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Oct 30,2009, 4:07PM

Does religion lead to bad parenting?

The Case

A ten year old girl from Perth Australia named Tamar is diagnosed with advanced liver cancer. According to the hospital, she has a 50-60% chance of survival if she submits to a seven week course of chemotherapy and no chance of survival without it. The parents refuse the treatment for their daughter, opting instead for "natural" cures. As the weeks drag on the hospital becomes increasingly desperate and so appeals to the Supreme Court in Perth to intervene and force the treatment. The night before the case is to be heard, the mother flees with her daughter to El Salvador so that she can be treated for her cancer naturally, that is with herbal tea and mud wraps.

The rest of the story, told on an Australian news program (and available here: http://blip.tv/file/2707012/ [with thanks to Conversational Atheist who drew it to my attention]) then unfolds at an agonizing pace. The film crew follows the family to San Salvador where they are interviewed. It is clear that Tamar is growing worse by the day and is in great discomfort. Soon, doctors predict, her airway will become obstructed, thereby creating the sensation of suffocation. And we are filled with anger and disgust at her parents, wondering how they could let their child die for such foolish beliefs.

The story makes clear that this family is not only drawn to alternative medicine, but also holds a devout Christian faith. Both parents have a peace that also has something of the spirit of resignation about it. The mother says "We just trusted that the Lord will protect us." And the father adds: "I don't want to lose my daughter, but if it is God's decision, who am I to fight against it?" The grim situation is summarized by the reporter: ""Tamar's parents are risking everything on a miracle cure. As devout Christians they believe ultimately it is God who will decide her fate."

Analysis

Conversational atheist introduced this story with, it would seem, a certain frustration over religious beliefs and my defense of them. This is how he bluntly put it: "There is a girl dying of liver cancer, right now, because her parent's superstitions. The beliefs that RD is providing cover for have real consequences in the world."

The assumption here of course is that arguments I have offered in defense of the justification of religious belief apply here as well. Thus it is perfectly okay for the parents to forgo modern medicine and wrap the child in mud because the mother's belief that mud cures every ailment is perfectly justified for her.

Without having yet seen the video I responded as follows:

Like you I think that is a tragic story. It is a story that could be repeated with an atheist who believed that his quackery scientific theory would save his child instead of chemotherapy. I am not sure how you would establish, as you seem to, that a religious or theistic worldview simpliciter makes an individual more prone to such lamentable actions than a non-theistic or non-religious one.

This is an important point, if I do say so myself. Critics of Christianity often throw out such cases without explicitly arguing that Christianity or religion or theism makes people especially prone to such mistaken actions. But this can't be implied or assumed, it must be argued.

Certainly there is nothing about Christianity that would necessarily lead one to trust mud wraps over modern medicine. Moreover, parents subject their children to all sorts of abuse out of completely non-religious concerns. Note for instance that balloon guy in Colorado who subjected his family to untold grief due to his desire to be on television. Should we thus blame religion and reality television for poor parenting?

Let's approach the objection from another angle. Doesn't religion promote quietism, that is a do-nothing attitude? As the father says, "if it is God's decision, who am I to fight against it?" Maybe that is where the problem lies? God will heal her if he wants to so we need not try?

This is a mistaken analysis of the present case since the parents are not doing nothing, they're just doing the wrong thing. Thus, their Christian beliefs don't lead them to be inactive.

That said, it is true that some Christians have reasoned in a quietistic direction based on their understanding of providence. But it is crucial to note that this fatalistic attitude also has no intrinsic connection with religion, Christian or otherwise. For one thing it is rejected by most Christians who believe God works through modern medicine and expects us to use our common sense. For another thing, one could be a fatalist without being a theist at all. After all, "Que Sera Sera" ain't a hymn.

In sum, Tamar's case is terribly tragic and it seems to me that her parents' beliefs were completely unjustified; they were inexcusably incompetent to make the decisions they did. (For further evidence of this judgment, watch the story.)

But far from allowing us to put away this troubling case, this only clears the deck for us to consider the real difficult question: why does God allow children like ten year old Tamar to die of horrible illnesses to begin with?

