Annals for Internal Medicine is too long, try this
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/249?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=
&fulltext=mrsa+usa300&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
feet
>>>mrsa is a highly contagious disease that comes from being in communal spaces. does that mean that god is telling us to stay out of communal spaces?<<<
CDC's definition of "community" - "Community-associated MRSA (CA-MRSA) infection refers to MRSA infection in a person lacking established MRSA risk factors such as recent hospitalization, surgery, residence in a long-term care facility, receipt of dialysis, or presence of invasive medical devices."
Regarding MSRA USA300:
"The infection causes boils and other infections but the report said what is unusual is that up to 40 percent of the infections occur in the buttocks and genitalia.
"Data … suggest that multidrug-resistant USA300 has spread rapidly among men who have sex with men in San Francisco and Boston, and that having male-male sex seems to be a risk factor…," the report said."
source: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=45564
Report from Annals of Internal Medicine on MRSA USA300:
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/249?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=mrsa+usa300&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
feet, MRSA is never passed by casual association, but rather by physical contact. It requires much more than just being in the same room with someone. I've had patients that had been suffering from MRSA infections for years due to the great difficulty in treating this type of infection. Why would anyone purposely choose to remain ignorant of such a health issue?
On 4/8 at 7:02 pm I wrote the following to you:
>>>>WE don't use testing for one issue, YOU do. Okay, so you believe that homosexuality, fornication, and divorce with adultry by means of remarriage is just fine with God. Is there ANY relationship that you think God is against?<<<<
Would you please answer my question.
star
feetxxxl has attended a gay church for a period of time. He wants to use the Bible to justify his position on homosexuality while rejecting the scriptures that clearly says that gay sex is an abomionation and all who practice it will go to hell. His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.
star you have done thrown accusation after accusation, but you not confronted one scintilla of my reasoning. and you have not shown how the words(greek) of the verses of scripture say homosexuality is a sin.
have you considered doing a word search on what scripture says about "tradition" and "testing"?
keruso
Quote: "what witness gives you license tobe so presumptive and judgemental."
The Bible is the witness. It is the one with the 'license to be so presumptive and judgemental." It is the standard that God will hold us all to, Christian or not.
Ezekiel 3:18-21 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but thou hast delivered thy soul[<<].
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
>where in scripture are we given license to condemn anyone without personal witness. does not the commandments of the old covenant say beware of giving false witness? how does anyone know why anyone divorces? how does anyone know on what basis they came together to be married in the first place?
continued
keruso
Quote: what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11
That for some men, the single life is preferred, for others marriage is preferred. It is 'this saying' to which Jesus refers.
>in matt 19
>jesus says"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
>to which the disciples ask "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."
>they are saying......if there is a possibility of divorce, is it better not to marry? that knowing the nature of human beings is it better that they dont even attempt to marry, rather than give them over to the possibility of being sinners.
>jesus says "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given............................The one who can accept this should accept it."
>who has this word been given to. and how is it given. it cant be a law, because it isnt given to everyone. whatever is given, is given thru the spirit. so that no one can say the holy spirit gave him this or that. since divorce was allowed in the old covenant. it is new in the new covenant. in the new covenant did christ give us new laws to be led by................. .that would mean that he gave us new laws "to die to" that we are no longer" led by" because we are now led by the spirit?
>what he is offering is a directive of spirit, that is tempered by the three commandments.........loving god, loving ones neighbor as oneself, and loving one another as christ loved us. it thru these, that the word is given and is to be lived.
continued
keruso
> the extreme is one pardner leaving and refusing to communicate, sexual and physical assault, or becoming so deranged, that because of severe mental illness, one pardner cannot even interact with the other. is the other pardner, in the love of the three commandments deemed an adulterer because he divorces and remarries.............................. of course not.
>it is the conviction in the heart of the one who" receives" the word, and" accepts it" the lengths that that person is called to withstand whatever trials god has placed in their marriage. to go the last mile to remain true to that marriage.
>and it is not given that because a believer remains faithful that the marriage will be saved. but only that the believer went the last mile.
>the greek " porneia" which the kj transposed" fornication", and the niv transposed "marital unfithfulness" can also mean" idol worship. that being the case, it would mean actions for one being given over to any spirit that comes against the 2 being given in marriage. it is not specifically about sexual unfaithfulness, which i personnally find as a lame excuse for anyone to dissolve a marriage.
