Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer,

I'm sorry my friend, but I thought I answered the question.

2Sam is a stretch to prove that all children go to heaven. We all need salvation and Jesus came for all. The Kingdom of God is for everyone and your children. Peter didn't specify age in the Greek when he said "Children", so we do not know if he meant infants too.

We do see in Scripture where whole households were baptized. Explicit baptism of infants is not present in scripture, but an implicity representation is and then if we connect the dots with historical writings we see that all infants were baptized without exception. The Apostles obviously taught them this because it was proacticed throughout all the churches, or they would not have done it. The only problem about baptism that came up was whether you baptize infants at birth or on the eighth day, which is the same day as circumcision. Again, this adds to the proof of how Paul discussed how baptism is how the new covenant is established much like circumcision was to the Old.

I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear. I am still not on my A game yet with my health issues right now.

Also, I will have to be off the board for a little while until I finish my tests at the hospital. The doctors think I may have had a mild stroke instead of heart problems. If I can ask for prayers from this board I would appreciate it. Also, Please pray for my wife too because she is very worried about me.

Thank you in advance for your prayers. My confidence is in Christ my savior in all things.

100,000 Catholics Gather for Youth Event in Sydney

EvanCal »

Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

Steiner,

As a Reformed Minister, I would also appreciate if you did some credible research about Catholic practices. Your approach gives us Protestants a bad name. I hold you as a fellow Christian accountable.

You paint a picture about the Mass that is incorrect. This week in Australia many Protestant leaders will be meeting with the Pope to pray for him and his mission to bring people to Christ. All of us denominations do and believe things that others may seem as strange some may even interpret it as a practice or belief that is unbiblical. We Protestants have just as many problems dealing with interpretation and doctrine inside of Protestantism, as we do with the Catholics. Protestant leaders throughout the World Council of Churches accept Catholics as Christians and people like you need to work for unity.

Yes, we have some profound differences but these differences are not insurmountable and with the Grace of God we must come to one understanding of faith in Christ.

May everyone hear the call of God and come to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

star2,

The Bible does allude to infants and children being baptized"Whole households were baptized". Yes, it is not explicit so we must look historically on how the very first Christians understood what the Apostles were teaching. The New Testament was not written at this time and the majority of people who became Christians were adults and as these adults got older and had children they always got their children baptized.

Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the Apostle John and there are many writings discussing him baptizing infants and describes it as a covenental relationship being established.

We must not dismiss what the early Christians did, nor how they understood the Apostles' teachings. These early Christians got it straight from the Apostles and it is highly doubtful that they got it wrong based on all the corroberating evidence.

Forgive me if I am not spelling so well right now, ti has been a very rough week for me.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Star2,

While I appreciate your thoughtful insights 2Sam would not support a case that all children are saved and go straight to heaven, then we truly didn't need a savior then did we?

2Sam is truly reaching to say that all babies go to heaven. You are either of the New covenant or you are not. The covenantal relationship is established with God's people through Baptism. No other act, nor by faith alone is a convenant established in Scripture.

Baptism is the only way we become a disciple, a member of the Church, where we die with Jesus and where we are born again(regeneration). We are a new creature through baptism and all that was past is washed away.

Scripture does not say explicitly or implicitly what happens to children or infants if they are not baptized. All we can do without this information is to pray for these children and if you have children get them baptized so the covenantal relationship with God may be established.

Theologians see no other way our relationship is formally cemented other than baptism. If you are outside the covenant, then you are outside the Grace of God. A relationship must be established and for infants it is baptism and for adults it is faith and baptism. Infants can not have faith, so by being baptised they will be saved if they die before the age of reason.

It is all about the relationship with God in the end and it must be established some way, and the kingdom of God is for everyone. Faith is a gift, but you make it into a work like it is something these children must do. Faith comes to us as a gift. We are saved by Grace and that Grace comes to us through our relationship with him in a covenantal bond, which is baptism.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Baptism of water and spirit are inseparable.

Acts 2:38-39
"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off,every one whom the Lord our God calls to Him."

Notice that baptism is God's grace for us that the gift of the HS comes at baptism. This promise is for children too and it is for EVERYONE GOD calls. The kingdom of God is for everyone at every age.

