Hundreds of United Methodists have begun looking over some 1,500 petitions that have been proposed by those seeking change in church policies and structures, among other things, during the church's quadrennial gathering.
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United Methodists Engage in Transgender Talks
By
Audrey Barrick
Christian Post Reporter
Sat, Apr. 26 2008 12:06 PM EDT
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I was raised in the UMC and my parents and brother still are. I now a minister with the Assembly of God. My heart breaks as I know does the Lord's when things like this are done in the name of Christian Biblical policy. If one truly reads the Word of God it will be clear that transgender, transexual or any other form of perversion is directly apposed to what the scriptures teach in word and principal. I agree that we should minister to those who are deluded by the adversary of God (Satan) but to see them delivered not made to feel that they were some mistake or mishap of creation. This is a sin issue not a genetic or cromosomal issue. Man from the beginning has tried to give excusses for his sin. Adam tried to blame Eve and Eve tried to blame the serpant. Man is responsible for his own action and needs a Savior (Jesus Christ) to deliver him from the sinful nature. We should not make or change our biblical views or perspective to give validation to or justify sin. We need to allow righteousness to reign and seek the kingdom of God.
I left the UMC after 49 years. The "creeping" liberalism, condonement of gay bishops, leadership and conference meeting agendas taking so much time, energy, money and other resources debating issues that go clearly against what is pleasing to God, and the allowing of the UMC Book of Discipline to supercede the Bible, are a few of the reasons. In, Deuteronomy, Chap. 22, the Lord speaks to Moses, and plainly states that men wearing women's clothes, and vise versa, is disgusting to the Lord. Just because the UMC Book of Discipline doesn't address transgender issues, doesn;t even matter...what God wants and commands of us is the only thing that matters. The UMC had better return to the Bible as the one and only Book of Discipline before Methodism becomes just another feel good, go along to get along religion.
argyle,
I am not saying that you are not a strong Christian who will stand up for Christian principles, however I cannot see how people can justify being in an organization which is officially against the principles they stand for. Certainly a single congregation can be good even if the whole organization is corrupt, but to be part of a single congregation is to be a part of the whole.
For instance, if there was a company that was extremely corrupt and involved in activities one was against, yet the branch where this person works is good, can it be justified to stay in this company, knowing that you bear its name and the work you do supports the central head?
You said, "Dont Judge people on what church they attend."
Fair enough, but then nobody has the right to judge Obama for attending his Church either. To me the two go hand in hand.
In God's Word Romans Ch 1:24 - Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25-They exchanged the truth of God for a lie & worshiped & served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen Read on thru to the end of the chapter. What God calls sin is sin - & it will not go unpunished. Homosexuality is wrong - God says so!
Disscussions such as this have been going on for years, not every congregation feels the same way. I love my current congregation, but if i see the word perverted in the congregation i am involved with i will leave it. Iv left a chuch before because i dissagreed with their teachings(and this wasnt a UMC). and if i have to I will do it again. Dont Judge people on what church they attend.
argyle,
If not everyone is happy with this development in the UMC, then why do they stay in the UMC?
We are at a crossroads in this nation, and in particular, the UMC, when they can publicy state that they are in engaged in transgendered talks. More like acceptance of perversity talks. Apostasy has come upon the church in this nation in a massive way, and believers need now, more than ever, to come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Be ye holy, as I am holy, and do not touch the accursed thing!!!!
REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!!
Not everyone in the UMC are "down" with this. Just to let you people know.
Quecat
Same here.
"you never know who you are talking to. "
I'll talk to everyone the same; share the gospel when possible, contend for the faith always, refute false doctrine and empty religion wherever it rears it's ugly head.
ShuckC - I believe you'll find too many folks flag posts on here - just because they disagree with the content. My strategy - copy paste everything into a separate document - so if you get flagged - you can just re-post. Many posts take awhile to research and write - it would be a shame to lose them so randomly.
