'However there are rules that must apply that we are to live by and their fore this world that doesn't like rules has a tendency to call christians names because we believe in following the rules laid down in the holy scriptures.' I know where you are coming from. I spent many many years trying to play the old 'love the sinner, hate the sin' role. I don't think �...more

'However there are rules that must apply that we are to live by and their fore this world that doesn't like rules has a tendency to call christians names because we believe in following the rules laid down in the holy scriptures.'

I know where you are coming from. I spent many many years trying to play the old 'love the sinner, hate the sin' role. I don't think 'the world' would have much motivation to call names if so many of the prominent Christians weren't so busy trying to enforce Biblical rules on those who don't claim to be Christians. The gay marriage issue is just one example of this.less

'I think sacred texts have great value if they are understood correctly.' Absolutely agree. It is when there is the NEED to take them literally that we run into trouble, as logic and truth tend to get thrown out the window in order to do so. But it's still hard for me to understand how a sacred text can be clearly disproven by natural facts and still be held as sacred. Perhaps th...more

'I think sacred texts have great value if they are understood correctly.'

Absolutely agree. It is when there is the NEED to take them literally that we run into trouble, as logic and truth tend to get thrown out the window in order to do so. But it's still hard for me to understand how a sacred text can be clearly disproven by natural facts and still be held as sacred. Perhaps that is something I will have to be content not to understand.less

'Time saving tip for fundamentalist responders- Copy and paste the following: You're right about one thing, Hohnson. You do have bizarre beliefs.' Hilarious! I would tend to agree with you on the OT vs NT topic, as I think that the Jesus of the gospels has much to teach us in his humanity toward others. That said, I see the gospels too as just stories, which have clearly been ...more

'Time saving tip for fundamentalist responders- Copy and paste the following:

You're right about one thing, Hohnson. You do have bizarre beliefs.'

Hilarious! I would tend to agree with you on the OT vs NT topic, as I think that the Jesus of the gospels has much to teach us in his humanity toward others. That said, I see the gospels too as just stories, which have clearly been embellished by the writers for desired effect. None of the gospels were written until 60-100 years after Jesus' death and likely weren't by contemporaries. The stories of the birth are rife with pagan symbolism of the time and depending on the intended readers and politics of when the later ones were written, it is clear that much in the way of literary latitude was taken. As such, I see them much in the same way I see the creation myths from the OT: good stories with literary (and some) historical value, but certainly not authoritative enough to commit one's life to. Just my personal opinion though and one that is likely not shared by many on this site, which is fine.less

Homosexual Man I have read quite a bit on the connections between the Enuma Elish and the Genesis creation story. It would appear that the latter was based on the former, particularly when you consider that the Enuma Elish was believed to have been recorded several centuries prior and given the dominence of the Babylonians over the Isrealites at the time. It is for such reasons, among other...more

Homosexual Man

I have read quite a bit on the connections between the Enuma Elish and the Genesis creation story. It would appear that the latter was based on the former, particularly when you consider that the Enuma Elish was believed to have been recorded several centuries prior and given the dominence of the Babylonians over the Isrealites at the time.

It is for such reasons, among others, that I see the Bible has a historical book and not a sacred one. Full disclosure: I asked the question because when I could no longer see the Bible as a sacred text, to believe in the God who supposedly inspired it became impossible...so, I am always curious to hear from those who have gone through the first step of skepticism but who haven't ended up an atheist like me.less

BRIT72 Perhaps I wasn't a Christian, but I certainly believed I was, much as I am sure you believe yourself to be now. Since answers are simple, I am looking forward to getting a couple: explain how the earth and days (morning and night) existed before the creation of the sun. Explain how if you do the math back through the genealogies you get an earth that was 'created' about...more

BRIT72

Perhaps I wasn't a Christian, but I certainly believed I was, much as I am sure you believe yourself to be now.

Since answers are simple, I am looking forward to getting a couple: explain how the earth and days (morning and night) existed before the creation of the sun. Explain how if you do the math back through the genealogies you get an earth that was 'created' about 6000 years ago even though the geological record, radiometric testing, sediment layers in Lake Baikal, polar ice cap probes and countless other tests show that the earth has been around for millions of years.

Thank you.less

Homoousia Welcome to CP. Unfortunately, that is the way that some of the more zealot-like posters role here. If your comment doesn't fit neatly within their narrow dogma, you get flagged. Fortunatly, CP resolved the problem by allowing others to read flagged posts. I saw yours and will tell you that I have been in several discussions here about supposed deathbed conversions, particularl...more

Homoousia

Welcome to CP. Unfortunately, that is the way that some of the more zealot-like posters role here. If your comment doesn't fit neatly within their narrow dogma, you get flagged. Fortunatly, CP resolved the problem by allowing others to read flagged posts.

