MisterE, I never made any comment towards you. We all make up the body of Christ, which is the Church. We have saints and sinners in this body, but none of us are the church as an individual we are only the church as a community. You and I are members if we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord, died for our sins, etc. Go to the Apostles Creed. I don't think you and I have ever discuss...more

MisterE,

I never made any comment towards you. We all make up the body of Christ, which is the Church. We have saints and sinners in this body, but none of us are the church as an individual we are only the church as a community. You and I are members if we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord, died for our sins, etc. Go to the Apostles Creed.

I don't think you and I have ever discussed anything, so I wasn't making any remark to you.

Also, you will know your fellow Christians by their fruit. I know I bear fruit everyday and I know morally I stand on the right side of Scripture too. No gay marriage, no abortion, no euthanasia, no cloning, no women ordained, etc.

Peace.less

Prophet, The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. You are not the church, but a member. Humility, please. Individualism can be taken to become a sin of self centered idolotry.

Believer, You are of a group of Christians that has always been outside historic Christianity. I could say the same exact thing you said to me to you. I work with many baptists and pentecostals at ecumenical meetings and have been blessed by their witness to Christ. I have gained much from them, and I hope they would say the same about me. While I love my Baptist and Pentecostal brothers an...more

Believer,
You are of a group of Christians that has always been outside historic Christianity. I could say the same exact thing you said to me to you.

I work with many baptists and pentecostals at ecumenical meetings and have been blessed by their witness to Christ. I have gained much from them, and I hope they would say the same about me.

While I love my Baptist and Pentecostal brothers and sisters, I still feel they have some beliefs about scripture that are quite wrong as I'm sure they feel the same about me and the Reformed Tradition. Baptists recently have had a harder time with Pentecostals saying that they are Christians, rather than Catholics. Baptists in the past have always considered Catholics the enemy and Catholics just ignored Baptists.

My point is that you and I will disagree about doctrine and we will probably disagree on who will win the Super Bowl too, but the majority of Bible believing Christians accept Catholics as Christians. The fact that you don't does not make your position more superior. It just means you enjoy being the underdog per se. The majority of conservative Christians accept Catholics as Christians. The majority of extreme liberals and extreme fundamentalists do not.

I think a lot of denominations have some unbiblical beliefs, but as long as those beliefs don't deny the salvific work of Christ then I accept them. If they believe in the Apostles Creed, then I accept them. I am not a liberal since we don't have any of those in our church. We are strict conservative Christians and we accept Catholics as Christians. Years ago we would not have, but then again we didn't exactly talk to each other either. I praise God for all our discussions in charity.less

When will the Lutes start discussing ABORTION!!!! I still can't believe that some Lutherans won't support all Pro-life candidates! I think both candidates stink, but based on a hiearchy of moral values McCain will get my vote. Obama is a very scary person. End Times???

Prophet, I'm sure we all have teachings that are not completely biblical in another persons eyes and that's the problem! I'm glad to hear you think Catholics are Christians. I am sick and tired of fundamentalists like Star2 who have no sensibilities. At one ecumenical meeting, there were some very well respected Pentecostals who said Baptism isn't needed at all and it was...more

Prophet,

I'm sure we all have teachings that are not completely biblical in another persons eyes and that's the problem! I'm glad to hear you think Catholics are Christians. I am sick and tired of fundamentalists like Star2 who have no sensibilities.

At one ecumenical meeting, there were some very well respected Pentecostals who said Baptism isn't needed at all and it wasn't important to be baptized using the trinitarian formula. A Lutheran pastor had to be held back from punching him for saying that! They said,"Just baptize in the name of Jesus and you are good to go." This kind of theological relativism is more rampant than you think. Every single group seems to be watering down scripture and it makes me sick.

