The two fastest-growing church bodies in the United States and Canada, according to a newly published report, are ones whose beliefs are known to conflict with traditional Christian teaching.
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Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.
By
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Feb. 20 2008 01:10 PM EST
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The CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has a membership of over 13 million which was incorrectly reported in this article.
It is the only one I know of after all my investigating that best adheres to the Christian teachings from the Bible, Debra
Que
I appreciate the thought and study you put into the subject, it was also very nice that you shared a part of that journey. God bless you all.
God's plan is that all would hear the gospel before He returns. You may think that's impossible, but we are very close. The world is a lot smaller today. Mass media, and even more and more people being called to the mission field and reaching distant and previously unknown tribes, cultures, and people.
Vince,
Regarding your comment: “I see a just and merciful God with a plan for those who have never heard the gospel”.
What does scripture have to say about this matter? Well to be frank, I hadn’t previously looked into it closely. Certainly I had heard certain vague references to men’s own consciences convicting them that there is a God, but I hadn’t followed that to its logical conclusion. But after a very long night of intensive bible study I can say that it’s rather plain what the “plan” is. Care to follow along with what I’ve learned?
Rom 2:11-16 “For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; For when Gentiles who DO NOT HAVE THE LAW do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”
Those without knowledge of the Gospel and the Law are judged by their conscience. If they violate their conscience then they have rebelled against their creator who gave us all the knowledge of right and wrong. (Conscience = literally “With knowledge”) Conscience is actually the Law written in our hearts. That their “thoughts” can “defend them” in the day of judgment,would certainly indicate that such is possible!
(continued below)
(continued from above)
It is also made clear that God has made Himself obvious to man through the general revelation of creation:
Rom 1:18-22 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools”
The general revelation of God through creation spoils any possible excuse man may have in saying that he never knew there is such a thing as God, even without the benefit of specific revelation.
So who are these that “do not honor God” and whose own “consciences accuse them”? They are by nature “children of wrath…dead in trespass and sin…walking according to the course of this world” (Eph 2:1-3) And what is to become of these?
Rev 20:11 speaks of the Great White Throne Judgment of the unrighteous dead; of the great and small that are judged from the books according to their works. Rev 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
How does one’s name appear or not appear in this book?
Exd 32:33 “And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
ALSO
As the Lord said to John in Rev 3:5 “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
< Overcome = GREEK “Nikao” meaning: come off victorious - of those that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions>
Certainly God is merciful, but He is also just. “And there shall in no wise enter in…any thing that defileth.” Rev 21:27
I apologize if I misunderstood you. I read your quote to telling me what I and the LDS believe. Your words--"This is absolutely contrary to your belief that a just and holy God might bend the rules and allow the "ignorant" or "deceived" into glory. "-- I see a just and merciful God with a plan for those that have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know of no evangelical doctrine that allows for His mercy to be extend to those that would have accepted Christ had they had the opertunity in this life.
Again I am sorry, for the misunderstanding.
Our faith assures us that we are saved.
Our works prove we are saved.
Vince,
Back up there on both points.
I am only responding to your own words wherein you said: " But to say that God doesn't save the individual that never knew Christ and never had the chance to, is to take away from His Love and mercy."
As for being "judged by our works", I've not said not ever will say anything of the sort.
I think you are getting me confused with BigOnDrums who said ;" If works were not important, why would we be judged according to our works?"
RE: the former quote - please elaborate. By your most recent response you are either backpedaling from said quote, or it has been misunderstood.
Que - wrong again -
"This is absolutely contrary to your belief that a just and holy God might bend the rules and allow the "ignorant" or "deceived" into glory. God is absolutely holy and as such can abide no sin. It is ONLY Christ's blood covering us that makes us "as white as snow" before Gods eyes. If you don't have Christ's blood, you can't enter in. And not just ANY "Christ", but the one, true Christ. Simple as that."
