Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

DRJ-Exactly!

Pastor-"Without God in the picture, what is the point of your life"

Pastor, I can't believe your life is so meaningless that you need god. I live a fantastic life: twin boys, I sail, I'm a falconer, great job. I don't need to dwell on an afterlife. I make the most out of now, not bank on a maybe in the future.

And yes, I know there is no logical proof of god. Your faith makes god for you. Your fellowship with other christians make it a belief system. Great, have fun. When you start asking questions like "what is the point of life..." is when I say "how dare you.". I enjoy a debate on evolution, the false logic presented here just drowned that out (found more info on that error by the way if your interested.) Again, not searching, just want to give a fair and balanced side to the argument. I mean, if you don't want the opposite side of the story whats the point of debate or conversation?

"Don’t you hope for something better than this? Don’t you want there to be more?"

Again, make now matter. I don't sit around hoping I'll win the lottery. I work and live life to the fullest. As I said before, even IF there is a god, I want nothing to do with it.

Think I'm going to feed the horse to my bird.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

To bury the dead horse, your "logic" was incorrect. I know you won't buy this, but a text on logical argument trumps your belief:

Begging the Question

An argument begs the question when it makes use of a premise that no one who didn't already accept the conclusion would believe. Simply put, an argument begs the question when it reasons in a circle or presupposes the truth of the very thing it's trying to prove.

Your logic assumed the existance of god before the result. It is invalid. I agreed to parts of your logic, not the existance of god. I guess I'm not the only one who needs lessons in logic. I'm sorry, its cut and dry.

I was frustrated because your defending an incorrect argument. The above shows its incorrect. You cannot accept that because it blow your argument. I'm not going to beat my head against a rock trying to show your error. Neither am I going to admit to something I didn't say. You guys can celebrate all you want on "how hard you stuck it to him", but I am laughing because your celebrating an error. Way to go!

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Pastor-Falconer and Torus or any others for that matter - What I really would like to know is, if you are an atheist, what are you even doing on this website? If you are truly an atheist, you would care less what any Christians thought about anything. So, why are you here checking out Christian news and responses from Christians?

wow, sign of a losing argument when you go to insults or questioning the debate. Why shouldn't we be here? Is your faith so weak as to fear debate? I've learned quit a bit about new christian ploys to avoid debate. Thanks guys! I thought the animal rights wingnuts were sneaky!

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The primise must be true, there is no god, primise is false, conclusion is false. Sorry, would YOU like the link? Its a christian telling others how to go in circles with false logic. Right up your individual allys! I also understand you do not understand science. No prob. I will thank you both for a good education in christian loop logic! Seeing I do biological research, I think I know what goes into it (can can hurl snide insults if you want, I expect it). Thanks again, won't waste so much of my time talking in your circles.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I understand your confusion. Facts are the bane of christianity. I'll end this now, your premise is incorrect. There is no god so your conclusion is false. If you would like I could include a link to learning deductive logic, if that would help. It struck on the way home why you were wrong. Try again, this time with real facts not flawed logic. LOL

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I was right. Found the christian guide to "keep in the logical realm". Makes more sense now. I buy it even less.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Well, I guess we can go around in circles forever. Bottom line, logic cannot prove reality. Sorry. The logical argument for god is a popular one among christians because they can make it work. Lets turn this slightly to evolution as an example. We have proof. Physical, historical, scientific proof. Thats something that the god question will never have. I keep saying I want scientic, physical proof. We have proof that is currently undergoing a CT scan to further nail down the facts ("mummified" hadrosaur). You keep going back to the logical proof because thats all you have and it is not enough. Scientific examination discovered why bees could fly. And as you said it was illogical that a bee could fly but it could, then obviously just because logic says there is a god doesn't make it so. Seem you shot your own self in the foot (to coin a phrase I read somewhere). You can't pick and choose and as you have shown yourself, logic isn't perfect. As far as what could convince me, physical proof. Bible stories are great, where is the evidence. The only "proof" of any supernatural events fall in religious rightings. There were many historians that wrote nothing. Of course you could claim censorship, but that doesn't fly any more than your logic. There is research refuting various biblical stories (flood for instance) and plain physical timeline doesn't track. I know you said your not one who readily believes the 6k year earth age. In the early 2000's I read how biblical archaeologists were basically censured for using the bible to verify finds instead of verifing the bible with their finds. I know you have to work with what you have, but putting your belief in the hands of deductive logic exclusively....