>in addition jesus also gives dispensation for those given the word but still cannot accept it. jesus says that even if one is given the word and cannot accept it then dont accept.
so in essence the adulterer is the who receives the word and acknowledges he has received it, CAN ACCEPT IT, and ATTEMPTS to live by it.
even among believers no one can say who this is, except the person who in his heart has accepted it.
myTmuus
Re:My challenge was directed at the poster called star2 who claimed another poster is obsessed, absorbed and preoccupied with homosexuality to the point that she wonders if they are indeed homosexual.
Yes, I did wonder if he was gay. Others have accused him of such. Instead of accusing him I asked him if he was. I gave him a chance to either admit he was or deny it. He refused to answer me and he has refused to answer others who have asked.
feetxxxl has attended a gay church for a period of time. He wants to use the Bible to justify his position on homosexuality while rejecting the scriptures that clearly says that gay sex is an abomionation and all who practice it will go to hell. His distorted, twisted, and misapplication of scriptures to get around the obvious truth that gay sex is wrong will never work.
myTmuus: Are you gay? Are you a Christian?
feetxxxl, >homosexuality is not a lifestyle......it is a life, full of family,extended family, self actualization, faith. worship, goals etc.>
I totally agree with you. Oh, and I have not forgotten about your question to me, I am still researching the word eunuch and mulling over my response before I post.
<<Apparently, the word "lifestyle" when combined with "homosexual" is now some kind of insult.>>
It’s been an “insult” since the early 80’s when heterosexists decided they would demean homosexuals by deciding their lives and existences were nothing more than an aberration, kind of like the “lifestyle of the rich and famous.” It’s an uninformed presumption and ideal that homosexuals choose to be gay, sleep around, do drugs and seek to destroy society. So yes tamna, that word lifestyle is an insult but it’s not that new.
<<You fall back on a defense of perception. Perception is what got us into Iraq. An over the top example, admittedly, but it shows the power of perception. Fine. Like I said, I had a hunch that would be your answer.>>
Perception is very persuasive, and as you pointed out it’s what you believe got us into Iraq. In an argument it can be very helpful dealing with the opponent who consistently makes nasty assumptions about someone without ever substantiating more than “God said!” “The Bible says!” and “The Pope says!” You see tamna, I have read these comment sections and it is my perception is that there are many Christian homophobes who use these boards to demean the lives of people while using God to support their own personal prejudice. If or when necessary I can produce my numbers but it is not necessary just to appease someone who is much like all the others out there hiding behind their keyboard typing hatred about homosexuals in the NAME of the most high God.
Based on your response, as well as others, it is you that is making sweeping generalizations about persons that disagree with your stated position. All the while accusing them of doing the exact same thing you are doing. That is my perception.
And that is merely your perception, however the reality is on the 4th page, and the 4th response the subject of negativity regarding homosexuals was breached, so that substantiates my claim FOR NOW.
<<I asked to see your results. You apparently cannot show them. You now say I have to prove you wrong. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I just want to see your results out of curiosity. Awful defensive response, I think.>>
As I said earlier, On EVERY gay related story that the Christian Post reports, posters claiming to be “Christian” demean, insult, name call, produce misinformation as FACT, defer to hearsay and other forms of unsubstantiated rumor as the TRUTH. I am entitled to defend my response with what I think is the most accurate perception or best conveys what I think is the truth. It doesn’t matter to me that you think about my responses- if you are convinced that I am not telling the truth, prove me wrong with the facts, otherwise your point is moot.
<<My "perception," based on your reply, is that you have no results/numbers or whatever.>>
And you are convinced of that perception based on WHAT? Your feelings, your intuition? Your hopes? A hunch? Your negative assumptions about me?
<<Thanks for the reply. It was about how I expected it would be.>>
I’m happy that I did not disappoint you. I so HATE to disappoint people on these Christian discussion boards.
