The Bible has long been a fixture in hotel rooms across the United States. But a new and increasingly prevalent trend set by upscale boutiques is emptying bedside drawers of the holy book that has brought comfort to millions of downtrodden hotel guests.
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Why are Bibles Disappearing from Hotels?
Hip hotels setting the trend of removing Bibles from rooms
By
Jennifer Riley
Christian Post Reporter
Thu, Nov. 15 2007 02:53 PM EST
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It takes only a minute to check if Gideon Bibles are located in the guest rooms of the hotel.
I will support those hotel chains that support the presence of the Bible offered for guest & those who do not offer pornography.
If only concerned believers would mobilize their collective stewardship resources, we can make a difference!
Well, its nice to know someone is humble enough to admit he doesnt know everything ^^.
Now if you're talking about a Christian admitting their wrong in one or more of their convictions, that is also something I struggle with daily. That question is what "keeps me honest". It drives me to study the scriptures for the truth. There are many things that I once believed, that I have learned was incorrect. Or maybe, not necessarily incorrect, but that there is more to it than I thought. But you have those Christians who will distort the truth and twist it to fit their agenda, to suit their purpose. As someone wrote in one of these message boards..."God made us in His image,,and now we are trying to return the favor." I strive daily to let God be who He is in my life. He is a dangerous God! Very dangerous! But He is a good God. His Word is true and just. He is a God of love and mercy and forgiveness, but He is also a God of discipline, judgement, and power. Most people want Him to be a God of love and mercy. But they balk at the idea of a God who expects us to be accountable. That's where apostasy takes root.
token
"a Christian who will admit Christianity is based on faith is beginning to me to seem non-existant.." That is so true. It doesn't mean that Christianity is flawed, just people are. People are trading the truth for something a little more palatable.
"
You guys know the bible, you guys believe in religious experience... Thats fine... But that you guys will never say "well I might be wrong..." I wrestle with that quite a bit. I've wondered that more times than i care to admit. But I could spend my whole life wondering if I am wrong...whether as a Christian, agnostic, athiest, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I could go from religion to relgion (or lack of religion) and spend my life in turmoil. My Christianity is based on faith. To seriously entertain the question "am I right in my belief" would denote lack of faith. Because of my faith, I have seen God do some amazing things in my life.
I know much of what I said will spark controversy... and because you will be offended by what I say, you will blow off all of what I say... I know I could of gone about it a different way... I know I should of been kinder... I know I shouldnt have been rude... and I appologize ahead of time... I just wish you guys would humble yourselves a tad bit.... None of us have absolute knowledge... so arrogance is unnecessary...
But what I have to frown at is that none of you guys will accept the doubt. Socrates said that wisdom is knowing that one knows nothing. A man with wisdom will not claim to know something he does not know. You guys know the bible, you guys believe in religious experience... Thats fine... But that you guys will never say "well I might be wrong..." makes me frown.... I say im atheist, but im actually agnostic. I dont know one way or the other..... But I reject all religions currently conceived by man kind. Or any holy scripture that claims to be created through the 'will' of God. But even with my confidence that all current religions are wrong, I still will not say that I KNOW any religion is wrong. I simply choose to put 'faith' in my belief that all religions are wrong. I see nothing wrong with faith, and I wish Christians would admit that it boils down to faith.
And before you guys take me the wrong way, I say a Christian with tolerance is a rare sight because of Christians out loook on : Gays and their intolerance to believing it is something born in a person, Evolution and the scientific soundness of the theory, Atheists this one is a tad bit obvious, and depending on the person, other religions... for various reasons... This list is expandable, but these are most topical.
I have no quarrel with any of you, just simply the beliefs you guys hold.... I have allotted to Christianity the respect it deserves for creating a respectable human being, but at the same time I also realize its flaws and the downsides it creates in a Christan man or woman.... These flaws are the reason Atheists are attacked.... A Christian with tolerance is a rare sight... a Christian who believes in evolution is even rarer... Hell a Christian who will admit Christianity is based on faith is beginning to me to seem non-existant... You guys are a tad bit unreasonable... Most catholics will outright admit its based on faith and wont even get to trying to make it more than that...
Best to be educated in a problem that will soon may be a nation wide conflict ^^.