And as Pastor shows, christians seem to have problems with the whole theory, law, etc.

Glad there was a snow storm and the office is dead.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

And I repeat it is not.

All fish swim in the water (true)
Whales swim in the water (true)
All whales are fish (untrue)
This can be determined through scientific means. Whales are mammals.

I have a cat (true)
Tigers are cats (true)
My cat is a tiger (untrue)
Can be proven because I’m typing this.

1. You exist. (true)
2. If you exist, something must have always existed because something doesn't come from nothing. (true)
3. There are only 2 sources of eternal existence: an eternal universe and an eternal creator. (true)
4. Science has disproven the concept of an eternal universe. (true)
5. Therefore, God exists (prove it)

If your logic says its true you should be able to prove it outside of logic, otherwise logic is useless. The use of logic only to prove god is a very easy out, you say science can’t prove logic. Again, if what you said were true, we would all think whales are fish. Science did not rely on the logic, a statement was made, science found it to be incorrect. If logic and reality disagree, reality wins. That is a fact that cannot be argued. Logic doesn’t rely on logic for answers, logic shows science where to look. I found a few excellent quotes to end with:

Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
Joseph Wood Krutch

Logic: an instrument used for bolstering a prejudice.
Elbert Hubbard

Logic is neither a science nor an art, but a dodge.
Benjamin Jowett

The bottom line is that logic alone can tell us nothing new about the real world. Ditto for mathematics, as Albert Einstein observed: "Insofar as mathematics is exact, it does not apply to reality; and insofar as mathematics applies to reality, it is not exact."


Cheers

Mall Shooting Leaves 9 Dead, 5 Injured

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 7

Living in Omaha and having 2 friends on the same floor as this guy your being far to simplistic. You may think god is the answer to everything, but it isn't. Take a look at the Westboro fanatics and their god. Everyone has their own version.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Fair enough, fair enough. Now seeing a logical argument really doesn"t prove reality, lets move into the real world and your real world assertions. I could "logically" deduce that a whale is a fish, and by that deductive reasoning it would be a true statement. But the real world truth is that its a mammel. So I'll concede your logical MODEL is correct. Put it to REAL WORLD USE. You can't, it falls aprt on you. You might be a whiz at logical arguments for what their worth, but come into my parlor. Or are you afraid your logical house of cards will fall?
Prove to me in the REAL WORLD that the age of the worlds is only 6-10k years, or any other so called proof of biblical evidense. Your "logical" victory is really meaningless unless you can back it up.

I do however, recognize your strawman tactics and won't bite. Finish your assertion.

Oh yeah, I'm not easily offended.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Loop logic at its best but:

1)You can't deny the second premise because no one (scientist or otherwise) believes that you can get something from nothing. An eternal 'something' must exist. Literally no one believes otherwise.

Does not prove the existance of a "creator" or "god". You add that in. If something existed it must be a creator. Not good enough.

2) You can't deny the first premise because you have to exist to deny your existence so that is self-defeating.

Biology 101. Does not prove the existance of a "creator" or "god". Evolution is a better answer for #1 . Not good enough.

3) You can't deny the third premise because either you have either an impersonal eternality or a personal eternality. No other option is possible.

How does this prove a god? Not good enough.

I'll leave 4 alone as multiverses and such are not my field. Not good enough to prove a "god"

5. Therefore, God exists.

??????. Really. Pull a diety out a hat I guess.

"At this stage you will twist and turn and likely hurl insults because the logic is inescapable. If an impersonal eternality isn't an option, than a personal eternality is the only other choice. And if you cling to the impersonal eternality, you do so by faith alone. Out the door go all the logic, science, reason, and touch-and-feel-it evidence you claim to follow. Now it becomes a matter of the will alone. "

Nice speech trying to cover your behind. I exist so god exists, god exists so I exist. Please. Remember what I said about loop logic.

"And no, the above doesn't prove the Christian God, but it certainly buries true atheism"

It doesn't prove any creator existed. That something existed, yes. As you said something does not come from nothing (except some hollywood actors carreers). This does not indicate an intelligent designer in any way.

"Now, back to my question: Give me your proof for atheism or your top 3-5 points of why atheism is true and no God exists."

I will use your argument as you haven't proven there is. You can't. The inaccuracies of the bible which you base your faith on is the blow that puts the myth in the ground.