I saw yours and will tell you that I have been in several discussions here about supposed deathbed conversions, particularly that of Darwin. Some still believe in the urban legend that he converted and renounced his work on his deathbed despite the fact that his daughter (who was at is side) publically refuted this claim. Oh, and one small detail: she published it back in the 1920s!!! It seems there are are no lengths that some won't go to to close their eyes and ears to facts when believing in them would, in their minds anyway, result in the eternal barbeque.less

Hohnson Good, thoughtful and informative post. I am always curious though when someone dismisses the Genesis creation story as a myth but continues to believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus, because while many mainline denominations put the term 'not to be taken literally' on the portions of the Bible that can no longer be, in an effort to be able to hang onto their faith and not ign...more

Hohnson

Good, thoughtful and informative post. I am always curious though when someone dismisses the Genesis creation story as a myth but continues to believe in the God of Abraham and Jesus, because while many mainline denominations put the term 'not to be taken literally' on the portions of the Bible that can no longer be, in an effort to be able to hang onto their faith and not ignore scientific facts, it is hard to believe that when those stories were written down the authors meant them to be figurative. And if that is the case, it would seem that they were simply wrong about things, which, for me, removes all credibility that the scriptures may have once appeared to have.

So I guess I am curious to know how you have maintained your faith in a god whose supposed 'inspired' word is clearly errant.less

'It's all very worrying, the way people are getting over ''stars'' I totally agree. I suppose it is inevitable to a certain extent as the free flow of information means that stars are now on a world-scale, but I guess we take the good with the bad when it comes to the availability of information. What I don't believe is altogether true is that people like MJ ...more

'It's all very worrying, the way people are getting over ''stars''

I totally agree. I suppose it is inevitable to a certain extent as the free flow of information means that stars are now on a world-scale, but I guess we take the good with the bad when it comes to the availability of information. What I don't believe is altogether true is that people like MJ are leading people away from Christianity. I would argue that many are leaving the faith because that same availability of information has exposed the Bible, particularly the OT and the story of origins, revealing many unreconcilable holes. At least that was my particular experience.less

Slacker Thanks for the response. To be fair, I was a bit angry when I wrote the original post too so some of the comments I made were likely generalizations that reflected some of that anger. The comment about being in insulated communities was from personal experience of when I belonged to one such community, which may not be representative. But I still stand by what I said, particularly that ...more

Slacker

Thanks for the response. To be fair, I was a bit angry when I wrote the original post too so some of the comments I made were likely generalizations that reflected some of that anger. The comment about being in insulated communities was from personal experience of when I belonged to one such community, which may not be representative. But I still stand by what I said, particularly that each of us, regardless of our faith (or lack thereof in my case), is capable of being gracious and showing compassion and empathy toward other human beings...and the only requirement they must meet to deserve that is being a fellow human being.less

Slacker I'm not saying you should change your beliefs. I think that much of what MJ did toward the end of his career was strange and I couldn't understand it. To be honest, I'm not even a fan...never bought any of his albums (and I am old enough to remember all of them). My point was that articles like this are frustrating, because instead of being gracious and just acknowledgin...more

Slacker

I'm not saying you should change your beliefs. I think that much of what MJ did toward the end of his career was strange and I couldn't understand it. To be honest, I'm not even a fan...never bought any of his albums (and I am old enough to remember all of them). My point was that articles like this are frustrating, because instead of being gracious and just acknowledging the loss, it takes the opportunity to snub those who are mourning only to do a little personal backpatting, touting how it is actually US that gets persecuted.less

throughitall Do you actually have anything to say in response or are you content to just try to belittle me without knowing anything about me?

BRIT72 Like I said in the previous post, my point was that people can be deserving of our empathy even if they don't see and do things just like we do. I am not Bah'ai, but one of my friends is. If he were to die, I definitely wouldn't be using the opportunity to talk about all the spiritual beliefs he has that I don't agree with or, worse yet, doling out my empathy as a fun...more

BRIT72

Like I said in the previous post, my point was that people can be deserving of our empathy even if they don't see and do things just like we do. I am not Bah'ai, but one of my friends is. If he were to die, I definitely wouldn't be using the opportunity to talk about all the spiritual beliefs he has that I don't agree with or, worse yet, doling out my empathy as a function of how good of a Christian he was (even though he never claimed to be one). I would use the opportunity to talk about what a good friend he was, how he would drop anything he was doing when I needed help, and how he was one of the most intelligent and thoughtful people I ever had the pleasure to know.