(btw - i often wondered the same thing - is a transgendered woman, a woman who changed to a man? or a man who changed to a woman?)
and no - God doesn't make mistakes.
Quecat
Re:But again - what if? If she were real, I certainly don't want to answer to the Lord someday for stumbling a little sister Christian in her walk.
Heb 13:2 - " Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."
pattiepie is no angel, obviously, but you never know who you are talking to.
I'm not surprised. When the Pattie character persisted, I had only a few ways to deal with her.
Either call her out as a phony - which would serve no purpose.
Pander to her - in the event she was really Howard playing a joke on everyone. I mean so long as she's talking to me, I can freely share the Gospel without being shouted down, huh?
Ignore her - which, if she were real, would be horribly insensitive.
Granted, it's unlkely that someone with her seemingly limited education would actually be participating in an online forum, much less have a computer or for that matter continue to subject herself to the not unexpected derision.
But again - what if? If she were real, I certainly don't want to answer to the Lord someday for stumbling a little sister Christian in her walk.
Thanks for the intel.
Okay, why exactly was my post flagged?? It had no inappropriate content. I wasn't making fun or calling anyone names. I simply want to know what "As a transgender woman..." means.
Seriously, is that a man as a woman or a woman as a man?? Consider me ignorant on the subject...I just want it clarified, thanx.
yes
Lacking patience for fighting the same battles over and over - but sticking it out none the less.
Lord grant me patience
Quecat
Are you still here?
...and as for "open hearts, open minds, open doors" - I take it that's a UMC catch phrase of some sort?
How about something more truthful: "open hearts- we embrace sin, open minds- we embrace false doctrine, open doors - ours lead straight to perdition".
You seem to think this is some sort of UMC-lovefest. It's not.
John Wesley would NOT even recognize the modern Methodist church.
I don't doubt that many of her ministers are unfit for the pulpit.
However if blatant unfitness for the ministry is a hallmark of Methodist ministers, it's no wonder that you'd believe that practising homosexuals should be allowed to the party. You're right there, ...a definite double-standard.
Go on and knock yourself out.
But the BIBLICAL standard for ministers of a BIBLICAL church is:
Titus 1:5b-11 "ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake."
Our Friend Quecat makes a list: "another excluded group - hmmm...
unrepentant adulterers
unrepentant liars
unrepentant thieves
unrepentant idolators [sic]
unrepentant gluttons
shall I continue?"
Sure. How about I list the sins on your list that I haven't seen in an active clergy person. I'll limit myself to the past five years.
...
There, all done.
(Gluttons? Seriously? Have you never stepped into a church or something?) If we were to go back oh, say 60 years, we could probably add African Americans, women, and a host of other formerly excluded groups.
Anyway, it's pretty clear that you're set on this path. Good luck with it. I DO wish you'd have at least attempted to listen instead of just reciting your (false) gotchas again. That gets tired really fast.
For what it's worth, I don't think the UMC is going to change their bigoted policy this year. Hopefully by mid-2012 we'll be able to honestly say that we have "open hearts, open minds, open doors".
Also for what it's worth, I agree that 1 Corinthians 15:33-34 is wonderfully apt this week.
Titus 2: 11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Salvation without repentance?
Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).
If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.
When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).
If repentance wasn’t necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)?
It would seem that Matt is a proponent of the First Church of the Carnal Man - "let's all wallow happily in our sins unashamed while professing we're under absolute unconditional grace"
nice fantasy world you've got there.
Matt says : "homosexuality isn't a sin" .... The gospel according to Matt.
another excluded group - hmmm...
unrepentant adulterers
unrepentant liars
unrepentant thieves
unrepentant idolators
unrepentant gluttons
shall I continue?
There are many alcoholic people, and people who have a weakness for pornography, and many people who habitually lie, who call themselves Christian....
who know better than to "come out" and declare that they "embrace" their sin, are proud of their lifestyle and have no intent to change.