Its a complicated situation this whole religion thing... but the reason I am on this site is because, while I've spent a good portion of my time seeing the arguements for and against religion, I've yet to myself enter the fray.... this site would be the first time I have ever argued with Christians to the extent that I have.... I am simply getting a feel for the arguements you guys use, and the rebuttles that will most likely be effective...
Mmm... I disagree with violence.. my stance on religion has little to do with my stance on violence... A holy war sounds not at all like a good solution to any problem... Why do atheists care about religion? Simple.... I go to hotels too... I live by the same laws you do... I salute the same flag... I learned from the same science classes that you did... all of these are places in which Christianity has imposed, or tried to impose, its beliefs upon me...
a temporal, fleeting solution to a longer term problem....
Using an iPod docking station, a flat-screen TV, a selection of underground music, a complimentary goldfish, or in some edgier hotels – an intimacy kit is a cheap substitute for the comfort and assurance that the Bible can give.
prodriver...its the nature of the beast.
I just ask myself, why atheists come along and talk here about bible-topics. I mean, is their any harm, any suffering coming from believing christians towards them?
Why do you waste your time here, reading about God and what´s going on in his kingdom?
I just don´t see a reason - is it the fact that it IS true what the bible says and you just try to find reasons for not believing? There are many, if you try to make up God in his believers.
Bibles in Hotels are an invitation to seekers and many blessings came from bible in those places.
Pornos and alcohol are happy welcome, pornos brought loads of sin and devorces and so on.
True believe in the word of God, true living of Gods love through his followers, brings out Christ in you - give God a serious try to change your live and you will see and forget your idea on believers that failed their trail. God does not make Christians lives perfect and mistakeless, but forgiven - everyday. Bibles in Hotels are Gods invitation to people who seek more to live in a quiete almost isolated place. This is one of the places where God can be found.
Disagree all you want, token. it's still true. And since you are an atheist, of course you're going to disagree with anything the Bible says. So what's your point?
Sounds violent... I have to respectably disagree with that.
I second that. "For the mystery of lawless is already at work,only He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.And then that lawless one will be revealed,whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2: 7&8
It's a crying shame that the bible is being thrown out of practically every public place in America. Disappearing bibles from hotels seems like something we should expect. I think the next development is banning the bible from being sold in bookstores to protect the public from whatever America is afraid of. I think that Christians have not been vocal and militant enough to stop non-Christians from getting their way. Let's call up these hotels and tell them that we will only use their hotels if they put the Gideon bibles back. Let's declare a holy war, as it were, on all those who seek to make the bible invisible!
I have always been told since I was a little girl that these bibles were always free to take. I have never taken on because I always had my own.
its all very interesting, but I'm waiting for the movie to come out....
And what you said "A group of scientists [in Spain, I think] have theorized that the signature of our "brane-world" (the meta space in which our universe resides) is going to flip from Lorentzian to Euclidean." I heard it had something to do with the fact that sometime during 2012 that our solar system is going to be level with the center of the galaxy or that the planets are going to be in line with the center of our galaxy (because some scientists still believe that everything that happens in our galaxy is determined by our cute little planet), but whatever it is, it will cause this "flip" or whatever which will cause our solar system to do something that will destroy earth....yada yada yada....yawn....
yes, muggle. I've heard discussions on this Dark Matter. The way it was presented is that it was thought up to explain the reason behind the acceleration. They had no other explanation, so they came up with a theory. That's all it is at this point. That's not my opinion...that is what was expressed in the article I read about that.
And pardon my ignorance, but what did you mean by the comment "Prophet???? I'm trying VERY hard right now NOT to make a joke about a particular atheist's head occupying the same space as his behind, and then exclaiming "OH NO! It's already happened!"?
Prophet,
>> They also claim that that expansion is slowing and eventually everything will collapse in on itself <<
Actually ... Oh you're gonna love this ... it's even better.
Scientists have now shown that galaxies and other celestial masses moving away from us are actually accelerating ... Some suspect "dark matter" which no one has seen (probably because it's SO DARK *smirk*), has something to do with it.