We get together to charitably discuss scripture with fellow Christians to come to one consensus. We desperately need to be of one mind and one faith in our one baptism for our one and only Lord Jesus Christ.less

Star2, You make very large prudential judgements about whether or not I am saved or lost. Like MSNChris said many times before your EGO is larger than any man on this board. EGO(EDGING GOD OUT). You lack any humility and as a women you scripturally have no place to teach me anything. Have your husband talk to me or teach me something new and I will be open to listen to him. If you have no hus...more

Star2,

You make very large prudential judgements about whether or not I am saved or lost. Like MSNChris said many times before your EGO is larger than any man on this board. EGO(EDGING GOD OUT). You lack any humility and as a women you scripturally have no place to teach me anything. Have your husband talk to me or teach me something new and I will be open to listen to him. If you have no husband then be quiet as the Bible teaches.

Women have no place in deciding matters of faith it is the man who is the head of the family and it is the man who leads the congregations as God intended it.

Star2 also claims too much. You are not God and therefore have no place to make prudential judgements about another person's salvation.less

Prophet, Prophets usually don't call themselves prophets. By reputation others call them Prophets because they prophesy and are never wrong, and since you have no credible witness that you are a prophet, then you are just a person who claims too much. A little humility would be proper and thus far I would be excited to see you exhibit any of the cardinal virtues and other gifts of the H...more

Prophet,

Prophets usually don't call themselves prophets. By reputation others call them Prophets because they prophesy and are never wrong, and since you have no credible witness that you are a prophet, then you are just a person who claims too much.

A little humility would be proper and thus far I would be excited to see you exhibit any of the cardinal virtues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I am not Catholic for various Scriptural reasons, but this does not mean I think Catholics are not Christians. They are just as much as you are.

By your writings I will guess you have never been invited to an ecumenical meeting, so I will tell you that you would be surprised how much the body of Christ is fragemented and how often someone says they are led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation to have another Christian interpret that same passage completely different. The Holy Spirit cannot be wrong, so only one group can be right. Just because you say your interpretation is right, then back it up. You would be surprised how convincing some arguements can be objecting to your interpretation.

So, if so many are wrong and there are so many different denominations saying different things and yet all say they are guided by the HS, then someone is wrong. It is only logical. We need to have the HS guide us all to Truth and discover once and for all the fullness of Christianity and that will be the Church I will be in.less

Star2, I was saved, I am saved and I will be saved. Tit 3:5- He saved us throu bath of rebirth, nerwal by the Holy Spirit. When you are baptized, the water washes away your sin through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit now dwells within you and you are sealed as a disciple of Christ. Only through trinitarian baptism are you a member of the body of Christ. To be born again is...more

Star2,

I was saved, I am saved and I will be saved.
Tit 3:5- He saved us throu bath of rebirth, nerwal by the Holy Spirit. When you are baptized, the water washes away your sin through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit now dwells within you and you are sealed as a disciple of Christ. Only through trinitarian baptism are you a member of the body of Christ.

To be born again is to be baptized by water and spirit. Pentecostals are always looking for some sort of ecstatic experience. Emotional experience is not a measure of one's faith or level of Grace.

When I was baptized I was saved, then I had to make a choice for Christ at the age of reason. I did. So, I have been baptized and had faith. I have had many emotionally uplifting experiences as a Christian. I have not walked away from him my entire life so I have never had that epiphany type moment that many people experience psychologically because I was never far from him. Those who experience this emotionally based feeling are only realizing their need for God and to turn away from their past evil deeds and lifestyle. I am not saying that I don't sin, because I do but I have never walked away from the faith my parents instilled in me. I have always lived by the 10 commandments because my faith in Christ tells me this is how I show my love for Him.

Your definition of "Born again" is a new definition and it is unbiblical in your understanding and has absolutely no historical merit.

Faith is a gift from God it is not a work. We are saved by Grace, so for infants the Grace of Baptism is enough to save them but this does not mean they are saved later if they reject faith in Christ.

Your definintion of Born Again is reduced down to a emotional experience. Again, Pentecostals are high on emotion but not too high on theological insight. Low theology high emotion. This is why Pentecostalism is a free for all, and why they split up more than Baptists do.
Other than some Assembly of God leaders, most Pentecostals look down on education. They say they want to keep it simple, but I think they just don't want to be educated because it will prove their hypothesis of scripture wrong.less

Prophet, The Kingdom of God is for everyone especially children! Mark 10:13-14 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) 13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of ...more

Prophet,

The Kingdom of God is for everyone especially children!