Does religion lead to bad parenting?
The Case A ten year old girl from Perth Australia named Tamar is diagnosed with advanced liver cancer. According to the hospital, she has a 50-60% chance of survival if she submits to a seven week course of chemotherapy and no chance of survival without it. The parents refuse the treatment for their daughter, opting instead for "natural" cures. As the weeks drag on the hospital becomes increasing...
Most recent comments
1.November 04,2009, 12:04PM
RD - "With that in mind if you have an omniscient and omnibenevolent being who tells you to undertake a certain action, doesn't it follow trivially that you ought to follow the request?"

Sure. If you assume that God is a perfect moral being and that He really is communicating with the man, then there is nothing wrong with the man's logic. That would be trivially true no matter what the actual request is.
--AnAtheist.Net
2.November 04,2009, 1:31AM
AnAtheist.Net,

I'm not talking metaethics here but rather normative ethics. With that in mind if you have an omniscient and omnibenevolent being who tells you to undertake a certain action, doesn't it follow trivially that you ought to follow the request?
--RD Rauser
3.November 03,2009, 11:01PM
RD - "But if God did command the circumcision then presumably it was the right thing to do."

Should the "right thing to do" be defined as "whatever God commands?"
--AnAtheist.Net
4.November 03,2009, 10:16PM
P.S. I hope the point was clear. I don't believe God commanded that but if he did our assessment of the case would change.

I'll raise another great example in my next post...
--RD Rauser
5.November 03,2009, 10:15PM
AnAtheist.Net,

I agree that it is a good case. My cryptic point was this: in "They Live" there are aliens that walk among us but look just like us. A guy puts on glasses and can see who the humans are and who the aliens are. And so he starts blowing aliens away. We think he is crazy or evil or both but he is actually a good guy who knows a lot more than us.

When we assess the beliefs and actions of others and find them wanting, we do so because we believe they are wrong and their beliefs are false. But if God did command the circumcision then presumably it was the right thing to do.
--RD Rauser
6.November 03,2009, 5:00PM
RD - I see that you are being more cryptic than usual today! Actually, I mention the story because it seems to serve as another illustration for CA - albeit one without alternative medicine involved and where the religious explanation is far more clear.
--AnAtheist.Net
7.November 03,2009, 3:50PM
AnAtheist.Net,

An answer to your query is hidden in Rowdy Roddy Piper's cinematic debut "They Live".
--RD Rauser
8.November 03,2009, 2:31PM
How about forcefully circumcising your son because "the Holy Spirit pressed me to do it"? http://www.anatheist.net/2009/11/other-unkind-cuts/
--AnAtheist.Net
9.November 02,2009, 5:47PM
CA,

the same way you do it when people get their beliefs in other putative sources of belief like memory, intuition, sense perception, et cetera: you provide grounds that undercut or directly rebut the putative source of belief.

I'll say more in a new post because I'd like this discussion front and center. I'll take it up ASAP.
--RD Rauser
10.November 02,2009, 5:22PM
RD: 'the more important question is not "hmmm, can their beliefs be subjectively justified relative to their total plausibility structure?" but rather "HOW CAN I CHANGE THEIR MIND?!"'

Yes! Please tell me. How can I change the mind of a person who thinks he can gain real knowledge about external reality through a God-sense?

They clearly cannot. You do not have a special privileged way of gaining knowledge about external reality. If you come to believe that "God loves me" -- you are not actually gaining information from the real world, you are deluding yourself.

I would LOVE to find out how to argue that case. I would love it. So I ask the master: show me how it's done.

Show me exactly what you typed in all caps, "HOW CAN I CHANGE THEIR MIND?!"

This is precisely what I want to know.

How can I convince such a person that they have not gained real knowledge, that their beliefs do not reflect reality.

I asked you to demonstrate how to do such a thing with *any example you wanted* where a person 1. Believed something stupid, dangerous, whatever. Because 2. They came to believe that God wants them to believe it when 3. the justification they give is: "I came to know this by my God-sense just as clearly as I know that God loves me. Just as clearly as I know that it's a sunny day outside."

You can choose. I'll concede, I'm doing it entirely wrong. Show me the correct way to do it. I'll listen, take notes, I promise.

We line up perfectly -- we agree entirely on the question that should be asked -- How do you change their minds?

Please demonstrate it. Please show us all.
--ConverseAtheist
11.November 02,2009, 3:59PM
CA

There are so many misunderstandings (no doubt unintentional) in your analysis. I have never argued that any belief could be properly basic. But I did point out that a non-religious person could appeal to intuition and you seem to have passed over that.