I don't believe nor is it LDS Doctrine what you just said. In fact the Book of Mormon teaches that one can't be saved in ignorance. So I don't know where you got that thought from. And like some one with only part of the truth (cause you only have part of the scriptures given to man by God) I can agree with alot of what you said, but again you haven't explained how the bible can say Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." and then say that we are judged by our works. if that isn't a contradiction then I don't know what is. You need further revelation and inspiration from God. see prophets.
It is possible to be deceived.
Luke 21:8 And (Jesus) said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye NOT therefore after them.
Following the TRUE Christ is of utmost importance. Jesus is saying don't follow these other "Christs".
Jesus further says:
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will (Christ) profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
<Iniquity - GREEK "anomia" to trangress the law either by willful contempt or by ignorance of it.>
Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
This is a sobering thing! These that say but "Lord Lord!" would appear to be people that thought that they were right with God, doing works in His name and prophesying (teaching) in His name and all. But he says they've worked "inquity", which would be in this case ignorantly transgressing the law and they did not know HIM and are thus condemned.
This is absolutely contrary to your belief that a just and holy God might bend the rules and allow the "ignorant" or "deceived" into glory. God is absolutely holy and as such can abide no sin. It is ONLY Christ's blood covering us that makes us "as white as snow" before Gods eyes. If you don't have Christ's blood, you can't enter in. And not just ANY "Christ", but the one, true Christ. Simple as that.
bigondrums,
You said "Prophet, We believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament" So the God of the old testament is a different God? The same God that said "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever"?
As for my grandmother. I can only pray. I can't judge the condition of her heart, but I can see her actions and perceive what she appears to place greatest emphasis upon, which gives me reason to be concerned as to her true condition.
Has she placed her hope of salvation on her works or on Christ's blood? Does she depend on a eucharistic piece of bread to maintain her fellowship with God or does she believe Christ's words when he said "It is finished!"?
Jer 17:10 But I know! I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve."
Vince,
You are making the assumption that the liberty derived from grace alone gives rise to license. It may for the deceived half-hearted pew-warmer hoping for fire insurance, but not for the truly obedient Christian who "studies to show himself approved"
He would find that Paul writes in Romans 6:1,2,4: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!... even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Also in Acts 26, Paul also testifies to King Agrippa that Jesus had commanded him: ".. I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both, of these things which thou hast seen...(and Paul) shewed first unto them (the Gentiles) that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
What you call the "evangelical view" is actually no such thing. "All you need to do is accept Christ" is ALSO NOT the gospel. Saying a little prayer at an altar call with no change in your life avails nothing. This is what Jesus speaks of in Matt 13:5,6 in the parable of the sower; "..Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth, And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
A contrite and broken heart over one's sin is what repentance is; a turning from one's separated-from-God ways, placing our faith in Christ's redeeming work on the cross, Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
Do you realize what this REALLY says? (and this was laid bare to my own heart only last year) that even our faith is the gift of God. It's not about us struggling to believe. HE gives us the faith, so I can't boast that I'm super faith-filled. What faith I have was granted to me by God! What's more, I don't have to give in to doubts, but place my trust wholly upon God to give me the necessary faith. (continued)
(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)
But having been justified and brought in to right relationship with God, we aren't to stop there!
Jesus says in John 14; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father....If ye love me, keep my commandments....And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever."
If we believe on Him, we will love him and if we love him we will keep his commandments and what's more, we WILL do works! But these works are NOT THE BASIS OF OUR SALVATION - but merely an outward sign of our inward condition!
This is what James refers to when he says "and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
And our works is not all. As we leave behind these first principles regarding our redemption having been acccomplished, we are to "go on to perfection". Paul adjures us in Hebrews; "THEREFORE, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, LET US GO ON TO PERFECTION, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment..."
Don't keep rehashing the basics; We are to "grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" 2 Pet 3:18.
Does all this sound like laziness to you? It sounds more like being "careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear." Phl 2:12
If works were not important, why would we be judged according to our works? Why would we be told faith without works is dead?