Mark 10:13-14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

You are officially corrected. As a Pastor I charge you to see the counsel of the Holy Spirit through Scripture.less

Prophet, I am not Catholic. I am a Reformed Minister with a PhD in Systematic Theology and a duel Masters in Historical Christianity and Scripture. I do not twist Scripture and I only agree with what the earliest Christians did and how THEY interpreted Scripture. Baptism of infants is scriptural and historical. Peace+

Prophet, I have much enjoyed reading many of the things you have posted in the past. I do feel that you have misplaced your energy against the Catholic Church though and should focus that energy on liberals, relativists and secularists which all three may be the same. Right now, Reformed Churches, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodosts, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ and Orthodox are a...more

Prophet,
I have much enjoyed reading many of the things you have posted in the past. I do feel that you have misplaced your energy against the Catholic Church though and should focus that energy on liberals, relativists and secularists which all three may be the same.

Right now, Reformed Churches, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodosts, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ and Orthodox are all having very high level discussions at the Vatican. The fact is the Catholic Church is the biggest defender of Life and of traditional marriage. We Reformed see their strength in these areas where they always stand up for Christian values even before us Protestants come around to it like abortion. Catholics were always first to recognize abortion was wrong and it took many years before many conservative Protestant Christians realized this as well.

I say this because of the moral authority the Catholic Church has shown its steadfastness which has lead many denominations who are dealing with a bunch of nutty liberals who interpret the bible morally very different to see the strength of the Catholic Church. This has led us Reformed at least to start to deal with each doctrine that sepparates us. When I say high level conversations I am talking about the brightest and most gifted scholars that all Protestantism has to offer working with Catholic theologians to erase this divide.

Truth will never be sacrificed for unity! Scripture will never take a second seat to Tradition, so we are working dilligently with the Catholics to see this through. More progress has been made in the last 5 years than in the last 400. The end times could be here soon. We must strengthen each other to be strong against the devil.

I pray with the Grace of God that in less than 50 years that the majority of Christianity with be in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I don't know if that future catholic Church will have a Pope or not or have the same powers of jurisdiction or not or whether ecclesiology will have to change to in order to mirror Scripture and historical record. I pray for unity.

Extreme Fundamentalist Christians have little more than a small voice because God doesn't want their hatred of other Christians to be heard. God will either bear fruit in you or he won't. Fundamentalists bear little fruit on the worldwide stage for God, so they have little impact and this is why they are so vocal and belligerant.less

Believer, I made no assumption. In Jn 3:5 and Mk 16:16 we see that Baptism is required for entering heaven. Lk 18:15 we see that people were even bringing infants to him. We see in Col 2:11-12 that baptism has replaced circumcision. In Acts 16:31 we see if the husband of the family believes then the whole family will be saved. In Acts 16:15 and 16:33 and 1 Cor 1:16 we see whole households being...more

Believer,

I made no assumption. In Jn 3:5 and Mk 16:16 we see that Baptism is required for entering heaven. Lk 18:15 we see that people were even bringing infants to him. We see in Col 2:11-12 that baptism has replaced circumcision. In Acts 16:31 we see if the husband of the family believes then the whole family will be saved. In Acts 16:15 and 16:33 and 1 Cor 1:16 we see whole households being baptised and this meant everyone.

If you are an adult or of the age of reason you must have your own faith and then be baptized. If you can't speak for yourself, then your parents can speak for you. Remember it is Grace that we are saved, not by works!

The faith of the parents does provide for the baby who cannot speak for themselves, but they Must and I repeat must accept the faith of their parents in Christ at the age of reason. Baptism will save infants because original sin will be washed away. Once the child reaches the age of reason they must have faith.

Hipplolytus of Rome(215ad)"Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themslves(infants), let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents for other relatives speak for them."

The fact is history speaks volumes of all Christians baptizing infants. We as Christians are new Jews in Christ and what circumcision was for the Jews baptism is for the Christians(covenant theology).