<<BTW you made the claim about the numbers, not I.>>
My challenge was directed at the poster called star2 who claimed another poster is obsessed, absorbed and preoccupied with homosexuality to the point that she wonders if they are indeed homosexual. Read what I said, tamna “If you doubt me, do what I did and make a count of how many stories are gay related and then count how many "Christian" posters are saying untruthful, hateful, homophobic things about gays. Just count how many times you have brought up gays, or responded negatively about them.” I’d venture to say that the ones who constantly defer the discussions on these boards to homosexuality, gay sex and the Christian viewpoint that God finds homosexuality abominable and unnatural who are guilty.
keruso
Quote: the issue of ... sex prior to marriage, has historically been dealt with thru understandings and leadings of interpretation of the law and holding to tradition. the result has been incredible persecutions, psychological, emotional and even physical damage...
>no, divorce and sex prior to marriage........................ historically has been dealt with recrimniations and rejection by society and abandonment by friends and family. so much so that prior to this societies becoming mobile, in an era where people grew up and lived and died in the same town, anyone divorced or openly having sex prior to marriage became a social pariah, in the same way one became one if they had a child out of wedlock. im sure you have heard of shotgun weddings.<
And what about the damage done by the "Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" attitude?
>this is the 21st century,where women as well as men are acknowledged as having a sex life, both having orgasms, both having sex drives. that was why "sex in the city" was so revolutionary because it brought to the light of day that women have sex lives the same as men.<
continued
keruso
> What about the hearts that have been broken because their partner was never really committed to a permanent relationship, only a one nightstand or conquest or just one of many ongoing sexual relationships? Or the damage done to children born of these relationships who grow up fatherless or abandoned, if they are born at all? Or how about the life threating diseases that are spread? If one refrains from a sexual relationship until a binding commitment is made (marriage), then there is a far better chance of the relationship lasting for the long haul, since all chances that the 'commitment' was made out of lust or guilt are virtually zero.
>you credit no one for having different understandings and life goals apart from your own. according to your mindset, everyone who reaches the age of puberty should adjust themselves to seeking a marriage pardner and until having found that person should remain celibate............why? how do they come against the spirit of christ if they meet someone whom they have intimate feelings for and have sex, why shouldnt sex be a normal part of expressing those feelings. what if they are not interested in getting married, either emotionally(dont believe they are emotionally mature) or they have other life goals that they want to pursue first. so having a mutual relationship they should be labeled in the body as a sinner, because they are having sex and are not married. how does that affirm the spirit of christ? has it not occurred to you, that a number of the marriages have happened, to avoid being labeled a sinner. that married, they could have sex without guilt.
>how incredible damaging that would be to both parties and to the children of that union.
> and that aura of guilt will always hang over the church as long as our dealings with sexual issues is being led by our interpretation of the law.
CONTINUED
keruso
>but, if we are led by the spiri,t then why is our understanding of sex not also led by the spirit. namely that it is not sex itself that is a sin, but the spirit that one is given over to that motivates him to indulge in it. in one case sex can be an affirmation of the devotion between the two individuals. in another, itis from being given over to an obsession of lust, where one not only devalues the other person, but himself as well.<
Quote: romans says that we are led by the spirit. so i repeat. what is the spirit of homosexuality that motivates a desire to bond with the same sex., and what are the fruits of that spirit?
God is clearly not the source of the 'spirit' that leads to homosexuality as the Bible can not be more clear about his homosexual stance (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:25-28). Nor can it be more clear about unmarried or adulterous sex. Further, the 100% preventable diseases and unwanted pregnancies that haunts the lives of the sexually promiscuous clearly punctuate this stance. However, Satan is a spirit too, the tempter, the father of lies, can easily be a 'leading spirit' when we let him (Matthew 4:1-11, John 8:42-44). He would happily tempted individuals into destructive and life threatening lifestyles. He wants you suffering in hell, he doesn't care how you get there, and the sooner you arrive the happier he is (less chance of repentance). That is what hate is, that which rejoices in the eternal suffering of others. There is no such rejoicing in Christ and forgiveness awaits the truly repent..
> if you have to use the bible to denote homosexuality a sin, then you are putting homsexuality under your interpretation of regulation and then you are turning around and are allowing yourself to be led by it. did not paul say we are led by the spirit. where does it say we are to be led by our own interpretations? in gal5, paul said the things of the sin nature are obvious. meaning that by their own essence there being against the spirit t of christ was self explanatory. how is it self explanatory that homosexuality is against christ.
> homosexuals have never been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, attorney, doctor, neighbor,soldier etc. could you say the same of those who are given over to the sin nature compared to those that are not.
