"They only use this site to promote their sin without shame, to blaspheme God and spew hate at bible believing Christians" Spew hate? LOL.. Have I? If I have indeed, a thousand apologies, for I intend no hatred in my messages. "Really, one only needs to have an equally yoked and God blessed marriage to know the depths of God's design for marriage...incredible sex!" ...more

"They only use this site to promote their sin without shame, to blaspheme God and spew hate at bible believing Christians"

Spew hate? LOL.. Have I? If I have indeed, a thousand apologies, for I intend no hatred in my messages.

"Really, one only needs to have an equally yoked and God blessed marriage to know the depths of God's design for marriage...incredible sex!"

This really amuses me. You could interpret those as sex?! Hahaha.. It sounded more like poetry to me. And yet you choose not to interpret "homosexuals" as worded by the bible and take them for its literal meaning. Why not take "drops of the night" literally as well?less

"It doesn't matter who this man prays FOR but WHO he PRAYS TO." Absolutely horrifying! If one day I would have to confront such a God. I'd ask him: "So if two men pray for the same safety of their family and friends, with the same purity of heart, but one a Christian who believes in the bible, the other a Muslim who believes in the Quran, one shall go to Heaven, the oth...more

"It doesn't matter who this man prays FOR but WHO he PRAYS TO."

Absolutely horrifying! If one day I would have to confront such a God. I'd ask him: "So if two men pray for the same safety of their family and friends, with the same purity of heart, but one a Christian who believes in the bible, the other a Muslim who believes in the Quran, one shall go to Heaven, the other Hell?"

If such a God exists, then I am no longer afraid. For again, I rather dwell in hell with the peace of mind than to be in Heaven, suffering from the torment of my conscience. But then again, my faith tells me that such a God does not. For God so love the world.less

Daniel, "First, I haven't seen any Bible verses that support sex between two men or two women. I have posted the greek words and the definitions on many verses which clearly mean sex between two men or two women is wrong." I absolutely agree with you on that point. And if you take some time to read what I have written, you'd understand why. Now, I would like to visit ...more

Daniel,

"First, I haven't seen any Bible verses that support sex between two men or two women. I have posted the greek words and the definitions on many verses which clearly mean sex between two men or two women is wrong."

I absolutely agree with you on that point. And if you take some time to read what I have written, you'd understand why.

Now, I would like to visit the notion of marriage. What is marriage? A paper from the civil court? A ceremony in the church? Or an emotional bond between two people where both pledges their heart to each other?

Do you think God would sanctify a marriage between me and a women when I am a homosexual and I am not emotionally attracted to her as one would be to one's partner? Do you think God would sanctify a marriage between a man and a woman where the woman is marrying solely for the riches of the man?

Honestly, I don't need the church's rituals to sanctify my marriage, all I need is my partner and God.

Now I would like to revisit fornication. If marriage is defined as the emotional commitment between two people, then it would be consistent that fornication is a sin since God doesn't encourage lustful desires because they often lead us to "unhappy" results.less

"Open mindedness is what causes us to follow after false prophets." On the contrary, narrow-minded people are more likely to go astray in my opinion. Open-minded people, to me, are those who consider a nation and think for themselves if it's right or wrong. Narrow-minded people are those who refuse to re-evaluate their ideologies to see if they are right or wrong. I am fa...more

"Open mindedness is what causes us to follow after false prophets."

On the contrary, narrow-minded people are more likely to go astray in my opinion.

Open-minded people, to me, are those who consider a nation and think for themselves if it's right or wrong. Narrow-minded people are those who refuse to re-evaluate their ideologies to see if they are right or wrong.

I am fairly narrow-minded I believe. Other than the period where I admitted to God that I have been wrong in rejecting Him just because I was told that He rejects all homosexuals, I've never had any experience where I had to re-evaluate any significant ideologies of mine.

But again and again, Prophet, the scripture is interpreted by us, no matter how much you would want to deny it, we interpret the scripture - you and I. Study the history of the catholic church and you'd see how often they change their interpretation of the scripture. There is nothing wrong with interpreting the scripture. You just interpret it with the mindset that homosexuality is wrong. But on what values the mindset is based on is the thing that should be questioned.less

"So what do you call someone who does not believe that the Scriptures are Gods inspired Word? I think the bible calls them unbelievers . . ." God's children, I would call them. The bible is not the only way to establish a relationship with God you know? Other than holy books such as the bible, the quran, the torah, etc, human beings can also establish their relationship with God ...more

"So what do you call someone who does not believe that the Scriptures are Gods inspired Word? I think the bible calls them unbelievers . . ."

