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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
FT's Comments
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The AP got it wrong, and CP should drop or edit this story. Here's what Palin REALLY said:
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."
What's missing from the AP's version? Right - the beginning of what she said, the part that makes clear she's not asserting that we're doing God's will but simply praying that we are. It's the difference between me saying "McCain will win" and "I pray McCain will win." The first is an assertion of fact/secret knowledge, the second is an expression of desire/hope. The AP actually stoops to picking up the quote mid-sentence to make it better fit the stereotype of the holy-roller yokel claiming divine inspiration for Bush's Crusade.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/04/yawn-the-ap-smears-palin-over-prayer-for-troops-in-iraq/ -
The AP got it wrong. Here's what she really said:
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."
What's missing from the AP's version? Right - the beginning of what she said, the part that makes clear she's not asserting that we're doing God's will but simply praying that we are. It's the difference between me saying "McCain will win" and "I pray McCain will win." The first is an assertion of fact/secret knowledge, the second is an expression of desire/hope. The AP actually stoops to picking up the quote mid-sentence to make it better fit the stereotype of the holy-roller yokel claiming divine inspiration for Bush's Crusade.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/04/yawn-the-ap-smears-palin-over-prayer-for-troops-in-iraq/ -
Pro-Huckabee Activists to Dissuade McCain on Romney Ticket
FT »Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:42 pm
Agree: 3 
Disagree: 5
It would be wise of McCain to avoid Romney. There is little doubt in my mind that such a choice would cost McCain the election. On the other hand, surprisingly, I think a Joe Lieberman pick would be good for McCain.
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The LDS religion cannot be "proved." No religion can be "proved." Religion requires faith.
The LDS religion, however, is one of the few that can be literally DISPROVED. It has been disproved.
Faith goes beyond reason, but it need not be against reason. For the LDS, faith is against reason. The Book of Mormon narrative has been factually disproved. Joseph Smith has been proven as a con man, an adulterer and a child seducer such that today he would be in jail or free only as a registered sex offender. The Book of Abraham has been proven to be a complete fabrication.
There are valid judgment concerns about one who allows himself to believe in Mormonism. -
When Paul wrote of the Jews - "For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge." - he could have been writing about the Mormons. Mormons are great people, but they have been horribly deceived. Just as Paul prayed earnestly for his Jewish brethren, we should pray without ceasing for our LDS brethren.
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In Jesus' day, there were those who had added all sorts of "rules and ordinances" which they said were of God but which were really of men. Jesus described them by quoting Isaiah:
These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
God is not about Masonic temple rituals (and your temple rituals are not ancient). He is about love and GRACE. Like Paul prayed for the Jews, I prays that you will come to learn the truth of God's grace. Paul wrote: "For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge." -
Yes, Chet, we must be servants of satan. I would submit that you have not investigated your faith in the detail necessary, or you simply have not been able to do so with an open mind. If you really examine the facts, it is black and white. I doubt there is any way for me to say that without you being somewhat offended.
I make no aspersions about the intelligence of LDS. They are, as a group, as smart or smarter than most. You yourself sound very bright. We humans, though, have an amazing ability to limit ourselves to small, subjective viewpoints. I am not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, but one of my greatest strengths is my ability to see things objectively. I am always the mediator of disputes among friends or family. I can usually see both sides (or all three sides, or all four sides).
In this case, the clear and convincing evidence is against the LDS church. Many former LDS have "light bulb" moments where they figure it out, and when they look back, they cannot believe how they "could have been so blind."
This is a very human trait. So, I believe that you have not closely examined the facts with an objective mind. This is obviously not the place to debate specifics, but if you have any interest in such a discussion, you may email me at ftaggie at yahoo dOt com. -
You have confidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have confidence that the Bible is God's Word, preserved for us.
I think my confidence is better placed! :)
I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the Bible is God's Word and that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the God of the Bible is the only true God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the LDS church is a false church, designed to ruin and deceive millions. But there is GOOD NEWS. Jesus Christ is Lord. He died for your sins, and if you accept Him as He is, and devote your life to Him, you can live with Him in everlasting paradise.
Do not be deceived by the cunning of men. God's grace comes to you not through a supposed "restoration" or through man-made ordinances and rules. His grace comes to you through the blood of Christ, through faith. You are in my prayers, Hesadanza. -
"How do we know there is only 1% variance from the original. We do not, because we don't have an original."
This is where you are, respectfully, mistaken. We do know. How? We know through the discipline of textual criticism. Because there are so many thousands of ancient copies, we can identify where changes were made. Because there are so many copies for different times and different locations, we have great confidence in what passages are always the same.