In case you didn't notice, as I have been discussing the present range of cases, JWs, mud wrappers, secular intuitionist non-blood-transfusers and the like,I am less concerned with abstract, ivory tower debates over subjective and objective concepts of justification and rationality and much more concerned with saving a child's life.

But whether you like it or not, the fact is that not everybody in the world shares Converse Atheist's background set of beliefs. (Imagine that!) So when people are acting on their beliefs in a way that you believe to be dangerous or immoral but which is not relative to the set of beliefs they hold, the more important question is not "hmmm, can their beliefs be subjectively justified relative to their total plausibility structure?" but rather "HOW CAN I CHANGE THEIR MIND?!"
--RD Rauser
12.November 02,2009, 3:18PM
I was just making sure that your "properly basic religious belief" shield that you bring up in defense of religious ideas covers every possible belief as long as it is claimed to be "God-Sensed".

I didn't want to continue on with the case that your efforts provide explicit and direct cover for every single dangerous, stupid, superstitious and backward religious belief ever conceived by anyone, ever, unless you were given ample time to defend yourself.

Since it's a pretty disgusting charge, I wanted to be crystal clear before I made such a statement.

So, would you please demonstrate how to criticize dangerous superstitious religious beliefs that a person claims to come by way of "sensing that God wants them to believe those things"?

Or are all of these beliefs "justified properly basic beliefs" to which you are trying to give some kind of intellectual support?
--ConverseAtheist
13.November 02,2009, 3:02PM
ConverseAtheist,

A nontheist could argue the same thing by appealing to their immediate intuition. "On reflection it just seems to me that it is wrong to accept blood transfusions." So the problem has nothing in particular to do with whether or not one believes in the existence of a supernatural agency or is an adherent to religion versus being secular. And yet the way you pose questions implies to me that you see this as some special problem for theists or religious people. If that is correct then I wonder why?

Whether the person is religious or not, whether they appeal to an immediate divine or non-divine intuition, either way the best we can do is argue against the reliability of that belief with the objectve evidence available to us.
--RD Rauser
14.November 02,2009, 2:45PM
RD: "I already offered a response to one of CA's scenarios:"

No you didn't.

CA: "A person who comes to believe that God does not want him to get blood transfusions -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, and that it's sunny outside."

You said:

RD: "How you argue effectively depends on understanding something of the person's background set of beliefs. If the person is a JW then I would still use the method outlined above."

The scenario that I quoted has nothing to do with the guy being a JW. The guy believes that comes to believe that God doesn't want him to have blood transfusions -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him.

Not because he read a Watchtower pamphlet; not because a sketchy minister told him so -- because he realized it with his God-sense just like a person could come to sense that God loves him.

Let's say the guy says, "I have come to believe that God does not want me to have blood transfusions through my inner God sense. Also, I have come to believe that God loves me through my inner God sense. I came to both of these realizations in the same way, and they are both properly basic."

What does RD say in response to that guy?
--ConverseAtheist
15.November 02,2009, 1:25PM
beetle496,

I already offered a response to one of CA's scenarios:

"A person who comes to believe that God does not want him to get blood transfusions -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, and that it's sunny outside."

As I said, I would have to understand something of that person's other beliefs before I could argue against their belief about blood transfusions. For instance, if they also believed that all caucasian men are not to be trusted, I would presumably have to address that before mounting a critique of their views on blood transfusions.

To sum up, the lesson is this: beliefs never stand in isolation. The defeat of justification is always contextual to a background set of beliefs.
--RD Rauser
16.November 02,2009, 12:35PM
Two of us asked for an example that is not specific to JW. Rather than being defensive, could we have that please?

> I’m interested to hear … how you both would seek to persuade the JW through rational argument

I have nothing — which is why I am so keen to hear the not-specific-to-JW approach you would use to prevent “something stupid and bad”.
--beetle496
17.November 02,2009, 11:37AM
beetle496,

Attacking the source of the belief as I commended is an undercutting defeater and that is surely sufficient. If the only reason Mr. JW has to eschew the medical treatment that could save his child's life is because one specific authority that MR. JW holds in high esteem says don't do it, then you undermine the credibility of that authority. Once Mr. JW concedes that his single authority is without merit and thus that he has no reason any longer to reject potentially life saving treatment then he will presumably agree to have his child treated. If he still won't then he is blatantly irrational and immoral and there is no arguing with him.