Why is there not one writing in the first 1600 years of Christianity challenging infant baptism??? Because the Apostles clearly taught that the Kingdom of God is for children too(Mk 10:14).
Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, Orthodox, Lutherans, Reformed, and many others practice infant baptism because it is biblical and historical. Only newer christian groups reject this because they refuse to tie history with Scripture. These groups represent over 85% of Christianity and we all believe that Baptism of infants is right and those who do not baptize infants and rather dedicate practice a antiquated Mosaic law practice for Nazarites which is completely unheard of in the New Testament and any early Christian history. They simply never dedicated babies.less

Star2, I will answer this question about infants and baptism. We in the reformed Tradition have always baptized infants. Why? Well, when scripture explicitly says that whole households were baptized then we believe that whole households were baptized which includes all members. Your error, my sister in Christ, is that you have adopted the theology of specificity. You would also have a p...more

Star2,

I will answer this question about infants and baptism. We in the reformed Tradition have always baptized infants.
Why?

Well, when scripture explicitly says that whole households were baptized then we believe that whole households were baptized which includes all members.

Your error, my sister in Christ, is that you have adopted the theology of specificity. You would also have a problem with the incarnation, the Trinity, confirmation, confession, etc. Even the Apostles Paul likens Baptism to circumcission. Now, adults are never circumsized so why would he use this analogy then?

Please study covenant theology for a better perspective. Old covenant was established with the Hebrew people through circumcision. The new covenant relationship with God is through Baptism. It is God's gift and that is why infants are allowed to receive this gift of Grace, but the they must reaffirm their baptismal grace through confirmation when they are of the age of reason where God confirms them for more of an adult relationship with God and the Holy Spirit works more fully in their lives(See how at Pentecost the Apostles were confirmed by the Holy Spirit). That was confirmation.

The biggest problem with Pentecostals and Baptists is that they reject the historical record of early Christians. They won't even look at it and seriously don't care about historical Christianity because it would counter many of their beliefs. We see clearly in history in the first century that the disciples of the Apostles baptized infants. THEY ALL DID IT. You will see it from the very beginning. Where Scripture ends, history shows how they understood it.

Infant baptism is scripturally and historically a Christian rite. Dedications are from Mosaic law and only apply to men who want to live as a Nazarite. Dedications never occured until the late 1900's. They are not a rite of Christianity, they are jewish and for men only.less

Believer brought up a good point and good for you Chris in responding back charitably. Now that is how Christians of the Body of Christ should handle each other. MSNCHRIS, It is a waste of time to deal with Star2 or Online or Wilderness or Swordbearer. They are like children with massive ego's and they do lack any foundational education to offer a truly academic and critical analysis. ...more

Believer brought up a good point and good for you Chris in responding back charitably. Now that is how Christians of the Body of Christ should handle each other.

MSNCHRIS,

It is a waste of time to deal with Star2 or Online or Wilderness or Swordbearer. They are like children with massive ego's and they do lack any foundational education to offer a truly academic and critical analysis. They always react emotionally and throw Scriptures out of context at you and others who don't go along with what they said. They are neither conservative or liberals, they are heterodox in most everything that they spew out.

As a Reformed Minister, I rebuke you Star2. Seek help.less

The word Evangelical has thoroughly lost its meaning. The article should read, "Obama could garner 40% of Christians who have little to no moral hiearchy of Values."

Don't believe the hype. Us Evangelical Conservative Christians are the silent majority. We don't participate in these polls and on the day of election will suprise even our fellow Christians when we come in force to elect McCain as our next President. I like many of you don't like ANY of our choices. I think they are all horrible. Although I thought Bush has done a horrible...more

Don't believe the hype.

Us Evangelical Conservative Christians are the silent majority. We don't participate in these polls and on the day of election will suprise even our fellow Christians when we come in force to elect McCain as our next President.

I like many of you don't like ANY of our choices. I think they are all horrible. Although I thought Bush has done a horrible job as President in his second term, I would have still never have voted for Kerry. Bush appointed another Christian conservative on the Supreme Court and that is his one saving grace. I wil vote for McCain because he is the best of the two evils.

McCain is less evil than Obama and I will never vote for more evil.less

Cont'd. There are no anathema penalties today and yes the Catholic Church can revoke a penalty anytime it wants. The infallible dogmas will never change though, so if you believe different than what the official teachings are then your are encouraged to reconcile yourself with the Church. If you do not reconcile, then you are outside of communion. We Protestants are outside of this commu...more

Cont'd.