>the diseases that you speak of, are diseases of rabid promiscuity, people having multiple pardners in merely a few days. surely the spirit one is given over to indulge in this kind orf sex is debasing to both parties. mrsa is a highly contagious disease that comes from being in communal spaces. does that mean that god is telling us to stay out of communal spaces?
>homosexuality is not a lifestyle......it is a life, full of family,extended family, self actualization, faith. worship, goals etc.
myTmuus:
Thanks for the reply. It was about how I expected it would be.
BTW you made the claim about the numbers, not I. I asked to see your results. You apparently cannot show them. You now say I have to prove you wrong. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I just want to see your results out of curiosity. Awful defensive response, I think. My "perception," based on your reply, is that you have no results/numbers or whatever. You fall back on a defense of perception. Perception is what got us into Iraq. An over the top example, admittedly, but it shows the power of perception. Fine. Like I said, I had a hunch that would be your answer.
Based on your response, as well as others, it is you that is making sweeping generalizations about persons that disagree with your stated position. All the while accusing them of doing the exact same thing you are doing. That is my perception.
Apparently, the word "lifestyle" when combined with "homosexual" is now some kind of insult. Thank you so much for the information. I really appreciate knowing the latest. Maybe you should pass it along to the pro-gay websites I have seen that use the same word.
My PERCEPTION is that your working definition of "hateful" is something along the lines of anything or anyone that disagrees with the homosexual "lifestyle," "agenda," "orientation" or whatever the acceptable term is this week. I venture that the above definition for "hateful" would also cover the terms "homophobic" and maybe even "untruithful" that get thrown around in discussions like this. This is somewhat different that the dictionary definition. As are most "working definitions" people use when debating - they seldom match the actual definition.
It seems, based on what everyone is talking about now, this discussion is way beyond where I entered it so I'll bow out and let it go.
Again, thanks for the reply. I learned a lot. Have a great day.
myTmuus,
Also I should point out that, where Archeology has the information, the events, names, peoples, titles, and modes of speech of the Hebrew Books match the times in which they were supposedly to be written. Some famous examples: the Hittites, Jericho, the Assyrian king Sargon, Belshazzar the king of Babylon, Solomon's wealth, etc.
myTmuus,
Quote: Indulge me if you will, when do you believe the Bible was actually written? Especially the Old Testament, and in what language? And when do you believe the Bible was FIRST translated into the English language, and from what source do you believe to be the MOST accurate?
Not sure what this has to do with the definition of adultery, but:
All but one Hebrew books (the book of Ester) has been proven to be no less that 2100 year olds (100 - 200 BC - Dead Sea Scrolls) and shows more modern copies are near perfect. The Christian Books have proven to be no less than 1800 to 1600 years old (200 - 400 AD) (there is some evidence that these are copies of older text) and that no other book has survive in so large a number and, again, with so high a level of uniformity between the copies and languages. The original languages are Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. And when it was translated into 'English' all depends on what version of 'English' to which you refer. Old English translations popped up as early as 600 AD. Early modern English start about the 1500's and the modern English Oxford KJV was translated in 1769.
There is no one source that is the 'most accurate', though some are 'less accurate' than others. Reading the Bible is best done by comparing several versions and looking at the original languages. I tend to draw from the NIV, KJV, ESV, and ASV, however I do not limit myself to these. I own copies of both Hebrew and Greek interlinear text and spend a LOT of time using various internet Biblical resources especially lexicons.
How about you?
<<Adultery - voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse, voluntary violation of the marriage bed, extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited [>>]as grounds for divorce[<<]" - Dictionary.com>>
Indulge me if you will, when do you believe the Bible was actually written? Especially the Old Testament, and in what language? And when do you believe the Bible was FIRST translated into the English language, and from what source do you believe to be the MOST accurate?
feetxxxl
Quote: the issue of ... sex prior to marriage, has historically been dealt with thru understandings and leadings of interpretation of the law and holding to tradition. the result has been incredible persecutions, psychological, emotional and even physical damage...
And what about the damage done by the "Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" attitude? What about the hearts that have been broken because their partner was never really committed to a permanent relationship, only a one nightstand or conquest or just one of many ongoing sexual relationships? Or the damage done to children born of these relationships who grow up fatherless or abandoned, if they are born at all? Or how about the life threating diseases that are spread? If one refrains from a sexual relationship until a binding commitment is made (marriage), then there is a far better chance of the relationship lasting for the long haul, since all chances that the 'commitment' was made out of lust or guilt are virtually zero.