Thanks, I hope this was helpful to you. The overwhelming scriptural evidence is that we must be baptized to go to Heaven, to establish the new covenant, to be washed of sins, etc. Also, baptism of both water and spirit happens at the same time. This Spirit confers regeneration or being born again through baptism.

God bless you Matheets. If my spelling is a bit off, it is just because I'm still not 100%. Thanks for understanding.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Here is a prefigurement of baptism; Ezekiel 36:25-27
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

In Acts 22:16 Paul is baptized and his sins are washed away. "And now why do wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
1Corinthians 6:11, you have been washed meaning baptism's purifying effects(Acts 22:16; Heb 10:22)
Titus 3:5 also talks about regeneration of the person through baptism by the washing. "Born again" is regeneration.
1 Peter 3:20-21 "when God's patience wited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, NOW SAVES YOU, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a cleaner conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Mathetes,

Thanks for the correction on Jesus baptizing. I'm getting old and its been a rough week for me already with my heart having some problems this weekend. I'm not on my A-game.

I agree that both faith and baptism are needed for an adult. The Thief on the cross is a good question. Many theologians have come to the conclusion that this was an exception and if the thief had lived he would have been baptized. Jesus, being God, is not bound by his own sacraments or ordinances and gave this man full absolution of his past crimes so he had no sin. He accepted Jesus, but the theif showed remorse and wanted to change which shows contrition. By accepting who Jesus is, the thief was washed of his sins. Obviously, this thief had no chance to be baptized, so this would be the exception to the rule.

Notice also in Acts 8, they believed and were baptized. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down to Jesus in the sign of a dove.

Here is the point. If you are of the age of reason and receive faith in Christ, then you will be baptized because that is the function or process of salvation. Baptism is a material gift provided by God to His people to establish this covenantal relationship, wash away sins, make them born again, etc.

Some received the Holy Spirit again after being baptized too. This was through confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
Confirmation is for young adults or adults to seal them with the Holy Spirit to live their faith as an adult. Baptism and Confirmation are both ways that Grace is infused to the believer. As a Pastor, I must go by what Scripture clearly says to do for all believers, which is to baptize them. For infants born of an elect family, those parents show prudence in baptizing them so that God's covenant is made with them too. Peter said in

Star2,

Do babies go to hell then? If we have to born again, which to you is only an intellectual assent, then do babies who cannot be born again using your logic go to Hell?

Thanks for this discussion.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Wbmoore,
I listed quite a few questions and you didn't answer any. Could you answer them please, thanks?


If you read all of John 3, you will see what Jesus means about being born again has nothing to do with amniotic fluid and that is a stretch since it has no other passages that support your hypothesis. Here Jesus talks about being born again and then right after he finished the lesson what did he do? He went out and baptized.

John 3:22 "After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

Here we see quite clearly that even Jesus baptized people and that he did this right after explaining to Nicodemus about baptism. Yes, we were born through flesh but now we are born of water and spirit and in baptism you get both and there is no sepparation.

New Site Seeks 10,000 Catholics for Obama

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Abortion is murder! No Catholic or Protestant Christian who believes what scripture says could ever in a good conscience vote for a candidate who supports such evil.

Yes, the lives lost in Iraq are very sad and we should pray for a quick end to this war, but you cannot compare 50Million American aborted to 4500 Americans killed in war. Not only is the number far higher with abortion, but these babies are totally innocent and therefore the killing of a baby is an intrinsic evil.

I don't like either candidate that well, but I am voting for McCain because at least he won't kill babies!

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

wbmoore and believer,

A couple more things on baptism.

The only way to be a disciple of Christ is to be baptized in the trinitarian formula. The only way to heaven is to be born anew or born again through water and spirit, which is baptism. The only way to be a member of the Church and the body of Christ is to be baptized.

No where in scripture does it point that you can be a member of the Church, or a disciple or have your sins washed away without baptism. A Child's parents will by the Grace of God get that child baptized, so that their child is considered a part of the new covenant.

The new covenant is established only through baptism.

Peace, my friend.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Wbmoore,

Thanks. Yes, it was a scary moment for me because my chest was pounding like it was about to come out of my chest. Thanks for your prayers. I go in for tests this week.