2Cr 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!... even so we also should walk in newness of life."
2Th 3:13-15 "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother. "
Accept the repentant sinner who is yet struggling against his sin? Most certainly! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! The word says have no company with him!
I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a fellowship and demand that those of the body of Christ redefine-away a sin so that he may cater to his carnal lusts. Man may be fooled, but God isn't.
Quecat said: "Are you implying that habitual and unrepentant sin is somehow the same?"
No, I'm pretty clearly not. Setting aside for a moment the fact that homosexuality isn't a sin (Read the first paragraph of my first post. Thanks.), we've decided that most OT sins aren't relevant anymore; to use your vernacular, they're "under the blood of Jesus". Yet for some reason, we have decided that homosexuality should exclude people from ordination, even though it (by that rationale) should also be "under the blood of Jesus". (I'm having trouble coming up with another excluded group. Can you think of one?)
Also, being a woman isn't a sin, but it was ordered in the NT that they should not hold positions of authority in the church. Years ago the UMC decided that that rule wasn't relevant to the church of the 20th century. There is no such exclusion in the OT or NT against homosexuals being ordained.
Quecat also said: "Or is it merely bigoted to point out that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE."
No, it's bigoted to think that, because of this one aspect of one's character, they're less than you. It's pretty textbook bigotry, and it needs to be stamped out.
How appropriate.
Today's devotional from John MacArthur:
“Do not be deceived: ‘Bad company corrupts good morals.’ Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”
- 1 Corinthians 15:33-34
"The apostle Paul knew that those in the Corinthian church were being exposed to the heretical theology. This false teaching was having a bad influence on the Corinthians’ behavior. That’s why Paul tells them in today’s verse, “Bad company corrupts good morals.” It is impossible to be around evil people and not be contaminated both by their ideas and their habits.
This glimpse at the situation in Corinth proves that sound doctrine matters and does affect how people live. "
Past sins - and sins that we yet struggle with are under the blood of Jesus when we repent and ask forgiveness.
Are you implying that habitual and unrepentant sin is somehow the same?
Or is it merely bigoted to point out that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
Perhaps your bible has in some fashion rewritten Paul's treatise in Romans 7 to remove the sense of anguish over his sins.
Rom 7:19 "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."
Mine hasn't - it says:
Rom 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
Straightstreet said, "Homosexual and Christian are complete OPPOSITES. HELLO!"
No they aren't. I think the word you're looking for is 'incompatible', but even then you're wrong. Look at the original text in the original language. It doesn't say what we've been told it says. For more information on that, head to whosoever.org.
That aside, I've been fortunate to know many ministers in the UMC. I know ministers who are convicted felons. I know ministers who are divorced. I know ministers who had affairs while serving a local congregation, divorced their wives, then married their mistresses. I know ministers who are women, and women who are also divorced. I know ministers who are estranged from their parents. I know ministers who have tattoos, who enjoy eating at Red Lobster, and who wear polyester vestments when they preach the Word of God.
The UMC (including me) has no problem with any of these, even though each should be prohibited by the UMC's rationale against gay clergy.
It's time for this policy, this bigoted policy, to be removed and for the UMC to finally become whole.
I have to say that I think Canadian Christian knocked this one out of the park. I also agree with this quote from the article:
"While the church should minister to them, she says, leadership should not be an option."
We in the UMC would not turn the pulpit over to an unrepented thief, murderer, or an adulterer. So I don't see why people get bent out of shape because we have taken this stance on not allowing unrepented homosexuals to have a platform either.
"As a transgender woman..."
I'm really not trying to ridicule, but does that mean woman posing as a man or a man posing as a woman. I think the confussion alone shows how wrong this is.