It gets better ... Oh, we're on the fringe now! A group of scientists [in Spain, I think] have theorized that the signature of our "brane-world" (the meta space in which our universe resides) is going to flip from Lorentzian to Euclidean. Please don't ask me to explain it ... I really don't know all the math. What does this mean? Time is about to become a space-like dimension. X-files buffs figure it'll happen around 2012, coincidental to the Mayan Calender :^)
So theoretically, that means that any number of events could simultaneously exists ... also meaning that any number of things could occupy the same space at the same time.
Prophet???? I'm trying VERY hard right now NOT to make a joke about a particular atheist's head occupying the same space as his behind, and then exclaiming "OH NO! It's already happened!"
Oh yeah ... I almost forgot. This wasn't the only universe *pfft!*. There were infinite universes before this one, which can be explained by Quantum Loop Gravity Theory. This universe is the last one ... Apparently, there's a lot of math to explain this. Forget that the equations have theorized factors on either side of them.
Torus
To believe that the universe had no beginning...or believe in a God that had no beginning. Im trying to decide which takes more faith.
Science claims that the universe came from one giant mass of "stuff" in "space" because the galaxies and nebulas and such are moving away from each other. That is the foundation for the "Big Bang" Theory. They also claim that that expansion is slowing and eventually everything will collapse in on itself. But the question is "where did that giant mass of "stuff" come from. many experts believe that it came from another dimension through some kind of rift. It's hard to explain, but it's deep and REALLY cool! But that opens another question. If our "stuff" came from "stuff" from another dimension...where did THAT "stuff" come from? Did it come from "stuff" from yet another dimension? Did the big bang of their "stuff" cause a rift between our dimensions allowing our "stuff" to seep through? But, we as humans, need to find the beginning. Maybe that's why it's hard for us to believe in a God that is eternal.....
Well hopefully if things pan out the correct way religion will be left for everyone to believe in for their own selves, and politics will be discerned without having to refer to religion. Theres no need to shut anyone out.
To Torus:
Two reasons.
One: I look around and see what is around me. I see what has happened on this planet and the accomplishments that people have done here. And I ask myself, what are the odds that all this stuff accummulated on this planet, for us to do with as we have? My conclusion is that it is astronomically impossible for this planet to have been formed by accident, to have the minerals and materials needed to sustain human life, as it has. At the very least, intelligent design.
Two: God has made Himself real to me. He has told me to read His word, and His Word says that He created the Heavens and the Earth. Since God has made himself real to me, and I know He will never lie to me, I will take Him at His word.
'Why are you so sure that this planet, this universe, came from somewhere? Perhaps it's been around forever?'
For someone who holds up science as a religion this is an interesting statement considering modern cosmology disputes this misguided idea of an eternal universe.
Even if you wanted to claim that the universe could collapse onto itself and 'rebound' to concur the issue of an eternal universe is refuted as well since the universe does not contain enough mass for this to occur.
Face it, the universe is not eternal, it is finite. What begins, must have a beginning... and if something has a beginning, then something had to cause it to begin.
JC -
Why are you so sure that this planet, this universe, came from somewhere? Perhaps it's been around forever?
To BobC
Dear one, I'm sorry I took so long to answer your post. I will not stop the using words like beloved and dear one, because I truly feel that way. This is the love that God has put in my heart. I am not capable of loving you, I don't even know you. But with God's love, I am capable. He has put in me a heart for the lost, and dear one, you seem very lost at the moment.
On my question of whether you can name anything people have created, your answer was somewhat colorful. However, even you said "nothing". Therefore, with that logic, it is impossible for humans to create something from nothing. But, dear one, are we not living on a planet, in a solar system. Where did this come from. It can't just pop up out of nothing.
Therefore, applying that logic, it would be safe to assume that where we live was created. Now the next question would obviously be who created it. We know that something does not come from nothing without some sort of intervention. Since scientists have never acknowledged a creator, they are only working with half a picture. They can't say for sure how the Earth came about, only theories. Without that knowledge, they can only form incomplete conclusions.
Here's your choices, the way I see it. You can still refuse to open your eyes to what is around you, and deny it's existence, or you can open your eyes and see what is there. If you choose the latter, you must acknowledge a creator, otherwise you are denying that all the stuff around you, trees, grass, etc., and are thinking they are just in your mind, and don't really exist at all. This would be self-dillusional, and not very healthy.
