Episcopal Church Defrocks Breakaway Bishop

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

Enigma -- well said, now we are getting somewhere. The question begs, when Christ teaches "Let you who are without sin be the first to cast a stone" when the mob wanted to clamoring mob wanted to stone the sinner, don't you see a parallel there with what is going on here.

On a second not, will those of you accusing me of apostasy please look up that word. Apostacy is the renouncing or abandonment of faith -- I have done neither. If you want to accuse me of something, accuse me of heresy. Christ was a heretic to the Jews, Martin Luther a heretic to the Catholic Church -- so at least I'll be in good company.

Episcopal Church Defrocks Breakaway Bishop

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Enigma -- lets leave it as you don't understand me correctly. I believe that we have to be careful about picking and choosing which parts of the Bible, rather than paying attention to the greater message. Tell me where the Episcopal Church doesn't teach the Truth.

Study: Behaviors Americans Consider 'Sinful'

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

jesse,

I believe you are absolutely correct in your statement of "thats not the message". If its not the worship of God for the glory of God -- then I believe it can be a sin, if the reasons for doing it are not motivated by the desire to bring glory to God. Following the letter of law got another group of people in trouble if I remember correctly.

Episcopal Church Defrocks Breakaway Bishop

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

John14-6: with regard to your inquiry into the selection of leadership within the Episcopal Church. Fundamentally yes -- much like the national governments of the United States, England, and others, TEC functions using a republican form of governance -- that is through diocesan, state, and national conventions. Article II of the Constitution and Canons of the General Convention of the Episcopal Church covers Bishops. Bishops are selected from eligible candidates (ordained priests, 30 yrs of age or older) by the diocese that is in need of a Bishop through a lengthy process that varies somewhat betwee dioceses. The selection is done by an apointed committee, not by the actual congrations with little or no input from the parish congregation members. The process is repeated for Bishops at other levels in a similar fashion.

If an individual Christian, disagrees with the leadership of any particular branch of Christianity, they have the right to do so, we must be careful when our disagreement turns to judgement.

The fundamental problem in this situation is that many of the Bishops, parishes and congregations that have left, are in the process of, or are discussing leaving TEC are doing so for more reasons than just the consecration of an openly gay man as a Bishop. Given the structure of the Episcopal Church, it is no more a reflection on the individual than the government of the United States or England is on the citizens of those country. This is about politics and is being used by many as "the final straw".

If you reflect, neither Christ nor Martin Luther set out to "split" the faith of their day, they set out to right the wrongs. If my fellow Episcopals are so incensed by women in the priest role and the ordination of gays to the pulpit, then they should either work to change the position of the church from within, or simply change denominations -- their actions are judgemental, and unless I've misread something, one sin never justifies another.

Episcopal Church Defrocks Breakaway Bishop

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

jar1961 and many others-- engaging in ad hominen personal attacks is never the way to bring someone to your opinion or belief; I don't believe you'll find Christ setting this example, nor in judging others the way many of you seem to be so ready to do, He chose to forgive rather than judge. Note that 'Bishop' Schofield is in fact no longer a bishop of anything; he resigned his holy orders in January (check the web).

As far as the Book of Timothy (which jar1961 was not written by anyone named Timothy as your response seems to imply) what about Paul's letters to the Hebrews as to how someone is called to serve as a priest/pastor/bishop. Do a search on the web for homosexuality in the New Testament, you might be surprise by the what biblical scholars have to say.

And with regard to people staying in the pulpit, any preacher that commits the same sin repeatedly is governed by those words, not just the supposed sin of homosexuality. Note, that I say supposed, because other than the OT, God makes no prohibition agains homosexuality in the Bible. Read that carefully people, GOD -- The NT addresses homosexuality in the words of Paul, not the words of Christ.

Moses brings explicit laws to the wandering Israelites in the matter, but if you are going to take those as authoritatively apply to Christian, then you've got 630+ other laws you'd better start following as well.

As a personal note, I am a happily married (22 years) heterosexual male with 3 children ages 20, 19, and soon to be 13. I am a scientist and a devout Christian, who believe the message of the Bible and lives his life to that message to the glory of God, not by picking and choosing passages and listening to the words of others, but by studying the word of God in English, German, Hebrew, Greek and Latin. I teach the scripture study at my church, am active all aspects of church life.

As a note, its not just the homosexuals Schofield has a problem with, he's equally opposed to women as priests. This isn't about religion or faith, its about politics.

Before one person tells another about the Truth, they might take some time to learn it for themselves. One must first forgive before one can be forgiven; Christ was Love, not condemnation. God allows each of us to condemn ourselves, He won't do it for you.

Study: Behaviors Americans Consider 'Sinful'

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

1man has the crux of the idea here -- sin is anything that gets between God and yourself. Sin is things we do and things we don't do. We all sin, get over it. If you are a Christian and think you aren't a sinner, I got news for you, God knows we are all sinners.

Get over it folks, we all sin. All we can do is acknowledge that and try to walk in His ways to the best of our abilities: make nothing in your life more important than the two greatest commandants, love the Lord, and love your neighbors.

Episcopal Church Defrocks Breakaway Bishop

DaveRaymer »

Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

A slight clarification to the report --

"...San Joaquin is the first full diocese to split from the liberal-leaning denomination"
The Diocese of San Joaquin voted at a diocesan convention leave the TEC with 42 out of 47 parishes (churches) supporting the move. Subsequently, a totoal of 17 parishes have chosen to remain to with TEC.

Calling the TEC liberal leaning is a bit unfair -- one state selecting an openly gay bishop and the ordination of women does not make one liberal, tolerant perhaps, liberal, no. You'll find a large number of politically conversative parishioners in most Episcopal Churches