People shouldn't have to meet a belief requirement to deserve our love/compassion/empathy. All people have met that requirement by being a fellow human being.less

wrhalver Thanks for the response. The main point that I was making in my original post was that it is possible show compassion for other people regardless of whether or not they are exactly like you, share the same faith, etc. Your response was to judge whether or not he was a good Christian. What difference does that make? So if MJ wasn't a Christian you're not allowed to say nice t...more

wrhalver

Thanks for the response. The main point that I was making in my original post was that it is possible show compassion for other people regardless of whether or not they are exactly like you, share the same faith, etc. Your response was to judge whether or not he was a good Christian. What difference does that make? So if MJ wasn't a Christian you're not allowed to say nice things about him and his talent or admit that he will be missed? If he doesn't believe just like you do he is not deserving of the outpouring of compassion that his death brought?

To be honest, wrhalver, my questions were more statements than they were questions. Statements of how the obsession with an almost pharisaical piety that many evangelicals have keeps them from being able to stop judging others long enough to just show some love and respect to someone who maybe doesn't believe the same way. Unfortunately, I think my statement is more right than wrong...in your case, you not only exemplify it but also feel justified.less

Mathletes The problem with teaching that evolution is a 'theory', in the non-scientific definition of the word, is that it gives the impression that it is something that hasn't been adequately tested. If you read the publications put out by NAS, they clear this up explicitly. It states that in the scientific community, the theory of evolution has been tested so extensively and fo...more

Mathletes

The problem with teaching that evolution is a 'theory', in the non-scientific definition of the word, is that it gives the impression that it is something that hasn't been adequately tested. If you read the publications put out by NAS, they clear this up explicitly. It states that in the scientific community, the theory of evolution has been tested so extensively and found to be true over the course of 150 years, that it is viewed as fact, much in the way that the 'theory' of gravity is. Sure, we are advancing our knowledge of the theory and further testing its limits, but it has long since left the realm of theory that runs the risk of being debunked.

The two gaps you bring up started as attempts by Creationists to poke a hole in the theory (as if that would legitimize the scientific validity of creation). They have, and particularly the idea of irreducible complexity, been analyzed and discarded by the community. The fact that a handful of scientists, who not so coincidentally nearly all adhere to the same religious dogma, are dissenters doesn't negate the fact that the overwhelming conclusions backed by observations on the other side. Teaching the views of the religiously-biased scientists who perhaps represent less than 1-2% of the entire scientific community makes no sense.

Finally, we are talking about elementary and high school-level science classes here. You suggest putting opposing views out there for the students to hash out and come up with their conclusion. This is impossible. They are being taught the building blocks and, therefore, would not have the tools to make these decisions. It is precisely at this point that they must be given the basic facts. And the most highly respected groups of scientists (the NAS, among others) are not the least bit ambiguous about what these basic facts are...and, more importantly, what they are not: Biblical ideas of creation.less

Blacksho Nice spin, but unfortunately it doesn't agree with what your Bible tells you. Go back and read in Exodus, chapter 21, where it tells the Isrealites that they may PURCHASE foreign slaves (not fellow Jewish ones, because, not surprisingly, according to the Torah that would be unethical). Not only that, if a male slave were to be married and have children, in the seventh year he woul...more

Blacksho

Nice spin, but unfortunately it doesn't agree with what your Bible tells you. Go back and read in Exodus, chapter 21, where it tells the Isrealites that they may PURCHASE foreign slaves (not fellow Jewish ones, because, not surprisingly, according to the Torah that would be unethical). Not only that, if a male slave were to be married and have children, in the seventh year he would be freed but the wife and kids were still property of the master. He, of course, could choose to become a lifelong slave at that point out of devotion to his master (or was it because he didn't want to leave his wife and kids...can't remember).

These rules were not only seen as ethical by the 'People of God' at the time, they were part of God's supposed inspired law. Don't try to pull the wool over my eyes about what the Bible says. I have studied it thoroughly. And there is absolutely no way for someone who lives in our country in this day and age to reconcile Exodus 21 with our current set of ethics. Hence, they must be relative (yours included).less

Why is it so hard for Christians to show just a bit of compassion for a fellow human being? Why is it that you can't just say, 'no, I didn't agree with everything he did...yes, he did lead a tormented life on many levels...but aside from all of that, he was a talented performer and he and his talents will be missed.' Is that a sin or something? Why must you feel it necessary to...more

Why is it so hard for Christians to show just a bit of compassion for a fellow human being? Why is it that you can't just say, 'no, I didn't agree with everything he did...yes, he did lead a tormented life on many levels...but aside from all of that, he was a talented performer and he and his talents will be missed.' Is that a sin or something? Why must you feel it necessary to snort at the suffering of the ones who are, as Diana so lovingly labeled and dehumanized as, 'the unsaved world', only to try to do a bit of one-upsmanship on the topic of suffering?