Imagine that St. Paul sends a letter to the church at Corinth. The church receive the letter,a nd during Paul's life, it is copied again and again and again. Corinth sends it to Ephesus. Ephesus sends it to Rome. Rome sends it to 4 other cities. Those cities send it to other cities. Pretty soon, there are dozens or hundreds of exact or near exact copies of Paul's letter. All this occurs, mind you, during Paul's life. No one - not a single person - not even Paul - know where all the copies have gone or how many copies exist. Paul's letter to Corinth has now spread far and wide and been read by many members of "The Way." Now, imagine this process repeated again and again with the other books of the New Testament. By the time the apostles die, and in the years following, there are untold exact or near exact copies of their writings. These copies are in unknown locations. So, anyone who set out to destroy the originals would be faced with an impossible task. The would-be destroyers would not even know where to start!
Now, fast forward 2,000 years. Many thousands of the ancient copies are lost to time. They were swallowed up by the ravages of time and humanity. Many thousands, though, remain.
Because we have so many, we can compare similarities and differences. By this comparison, we can determine with great confidence what Paul first dictated when his scribe wrote the letter to the church at Corinth. -
Hesadanza, there were more than 4,000 changes from the original Book of Mormon text to the one we have today.
You will reply, "Oh, those were mostly spelling and punctuation and things like that." For the most part, you are right - although there were substantive changes as well.... But the changes in the Greek text are similar. The texts have small variations in spelling and such, but less than 1% of variations are of any substance. Of that 1%, no major Christian doctrine is impacted.
So, the bottom line is that the Bible is very reliable. God preserved His Word. -
Well, there is no ORIGINAL manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Funny how that alleged angel took the gold plates away!
The fact is that we have GREAT CONFIDENCE in what the original text would have included. Let me explain. We have thousands of copies of the Greek texts - from different times and different locations. We can compare a text from Egypt from the year 236 to a text from Athens from 362 to a text from Rome from 192 to a text from Lyon from 400, etc.
Because we have so many copies, from so many different dates and places, we can see where all the texts agree and where there are differences. By this careful study, we have a very high confidence of what the original authors wrote.
The original authors of the Bible were inspired. The inspired text is found in the Greek. Translation of the Greek is not an inspired activity. It is a scholarly activity. -
Hesadanza, the NT was originally written in Greek. We have more copies today of the Greek manuscripts than were possessed by the KJV translators. We are also better with our knowledge of Koine Greek. For these reasons, Bible translations have gotten better - not worse. The KJV is inferior, and your scholars must know this. It is very pretty, but it has some errors.
As far as changes, you should know that by way of textual criticism, we have excellent confidence in the text so far as every major Christian doctrine is concerned. There is no plain and precious truth missing from the text. -
Hesadanza, do Mormons believe the Bible is the Word of God?
If your answer is, "as far as it is translated correctly," what does that mean? Translated from the Greek? -
By some estimates, in the foreseeable future China will have the largest numbers of Christians in the world.
Pretty exciting to see God moving! -
PART 4
There is much more to the Mormon issues, but I hope you can see how reasonable people could doubt the judgment of a man who bases his entire life on a thoroughly discredited religion. Good man? Probably. Good policy views? Don't know enough about them. Good enough for the oval office? Not if he is a believing Mormon.
CAVEAT: I wrote this post earlier this year. Since that time, people have argued that bad judgment as to religion does not necessarily translate into bad judgment on other matters. In other words, Romney could be a whiz at governing even though he was duped by Joseph Smith and company on religious matters. There is some merit to this argument. Still, I find it hard to trust the guy given the availability of the FACTUAL evidence against his faith.
We cannot throw reason out the door when it comes to religion. Let me say again that I am not concerned about Romney's faith issues - but rather his judgment. Mormonism teaches that you can progress to become a "god" with all the powers of Jesus. If Romney believes that - fine, that is a matter of faith. I have no problem.
If he believes Joseph Smith could interpret Egyptian, then I have a big problem - because it has been proven otherwise. See the difference? -
PART 3
Second, consider one of the other Mormon scriptures: The Book of Abraham. Much of Mormonism's unique theology comes from this book. The origin of this book is one of the clearest proofs against Mormonism. Joseph Smith purchased some papyrus that was found with an Egyptian mummy and was part of a traveling museum show. At the time, no one in the USA knew how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs. Joseph Smith took it upon himself to "translate" the papyrus he bought. The result was the "Book of Abraham" - a tale of Abraham's trip to Egypt where he was almost killed by an evil Egyptian priest and where he sat on Pharaoh's throne and explained astrology to the Egyptians.
Well, once Egyptologists learned to read hieroglyphs, and once the papyrus was analyzed, it turns out that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up. The papyrus was nothing more than a common funerary text. (Details here: http://www.bookofabraham.info/)
Whether one becomes or remains a Mormon should have little to do with faith. It has to do with simple reason. Think about it this way: If I tell you I have a marble in my closed fist, you may, on faith, believe me. If I open my hand and show you that there is no marble, then the truth trumps your faith.