Quote: romans says that we are led by the spirit. so i repeat. what is the spirit of homosexuality that motivates a desire to bond with the same sex., and what are the fruits of that spirit?
God is clearly not the source of the 'spirit' that leads to homosexuality as the Bible can not be more clear about his homosexual stance (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:25-28). Nor can it be more clear about unmarried or adulterous sex. Further, the 100% preventable diseases and unwanted pregnancies that haunts the lives of the sexually promiscuous clearly punctuate this stance. However, Satan is a spirit too, the tempter, the father of lies, can easily be a 'leading spirit' when we let him (Matthew 4:1-11, John 8:42-44). He would happily tempted individuals into destructive and life threatening lifestyles. He wants you suffering in hell, he doesn't care how you get there, and the sooner you arrive the happier he is (less chance of repentance). That is what hate is, that which rejoices in the eternal suffering of others. There is no such rejoicing in Christ and forgiveness awaits the truly repentant.
feetxxxl
Quote: "what witness gives you license tobe so presumptive and judgemental."
The Bible is the witness. It is the one with the 'license to be so presumptive and judgemental." It is the standard that God will hold us all to, Christian or not.
Ezekiel 3:18-21 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; [>>]but thou hast delivered thy soul[<<].
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; [>>]but his blood will I require at thine hand[<<]. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Quote: what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11
Matthew 19:8-12 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." (11) But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. (12) For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
That for some men, the single life is preferred, for others marriage is preferred. It is 'this saying' to which Jesus refers.
myTmuus,
Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus replied, "...I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR MARTIAL UNFAITHFULNESS, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV
Me: <<Clearly Jesus, explicitly, makes an exception for divorces based on adultery.>>
Quote: No, Jesus explicitly makes the exception based on sexual immorality. Adultery is the act of divorce and remarriage.
Adultery - voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse, voluntary violation of the marriage bed, extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited [>>]as grounds for divorce[<<]" - Dictionary.com
immorality - sexual misconduct - Dictionary.com
Adultery is the act of having sex with someone other than your spouse. Adultery is not defined by divorce but often the cause of divorce. Adultery is, by definition, a sexual immorality.
<<To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. FOR IT IS BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN WITH PASSION.>>
Yes the UNMARRIED or WIDOWED who can not exercise self control or burns with passion, does not mean the DIVORCED. It means the unmarried or the widowed.
feet
>>>>isnt testing in the spirit, the explanation for why divorce has been given its acceptance. we acknowledge that a marriage is over, because of either the agreement of both, or the belief of one, that there are irreconcilable differences. it is the testing of the spirt that motivates one to remarry and the fruits of that remarriage that allowed us to see that it was good and therefore of god.
how is it we use testing for one issue and not for all.<<<<
WE don't use testing for one issue, YOU do. Okay, so you believe that homosexuality, fornication, and divorce with adultry by means of remarriage is just fine with God. Is there ANY relationship that you think God is against?
<<Clearly Jesus, explicitly, makes an exception for divorces based on adultery.>>
No, Jesus explicitly makes the exception based on sexual immorality. Adultery is the act of divorce and remarriage.
"God may send many test into Christian lives, however this one is completely avoidable if both the man and woman are truly honest and fully committed to each other. Marriage is a lifetime commit, not a commitment until something 'better' comes along. "
what witness gives you license tobe so presumptive and judgemental.
what is ypur understanding of the last sentence of matt 19:11
feetxxxl
Quote: isnt testing in the spirit, the explanation for why divorce has been given its acceptance. we acknowledge that a marriage is over, because of either the agreement of both, or the belief of one, that there are irreconcilable differences. it is the testing of the spirt that motivates one to remarry and the fruits of that remarriage that allowed us to see that it was good and therefore of god.