God, (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit), does exist. All one has to do is open their eyes and look around. We are standing on his creation.
Beloved, there is a reason God said "Seek and you shall find". His is a perfect love, and we will never be forced into a relationship with him. But, if we honestly and earnestly seek him, we will not be disappointed. That's the way it works, we must seek Him, before he reveals He has been seeking us the entire time.
I ask you another question now: Is it easier for society to lie, or tell the truth?
Gee somtimes I amaze myself in my scatter brain thoughts at times. Old age I guess. Anyway to finish my thought. It is the fear that you all will be successful in shutting us down and shutting us out of the public square again which is contary to the orginal intent of the Founders of this counrty.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
TokenSP You have a right to your beliefs but the fear of Christians and the increase in lawsuits bear this out, is that laws like which the ACLU constantly files against any religious expression in the puplic square, public schools of goverment. Contary to what the orginal intent of the founders if this country want and put in place with the Consistution and it's amendments.
Please referance if you want the book ACLU vs American, Alan Sears and Craig Osten
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Could the fact that almost 50% of America's moderate hotels are owned by
non-Christians from India have something to do with the disappearing Bibles?
Muggle..
"Prophet. Please pray for me, that I walk WITH the Holy Spirit when I speak, and not ahead of Him. Thanks again." That's what I mean by the Peter Syndrome. lol. When our passion and mouth run faster than our brains can think. And we end up sticking our foot in our mouth. I promise to pray for you, if you'll pray for me. God bless you.
I must admit, when I read the title of this article, I was worried the Mexicans, or east European immigrants, were going to be blamed! It is a relief to see that it is the fault of condoms and Strip-Yahtzee games.
TokenSP,
>> Still though the majority shouldnt trump the minorities rights <<
You are absolutely RIGHT! There are some deeper implications though that we will at some point have a chance to discuss. I've actually got to head off to bed. I'll look out for you in later dialogs. Have a good night all, and God bless.
Prophet. Please pray for me, that I walk WITH the Holy Spirit when I speak, and not ahead of Him. Thanks again.
Oh yes this country is christian has been christian and is only just recently been anything else.. now the other religions are getting a voice, catholics are getting positions in office, atheists are speaking up, and so on and so forth... but since the beginning this nation has been Christian. Last I checked 75% of the population was Christian. Still though the majority shouldnt trump the minorities rights =/. I think it only fair that we all have a right to have our own beliefs.
TokenSP,
>> I would only be offended if you were happy that I would be going to hell... << Absolutely NOT! ... would it be OK, here to say "Hell no!" I've had a terrible time (had to pray a lot) trying to forgive some people in my past that have wronged me ... but I pray for them too, now. I don't want to see anyone go to Hell. Unfortunately though, in the words of Al Gore ... it may just be an "inconvenient truth".
TokenSP, some are going tell you different ... but America WAS founded as Christian nation, with Christians making up the majority in both civilian and statesmen population. Just Google the letters of George Washington, sometime. I don't have it handy, but I'll try and find the exact site I'm thinking of. You can punch in keyword; God, Christian, Savior, etc... into their local search engine, and it will feed you the letter references containing those words.
Chime in on some of the other articles. I'll hunt up the link and post for you.
no offense taken I know you meant everything you said, and its just what the Bible preaches! Which is perfectly fine! We all have our beliefs, and those beliefs may be different, and they tend to be! so I thank you for your concern, I would only be offended if you were happy that I would be going to hell...
TokenSP ... I hear ya! Let's keep the future open.
Prophet ... LOL. I think so ... I may want to corroborate it with you at a later date, though.
mmm ay you have a point... personally I wouldnt bother at all with Christians, I would just politely say I am atheist, but thank you for your concern, and go on about my buisness.... but its that Christians are playing a much more active role in politics maybe as a backlash to the muslim hatred of our country... but they are... and I can understand where there is a need to come together, and Christianity has that adhesive property to it, but now you guys are making policies based upon your beliefs and then forcing us to follow the doctrine of your religion... I hold law in the same respect you hold the ten commandments, and I think the laws are for the most part just, but now you are trying to impose the laws of the bible into our law, and now its as if I have to adhere to the bible... (This may seem like a perfect thing ot do to you but to me it means you are forcing me to be christian) and thats where we need to say, woah you are getting a tad bit carried away.... I agree that say something such as stemcell research can be seen as bad under certain lights such as the lighting of christianity, but why not allow us to advance our science, and if you disagree then dont allow your children to partake in it... but allow our children as atheists to do so... if I could save my child only through the methods of something regarding stem cell, I would go out of my way to do so...