For Mormonism, the hand has been opened, and there is no marble to be seen. Only those who do not investigate or who suffer from cognitive dissonance can accept Mormonism's claims.
You may be thinking, "Wait, can't you make that argument about any religion? Couldn't you say that someone who believes the Red Sea parted or Lazarus rose from the dead or Jesus was resurrected is being 'irrational'? If you apply this standard, doesn't every religion fail?" No, and here is why. Those kinds of examples (raising the dead, etc.) all depend on the miraculous power of God. Reasonable people can assume the possibility of the miraculous. If you believe in God, then you can believe that He can do miracles such as raising the dead and parting the Red Sea. The Book of Mormon is stuffed full of such miracles attributed to God. I have no quarrel with those who acknowledge the possibility of the miraculous, and I have no complaints about Mormons for their belief in miracles. Allowing for miracles, though, is quite different than ignoring factual claims. -
PART 2
You are probably thinking, "OK, but your thesis depends on an assumption that Mormonism can be disproved. That sounds unlikely to me."
Not really.
Mormonism can be disproved for many reasons but primarily because of the audacious nature of its claims. There are two prime examples.
First, Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is the story of a Hebrew tribe that emigrated to the Americas and founded an advanced, flourishing society of Christians that lasted nearly 1,000 years.
Archaeology can test this claim. If the Book of Mormon recorded actual historical events, then there are quite a few things that which archaeologists would discover. There would exist the remains of a vast civilization on the American continents which, between 600 BC and 400 AD, planted wheat and barley, had a Judeo-Christian religion, used a hybrid form of Egyptian and Hebrew language and script, used horses, had the wheel, rode chariots, used smelted iron and steel, fought great battles with armor and swords, created democratic institutions, etc. (All such things are described in detail in the Book of Mormon.)
No trace of such a civilization has ever been found, and it never will be. (See: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/testingthebookofmormon.htm) DNA evidence has also disproved these claims. (Details are here: http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm) -
PART 1
Assume with me for just a moment that Mormonism is not just another religion. Assume that it can be literally disproved. Unless you have studied Mormonism (most haven't), you cannot know whether it can be disproved or not, but just assume it can be.
With that assumption, consider: I would likely not vote for Mitt Romney.
Why: I do not apply a religious test to the presidency, but I do apply a judgment test. While I would vote without hesitation for the right candidate of mainstream religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Buddhism, I would not vote for a candidate who clings to an outlandish religion such as the Raelian religion or Mormonism. If a person can be duped by a fringe religion (Raelians), or a cult (Moonies) or a religion that has been proven false (Mormonism), then that person lacks the judgment for the oval office. Again, this is a judgment test rather than a religious test.
I think many people will feel this way about Mitt Romney - regardless of his policy views.
Presidents must have both good judgment and good character. While I am sure Mr. Romney has good character, if he is a temple-recommend-holding Mormon, he lacks good judgment. -
In order to be a temple-recommend holding Mormon, Mitt Romney has to believe the a thriving society of Christians dominated the Americas for nearly 1,000 years, had horses and chariots, steel weapons, grew European crops and held democratic elections. He has to believe Joseph Smith, Jr., could read and interpret Egyptian, and didn't fancy young girls. He has to believe that our sun draws its power from a star called Kolob and that American Indians are descended from Hebrews.
If Romney can believe all those things which have been proven factually false, fine for him. But I don't want him as president. The president must have more readily apparent critical thinking skills. -
Southern Baptist Leader Clarifies Alleged Romney Endorsement
FT »Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:14 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
ep1433, I have had LDS friends correct me on many aspects of the LDS faith, and I have accepted their correction. For example, I once thought there was an error in the Book of Mormon as it said Christ would be born in Jerusalem. A Mormon explained to me that Bethlehem and Jerusalem are very close to each other and that "Jerusalem" could encompass Bethlehem. Based on how he explained it, I thought it was reasonable, and I accepted the explanation. I stood corrected and withdrew that criticism.
Let me also say that it is very, very hard for some people to examine things with an open mind. I know a very smart man who just has a massive blind spot when it comes to Jewish people. He is anti-Semitic, and he cannot see how such views warp his objectivity.
I confidently advocate my views, but I also listen. I hope you would expect no less of me.
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Holy Bible: Mosaic
On our own we are little more than bits of stone and glass. Together we are the Body of Christ. Holy Bible: Mosaic is an invitation to experience Christ in His Word and in the responses of his people. Each week, as you reflect on guided Scripture readings aligned with the church seasons, you will receive a wealth of insight from historical and contemporary writings.
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