While the notion of state intervention is a dicey one, I am all for the state intervening in this case and giving the child the needed blood transfusion. We don't have time to debate the merits of the Watchtower society. I'd argue a similar thing about other cases like female circumcision as well. But there are also many borderline cases where the harm of a given religious practice is much more negligible.

But beetle496 (and CA), I'm interested to hear, apart from the state intervention question, how you both would seek to persuade the JW through rational argument (or anybody else who refused blood transfusions on religious or other grounds for that matter)?
--RD Rauser
18.November 02,2009, 11:27AM
> What's wrong with the JW illustration?

I cannot speak for CA but I do not care for it because it confounds the question. Your reply is essentially non-responsive. You propose debunking the institution (which is not likely to be successful) rather attacking the properly basic beliefs directly.
--beetle496
19.November 02,2009, 10:47AM
CA,

What's wrong with the JW illustration? I mean if we're talking flavors of ice cream I'll accept without further argument your testimony that you don't like chocolate but mere likes aren't relevant in the present discussion.

So here's one of your examples: "A person who comes to believe that God does not want him to get blood transfusions -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, and that it's sunny outside."

How you argue effectively depends on understanding something of the person's background set of beliefs. If the person is a JW then I would still use the method outlined above. An atheist might argue differently by seeking to undermine the existence of God.

If the person held a different set of beliefs I'd obviously argue a different case relative to that set of beliefs.

But then isn't this obvious? What's the problem?
--RD Rauser
20.November 02,2009, 4:13AM
I don't like your JW substitution.

Give me an example of how to argue with a person who comes to believe *something stupid and bad* because he has a sense that God wants him to do *something stupid and bad*.

Possible examples: a man who comes to believe that God wants him to treat his daughter with mud instead of chemotherapy -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, oh, and that it's sunny outside.

A person who comes to believe that God does not want him to get blood transfusions -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, and that it's sunny outside.

A person who comes to believe that his daughter is possessed by demons and that God wants him to exorcise the demons in a physically harmful manner -- just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him, and that it's sunny outside.

A person who comes to believe that God wants him to beat up homosexuals just as clearly as he came to believe that God loves him and that God hates fags -- and that it's sunny outside.

But I'll leave it up to you -- pick one of the above, your own, or if you want, I have about a million more I could come up with.
--ConverseAtheist
21.November 01,2009, 8:39PM
CA,

We probably don't know enough about the guy's belief to draw any certain conclusions, but there is a clearer example readily at hand: Jehovah's Witnesses who believe the Bible forbids blood transfusions.

I begin with this: let's say that I'm a child and my mom is obviously much more knowledgeable and loving than I. Should I trust my mom when she asks me to do something unpleasant which she claims is for my greater good (e.g. standing five hours in line to get a flu shot)? Sure I should, even if it doesn't make sense to me.

Likewise, if there is a God who is omnibenevolent and omniscient and that God has forbidden blood transfusions then, even if it does not make sense to me why this is so, I still ought not engage in blood transfusions. This seems trivially true to me. Please let me know if you disagree.

So the conclusion is this: if I am to remove the JW's justification I will have to do so by providing defeaters for the truth of this claim. For instance, I could undermine this interpretation of the Bible or, more generally, the credibility of the Watchtower Society as a trustworthy authority on anything.

If I could get the person to reject the authority and thus the belief then I have won.

Let's say that I don't succeed that well, but I do get the person to the place of at least doubting the Watchtower's authority. Then I could offer a sort of Pascalian Wager: do you really want to wager your child's life on a belief that may well be false?
--RD Rauser
22.November 01,2009, 8:28PM
Ethan,

What percentage of Christians pray to the exclusion of seeking medical attention? You say "many"? What does that mean? What percentage are you talking about and where's your data from?

"people like you who keep saying that prayer "works" to heal the sick are contributing to idiots who treat their children ONLY through prayer"

Yeah and people who commend a glass of wine to take the edge off a difficult day contribute to alcoholics who thinks another beer can solve all the world's problems. Powerful line of reasoning there.
--RD Rauser
23.November 01,2009, 2:27PM
RD: "But for the sake of accuracy, I saw no evidence that the man held that belief. (If you still want me to address the justification for that belief I can.)"

Yes. I would love for you to explain how to argue against a harmful, false, superstitious religious belief. Please do.