You have obviously never been destroyed by a parental divorce or betrayed by a spouse. Divorces do not happen because of 'irreconcilable differences', they happen because one (or both) person decides, in one fashion or another, that the 'grass is greener on the other side of the fence' (and often discover it's Astroturf). Either the man or the woman (or both) starts seeing the future in terms of 'me' instead of 'we'. That is, without exception, what destroys every relationship. If sex and marriage weren't entered into so lightly, there wouldn't be a high divorce rate to 'give acceptance to'. God may send many test into Christian lives, however this one is completely avoidable if both the man and woman are truly honest and fully committed to each other. Marriage is a lifetime commit, not a commitment until something 'better' comes along.
myTmuus,
Quote: 'It's unscriptural by the quote above to divorce a nonChristian spouse and remarry.... AND unequally yoked marriages are not grounds for divorce according to the Bible.'
I think you misunderstand my position here, the position clearly stated in these verses. No Christian is tied to a non-Christian that demands a divorce. However, I agree the Christian, should never demand a divorce in this circumstance and would be guilty of adultery if they did so. Obviously, it matters who request the divorce.
Quote: "But [>>]if the unbelieving partner separates[<<], let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister IS NOT ENSLAVED. God has called you to peace. —1 Corinthians 7:10-15 ESV
1 Corinthians 7:15 But [>>]if the unbeliever leaves[<<], let him do so. A believing man or woman IS NOT BOUND in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. NIV
1 Corinthians 7:15 But [>>]if the unbelieving depart[<<], let him depart. A brother or a sister IS NOT UNDER BONDAGE in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. KJV
And yes let's skip the preceding verses -
1 Corinthians 7:6-9 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. FOR IT IS BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN WITH PASSION.
Quote: Christian or not, if a divorce is granted on any grounds and a Christian remarries, it's still adultery.
Do you read these verses you're quoting?
Matthew 19:8-9 He said to them, "... And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR SEXUAL IMMORALITY, and marries another, commits adultery." ESV
Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus replied, "...I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR MARTIAL UNFAITHFULNESS, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV
Clearly Jesus, explicitly, makes an exception for divorces based on adultery.
Quote: Not so premature an accusation when you witness how Christians continue to harp on homosexuality yet refuse to face the facts about the adultery that usually follows a divorce.
So your accusation continues to be premature. However I do agree, minus the Bible's stated exceptions, that adultery does follow a divorce.
The answer is so simple: A constitutional amendment banning divorce outright--or, barring that, allowing each state the right to decide whether or not it recognizes your divorce. Just because you get divorced in one sinful state shouldn't mean you're not still married in the other 49.
MY TIMUUS
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
THE ONE WHO CAN ACCEPT THIS SHOULD ACCEPT IT.............WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THIS SENTENCE?
<<Personally, I know of 5 "Christian" divorces; 3 were due to ADULTERY and 2 due an unexpected demand for divorce, all by the non-Chirstian spouse (and all took or are taking a terrible toll on the Christian spouse). So accusations of hypocrisy seem a little premature.>>
Your divorce anecdotes are of no interest to me, DIVORCE and remarriage are considered ADULTERY. Christian or not, if a divorce is granted on any grounds and a Christian remarries, it's still adultery. AND unequally yoked marriages are not grounds for divorce according to the Bible.
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. —1 Corinthians 7:10-15
It's unscriptural by the quote above to divorce a nonChristian spouse and remarry. It's unscriptural to divorce and remarry.
Not so premature an accusation when you witness how Christians continue to harp on homosexuality yet refuse to face the facts about the adultery that usually follows a divorce.
Apparently some people don’t really care about the vows, commitments and covenants they make before GOD, and will stop at nothing to minimalize about it.
<<Second, there are two reasons given in the Bible under which divorce is allowable for a Christian, one is that same ADULTERY and the second is if the other person is not a Christian and wants a divorce.>>
The instruction to the Christian regarding divorce and remarriage are these…
DIVORCE is permitted, but remarriage after that DIVORCE is not. Remarriage after a divorce is ADULTERY. That’s what the Bible states.
--He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”—Matthew 19:3-9
Divorce when granted, in most cases it was male instigated, and means throwing off or casting out the spouse, it is leaving her defenseless and that was what Jesus was definitely opposed(when you read the scriptures and interpret correctly). A woman could divorce her husband, but was to remain single thereafter.
--“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”—Mark 10:2-12
--“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
—Luke 16:18
<<First, it takes two to make a marriage work and what these numbers don't say is who or what caused all these divorces.>>
It doesn’t really matter who or what caused the divorce. DIVORCE RATES are up. Do you believe that most marriages are made while taking vows? Do you believe that Christian marriages that end in divorce are broken vows and are dishonorable before both GOD and families?