God's children, I would call them. The bible is not the only way to establish a relationship with God you know? Other than holy books such as the bible, the quran, the torah, etc, human beings can also establish their relationship with God simply by listening to their conscience and learning from the experiences that God has arranged for them to encounter.

Is it logical for an almighty God to produce such limited means to convey his values? What about people who can't read? People can't possibly worry about religion because they have to worry everyday about food, shelter and survival?

He has his miraculous ways.less

Mgt, "Gosh, Bryan, what century DO you live in?" The century of love! HAHAHA. But no, I do indulge in sensual pleasure regrettably. Though I made a promise awhile ago not to engage in anal sex till I get married and I hope that I can keep that promise. :P

Believer, What God condemns is sexual lust that has no foundation of love. And back in the biblical times, this was occuring very often among "men rapers". Which is why in the bible, the condemnation for homosexual, put in context, is more likely to mean men who just have sex with men for lust and even shame (yeap they sodomized men to shame them). Which is why in Sodom and Gemorrah t...more

Believer,

What God condemns is sexual lust that has no foundation of love. And back in the biblical times, this was occuring very often among "men rapers". Which is why in the bible, the condemnation for homosexual, put in context, is more likely to mean men who just have sex with men for lust and even shame (yeap they sodomized men to shame them). Which is why in Sodom and Gemorrah they depicted the men saying: "Send out those Angels, and let us rape them." That is not homosexuality in which we see today.

What happened throughout the years is that, men, who dominated the church, imbued their notion of "gender role" and "masculinity" in their interpretation and hence interpreted what the bible meant to be for "male rapers" to be "all kinds of homosexuals". The very same thing happened to females. They actually got it worse than we do. And hence the females instigated the feminist movement with the courage given by God, I suppose. And now, perhaps it's time for us to send out the message that we have faith that God has nothing against homosexuals too!less

Believer, So you're saying that if homosexuals all don't have sex, and kiss each other on the cheeks to express love, we are fine? So it's fine for men to love men then? But Believer, did you not know that God spoke against all kinds of non-procreational sex? So do you admit that if homosexuals stop having sex with each other, heterosexual should stop having non-procreational ...more

Believer,

So you're saying that if homosexuals all don't have sex, and kiss each other on the cheeks to express love, we are fine? So it's fine for men to love men then?

But Believer, did you not know that God spoke against all kinds of non-procreational sex? So do you admit that if homosexuals stop having sex with each other, heterosexual should stop having non-procreational sex as well?less

Online, So what about the countless biblical figures who married more than one wive?

Online, Premise 1: This premise answered your question on why the bible did not talk about same sex marriage - because no such thing existed during the biblical times. "The fact the scripture ONLY speaks of marriage being between one man and one woman refutes your argument." Actually scripture also talked about one man and many wives. But obviously most of you simply like to pick vers...more

Online,

Premise 1: This premise answered your question on why the bible did not talk about same sex marriage - because no such thing existed during the biblical times. "The fact the scripture ONLY speaks of marriage being between one man and one woman refutes your argument." Actually scripture also talked about one man and many wives. But obviously most of you simply like to pick verses. But it's also because these relationships were the ones that are common during the biblical times. If the bible were written today, obviously we won't have marriage between a man and an alien, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong down the road.

Premise 2: "Romans 1 speaks of men with men as an ERROR" You read that phrase seeing it as men having relationships with men. I read the phrase and I see that it's talking about men having sex with men. In a way, the relationship I share with my bf is just like the relationship Jonathan had with David. It's just that David and Jonathan did not have sensual non-procreation sex - which again is spoken against for any kind of relationship.

Argument 1: I know you would disagree, many would. But are the premises that resulted in the conclusion wrong? Tell me which premise you disagree with. Do you not agree that we should not be the ones picking the phrases to adopt and to abandon? Do you not agree that if the bible were taken literally, one has to pick phrases?

Online,

The truth is not really that elusive, hard-to-reach, or anything, it's just hard to understand. The narrow road right? (The favourite saying of many of the posters here). It's hard to go our instinct of greed and our idea of gender roles for example. But when one day, one of your best friends tell you that they are homosexuals, I hoep that your conscience would tell you that there is nothing wrong with that. And that conscience, that voice of God, I hope, would trumph all of our instincts.less

"This death can and will take on many forms; death in your relationships, physical death, mental health death, death to your intellectual abilities, financal death, moral death (depravity), death in your relationship with God. The list goes on. " Death in your relationships. I am actually having very healthy relationships with my parents and friends. As for love, I am only 18, and hav...more

"This death can and will take on many forms; death in your relationships, physical death, mental health death, death to your intellectual abilities, financal death, moral death (depravity), death in your relationship with God. The list goes on. "

Death in your relationships. I am actually having very healthy relationships with my parents and friends. As for love, I am only 18, and have yet to settle down. I guess I'd have to be patient on that one.