We are to follow the commandments of God. These are called works. We will be judged accordingly. We are not saved by our works, we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. However, this does not negate our responsibility to follow His commandments.
Even satan and his dominions believe in Christ. They are not saved. You can say you accept Christ and believe in him, and then murder 5 innocent people in a shooting rampage. Are you still saved? If so, and works don't matter at all, then why do we do anything good after we've accepted Christ as our Savior?
I would also submit that it is the evangelical view of Grace that takes away from Christ's Atonement and Power. I do works to glorify Him and His Father, I keep the commandments to show my Love and Faith in Him. (I am not perfect in my faith or works and must for that repent daily). But to say that God doesn't save the individual that never knew Christ and never had the chance to, is to take away from His Love and mercy. To say “I am saved by Grace alone”, takes away from the Grace He gave provides me to do good works. To say “All you need to do is accept Christ” opens the door to being lazy and not doing works of righteousness(Christ taught “that we should let our good works be seen, that we may glorify the Father which is in Heaven-Matt 5:16)
It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their(not Adam’s) sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.
Que, Again I love your passion and zeal, I am amazed at the knowledge of the bible and the misunderstanding of God's great plan.
To use your example if I may: your grandmother is not truly saved(definitions could be argued of what "saved" means), but is damned for eternity, because she takes the sacrament, and prays to her rosary etc? I would submit that God's Grace is sufficient for ALL. I would like to ask if your grandmother sees that these observiences are signs of her faith (James 2:18) in the Lord Jesus and she does them by commandment (If you love Christ you will keep His commandments) is the Lords mercy enough that she can be saved(using evangelical definition of saved)?
I know that God is just and merciful and since He will be the end all judge I fear not my salvation. And some day hope to say as Paul "I have fought the good Fight (works), I have finished my course (my part in Gods plan), I have kept the faith, (what I believe=I know that Jesus is the Christ, the messiah, my Redeemer, and only through Him can eternal life be gained)
Vince, It's not what I "think' of my own accord. It's what scripture declares. 2Peter2 speaks at length about false prophets and their fate, but also speaks of those who they "entangle", saying that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
There is no soul more difficult to preach the gospel of grace to, than the one who believes himself to already be right before God because of his own works.
I can see this dynamic in my own Catholic grandmother. She has been Catholic all her life and will listen to no one regarding her religion because she thinks she has DONE everything that is REQUIRED of her. Sure, she believes in Jesus and believes that she's saved, but her faith does not rest in Christ's blood alone. She believes she MUST partake of sacraments, she believes she MUST pray her rosary to Mary, and MUST this, and MUST that and on and on. This is all useless works and to add these things to the blood of Christ is to diminish Him and His sacrifice; to in essence say to Jesus "No, I don't believe that what you did was wholly sufficient for my salvation." This is no gospel at all !! Christ plus anything is a false sense of hope.
The apostle Paul points out that it is possible for us to become enslaved again after we have been set free. How does that happen? Whenever we add an element of self-effort (works or faith plus works) as a basis for gaining God's acceptance (the essence of legalism), we subject ourselves again to the yoke of slavery.
The Gospel is Christ and Him crucified, faith in Him and His shed blood as complete sufficiency for salvation. Faith plus NOTHING is my justification. Certainly my faith will naturally produce works by a grateful heart, but these works ADD NOTHING to my justification and never can. THIS is the liberty of the true gospel.
2Pe 2:19 Speaks of false prophets, " While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."
Gal 5:1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (legalism; works-based salvation). "
Serious Wilderness, do you see the LDS faith and Faithful as a "Moral Menace"?
I can understand John Quincy Adams saying that in ignorance and with the lack of communication and understanding of that time, but I can't imagine any logically thinking human (much less a "christian") believing that in this day and age.