I do. Every Christian wedding I have attended, VOWS were made and covenants were spoken. So I am inclined to believe that when people make a commitment, make vows, enact a covenant, before GOD, families and friends, when broken it’s best it should have never been made- love, honor and cherish until death do us part apparently MEANS nothing to some people . So your first point is meaningless to me, because apparently you think rates and numbers being as high as they are, or a reason/cause is more important than a vow, commitment or covenant.
<<Is a poster who disagreed with the homosexual lifestyle - but did so without the use of derogatory or disrespectful language considered, in keeping with your parameters, to be "hateful" "untruthful" or "homophobic?">>
I defer my response with defense of PERCEPTION. The fact that you consider homosexuality a “lifestyle” is one perception that you are parroting homophobic insults.
<<And if you could provide YOUR working definitions of "hateful," "untruthful" and especially "homophobic," it would be appreciated.>>
Use a standard dictionary. I do. I’m a purest when it comes to words- I also study etymology.
<<Believe it or not, I'm serious. I'd really appreciate it if you could provide the raw numbers you came up with and how you classified the results. Examples would be nice. Thanks a lot. Have a great day.>>
There are more anti-gay posters on ALL of these article threads, it’s a fact. I’m sorry that I have to say that a good majority claim to be Christian. Serious or not, please take notice, I said “if YOU doubt me DO as I DID… meaning observe the truth for yourself. It was a challenge to those who , it’s up to you to prove ME wrong.
To tamna...
<<I'd really like to know the results of your unofficial survey. Specifically, I'd like to know the numbers you came up with and how you classified results.>>
On EVERY gay related story that the Christian Post reports, posters claiming to be “Christian” demean, insult, name call, produce misinformation as FACT, defer to hearsay and other forms of unsubstantiated rumor as the TRUTH. When someone like me points it out, I am countered with some or all of the above. NO ONE addresses the post, but they sure throw the insults.
<<Did you classify verses about homosexuality from Scritpure as "hateful" untruthful" "homophobic" or what?>>
No. However, most posters who hate gays use scriptures as proof texts even though they may have misinterpreted them in using them.
isnt testing in the spirit, the explanation for why divorce has been given its acceptance. we acknowledge that a marriage is over, because of either the agreement of both, or the belief of one, that there are irreconcilable differences. it is the testing of the spirt that motivates one to remarry and the fruits of that remarriage that allowed us to see that it was good and therefore of god.
how is it we use testing for one issue and not for all.
myTmuus,
Quote: God finds divorce and remarriage so abominable he calls it ADULTERY and there is a commandment written espressly fobidding it- yet the divorce and remarriages CHRISTIANS are guilty of are swept under the carpets in order to discuss homosexuals and what God thinks about them. Hypocritical if you ask me.
First, it takes two to make a marriage work and what these numbers don't say is who or what caused all these divorces. Second, there are two reasons given in the Bible under which divorce is allowable for a Christian, one is that same ADULTERY and the second is if the other person is not a Christian and wants a divorce. Personally, I know of 5 "Christian" divorces; 3 were due to ADULTERY and 2 due an unexpected demand for divorce, all by the non-Chirstian spouse (and all took or are taking a terrible toll on the Christian spouse). So accusations of hypocrisy seem a little premature.
hen scripture is read about holiness, too often the understanding that is embraced is limited to holiness for everybody else.
the issue of homosexuality and sex prior to marriage, has historically been dealt
with thru understandings and leadings of interpretation of the law and holding to tradition. the result has been incredible persecutions, psychological, emotional and even physical damage
but this kind of leading does not hold up in what scripture says about our covenant in christ. and this kind of leading requires legalizations of some scriptures and the ignoring of others
romans says that we are led by the spirit.
so i repeat. what is the spirit of homosexuality that motivates a desire to bond with the same sex., and what are the fruits of that spirit?
and what is the spirit and its fruits that motivates one to have sex prior to marriage?
all human acts are motivated by the spirit one is is given over to. this is also denoted in romans.