The early church and reformation churches have never seen baptism as a work. It is a significant part of the salvation process. We can not earn our salvation by anything we do. The Mosaic law is the works that was specifically outlined that you cannot earn your way to heaven without a relationship with God. Many Jews in the OT did not have a relationship with God, and believed that we can earn our way to Heaven by strict adherance to the Mosaic law.

Faith in God is a grace and baptism is a grace. Grace is a free gift from God. Baptism is a gift from God to wash our sins away. We are only receiving this gift.

An infant cannot have faith, nor choose Christ so how can grace be given to that infant whether it be an infant of a Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Mormon or Budhist family? The bible specifically says that when we are baptised our sins are washed away and the Holy Spirit comes into us. It also says in scripture that if the parents believe, then their whole household may be saved. We must all choose Christ, but if you cannot choose Christ yet like an infant then a faithful parent will get that child baptized so that child will be a member of the church, washed away original sin and is now a disciple.

Do you believe Muslim babies are saved? I don't, but I can pray for God's mercy on them.

Do you perform dedications at your church instead of baptism?

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Believer,
Sorry for the delay in answering your question. I had a bit of a heart palpitation this weekend that scared me a bit, but I'm ok now. When you get old the body just isn't what it use to be.

On Baptism: Do you believe that a babies of Christians, Hindu, Budhists, non-believers go to Heaven? Now, I can hope that they are all saved by Grace and especially by Mercy, but there is no place in the Bible that tells me explicitly that we don't need Baptism it tells me the opposite is true. In the Scriptures we see how we must be "Born Again" of water and spirit. The spirit came down from Heaven at the time of Jesus' baptism. The spirit is always involved at baptism and infuses Grace in us to make us one of the elect and a disciple of Christ. Without baptism we are not of the elect and we are not a disciple of Christ.

How is Grace dispensed? If we follow your logical assumption to its end then everyone is saved before the age of reason because you wouldn't baptize infants or young children b4 the age of reason. You have a universalis view of salvation and I do not. If Grace is just given to anyone without faith or even baptism, then all people will be saved no matter what and that is not my belief. I believe Christ came to save the whole world, but you must be of the elect and you must be a disciple which means you must be baptized and there is no way around it.

Now, pragmatically thinking God is not bound to the ordinances He demanded, but we are. God can will to save anyone He wants, but we must go by the Bible and it tells us that Baptism saves, that it washes away sin, and that the Holy Spirit is infused into us at Baptism making us born again.

I do not believe based on scripture that we can assume or hope for the best for our children. I will just follow what God told His people to do and baptize our infants. Everyone needs baptism to be saved. Baptism is not a work or something you earn, anymore than having faith is a you earn. My faith calls me to be baptized and baptize my children so that they too can be members of the body of Christ, be born again and be saved. Without baptism, the infant's fate is on par with children of hindu's, budhists and others non-believers. There is nothing in Scripture that explicitly or implicitly says baptism is only for adults, but rather baptism is for everyone. If you don't baptize your infants, then you are not depending on Grace you are depending on Mercy. To be of the elect, something must make you different and that difference is Baptism and the fact the Holy Spirit now resides in you.

I hope I aswered your question.

Episcopal Head Ready for Challenging Face-to-Face Talks

EvanCal »

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:28 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

Such a sad story. Maybe I'm just old, but a woman in a Roman collar looks really silly. Remember, a women is not a Priest but a Priestess like someone else said on this board. A priestess is the proper term for a female priest. Just like we call a woman a stewardess or a man a steward on a plane. You can't avoid calling them by their proper name.

It is so obvious when you do call them by their proper name and define things properly that you can realize the absurdity of women being priests. They are a priestess which is pagan, just like the practice they follow.

If it is not in scripture and if Jesus didn't ordain it, then reject it.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

wbmoore,

I appreciate all the time you took in bringing up some points against the Catholic Church. As a Reformed minister there are still some profound areas that will still need to be discussed before unity can ever be reached.

I would say that you wrote a lot of your opinions much like I might of 30 years ago. This is not an insult, but an observation. I'm sure you have many experiences that have led you to these positions. I would encourage you if the opportunity presents itself to seek more formal education at seminary. In seminary and in getting a Masters or PhD, you will find many of the things you wrote are caracitures of the Catholic Church, and not infact the real thing. It has taken me 20+ years to realize that the majority of beliefs I had about Catholics were misplaced. Twenty years ago I would have gone so far to say that Catholics were not Christians at all. Today, after 30 years of research, fellowship, doctrinal research and historical study that I can say they are 100% Christian. No, I Have not gotten soft in my old age. I am profoundly sad that it took me this long to realize it through all my study and loyalty to the Bible.