"physical death" Everybody dies. Death is not a punishment from God.... In fact, there was a period in my life where I could not bring myself together due to the conflict between the religious views I used to have and my personal views, and hence attempted suicide, and was miraculously saved twice. So yeah.. apparently God did not want me to die.

"mental health death" That you might be right. In trying to understand God's way, I perpetually question Him and ask for his guidance in my wisdom. And it is really a lot more mentally strenuous than just taking the bible for its face value and end up following but not understanding. And such following, to me is dangerous because since you do not understand why you follow, you could be mislead.

"death to your intellectual abilities." Nobody is stupid. God created everybody with their unique abilities. There is no such thing as a death to our God-given intellect.

"financal death" First of all, do you see a correlation between homosexuality and poverty? Perhaps then, homosexuality is not a sin? But anyway, poverty is again, not a punishment by God. And sometimse it might even be a blessing. "It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, than a camel to enter the eye of a needle."

moral death. I would not call myself "all good", because obviously I err from time to time. The very same people who preach this "morality" end up instigating crusades, ethnic cleansing, and so much more. To me, to be moral means to be able to reconcile with my conscience and integrity. And by persecuting homosexuals or women, I would not find a peace of mind and would indeed end up morally depraved.

"death in your relationship with God" God doesn't only love the christians my friend. EVERYBODY has a relationship with God. It's not as exclusive as you think.less

"A female who wants to take on the role that God ordained for the man to do is a female whose heart is not right with God." What makes you think that God has a predefined role for males and females? The bible?! Again you must be picking your own verses here. Does it mean that since there were no biblical verses of females receiving education, no females now are entitled to education? ...more

"A female who wants to take on the role that God ordained for the man to do is a female whose heart is not right with God."

What makes you think that God has a predefined role for males and females? The bible?! Again you must be picking your own verses here. Does it mean that since there were no biblical verses of females receiving education, no females now are entitled to education? Does it mean that in the bible, females only help their husbands in their husband's traits, females cannot have their own career today?

"Those kind of relationships didn't come without a price"
So what makes you think that your relationship is the right one? In the bible, polygamous relationships and incestuous relationships were not consistently condemend as well. But now you freely rebuke them. Aren't you picking verses again?less

Now that we are on the topic of research, let me open up some discussion. My humble opinion is that we cannot generally research "life". Why? Good Parenting. What is good parenting? Parenting that provides children with material needs? or with emotional needs? or with both? Parenting that makes their children successful? Successful children. What is successful children? Good gra...more

Now that we are on the topic of research, let me open up some discussion.

My humble opinion is that we cannot generally research "life". Why?

Good Parenting. What is good parenting? Parenting that provides children with material needs? or with emotional needs? or with both? Parenting that makes their children successful?

Successful children. What is successful children? Good grades? Good christian? Good PERSON?

Good. What is good? Christianity? Or rather empathy and compassion?

So how can one say that same sex parents are bad parents, when one cannot even define what an ideal child would be? But I guess according to Star, an ideal child would be one that upholds the "stereotypical gender roles". And all else is perverted. Is that true?less

Online, I think what Mike is trying to say is that this issue has been discussed over and over and over again. I'd have to repeat it one last time: Premise 1: "Doesn't mean that it is not stated in the bible, it is forbidened" Justification: "The bible reflects the lives of those who write it. God inspired those people to write their lives so that we could lear...more

Online,

I think what Mike is trying to say is that this issue has been discussed over and over and over again.

I'd have to repeat it one last time:

Premise 1: "Doesn't mean that it is not stated in the bible, it is forbidened"

Justification: "The bible reflects the lives of those who write it. God inspired those people to write their lives so that we could learn from the value embedded within. During their times, there was no such thing as a same sex marriage, so obviously it is not discussed by the bible."

Premise 2: "The verses in the bible that talks about homosexuality do not directly speak against men loving other men."
Justification: "Most of the times, it refers to men lusting for men and having sex with them merely for lust. It is perhaps true that there would be an equal amount of verses that speak against men having sex with women for non-procreational purposes. When the bible spoke against homosexual sex, it is generally speaking against non-procretional sex."