As to whether the man holds as a religious belief that God wants him to treat his daughter w/ mud instead of chemotherapy -- I seriously think that he takes exception to chemotherapy on religious grounds, and that he would agree with that statement.

I guess if he thinks it's a scientific belief, your criticism makes sense -- criticize the science. I'm not sure he would answer in a fully consistent way. I could honestly easily imagine him answering the following questions like this: Do you believe that God wants you to treat Tamar w/ mud instead of chemo? Yes. Do you believe that treating Tamar w/ mud will work better than chemo? Yes. Do you believe that in general, people should be treated with mud instead of medicine? No.

"If he chooses to take Tamar at the end of it; praise god. If he chooses to save her, I praise him the same. ... Trust in God, there's proof there [ points at Bible ] , that's enough for me."

How do you argue with such logic? No seriously, how do you argue with such logic?
--ConverseAtheist
24.November 01,2009, 1:40PM
"Second, you could argue that while Christians don't use prayers to the exclusion of medicine"

Sorry, MANY DO.

And people like you who keep saying that prayer "works" to heal the sick are contributing to idiots who treat their children ONLY through prayer, because people like you keep telling them that it helps heal the sick.
--Ethan
25.November 01,2009, 9:11AM
Converseatheist,

I am going to stay focused for the moment on the case you raised rather than other hypotheticals. This is the belief you then ask me to defeat (held by the father):

(1) "that it's God's will to have his cancer ridden child be treated w/ mud wrappings instead of chemotherapy -- as clearly as he comes to believe that it is sunny outside."

But for the sake of accuracy, I saw no evidence that the man held that belief. (If you still want me to address the justification for that belief I can.)

Rather, he seemed to believe these two propositions:

(2) God is in control of all events and can allow my daughter to live if he so chooses.
(3) The best way to heal sickness is by using mud wraps.

Christians far and wide would hold (2), but I know nobody save this man and his wife who hold (3). Their belief in (3) is unjustified because it is goes against the science and the reasons they have for holding it (family tradition from an old book written by a "doctor") are not adequate to overturn that scientific consensus.

I hope the lack of justification of (3) for those folks is clear for you. Assuming that it is would you like to discuss the justification for (1) or (2)?
--RD Rauser
26.November 01,2009, 9:03AM
Crannog,

Excellent joke/illustration and interesting analysis. I think the disparity may arise between those who are tied to a formal institution versus those that are not. If a guy from the Kiwanis or Rotary club killed his family some people would make the inevitable (and superficial) connection between social identity and violent action . In a few cases like the Branch Davidians you get entire nutty communities which, though bearing no relation to the wider community, are also seen to taint it in the minds of some. Finally, we should not overlook the influence of Hollywood stereotypes in forming attitudes and there are few stereotypes as well used as fundamentalist Christian psycho (see "Carrie" and "Cape Fear" for a couple standard examples).
--RD Rauser
27.October 31,2009, 6:59PM
In this entry you, RD, wrote: "her parents' beliefs were completely unjustified" -- and I agreed entirely. Still do.

I asked, quite simply, about how you would argue against a person who came "to believe that it's God's will to have his cancer ridden child be treated w/ mud wrappings instead of chemotherapy -- as clearly as he comes to believe that it is sunny outside." -- Let's call this belief X.

Can you show that this man's belief in X is not properly basic? Can you demonstrate that X is wrong in any meaningful way?

From the beginning of our interactions, RD, you have been asking us atheists to jump through various hoops -- like, 'show that my religious beliefs are not properly basic'.

Fair enough, I said, just show me how to do that with an obviously wrong belief. No, you can't. Show me how to do this with the belief that you yourself called, "completely unjustified". You can't.

Is a man's belief in X properly basic?

If so, how dare you criticize it?

If not, demonstrate to the atheists how to argue against a harmful, false, superstitious religious belief that causes harm and mischief in the world.

We'll listen and take notes, I promise.
--ConverseAtheist
28.October 31,2009, 2:40PM
My son like to tell the story of the man sitting on the roof of his house as it floats down the Mississippi praying for God to save him. Along come a canoe, motor boat and helicopter, in that order, and he rejects each saying ‘No, God will save me.” Once his house comes apart and he drowns he lands at the gates of heaven demanding to know why God let him drown. God simply replies, “I sent you a canoe, motor boat and helicopter, what else did you want?”