You wrote a lot of information, which is too much for me to discuss each point, so I will thank you for your time in writing it and hope that you will consider reading information from a Catholic stand point.

I have never feared reading information from other Christian groups from their perspective. I feel it leads us all into dialogue and Truth. In the end, we all want to be one Christian Church with no division so that we can more effectively proclaim the Gospel of Christ. I have read hundreds if not a thousand books by Catholics and I didn't ever fear of converting, but it gave me a perspective biblically and culturally to understand why they do the things they do and why they believe the way they do. I may not believe how they do, but it is reasonable to think how they do based on their scriptural interpretation backed up by their historical and culteral information. It is different, but it is not unreasonable.

I am thankful to all my Christian brothers and sisters who love Christ. While I might aggresively disagree with my Baptists friends on baptism and my Catholic friends on the infallibility of the Pope, I count them as fellow Christians and I am proud to stand next to them as we defeat liberal secularism and ungodly values.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mathetes,
Thank you for repeating your question concerning women in ministry. Yes, Paul was in Ephesus and he was speaking to the Church in Ephesus, but this Church he spoke to was not of a different faith as the other churches. Paul was speaking to the Universal or catholic churches. His location was in Ephesus, but his teaching was for the universal church for all times and all places. All of the earliest churches were of one mind and one faith.

The Ephesus Church was in full communion with Rome, with Jerusalem, with Antioch, with Corinth. They were all the same church with different particular locations.

We also would say in the Reformed Tradition that there is no scriptural basis for women to be ordained. Also, there is no historical evidence that points to women ever called to ministry either. Catholics would say that there is no Tradition of women in ministry. We do see some cases in heretical groups, but they were clearly not Christians since they denied Christ humanity. Jesus only called men to be ordained. Who are we to change it?

I hope this was helpful.

Believer,
Maybe I got you confused with someone else as I was dealing with quite a few volleys yesterday and I'm not a young man anymore. Sorry for the confusion and being aggresive towards you.

Be blessed.+

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Also, please don't flag Star2 even if you don't agree with her or anyone else. Flagging is for abusive, Spam, Offensinve, Illegal, Racist or libellous Posts and although we have all said certain things that may not be considered the most charitable, let's try and relax a bit and let the Holy Spirit calm our hearts and minds.

Peace to you all.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

ONe last thing Prophet, divorce is highly frowned upon and should never be taken lightly. Divorce should only be allowed in extreme cases. Each case is highly individualized, so I've tried to give a generalization to a very specific and sensitive topic.

Peace.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Prophet,

Is the marriage question for me?? If it is, then I will say scripture does allow for divorce but never allows for remarriage if it was a valid Christian ceremony. Civil ceremonies are not recognized as valid without a wedding in a Christian ceremony where you bring God into the marriage to bind it. Marriage is for life and it is a sin to marry, then divorce and remarry. It would be adultery.

I hope this is helpful.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mathetes,

Could you ask me your question again, my friend? Who keeps flagging all of us? I think flagging is not appropriate just because we might disagree. Truth should always prevail and the scriptures are always are way to refute items.

Thank you.

Hi Prophet, we are all members of the Church but none of us alone are the Church. The Church or assembly takes more than one, it is a community. It is both the physical Church such as the hiearchy and the spiritual church of all the believers which make up the body of Christ. Technically speaking, the gates of hell will never prevail against THE CHURCH that professes to be a part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church. This includes Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants. If you bear witness to the Apostles creed then your beliefs are in the mainstream of Christianity and spiritually you are a full member of the church. As long as you have been baptized then you are a member. There are many churches that disagree on serious doctrines, but they are still conssidered Christians.

I hope this helps.

Evangelism Teams to Plant Churches in 40 Ukrainian Cities

EvanCal »

Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Like the Scripture says, we must be "Born Again" through water and spirit. This is baptism. As an adult we must have faith too, but as a child before the age of reason the gift of baptism washes away original sin and puts the Holy Spirit into you.

Thanks believer.