R4H: While it is true that same-sex marriage is a relatively new scheme so is Protestantism. Ironically, it is the majority in this country because of Henry, VIII's philandering. The argument that something should persist because it is lacks substance. The same assertions were used in Loving. Religion, law and societies change,

"The motivation for their ruling is clear. They know that marriage is between a man and a woman, and they know that the people would vote that way." a. The motivation is clear; to obey the law which, ironically, Marion Barry championed. b. The reason for such laws is to prohibit the tyranny of the majority over a minority. Sometimes the whims of the electorate represent mob rule. T...more

"The motivation for their ruling is clear. They know that marriage is between a man and a woman, and they know that the people would vote that way."

a. The motivation is clear; to obey the law which, ironically, Marion Barry championed.

b. The reason for such laws is to prohibit the tyranny of the majority over a minority. Sometimes the whims of the electorate represent mob rule. That is one of the reasons that most states and the federal government make constitutional amendments very difficult to enact.

Civil rights should never be subject to the will of the electorate or we might still have segregation as law in several states.less

"What arrogance! For thousands of years, almost every society has known that marriage is between one man and one woman. Jesus verified that this is God's view of marriage in Matthew 19:4-6." Actually, for most of human history, marriage was between one man and MORE than one woman. Through the 19th century, marriage was mostly about property conveyance. If, indeed, laws change ...more

"What arrogance! For thousands of years, almost every society has known that marriage is between one man and one woman. Jesus verified that this is God's view of marriage in Matthew 19:4-6."

Actually, for most of human history, marriage was between one man and MORE than one woman. Through the 19th century, marriage was mostly about property conveyance.

If, indeed, laws change the definition of marriage then laws prohibiting polygamy changed that definition far more - affecting far more people than the recognition of same-sex marriage.less

By the way, sexual orientation is not a "gender issue." Gender identity and sexual orientation are two entirely separate things. Many trans-gender individuals are heterosexual (as defined by their chromosomes).

Please. Don Schmierer is a crackpot. I challenge you to find a single peer reviewed study linking sexual orientation to deafness. The man is totally lacking in credentials and erudition.

Uganda is inches away from genocide (again). While Lively and his two idiotic cohorts were stirring up hatred, the government "persuaded" some guy to cop a plea by "admitting" that he was part of an international group that organized the recruitment of children. This made a big splash on Uganda media. The other two crackpots were Caleb Lee Brundidge, a "sexual reorienta...more

Uganda is inches away from genocide (again). While Lively and his two idiotic cohorts were stirring up hatred, the government "persuaded" some guy to cop a plea by "admitting" that he was part of an international group that organized the recruitment of children. This made a big splash on Uganda media.

The other two crackpots were Caleb Lee Brundidge, a "sexual reorientation coach" for the International Healing Foundation, whose signature technique, as demonstrated on CNN, involves patients beating on chairs with tennis rackets and screaming, "Mom, Mom, why did you do this to me?" and Don Schmierer, a board member for Exodus International. Schmierer warns parents in his guide to preventing homosexuality to watch out for boys who show "extreme macho behavior"} are "frail, deformed, deaf" or "avoid fights/physical altercations."less

National same-sex marriage is inevitable. In 20 years people will look back and wonder how this was a controversy. Some people, if they are still above ground, are going to be very embarrassed.

Martin Luther King's daughter once said: "I've met a lot of ex-gays, I have yet to meet an ex-black." =============================================== In the entire USA, there might be 1,200 people out of some 30 million gays and lesbians who claim to have changed their sexual orientation for any length of time. Even then. most are still gay but have forced themselves to eit...more

Martin Luther King's daughter once said: "I've met a lot of ex-gays, I have yet to meet an ex-black."

===============================================
In the entire USA, there might be 1,200 people out of some 30 million gays and lesbians who claim to have changed their sexual orientation for any length of time. Even then. most are still gay but have forced themselves to either be celibate or pursue opposite sex relationships - usually with other "ex" gays.