As for why you don’t hear about the bad choices Atheists make when it comes to medicine … As I see it an atheist confronting death through a treatable illness has two choices: do nothing (accept their fate whatever it is) or get help from some other person (whether that person practices scientific based medicine or complementary medicine using natural (but not faith based) remedies (including herbal teas and mud wraps). For an atheist to make either decision is not newsworthy because it’s not controversial. A Christian (or person of another faith) has three options: the two listed above and invoking the assistance of their God. This is newsworthy only when the religious take extreme chances because it is controversial.

Furthermore, it would seem unlikely the Atheist would challenge the decision of the doctors because there is nothing at stake for them—certainly nothing that would make it necessary to risk jail or flee the State. For this reason, rightly or wrongly, a Christian is more likely to make the news and, from a non-Christian point of view, make the wrong decision.
--Crannog
29.October 31,2009, 11:58AM
sorceror,

Admittedly this is my fault since I'm the one who brought up Dawkins in another context. Rather than proceed with the debate here, I'll plop it into its own post asap.

In the meantime, you are to be commended for giving Dawkins' fallacious argument the best possible defense.
--RD Rauser
30.October 31,2009, 10:22AM
Rauser - There is a reason that no professional atheistic philosopher would use Dawkins' sophmoric argument: it leads to an infinite regress. Let's say you found Paley's watch in the woods. Could you infer that an intelligence had designed it? Of course not, because any mind that designed a watch would be more complex than the watch. So if you cannot infer design of the brain or universe, neither can you infer design of the watch. And that's absurd.

You have completely missed Dawkins' point - because his point is the infinite regress.

Ever read the directions on a bottle of shampoo? 1. Lather. 2. Rinse. 3. Repeat. If you followed those instructions literally, you'd never leave the shower. The 'algorithm' is nonterminating. You have to break out of the loop at some point; if you don't use your common sense, then eventually you'll be forced out of the loop by running out of shampoo.

Dawkins' point is that intelligence cannot be an ultimate explanation for complexity because it is nonterminating. If intelligence is the only possible ultimate explanation for complexity, then you're forced into an infinite regress. At some point you have to break out of the loop, and shift to a different kind of explanation. Evolution - variation with natural selection - is one such explanation, which handily explains reproducing living things but doesn't work so hot on watches, which don't reproduce themselves with occasional variations.

Note that religious people 'break out of the loop', too - e.g. by insisting that God is 'ontologically simple', or by insisting that God has no origination, or some such. Dawkins explicitly addresses and rejects ontological simplicity (e.g. on page 149 of my copy, where he discusses Swinburne). He implicitly addresses the notion of God's eternity in the section on multiverses. Now, he might not have done it using the terminology you prefer, but it's not clear to me you even correctly follow what Dawkins actually wrote.
--sorceror
31.October 31,2009, 10:08AM
ConverseAtheist,

"so, how do you demonstrate in an RD approved way that his religious beliefs are unjustified?"

Seeking counsel from wise people in your midst is a good place to start. Obviously that assumes you haven't surrounded yourself with a bunch of nuts, but if you have that is not Christianity's fault.

In most cases I would also say careful prayer and Bible study.

But let's say that all this fails. Friends admit that it is possible that God would do this, and prayer and Bible study only reaffirm for Tamar's dad his earlier convictions.

In that case I would say this: no belief filter is perfect. But the fact that the occasional erroneous belief, some of them dangerously erroneous, slips through is no argument per se against the belief filter generally.

Consider an analogy. A water filter screens out 99% of impurities. Is it a good filter? I'd say yes.

Would MORE than 99 out of 100 Christian parents opt for chemotherapy rather than a spurious treatment? Of course. There is no debate that this is an exceptional case.

Well then it follows that this is a reasonably good filter.

Now I return to an earlier question. How many non-religious parents would opt for mud wraps over chemotherapy? Thankfully MORE than 99 out of 100. So here too the various humanist, atheistic, otherwise secular belief filters also lead to generally good if not perfect beliefs.

But as I asked before so I ask again, what is your argument that secular belief filters are more effectual at this point than religious or specifically Christian ones?
--RD Rauser
32.October 31,2009, 10:00AM
Rauser - It is a story that could be repeated with an atheist who believed that his quackery scientific theory would save his child instead of chemotherapy.

People who are atheistic are not immune to dogma. Look at the Soviet Union and China - they rejected Darwinian evolution and went with Lysenkoism. The resulting famines when reality failed to match up with "worker's science" killed millions; possibly even the majority of the people who died under those regimes. (Google the Three Bitter Years, the Holodomor, Lysenkoism.)