and jesus said we will recognize them by their fruits..........the fruits of the spirt that initiated the act. we know the ones of the holy spirit fruit themselves being spirit.............. spirit creating spirit
(im sure we have all attended gatherings of believers and been awed at witnessing their being a spirt of gentleness, joy, or love..and the fruits of incedible healings testimonies or moving worship).
all the compliants about disease, or depression are about things that appear in both orientations.
the fact that we witness more or less bonding, in a positive spirit, speaks of possiblity, not detrrimment.
however, because i see a repeated standings on an understanding of the law and tradition that denies fellowship and all its aspects............................walking in anothers shoes, carrying their burdens, honoring their life experiences...................looking at them, seeing them with one's eyes, and touching them.
and because i see a reluctance to test, and to test thru a spirit witness
is it possible that even after 2000 years, believers are still having difficulty embracing and understanding the covenant they are called to in christ?
myTmuus:
You wrote:
"If you doubt me, do what I did and make a count of how many stories are gay related and then count how many "Christian" posters are saying untruthful, hateful, homophobic things about gays."
I'd really like to know the results of your unofficial survey. Specifically, I'd like to know the numbers you came up with and how you classified results. Did you classify verses about homosexuality from Scritpure as "hateful" untruthful" "homophobic" or what?
Is a poster who disagreed with the homosexual lifestyle - but did so without the use of derogatory or disrespectful language considered, in keeping with your parameters, to be "hateful" "untruthful" or "homophobic?"
And if you could provide YOUR working definitions of "hateful," "untruthful" and especially "homophobic," it would be appreciated.
Believe it or not, I'm serious. I'd really appreciate it if you could provide the raw numbers you came up with and how you classified the results. Examples would be nice. Thanks a lot. Have a great day.
T
Ifeelfine
Well, a marriage ceremony in a church is the equivalent of making a vow publicly before God. Kind of helps to cement a committment, which we all need for various reasons from time to time (given the tendencies of human nature).
myTmuus: I couldn't agree more.
GMG: I don't make the determination. God does - only He knows what's in their hearts. Personally, I waited until I was married, in a church but that was what was comfortable to my bride and I . . . and what I felt God wanted. I can't say that about everyone else. Is there anywhere in the Bible that says there has to be a ceremony performed by a minister? I don't recall seeing it.
ifeelfine
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
>>>>I don't believe that a marriage license is necessary for recognition by God. The state should only be involved in the civil contract.<<<<
Does this mean that you don't think a man and woman need to have a marriage ceremony (or marriage-type contract whether "civil" or in a church) before being involved in intimate relationships? Under what basis do you determine whether it is lustful, or committed?
<<When I see 'feetxxxl' my mind automatically goes to 'homosexuality' because he is completely absorbed and preoccuped with it. >>
He's no more "absorbed or preoccupied" than you or any of those who consider themselves to be Christians are. If you doubt me, do what I did and make a count of how many stories are gay related and then count how many "Christian" posters are saying untruthful, hateful, homophobic things about gays. Just count how many times you have brought up gays, or responded negatively about them. If you weren't obsessed, absorbed or preoccupied you'd just keep to yourself star2... but'cha don't, do you?
<<I have asked him before about showing me scriptures that prove that God approves of homosexuality.>>
So what you're saying is this article about how the HIGH RATE of divorce among CHRISTIANS demands you harp on the subject of homosexuals? Is that what you're saying? There are two scriptures in the OT about cleanliness rituals pertaining to what some consider is proof that God thinks homosexuals are abominable, and 600 scriptures throughout the Bible pertaining to the abominable sexual practices and rules for heterosexuals. Yet we see in this article CHRISTIAN heterosexuals don't even practice what they preach. Ironic, just ironic. God finds divorce and remarriage so abominable he calls it ADULTERY and there is a commandment written espressly fobidding it- yet the divorce and remarriages CHRISTIANS are guilty of are swept under the carpets in order to discuss homosexuals and what God thinks about them. Hypocritical if you ask me.
GMG: While agre that lustful fornacation is a sin, feet has said pretty much the same thing. I don't believe that a marriage has to be ordained by the church, only by God. As such, I don't believe that a marriage license is necessary for recognition by God. The state should only be involved in the civil contract. Its the same thing I've said about gay marriage as well. Churches don't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry, and that includes Christians. But the state is not in the business of ordaining church weddings, it is in the business of social contracts - of which two women or two men or one man or one woman should be able to enter.