Thanks, Prophet.
And I've thought it over; so, Token ... I apologize for my rather venomous response. And I do mean all the positives I've said. I have thought deeply about what it would have meant for me if there was no God. In some respects it would actually be easier ... I'm not afraid of blinking out of existence, altogether. But philosophically/logically, I couldn't do it. There are a lot of good arguments for God's existence ... and still more for his love for us.
If you're going to listen to atheistic arguments, don't base your beliefs (or unbeliefs) on the actions of people ... particularly Christians. We've already admitted we're sinners. At least be an honest skeptic. And God bless. I'll be praying for you, and torus, and "The Well ... Guy of Eastern European Heritage".
And realizing that, we must let you go your own way, and do your own thing....as much as it hurts us to do so.
I understand where you guys are coming from because I know that it seems like to you that we are going to hell and you guys are just trying to save us from this doom, and I totally understand why its so hard to try and let us go our own way... but I can assure you that most atheists who are truly atheists, have 0 fear of hell so to you its the case of a child whos aobut to stick his hand in a bees nest to us its as if the bees nest was never there.... anyways though thats why this is so difficult!!!! you try to be polite and save us at the same time, but theres no evidence to convince us and we try to show you theres no God but have to battle against faith and this never ending fear.... =[ we are at oddsss
You and me, my friend, have what's called "The Peter Complex". I hope you know what I mean by that.
muggle
I chuckle because I am more like you than you think. I am very passionate about my convictions. And i feel your passion too. You don't know how many times I'll be writing a post, and I feel God pulling on my reins saying "whoa!". LOL. I've even gone back and flagged some of my own posts because I felt the conviction of God after i hit submit button. But I am so thankful for His grace. Without it, life's not worth living. I hope that if you ever see me getting out of hand that you will let me know as well.
He still does a good job of speaking up for his belief system. I particularly loved this bit -
"And don't give me any of the "Where's the evidence" garbage argument".
Sums it all up in a sentence.
Prophet,
You're absolutely right, and please keep fighting the good fight. I know I get out of line ... more than sometimes. You'll probably notice it more in the future. But I know you're understanding, and at least sympathetic to what I'm saying.
Sometimes I have a difficult time being humble. Let me at least assure you that I do care about helping people come to know God. Others have helped me, and I've been standing on the sidelines too long.
Token, i apologize for muggle. His intentions are good, but his delivery lacks the love and grace that our Lord portrayed. I know how he feels. I sometimes get frustrated, but I try to remove myself before I become condecending.
I think it's great that Christinas are preaching about Logic now! Maybe one day, they'll undertsand what it means...
TokenSP,
BTW ... Christians don't have a negative view of humanity. After all, we're part of it ... whether torus likes it or not. None of us is saved without grace. Why don't you pretend ... JUST pretend for the moment ... that there might be some small shadow of a chance that there is, in theory, from a hypothetical perspective, a remote possibility ... blah blah blah blah blah ... that there is a God, and Heaven and Hell. Going on that presumption, whether you were Mother Theresa, Hitler, Thomas Aquinas, or Charles Darwin ... without Jesus' sacrifice, you're still going to Hell ... by default. THIS is the Christian perspective. It is an observation, NOT a judgment, BTW. So why are you speaking as if Christians make some fundamental distinction between themselves and unbelievers? We've simply said "Yes" to a gift. You've said "What gift?"
I certainly don't consider myself any more important to God than you are. I only come across as being sarcastic (and sometimes a little condescending) because some of the reasoning ... if you can call it that ... of you and your brethren just winds me up to no end. It's like telling a 5-year old not to stick his hand in that bee's nest, and being forced to watch him as his eyes widen with wonder ... and he sticks his stinkin' hand in the stinkin' bee's nest. You absolutely DEFY LOGIC. And don't give me any of the "Where's the evidence" garbage argument. If God created the natural universe, and He is above and beyond a natural existence, it's not like there's going to be "residual" natural evidence everywhere you look. I certainly don't shed my skin into the fish tank after feeding the fish.
oh geez, muggle. that is not necessary.