But the kind of warped beliefs that lead to ignoring obvious illness in one's own child, and proven track records of cures, all seem to be related to religion. I haven't heard of an actual case of the hypothetical you propose. That might be due to sampling bias - fewer people are atheist than religious - but I don't think so.

Note, however, the key factor uniting both cases - an active willingness to ignore and discount science and evidence.

Now, all things being equal - which belief system is more likely to produce a rejection of science? I suggest it's the one that claims that science is radically incomplete and proposes explanations based on unknown - unknowable forces... but that's just me. (Though I could point to other examples; I'm not aware of any atheist who thinks the Earth is ~6,000 years old...)
--sorceror
33.October 31,2009, 9:56AM
Ethan,

I certainly agree with GarryM.

You begin with an unargued assertion: "Certainly there IS something about Christianity that would necessarily lead one to trust PRAYERS over modern medicine."

This is doubly false. It is false first because in point of fact Christians do not view this as an either/or. They see prayers often working through modern medicine. As I noted in the article, that was the case even in the story. The couple believed God would heal their daughter through the medical treatment they were applying. The only problem is that the medical procedure they were applying is bunk.

Second, you could argue that while Christians don't use prayers to the exclusion of medicine, they nonetheless should. Again that's hogwash. The Bible affirms medicine and natural remedies. Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for his upset stomach. Whether or not that is good advice, it was a natural remedy. And Luke, author of Luke/Acts, was a doctor for goodness sake.

As for your question, no I don't tell people prayer can heal them. I tell them God can heal them through prayer, through a doctor, or any other way he likes.

By the way, I never replied last week to your invocation of Dawkins' argument against God's existence (that is, that God must be more complex than the universe and thus is no explanation at all).

There is a reason that no professional atheistic philosopher would use Dawkins' sophmoric argument: it leads to an infinite regress. Let's say you found Paley's watch in the woods. Could you infer that an intelligence had designed it? Of course not, because any mind that designed a watch would be more complex than the watch. So if you cannot infer design of the brain or universe, neither can you infer design of the watch. And that's absurd.

Two other problems: the argument is ignorant of the necessity/contingency distinction. Unless you can argue that the universe is metaphysically necessary you have a problem. And finally, God has never been believed to be complex, as Dawkins avers. Theologians and philosophers define God, if he exists, as a metaphysical simple. Oh, one more point. Even if God is not a metaphysical simple, the God explanation could be the simplest one to explain all the data we have, as Richard Swinburne has argued.

Dawkins' book is very entertaining, but it is not serious philosophy of religion.
--RD Rauser
34.October 31,2009, 3:18AM
Ethan says "Certainly there IS something about Christianity that would necessarily lead one to trust PRAYERS over modern medicine.'

I absolutely couldn't disagree more. To trust in prayer to the absense of medicine is lunacy. Do I beleive in prayer - Yes. But never to the point that I would advise an anointing over medical care from a Doctor. I will also pray that God will guide the Doctor. But listen to the medical people. This isn't an either or question - it is both.

There is no excuse for the behavior of parents in this situation - and definitely not a valid biblical or religious reason.
--GarryM
35.October 30,2009, 10:38PM
So there could be a guy, let's call him Tamar's father, who comes to believe that it's God's will to have his cancer ridden child be treated w/ mud wrappings instead of chemotherapy -- as clearly as he comes to believe that it is sunny outside.

RD: "it seems to me that her parents' beliefs were completely unjustified"

We agree entirely -- so, how do you demonstrate in an RD approved way that his religious beliefs are unjustified?
--ConverseAtheist
36.October 30,2009, 6:35PM
"Certainly there is nothing about Christianity that would necessarily lead one to trust mud wraps over modern medicine."

Certainly there IS something about Christianity that would necessarily lead one to trust PRAYERS over modern medicine.

"Moreover, parents subject their children to all sorts of abuse out of completely non-religious concerns."

Red herring.

There are parents who attempt to treat their seriously ill children entirely using religious rituals. There are a large number of members of these religious continually telling people that their religious rituals can actually cure illnesses. I see such people as contributing to such needless deaths.

Here are just a few examples:
http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/victims.htm

Randal, do you tell people that prayer can cure illness?
--Ethan
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