As Spitzer has written. "Change is possible but it is extremely rare." That is why none of the ex gay ministries have ever published independently reviewed data. In fact, Spitzer claimed that it was impossible to come up with 200 participants for his study.less

There is nothing new in Perkins' argument that gays are free to marry as long as it's someone of the opposite sex. The racists tried the same tactic in Loving v. Virginia and lost. Perkins' proposition that same-sex marriage is comparable to incest, bigamy or pedophilia (which are crimes) is preposterous. http://www.tips-q.com/968400-tony-perkins-responds-boies-olson

Colson's most porous argument to date. This is a subset of the "suppose someone wants to marry his dog?" argument. Let me know when someone wants legal recognition of his marriage to his Rottweiler and I promise to oppose it; Cross my heart and hope to die. Simply stated, there is no correlation to same-sex marriage which is between two consenting adults. Just two and the term "...more

Colson's most porous argument to date. This is a subset of the "suppose someone wants to marry his dog?" argument. Let me know when someone wants legal recognition of his marriage to his Rottweiler and I promise to oppose it; Cross my heart and hope to die. Simply stated, there is no correlation to same-sex marriage which is between two consenting adults. Just two and the term "consenting adults" doesn't apply to pets, plants or appliances (even if your Maytag gives you a rush).

http://www.tips-q.com/960668-chuck-colson-makes-his-most-porous-argument-dateless

This polemic is recklessly dishonest. This adds nothing but vitriol and bigotry to the discussion. I really took this guy to task: http://www.tips-q.com/937330-gagnon-homosexual-behavior-consensual-incest. Ironically, were I to post a comment with content similar to this article, it would be promptly flagged - and rightly so. BTW, those familiar with my comments on the site know that I nev...more

This polemic is recklessly dishonest. This adds nothing but vitriol and bigotry to the discussion. I really took this guy to task:

http://www.tips-q.com/937330-gagnon-homosexual-behavior-consensual-incest.

Ironically, were I to post a comment with content similar to this article, it would be promptly flagged - and rightly so. BTW, those familiar with my comments on the site know that I never gratuitously accuse people of bigotry.less

Rollin: Reproductive choice and gay rights are not comparable issues. The abortion issue is viewed in secular terms by many people. Opponents argue that a baby is being killed and is a victim while proponents argue that choice is over a fetus. Gay rights are almost uniquely opposed by the religious right and solely on religious grounds. Gay marriage only affects those consenting adults w...more

Rollin:

Reproductive choice and gay rights are not comparable issues.

The abortion issue is viewed in secular terms by many people. Opponents argue that a baby is being killed and is a victim while proponents argue that choice is over a fetus.

Gay rights are almost uniquely opposed by the religious right and solely on religious grounds. Gay marriage only affects those consenting adults who are thus wedded. It has no impact on anyone else. There is no victim.

The analogy is to Loving v. Virginia. Fundamentalist preachers used the identical religious arguments. Were I to find a text of Don Wildmon opposing Loving on religious grounds it would be extraordinarily embarrassing.less

Christians have a choice. The courts or the legislatures. If done by the state legislature, the marriage equality bill can be crafted to assuage fears. The NH bill that is now on the Governor's desk even reaffirms that polygamy isn't legal. Eventually, though, this is going to reach critical mass and every state (with the exception of one or two southern dead-enders) will acknowledge...more

Christians have a choice. The courts or the legislatures. If done by the state legislature, the marriage equality bill can be crafted to assuage fears. The NH bill that is now on the Governor's desk even reaffirms that polygamy isn't legal.

Eventually, though, this is going to reach critical mass and every state (with the exception of one or two southern dead-enders) will acknowledge gay marriage.

Ten years from now, many people are going to be mightily embarrassed for promoting discrimination.less

DP: There are many gay couples who have had "traditional" marriages that have produced children. That includes Bishop Eugene Robinson He and his partner share responsibilities and time with his former wife (who remains a very close friend) in the raising of his two children.