Preface
“IT is not necessary to burden the reader with a history of how this book came to be written. Its genesis was a paper prepared as a contribution to local history. It has grown with the years; it has made use of sources not ordinarily accessible and possibly no longer in existence; and it is believed that it presents more completely the story of the birth of Mormonism than any publication now in print. It is sent forth with the hope that it will help to arouse the American people to endeavor more energetically to remove this moral menace to and blot upon our country--the greatest religious fraud of the nineteenth century, if not of all time.”
John Quincy Adams.
Auburn, New York, 1916.
(The Birth of Mormonism by John Quincy Adams, 1916)
Que, I appreciate your prayers, I need all I can get. Let me ask you honestly.
You said "I can think of nothing sadder than a life wasted in the utmost devotion to a false religion." So you think that it is better for a non-believer or atheist then some one who disagrees with your interpretations of the bible?
All I can say is, we feel the same towards you.
Prophet,
Their eyes have been blinded by the principalities and powers of this world. They are caught up and deceived by the lies that have been woven throughout the false gospel that they cling to.
We can but speak the truth in love and lay the entire matter at the feet of the Lord, in prayer.
We can talk until we're blue in the face, but for all our effort, our prayers for VinceGrimm, Hesadanza and BigonDrums will avail so much more!
God will redeem all His elect. We are allowed to be coworkers in His will by our prayers to Him on their behalf.
With God, all things are possible and Lord willing, we will see these folks in glory someday.
I can think of nothing sadder than a life wasted in the utmost devotion to a false religion.
I'm reminded of my time running track and field. It would be of little benefit to me to run the race of my life with all sincerity and put in an impressive performance, only to cross the finish line and discover that all alonog I've been at a stadium other than where the actual track meet had been taking place that day.
I missed a lot of posts it looks like, after I called it a day. Sorry about that.
Prophet, We believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. We believe that under the Father's instruction, all things that we know of were created. We are subject to Him. He is subject to the Father, as He showed us when He came in the flesh. I noticed there were a lot of scriptures thrown back and forth trying to prove both sides. I don't think either side is giong to convince the other they are wrong. And it doesn't look like either side is considering the other's point of view very well.
Where do you guys see this conversation going? Can it continue? Or should we agree to disagree and wish each other the best? It's up to you, I can do either.
So far, I'm seeing overwhelming evidence that Jesus is God. But no evidence to the contrary.
Colossians 1:16-17 says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Well, if Jesus created all things. Then He must be God. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning, God created the earth."
John 1 shows us that God and Jesus are one and the same.
John 8:58 shows that even Jesus speaks it.
And Genesis 1 shows that they are one.
Guess Who?
Members of the LDS Church are familiar with the charge that Mormonism isn't a Christian faith. They hear it often enough, but they really don't understand why people think that. "We are Christians," Mormon President Gordon B. Hinckley insisted. "We have the name of Jesus Christ right in the name of our Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We follow Christ. We worship Him. We love Him. He is the center of all we do"("Inspirational Thoughts," Liahona, June 1999, 3; 2 Nephi 25:24-29).
In the summer of 2005 we asked Mormons in Nauvoo, Illinois to take a quiz we called "Guess Who?" The quiz consisted of 15 relatively recent statements made by LDS leaders; we asked the participants to see if they could determine who their Church leaders were talking about. We invite you to take the same quiz. The answers will be at the end; see if you can do this without scrolling down for the answers.
1. His teachings "are the foundation of our faith. Everything we have is a lengthened shadow of [him]."
2. "I pray we may learn from his example, that we might incorporate into our lives the great principles which he so beautifully taught; that we ourselves might emulate him;..."
3. "I honor and revere [his] name... I delight to hear it; I love it. I love his doctrine... I am his witness."
4. "He died for those he loved. He reigns in the realms above."
5. The more I learn of him, the more I love and revere him."
6. "I look to him. I love him. I seek to follow him."
Continued below…
7. "He not only gave us joy, happiness and opportunity here, but also a great hope in the life to come."
8. "Today, this Sabbath day, in many thousands of congregations, perhaps as many as twenty-one thousand, in many areas of the earth, our people have sung or will sing the praises of [him]."