I didn't say you were that type. I look at the whole, not the part. Just like with Christianity. I would certainly benefit the cause of most atheists to point out the individuals or few who are bad apples to say that Christians are losers. But when you look at the whole, you come up with a different perspective. Just because someone has a few pimples on their face, doesn't make them ugly.
TokenSP,
>> Im atheist and I am none of those... whats that say? <<
Right now, it just says that you're murdering the English language.
Im atheist and I am none of those... whats that say?
"Many others have turned to the Bible when in crisis. Some have even decided against suicide when they read from the Gideon’s Bible."
Unfortunately, one unfortunate poor hotel guest with suicidal ideation flicked his Gideon's open to 2 Samuel 17. Hotel staff discovered his body in the morning. Hopefully, the downtrodden wouldn't find the other bible verses that wouldn't help the suicidal -
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_bibl.htm
What makes me worry? Let me repeat..."unwanted teen pregnancies, AIDS, STD's, drug usage, drunk drivers, murderers, thiefs, rapists, incestuous relationships, sodomy, etc, etc." That's what makes me worry.
:P why do christians have such a negative view of humanity? Are we not made of the same things as you? If we are all instilled morality, as hardwird by God, what makes you worry that we'll be evil? And havent you noticed, Europe is leaving us in the dust, while we stay in the past dwelling on our various Gods, telling our scientists that they are evil for finding the cure for this disease or that... while the Europeans are laughing at our scientists for being in such a pitiful position...
But I do like that old saying "survival of the fittest". While the rest of the world is "evolving" itself to death, Christians will endure and thrive.
I like that kind of progress...unwanted teen pregnancies, AIDS, STD's, drug usage, drunk drivers, murderers, thiefs, rapists, incestuous relationships, sodomy, etc, etc. Now THAT'S progress. (sarcasm intended)
Personally, any time I stay in a hotel, if I find a bible in the hotel room I throw it away.
Just doing my bit to help humanity progress.
yes, but many people have gone into hotels distraught, or angry, or even at life's end...and picked up a Bible and read it...and their whole life was changed.
I dont think bibles should have been in hotels either... I think its a good thing that we are modernizing the hotels, and it doesnt have to be a sex thing... people dont go to hotels to read the bible, they go for a place to stay...
Bob heart is filled with hate. Pardon my frankness, but I wonder if there is any redeeming qualities in him. I'm sure there are, since God created him, and Jesus died for him. I pray that God would help me see what he sees.
1. Can you name any one thing that human beings have created since being on this planet?
You mean magically create out of nothing like your invisible man in the clouds? No. So what?
2. Do you believe in any god(s)?
No, of course not. Do you think I'm nuts?
By the way, you can cut out the Beloved garbage.
In the trendy New York City Soho Grand Hotel, for example, Bibles have never been offered in guest rooms because “society evolves,” explained hotel spokeswoman Lori DeBlois to Newsweek.
Yes, society is evolving:
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12)
To BobC
Beloved, may I ask you just two questions?
1. Can you name any one thing that human beings have created since being on this planet?
2. Do you believe in any god(s)?
Hint: Be careful with your answer on #1, for there is a difference in creating and manipulating creation.
Why are Bibles Disappearing from Hotels?
Because most customers don't read them. The world is slowing growing up and learning to live without the ancient superstitions in the boring insane bible.
The hotels don't supply (offer) the bibles. The Gideon's supply them. I'm sure the hotels would welcome books from other faiths if those faiths wanted to go the trouble to provide them.
I have to agree with the arguement, that in a nation that is based on the premise of equality, one cannot simply cater to one religion... its picking and chosing favorites... Besides angering other religion only leads to war... consider 9/11, and what do you think terrorist acts are based upon? Anyways, if it was completely equal then all holy texts would be offered... or none... just as a muslim can bring the koran, a christian can bring the bible
If the Muslims want to read the Koran while in a hotel... then they should bring their own... this nation was not founded by Muslims...
Everyone would probably agree that was a good thing...