Kellibusy
I will be praying for you that the Spirit of Christ will come upon you and show you how much He loves you and how much grace and forgiveness He does have for you, and that you dont have to fear the truth, if you will submit yourself to Him and the truth. I trust that in my intercession for you that Christ through His Spirit will adjust my heart and fill it with a better understanding of who you are and how I can better minister you and others in your difficult situation. I also pray that He will increase my ability to love all He has created. God does not make mistakes like putting men in womens bodies or women in mens bodies. It has nothing to do with genetic mapping. It has everything to do with the fall of man and his sinfull nature. Good news He didnt cause it but, He can fix it if you let Him.
In Christian love...
As a transgender woman of faith I have been blessed with a church that is affirming. This has given me the pathway to spiritual fulfillment. I am able to witness in person at the 2008 GMC. It is my hope that the true value of the blessings in your mist that personify as the gender diverse will be recognized and embraced.
How is this even an issue in th Church?
This just shows how many tares are mixed in with the wheat. So many false Christians trying to change God's Word to suit their sin, no different than the world they are conformed to. It's not hard anymore to tell a wolf from a sheep nowadays, all one has to do is "know a tree by their fruit", because quite simply those who refuse to obey god's Word have rotting fruit.
Homosexual and Christian are complete OPPOSITES. HELLO!
kc95819 "You think evil is a myth?"
no
Wondering, and others...
We should never forget that JESUS reached out to everyone- BUT HE also told them to REPENT of their sin and to believe in HIM. If THE HOLY SPIRIT is leading the lost to the LORD JESUS CHRIST we should encourage that person by ministering to them, praying with and for them, doing bible study with them, sharing our testimony with them, praising GOD with them and continually pointing them towards CHRIST our LORD for their salvation. If they are truly saved they will NOT want to continue in sinful ways( whatever that sin/sin's may be) we should continue to disciple them so they become stronger in their faith. The WORD of GOD is clear- if that person continues blatantly, without remorse, flauntingly sinning and denigrating the sacrIfice of JESUS and the grace of GOD they were given we as believer's must SEPERATE from them and their UNGODLY ways. Have a great day and stay true to the LORD and HIS WORD, IN JESUS NAME.
Our jobs as Christians is to embrace and tell the flock (God's children) Transsexual, Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or anyone else Straight or otherwise, what Jesus is all about. Not to use little parts of the Bible to push the flock away. I do hope UMC will accept the challenge to reach out to and embrace the entire flock.
scitsonga- "Uh no, actually errors in genetic mapping is the cause of a person being in a mismaatched body.
read up on genetics for the technical details.
FYI the anti-christ is a myth. "
Hum
You think evil is a myth? Do you think Jesus was never tempted by it?
john14-6
" Uh, no, "Phoenix", it wasn't the *Spirit of Christ* that you were led by...try the *other* one. It was the spirit of antichrist, the spirit of the evil one, that led you. Read your Bible. "
Uh no, actually errors in genetic mapping is the cause of a person being in a mismaatched body.
read up on genetics for the technical details.
FYI the anti-christ is a myth.
I really hope the UMC does more than just ignore this misguided minority and actually offers a constructive, persuasive restatement of the church's teaching for 2000 years. The Catholic Church has done a lot of great philosophical and theological work in this regard, such as John Paul II's 'Love and Responsibility' and 'Theology of the Body' homilies, or see Dietrich von Hildebrand's works.
Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
'"It was in the context of my faith in Christ, led by the Spirit, that I made the transition (of gender)," Phoenix said."'
Uh, no, "Phoenix", it wasn't the *Spirit of Christ* that you were led by...try the *other* one. It was the spirit of antichrist, the spirit of the evil one, that led you. Read your Bible.
Go ahead, UMC, slip into straight out (no pun) apostasy. Ignore the Word of God in favor of what your itching ears want to hear. The UMC, just like the Episcopalian Church in America, are going right over the cliff, and they are taking hundreds of thousands of their members, maybe millions, straight to hell with them.
Every Bible believing Christian who knows the Word and hears it, knows these are false teachings, should be fleeing these denominations.