"Thanks for the dialog, BTW.. "

The pleasure is mine.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

One last thing, before you try and say the bible is accurate. I will conceed the the bible contains some accurate historical events and people. I will except it can be used in an historical sense. The mythology that was added is not. Its no different than taking "History of Europe 1500-2000" and adding Jesus. The fact that many major historians and scholoars of the time make no mention of Jesus for instance is a MAJOR consideration. As are the similarities between stories that were written by other cultures and stolen for the bible. The inaccuracy of the sermon on the mount. This all leads to the conclusion that the bible is not an accurate book.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

OH, and since everyone wants us to prove evolution...prove god exists. Without your loop logic, without the unsubstantiated bible (wouldn't work in the scientific field). Prove that the argument is WORTH being put next to evolution. Is WORTH being debated. You will fall short.

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

And thats how insidious religion is. That is why it doesn't belong in a science class. Its clssic loop logic. "You can't disprove he exists so he must". The same with prayer: sick relative>pray>gets better-gods work, dies-god called him home, gods will. Very nice position to be in. The prayer for rain in Georgia???LOL Just wait, its called nature. I look at the scientific side of the coin, of nature. The religious need some type of future after death to make their lives worth while. Religion is nothing but a tool to control the sheep, so they can be sheered.

'Golden Compass' Author Denies Promoting Atheism in Books

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

ignore that, wrong article!

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Here you go Tom-

(Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Dang, a "christian" schooled by an athiest. Get your sunscreen ready! LOLOLO

'Golden Compass' Author Denies Promoting Atheism in Books

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Here you go Tom-

(Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Dang, a "christian schooled by an athiest. LOLOLO

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Tom-I welcome any debate! I wonder, what you will use for evidence? The bible is out, unsubstantiated. There are a few christian scientists who try and bend the science to fit the religion. THere are more christian scientists who see the truth in evolution with their own eyes and except it as part of creation (not REAL christians I'm sure). Again its science vs. religion. If the concept debated is SCIENCE, religion loses. Why do you think the false concept of "intelligent design" has been shot down time and again. Please, I welcome the debate. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

HyperionOversee isn't there something in the bible about calling someone a fool? Not being a good christian!!! LOL

Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

Falconer33 »

Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Pastor, Tom and maranatha7593 here is why god does not exist:

By your belief god knows everything, he knew each of our lives before the universe was created. He knew the choices we would make and how we would die. He created hell to torture those that refuse to bow to him. So lets recap, he created those billions of people who he knew from the start would not bow to him with the sole purpose of torturing. God of love and mercy is it? Hitler just killed people, Manson just killed people and they were considered sociopaths. During my stint at a SOthern Baptist school (I have recovered) I asked the question: What happens to those in other parts of the world, places that have never heard of Jesus? Answer: HELL. No thanks, if you can somehow rationalize that and sleep, you go.

TOM, learn some science and facts not fed to you by a pastor.

Anti-God Bestseller Sparks Anger in Turkey

Falconer33 »

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

It's amazing to me that many Atheists spend their lives trying to disprove God. Men like Dawkins and other Atheist authors, scientists and those of you who write here on the Christian Post, talk about God more than the majority of average believers


Are you trying to silence debate? Are you trying to stifle free thought? Non-believers have the right and sometimes duty to give another view. Why are the creationists trying so hard to insert ID into science classes? Are you (christians) afraid of free thought?

playing out the authors fantasy of children killing God. Most likely this stems from underlying hidden anger and a fear that He actually does exist.

Again, great reason why we write books and speak out. You have never read this series and are only regurgitating what you have read on incorrect christian websites. The entity killed was NOT the god of the bible, but an entity PLAYING god to the easily duped. Very common themee in fantasy/sci-fi. Here is an awesome quote:
Pullman: … I think these people are…it’s ridiculous. It’s very absurd. They never learn. They never learn that if you want to draw attention to a film to make everybody curious to go and see it, then make a fuss about it. It always happens, every single time they try to do this. They never learn.

And the other thing they never seem to notice is that they are behaving exactly in the way I describe the religious authorities — who have got their hands on political power — as behaving. In other words, they are repressing arguments, they are repressing freedom of speech, they are trying to prevent people from understanding things; they are doing exactly what I describe in the book. It’s not surprising that they are creating a fuss. But I do wonder that they never learn that the result is always the opposite of what they claim they want.

SOund familiar?