9. "Of noble seed, of heavenly birth, he came to bless the sons of earth."
10. He was "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."
11. "Church members are interested in learning more about [him] because they love him and they love the gospel he brought forth."
12. "How great indeed is our debt to him. ...Great is his glory,... We stand in reverence before him... Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas."
13. "...and he shall stand in due time on the earth, in the flesh, and fulfill that to which he is appointed."
14. "The light, provided to the world by [him], illuminates the confusion, clarifies the principles of the gospel, and helps lead men and women to their own eternal reward, if they will but endure to the end."
15. The "work that has been carried out by President Young and his brethren [of the Twelve] has been in accordance with the plans, and designs, and Spirit, and instructions of [him]."
How did you do? Go here to see: http://www.mrm.org/topics/jesus-christ/guess-who
Disclaimer: “We asked Mormons” is not in reference to me (wilderness).
Jacob wrestled with a fleshly incarnate God.
Prophet about your last comment I would love an explanation of what you mean. email me. Sorry I must cut it short.
Fellow believers in Christ I would love to continue this and I appreciate your sharing your point of view and interpetations of the scriptures it has been very enlightening. I must go for now but I leave a blessing of Love and good will to you. If you would like to continue any of these discussions please email me at =vince4jesus@gmail(dot)com. Thanks and God speed.
And, with you being LDS, I'm sure of where this conversation is going.
Okay if you are going to take it Literally, you conveniently left out "Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man..." is the bible contradicting it's self? or could it be that Jacob was figuratively wrestling before God? and after come out of this wrestle choose God and His ways and that is when God spoke to him (literally) Face to Face and changed his name to Israel?
The answer to that is God incased in flesh.
Who did Jacob wrestle? A man? Or God?
Vince,
If you believe that the Word is God (and later in that chapter it explains that the Word is Jesus), then how can you argue that? Jesus is merely making a distinction between the manifestations of God. Jesus was the physical manifestation of God. He was completely human, but completely God. How can that be? Just like the trinity, it's a mystery that we may never be able to understand.
Again Prophet you assume that first John 5:7 is talking about one in body, person or being. Knowing this could go on for ever just as discussions like this can.
Can you see that 1 john 5:7 could be interpreted as one in Unity, Purpose, goal - like all are one in accord to bare record of the Son being Jesus Christ?
Vince,
Please dont bring in JS. If you want to be credible, that's going to shoot yourself in the foot.
Jacob wrestled with a man in Genesis 32. When they were done wrestling, Jacob named the place Peniel because he had seen God face to face. If God is spirit....then how could Jacob wrestle with a man? And, as many believe, if that man was actually Jesus, then why would Jacob say that he saw God?
Prophet, I agree, Jesus is the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word is God, but you assume that John is saying that Jesus Christ is God the Father. Man's understanding, if true than it would contradict other parts of the bible, so your assumption can't be truth, because the bible can't contradict itself, or are you saying the bible is errant?
Que again apples and oranges, The spirit they feared is equal to a ghost or demon, the spirit that is housed in our bodies and that of Christ is what we are talking about. take as an example Christ shows himself to Mary but has not Assended to the Father and requests not to be touched (John 20:17)
Oh, and First John 5:7 says "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." I think that pretty much ends the discussion.
Vince
John 1. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word WAS God." So, yes, it does say that they are one.
Moses spoke with the LORD face to face -exodus 33:11
Paul said Jesus sat down on the right hand of the majesty on High - Heb 1:3
Stephen saw Christ on the right hand of God - Acts 7:55-56
John the baptist heard the voice of the Father - Matt 3:16-17
Joseph Smith saw and spoke with God the Father and Jesus Christ - JSH, D&C 131, & 76
John 4:24 saying that God is spirit is true too, I can say you are spirit, cause you are made up of a body with flesh and blood, and you are spirit. You are to let the spirit control the body and worship and serve God.
Jesus said in Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have."
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." THIS is the understanding and teaching of a man. This is not found in scripture anywhere.