Now let me try and make this argument clear
Argument 1: "The bible should not be taken literally."

Premise 1: "We do not get to choose what to follow in the bible and what to ignore."
Premise 2: "Since the bible is the word of God, everything written in it should be valid."
Premise 3: "If the bible is taken literally, MANY verses written in the bible is not valid, and many christians simply don't abide by them."
Premise 4: "Hence, if the bible were taken literally, we would have to exclude certain statments of the bible; this contradicts Premise 1."
Conclusion: "The bible should not be taken literally, and we should take the value that is embedded within. That way, the bible would make most sense."less

Star, So I guess it's also a perversion for females to want to take the role of protecting and providing? It's a perversion for females to want to earn the bread and buttter for the family? It's a perversion for females to not want to be treated as weak? It's a perversion for females to want to be pastors; for females to want to lead? "Incest". So, now we a...more

Star,

So I guess it's also a perversion for females to want to take the role of protecting and providing? It's a perversion for females to want to earn the bread and buttter for the family? It's a perversion for females to not want to be treated as weak? It's a perversion for females to want to be pastors; for females to want to lead?

"Incest".

So, now we are at the topic of incestuous relationships. Did Adam's family not commit incest? So which part of the bible tells you that consentuous incestuous relationships are wrong? This has nothign to do with homoesxuality, just peoples' preference in love.

"Being queer means pushing the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family, and in the process transforming the very fabric of society."

Oh yes, the fabric of society has always been the family unit consisting of one father, one mother and a few children? What about polygamous relationships in the past? Concubines, harems, etc? We change! Society change! And I hope it's always for the better!

The world is not all black and white. God makes the world diverse so that it could be beautiful. All of us created unique with different kind of personalities. Some women want to be provided for, some want to provide. Some want to be engineers, some want to be artists, some want to be scientists. Some would like to have a relationship with the opposite sex, some would like it with the same sex. If you look at God's creation, it's actually very very beautiful; just like the promised land.less

Believer, Really? Is there a line in the NT that says we are allowed to consume swine now? Or that it's okay to grow 2 kinds of crops on the same field? Or that it's okay for a woman to intervine in 2 men's argument? Or that it's okay to work in the Sabbath?

Believer, You can't just decide which passage in the bible to adopt and which to throw away! You either take it all, or take none at all. And like I said before, for the bible to be timeless, it is not the "literal" words that are supposed to be conveyed, it's the value embedded within the stories. God tells his words in tales, and wish for us to understand the value behind ...more

Believer,

You can't just decide which passage in the bible to adopt and which to throw away! You either take it all, or take none at all. And like I said before, for the bible to be timeless, it is not the "literal" words that are supposed to be conveyed, it's the value embedded within the stories. God tells his words in tales, and wish for us to understand the value behind it.

Is it not hypocritical that you value the bible so much and proclaim that "oh there are some rules that are not applicable!" So who decides? You? The Church?less

"Gay parents are incapable of providing the proper gender role model for an adoptive child." What kind of gender role model? The kind where females are supposed to be weak and dominated by their husbands and where their husbands are chauvinistic males who think that they are created superior to their female counterparts?

"If all heterosexuals loved and took care of the children they created, then gay adoption wouldn't even BE an issue." Ouch! I don't think my parents could have raised me better! That's very 1. untrue. 2. judgmental. 3. Not just mean to me because I don't really care, but mean to my parents.

Delight, "You interpret the bible into oblivion and God and His word don't have any value other than what you place on them" His words don't have any value to me other than what he shows me through his creation. I use his words to help me understand the life that he has given me through the help of the wisdom he has bestowed me with. I try to understand his other crea...more

Delight,

"You interpret the bible into oblivion and God and His word don't have any value other than what you place on them"

His words don't have any value to me other than what he shows me through his creation. I use his words to help me understand the life that he has given me through the help of the wisdom he has bestowed me with.

I try to understand his other creations, by attempting to take. in other people's perspective - the christians, muslims, atheists, capitalists, communists, blacks, whites, women, men, homosexuals, etc. And I realize that the more I learn from other individuals, the more I see how his words for us make sense; the more I understand his values and his creation.

You take the scripture as an absolute, while I take the "living". Because God seldom contradicts himself, hence if we find that his creation contradicts his words, it's either we have yet to understand his words or his creation. I choose to believe in the former, you the latter.

I have faith in his creation, you have faith in his words. Perhaps in the end, we'd realize that none of us are wrong - it's all part of God's "twisted" way of working things out. (Twisted because I have yet to understand.)less