There are no anathema penalties today and yes the Catholic Church can revoke a penalty anytime it wants. The infallible dogmas will never change though, so if you believe different than what the official teachings are then your are encouraged to reconcile yourself with the Church. If you do not reconcile, then you are outside of communion. We Protestants are outside of this communion, but we by our mutual call to Baptism with Catholics are imperfectly united with them in the bruised and damage but one body of Christ.

What they believe in who Jesus Christ is as their Sole LORD and Savior cannot usurp anything they wrongly believe about other things.less

Online, Your ego is greater than your ignorance. So you are the authority on the Catholic faith? The Pope is only infallible in faith and morals and the Pope has full binding and loosing authority in those cases alone. The anathemas or penalties are no longer in effect; however, if you are a Catholic and do not believe in all the Catholic dogmas then you are under minor excommunication and ar...more

Online,

Your ego is greater than your ignorance. So you are the authority on the Catholic faith? The Pope is only infallible in faith and morals and the Pope has full binding and loosing authority in those cases alone. The anathemas or penalties are no longer in effect; however, if you are a Catholic and do not believe in all the Catholic dogmas then you are under minor excommunication and are called to reconcile your mind and heart with Holy Mother Church. There is no penalty other than not taking the Eucharist until you are reconciled. Anathemas are penalties and they are not infallible and therefore may be revoked at any time. The Infallble dogma or doctrines of the Catholic Church is what may never change.

There is no penalty of going to hell or anything like that, and you spin this to your own error.
The Catholic Church admits that it has no power to send someone to Hell, but through their prounouncements where they "Allow" Satan and his angels to mortify your body you may still be saved by reconciling yourself with Christ. Everyone can be saved who asks for forgiveness. Again, this shows that Catholic canon law and theology limits the power of the Church to the mercy and Kingship of God who is not limited to human understanding and justice. Moreover, if you were a Catholic and left the Church and became Protestant like many of our ancestors did, then your conscience has led you to do this and you cannot be found guilty for following one's conscience since that is the highest form you should follow.

It must be a fully and well formed conscience. Catholic official teaching does not anathematize any protestant today because our conscience has lead us to be Protestors, and only a handful of people were officially anathematized and because the process took so long some were even dead before the penalty took place. We don't know the exact number of total Catholics anathematized, but it could be less that 20 people.

We Protestants are by our own conscience drawn to be outside of communion with the Bishop of Rome. Whether we Protestants are right or wrong, God's prudential judgement will not judge or hold us liable based on Catholic canon law and theology whether it is based on experience or ignorance. Catholic theology doesn't condemn us and we should not equally condemn them.

In the end, it is all summarized on whether the Catholic Church has the official power to send people to Hell. The answer is no, and they readilly admit it officially and unofficially. They believe their authority can drive that person to be "scared out of Hell" by this solemn announcement.less

ACLU = ANTI CHRISTIAN LIBERAL UNION

Star2, Topekan and MsnChris are absolutely right! What's amazing is putting these three posters together on one line, so there is hope for all of Christianity. As a minister for many years in both Reformed and Evangelical Churches I find Obama and his stance on life and marriage issues repulsive. I was talking to an old friend of mine who is a Catholic Priest and he said something t...more

Star2, Topekan and MsnChris are absolutely right!

What's amazing is putting these three posters together on one line, so there is hope for all of Christianity.

As a minister for many years in both Reformed and Evangelical Churches I find Obama and his stance on life and marriage issues repulsive.

I was talking to an old friend of mine who is a Catholic Priest and he said something to me that was quite funny, "It is great having a candidate like Obama, because maybe fundamentalist Christians might see Obama's anti-Christ qualities more clearly now and stop focusing all their hatred on past Popes who have always received their venom and never were they the anti-Christ in the first place." Funny, but true.

Well said felllow Posters, Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing and while it is hard to get fired up for McCain let us realize that millions of babies lives depend on us to vote for McCain. The sanctity of marriage depends on voting for McCain. These are grave times.less