But Vince:
Jhn 4:24 "God the Father [is] Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth."
Show me in scripture where it is written that God the Father is corporeal.
Prophet that doesn't make any sense nor is that found anywhere in the bible or holy scriptures.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Flesh, spirit, and soul.
All one, but separate.
Thus goes the enigma. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one person, but three manifestations of the same person.
You said it yourself
"Yes, God is one person - ONE TRUE GOD
Yes, Jesus is one person - God's ONLY begotten Son,
Yes, the Holy Ghost is one person"
Together they are the Godhead, separate beings, one in goal, unity and purpose.
Isn't it great to have the heavens opened to reveal the true and living God, that we don't need to rely on the understanding of man but can get the TRUTH from a living Prophet called of God in our day (just as in ancient days) to reveal and teach His truths
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
Most people skim over that scripture and think nothing of it. But they miss a deeper discovery of who Jesus is.
Yeah, see there's lots of little things that Jesus said and did, that would only be picked up by those who study the Word and are led by the Spirit.
precisely!
He is the Great I AM, and oh, how the Pharisee's blood must have boiled! They knew exactly what title it was that Jesus was laying claim to.
Q,
Yes. Sorry. I shouldn't get frustrated with ignorance.
But I find it intriguing that in John Chapter 8, towards the end, Jesus is talking the pharisees about Abraham. And He comments in verse 58 saying “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” I am? Didn't He mean "I was"? Or is it that He was using the title that God used when talking to Moses in Exodus 3 "And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
I think that the reason why the pharisees were so upset, wasn't necessarily that He was comparing Himself to God (although that was a rather sore point with them), but that He used the title that God gave Himself. And the pharisees, being intense scholars of the old testament scriptures, knew exactly what He was implying. THAT is what really torqued them off.
( yes, the analogy to man falls a little short of revealing the mystery of God because we are not identical to Him, but rather His likeness-similitude. And not only that, but we are in a fallen state - hence the occurence of death. So yes, the analogy does fall short of fully revealing God's glory)
RE: separate-ness
It's an amazing truth, Vince!
Yes, God is one person
Yes, Jesus is one person
Yes, the Holy Spirit is one person
Yet according to scripture there is only one true God. How is this so?
Patience Prophet -
We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers....
2Tim 4:2 "... correct, rebuke and encourage–with GREAT PATIENCE and careful instruction."
BoD:
My point is simple logic...
1. Jesus is God. Yes?
2. Yet Jesus refers to the Father in John 17:3 as "the only true God"
So what is Jesus implying here about his own godhood?
I know you don't think that Jesus is saying here that he isn't a true God and if not what is the alternative?
bigondrums,
Sorry I took so long to respond. I was going through all my Bibles and removing John 1, since it is not scriptural.
But you never did answer my question...are you a body? or a spirit? or a soul?
And as far as Revelations is considered. Thanks for letting me know that all that has happened already. I thought I was going to have to endure the tribulation, but apparently it's already happened. So, we're in the new earth and heaven now? I hope not. If we are, it sucks.
This is what the LORD [Jehovah], Israel's king, says,
their protector, the LORD who commands armies:
"I am the first and I am the last, there is no God [Elohim] but me." Isaiah 44:6
"You have been taught that the LORD [Jehovah] alone is God [Elohim] - there is no other besides him." Deuteronomy 4:35
What do these verses mean to you?
Your argument makes no sense to me. John 17:3 proves that they are separate because Jesus prays to the Father. I don't see how you're making your argument that they are one and the same. The Son is subject to the Father.
Even your quote in Genesis proves they conversed with each other.
If I may interject:
Que you make a good point, BUT unlike the Godhead, your body can not survive with out you spirit. It is the spirit that is everlasting, obviously your body is going to die, at which point your spirit seperates it's self from the body. Not knowing your defination of the soul but again I believe the soul is made up of the body and spirit together.
God the Father is independant from God the Son and Jesus is independant from the Father (see previous bible quotes). No one comes to the Father except through the Son.