DP: YES. the JSR is a peer reviewed scientific journal. NO. I am not aware of, nor can I find, a study published in the JSR (or anywhere else for that matter) that suggests that gays commit proportionately more sex crimes. The most current study that I am aware of that is published and peer reviewed is the Jenny (sp?) study which concludes that gays are proportionately LESS likely to be ...more

DP:

YES. the JSR is a peer reviewed scientific journal.

NO. I am not aware of, nor can I find, a study published in the JSR (or anywhere else for that matter) that suggests that gays commit proportionately more sex crimes.

The most current study that I am aware of that is published and peer reviewed is the Jenny (sp?) study which concludes that gays are proportionately LESS likely to be pedophiles.

Cameron has written several papers in opposition to Jenny. None are published in a peer reviewed scientific journal.less

Kate don't confuse people with scientific fact. The problem is that critical thinkers seek answers to a question. In contrast, the incurious seek arguments to bolster a predetermined outcome. The notion that we gays are normal, healthy and not evil is contrary - not to what the bible says but - how the bible READS to literalists. Hence, it becomes necessary to create mythology to e...more

Kate don't confuse people with scientific fact.

The problem is that critical thinkers seek answers to a question. In contrast, the incurious seek arguments to bolster a predetermined outcome.

The notion that we gays are normal, healthy and not evil is contrary - not to what the bible says but - how the bible READS to literalists.

Hence, it becomes necessary to create mythology to explain away the difference. Two such myths are conversion "therapy" and the notion that the APA is, or was, controlled by gay activists.

At the extremes are people like Paul Cameron who simply manufactured "research" that could be used by Christian fundamentalists to "argue" with real published and peer reviewed studies.

Gay people - particularly gay youth - are probably five times more likely to commit suicide than the general population. Some of these "good Christians" should think about that and the extent to which the Christian right is responsible. How many parents condemn their children because their church has convinced them (with no basis whatsoever) that their kid has made an evil choice that can be reversed.

People like Dobson assert that they have the right advice to prevent homosexuality. They specifically counsel parents not to accept their gay children because it will make it harder for the kid to change back.less

Rolin: Given that I use a real name and post generally in opposition to the prevailing meme. I am a poor candidate to suggest for prevarication. I do not know of ANY study published in a peer reviewed scientific journal that associates sexual orientation with developmental sexual trauma such as molestation. As for that link, it also says: "A study published in the Journal of Sex R...more

Rolin:

Given that I use a real name and post generally in opposition to the prevailing meme. I am a poor candidate to suggest for prevarication.

I do not know of ANY study published in a peer reviewed scientific journal that associates sexual orientation with developmental sexual trauma such as molestation.

As for that link, it also says:

"A study published in the Journal of Sex Research revealed while homosexuals only account for roughly 3 to 4 percent of the entire population, homosexuals commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses. Other studies show similar findings."

That is Cameronesque bunk. The FBI statistics are in complete disagreement as are numerous studies (as always, PUBLISHED in PEER REVIEWED scientific journals). The JSR is a publication of The Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality. No such study seems to exist.less

"I hear people every day who do defeat their feelings and return to the Lord" There are approximately 20 to 25 million gay people in the US. There are approximately 1,200 people in the US who claim to have changed their sexual orientation for more than three years. Many of these are celibate.

"Most gays I know were molested by a cousin, neighbor, friend etc. or even perhaps willing engaging in activity - most was done during prime pre-pub years." BALONEY! Presumably, I know a few more gay people than you do and I don't know anyone who was molested. This theory seems only to exist in evangelical circles.

"and yet there is no study to date that conclusively proves sexual orientation is not a choice" Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. "Conclusively" is rare in science. The numerous, repeated twin studies are pretty compelling as is the "male sibling effect." The evidence that sexual orientation is biological is far more convincing than anything...more

"and yet there is no study to date that conclusively proves sexual orientation is not a choice"

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. "Conclusively" is rare in science.

The numerous, repeated twin studies are pretty compelling as is the "male sibling effect."

The evidence that sexual orientation is biological is far more convincing than anything suggesting that reparative "therapy" is safe and effective.

If you are looking for a gene (which is the straw man du jour), that's not going to happen. In fact, you cannot determine someone's race from their genome.less