Seriously. If you would step out of your insulated evangelical colonies and start rubbing shoulders or even (gasp!) make friends with some of the people of the (double gasp!) WORLD, you may see that we are all the same...we all suffer...and many are persecuted for what they believe...not just Christians.less

Blacksho Ethics ARE relative whether you admit to it or not. Even those like you who believe in the 'Lawgiver' show this in practice. The Bible says nothing whatsoever against keeping slaves, only admonishing those who are to know their place and to be obedient. I know for a fact (or at least desperately hope) that you believe that slavery is unethical, but that isn't something y...more

Blacksho

Ethics ARE relative whether you admit to it or not. Even those like you who believe in the 'Lawgiver' show this in practice. The Bible says nothing whatsoever against keeping slaves, only admonishing those who are to know their place and to be obedient. I know for a fact (or at least desperately hope) that you believe that slavery is unethical, but that isn't something you would have learned from scripture, as it wasn't something that was seen as unethical in Biblical times.less

Believer JJ is right. Credentials for those in any academic field truly are based more upon peer-reviewed research and publications than anything else. Where one got his/her degree is merely a starting point; where one ends up teaching/getting tenure and what he/she accomplishes in terms of advancing new thought trumps this over time. All you have to do is go to a good university and see how ...more

Believer

JJ is right. Credentials for those in any academic field truly are based more upon peer-reviewed research and publications than anything else. Where one got his/her degree is merely a starting point; where one ends up teaching/getting tenure and what he/she accomplishes in terms of advancing new thought trumps this over time. All you have to do is go to a good university and see how much effort the professors put into their research (at times to the detriment of teaching in the classroom) to see where the real importance lies.less

Mathletes I can understand where you are coming from with the 'catch-22' as the science community overwhelmingly approves of evolutionary theory and naturally will not be all too receptive of differing theories...but that isn't to say that they wouldn't be if there were to be presented an credible, testable, falsifiable alternative theory. This is where the IDers truly l...more

Mathletes

I can understand where you are coming from with the 'catch-22' as the science community overwhelmingly approves of evolutionary theory and naturally will not be all too receptive of differing theories...but that isn't to say that they wouldn't be if there were to be presented an credible, testable, falsifiable alternative theory.

This is where the IDers truly lose their credibility. So far, they have only shown their ability to try to poke holes in existing theory without offering anything in its place aside from doing what the church has done for centuries: fill the gap with 'God'.

Fighting for putting creationism alongside evolutionary theory in the classroom is based entirely on trying to find one gap in existing theory, thereby faulting it and making a non-credible alternative somehow credible. Would I be at all credible if I were to use the same argument of not believing in evolutionary theory to promote that the Enuma Elish be taught along side evolution in science classes? If your answer is no, why would I be any less credible than the lobbying creationists are?less

Hawk Sorry. Been away for a while. Once again, you have given me a link to the Discovery Institute in an effort to somehow prove to me the legitimacy of the work done by...the Discovery Institute, which is akin to one putting his/her own name down as a reference on a CV. You also question my ability to state that its views aren't respected by other scientist (presumably because I am ...more

Hawk

Sorry. Been away for a while. Once again, you have given me a link to the Discovery Institute in an effort to somehow prove to me the legitimacy of the work done by...the Discovery Institute, which is akin to one putting his/her own name down as a reference on a CV.

You also question my ability to state that its views aren't respected by other scientist (presumably because I am not a scientist myself). I had already stated earlier that, because I am not a scientist, I turn to those who are to learn about what they have learned. The NAS, as the top and most lauded group of scientist in our country, would definitely be the best resource; and the NAS is the one (along with the U.S. Supreme Court) that discredits your conclusions and, more importantly, those at the Discovery Institute who are your source of information. I had already stated this and given you a link to their reports. I agree that I would not have the qualifications to discredit the conclusions of those you cite. But NAS does...and they do explicitly.

But since we aren't scientists, let's keep it simple. I will ask you, for the third time, how old is the earth based on the research you have read and studied?less