BoD - re: your comment about 'OT Times" and idolatry -
How then do you explain the NT verses that I gave you?
Jhn 17:3 (Jesus praying to God the Father) "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY true God.."
1Cr 8:6 "... there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things.."
You as a human being consist of body, soul and spirit, yet no one would say you are "three". Why is this concept so difficult to grasp when used of the Godhead?
Even when you come to die, you are separated from your body, yet again no one would say that there is more than one of you.
Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... "
That was Jehovah speaking to a set of people in Old Testament times when idol worship was a huge problem. Jehovah is Jesus Christ, who we are subject to. To us, He is our God.
Not to be misunderstood, I believe that Jesus is our Saviour and Redeemer, and He was sent by God His Father to redeem mankind. How do you go against the bible when it clearly teaches the seperateness of the Godhead?
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.(John 20:17)
If the Father and the Son were numerically one, where would Jesus go?
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.(Acts 2:33)
If Father and Son and Holy Ghost were numerically one, how could Jesus be at the right hand of God? How would He be exalted? And why would He need to have received a promise of the Holy Ghost? Let's look at Jesus' own words:
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)
If the Father is the Son, then how could he have forsaken himself?
BoD: Consider the following:
(single examples given in order to "keep the forum uncluttered")
In Phil 1:2 the Father is called God
In Col 2:9 Jesus is called God
In Acts 5:3,4 the Holy Spirit is called God.
To the natural man's mind this would indicate 3 persons.
However,
Here are a few (again not all, for the sake of space)
statements in scripture that state there is only ONE God:
Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 55:5).
How many Gods exist? one, not three.
Revelations is just that: a revelation. He was shown things from the past, and things that will happen in the future. I disagree with you that the war in heaven in which satan was cast out happened in the past. I know that Revelations is a difficult book to understand, but the evidence that satan is present now, along with his dominions, seems strong to me. In fact I don't know many protestants that take a stand on the war in heaven as far as when it occurred. Most preachers I've talked to believe that is how satan got to be on earth (in the past).
What I am seeing is that we must not be using the same KJV. Are you missing the many, many scriptures that Christ refers to the Father? Or that they are manifested to prophets beside each other?
I believe that Jesus Christ was with the Father before the creation of the earth. I believe that Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament. I believe that Jehovah is Jesus Christ. When Jesus came to earth in the flesh He taught us about the Father as well as Himself. I believe we are subject to the divinity of Jesus Christ as He is the mediator between us and the Father. But just as He taught us, He is the Son. The Son is subject to the Father. And so are we. Does that clear up what I've been saying?
Revelations is a book of the future, not the past. Revelations clearly shows that Satan and his demons had access to heaven. And the war was to finally remove him from there. Again, if you disagree, please remove such scriptures from your Bible.
Non-believers who refuse to acknowledge the Truth kind of annoy me. But I have patience, because they do not have the Spirit of God in them. But when a Christian refuses to acknowlege the Truth, especially one so blantant and obvious, now THAT annoys me. Whether Satan is allowed in heaven or not, will not determine a person's salvation. Whether Jesus is God....well, that's pushing the line. But I'm not as daring as you. I would rather not push that line.
It's like this, bigondrums, are you a body? Or a spirit? Or a soul?
bigondrums,
Why do you refuse to hear the scriptures.
John 1 says "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word was God. Yes, it say that the Word was with God. And then apparently your Bible stops there. But the Word of God goes on to say that the Word was God. Jesus is God. The only way you can deny that is by cutting out the scriptures.
And so far I've given you scriptural proof of Satan being allowed in heaven. All you've offered is opinion. Unless you can give me scripture that proves that Satan is not allowed in heaven, the overwhelming evidence says otherwise.
Job1:6-7 says "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Does that, or does it not, say that Satan came with the sons of God into His presence? If you say it doesn't, please remove that scripture from your Bible.
bigondrums,
Sorry, I guess I mispoke. The man of perdition isn't Satan himself, but led by Satan. I was too wrapped up in my point that I typed that faster than I thought about it :)
lol - I have done the same thing; thanks for replying :)
Prophet,
"And that the temple will not be rebuilt, because it is an old covenant creation that was done away with, with the crucifixion of Christ."
Well said!
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one"
This phrase known as the "Shema" is the centerpiece of all morning and evening Jewish prayers. It is considered the most important prayer in Judaism, and its twice-daily recitation is a mitzvah (religious commandment). Jews believe that this confession is central to their monotheistic worship.
In Hebrew this is read:
"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad. "
The literal word meanings are roughly as follows:
Shema (A three part word) — listen, or hear and "act on"
Yisrael — Israel, in the sense of the people or congregation of Israel
Adonai — often translated as "Lord", it is used in place of the Tetragrammaton
Eloheinu — our God, the word "El" or "Elohei" signifying God (see also: Elohim), and the plural possessive determiner suffix "nu" or "einu" signifying "our"
Echad — the Hebrew word for "1" (the number)
"Echad" is the word used of a COMPOUND or collective unity.
whereas if a single oneness is being spoken of, the word "Yachad" would be used.
This same word can be seen in Gen. 2:24, "..the man and the woman shall become one (echad) flesh." there is no implication of only "oneness in purpose", there is an actual spiritual truth here. God sees the them as ONE.
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one"
Now tell me, understanding that when mankind refers to any single entity, it is assumed that that entity is a single entity, why would it be important to say in effect "Our God is one"? Wouldn't that be naturally assumed? So why the need to make the statement? Did the writer in Deuteronomy simply err and use the wrong word for "oneness"? No. He used the word that he was inspired to use: "Achad" - a compound unity.
Now if God is saying here of Himself that He is a compound unity, what do you suppose that he means by that? Shouldn't we consider it telling that this phrase was deemed important enough to be made the cornerstone of His chosen people's prayers?
Father, Son and Holy Sprit is one God.
Fifth Generation Mormon Comes TO Christ.
http://evidenceministries.org/mormons.php?viewarticle=45
John Chapter 1 is speaking of the Father and the Son and says they were together. I guess I'm just not seeing how you can misinterpret that one scripture and forget about all the others I brought up where they are clearly mentioned as seperate.
You aren't listening. I never agreed that Jesus and God are the same entity. They are one in purpose, but different identities. Yes Jesus existed before the world was created. I'm not sure what you missed there in my explanation.
The war in heaven was before the world was created. By Lucifer's opposition to the Father, he became evil and was thrust out of heaven. Satan does not reside in heaven now, nor do his dominions. I never said that Satan could not speak to Jesus, I said Satan can't be in the presence of the Father, because he is full of sin and sin cannot reside with the Father.
Online4Him,
Sorry, I guess I mispoke. The man of perdition isn't Satan himself, but led by Satan. I was too wrapped up in my point that I typed that faster than I thought about it :)
But you never did acknowledge that in John Chapter one, it clearly states that Jesus and God are the same person. You also have not addressed that Satan actually did come to God in the book of Job.
Job1:6-7 says "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
That is pretty self-explanatory. No argument there.
And then in Revelations (which is a book of things to come), it says in chapter 12: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Note the phrase "neither was their place found any more in heaven." Meaning that thy had, before that time, a place in heaven.
bigondrums,
Well, I'm glad that we finally agree that Jesus and God are one and the same. And that the temple will not be rebuilt, because it is an old covenant creation that was done away with, with the crucifixion of Christ.
bigondrums,
"The man of perdition is Satan from what I understand. The temple was destroyed, so if you don't think this happened already, shouldn't you be building a temple so this can happen and Jesus can return?"
Your interpretation of 2Thessalonians chapter 2 needs additional biblical support to substantiate your claims - Satan being the “man of perdition” and the “temple”. Care to elaborate? Satan is NOT the man of perdition as you claim and the temple spoken of in this chapter is the church; not a rebuilt Jewish Temple.