wJ, you have gotten yourself here into a conversation, begun by gd, on this subject. Feel free to move onto another topic.

gd, let me refresh your memory here (if necessary, I'll go back and cut and paste some of your comments if it would make it easier for you). You said "Incestuous procreation spreads disease", and proceded to relate how that justifies the law deeming it illegal on that basis. I have shown you how you that is incorrect, but that it is in fact correct in relation to homosexuality. And now you wa...more

gd, let me refresh your memory here (if necessary, I'll go back and cut and paste some of your comments if it would make it easier for you).

You said "Incestuous procreation spreads disease", and proceded to relate how that justifies the law deeming it illegal on that basis. I have shown you how you that is incorrect, but that it is in fact correct in relation to homosexuality. And now you want to gloss right over your assertations and turn the whole thing around......a bit of bias here, I would think.

You need to do some research. Though certainly some of the diseases homosexuals get are present in the heterosexual population, the prevelance in the homosexual population is greatly increased. Furthermore, there are several diseases and medical conditions peculiar to homosexuals, which are not found in the heterosexual population. Now, you may not like these facts, but it is in fact the case, and is well documented in the medical profession.

I simply used your argument about "incestuous sex and disease" in relation to legal parameter to show that the same argument is valid for homosexuals. Show me where I am wrong.less

gd, you're not very good at word usage, are you. "what I am is sick and tired of of the same-old same-old nastiness from those who come on this site to bad mouth Christians who have the temerity to believe God at His word." This is by way of saying ......."christians who just DARE to believe God". A bit of sarcasm intended there, gd. I used the word correctly. I'm glad you liked his joke, ...more

gd, you're not very good at word usage, are you. "what I am is sick and tired of of the same-old same-old nastiness from those who come on this site to bad mouth Christians who have the temerity to believe God at His word." This is by way of saying ......."christians who just DARE to believe God". A bit of sarcasm intended there, gd. I used the word correctly.

I'm glad you liked his joke, my point was that the giver of the joke and the imminently pleased sharer of the joke have a humor-button equivalent to that of a 10yo. And when you become a mature person, jokes at the expense of others will not be perceived to be humorous.less

gd, let me put this as clearly as I can. Genetic mutations are a condition, not a disease. Did you read that whole l-o-o-o-o-o-ong paragraph on the explanation of hereditary factors that you cut-and-paste? Perhaps you need to go back and read it more slowly, because if you're not familiar with that type of thing it is most definitely confusing. Congenital disorders have many causes, and are ...more

gd, let me put this as clearly as I can. Genetic mutations are a condition, not a disease. Did you read that whole l-o-o-o-o-o-ong paragraph on the explanation of hereditary factors that you cut-and-paste? Perhaps you need to go back and read it more slowly, because if you're not familiar with that type of thing it is most definitely confusing.

Congenital disorders have many causes, and are more prevelant than most people realize. Certain circumstances increase the risk, including drug and alcohol ingestion, certain prescription medications, and yes, close kin associations, but there are many others also. In truth, the percentage of congenital abnormalites caused by so-called incestuous relationships are only a small portion of the total -- and remember, I said relationships, as you don't have to be married to have sex.

So, what we are saying here is that a big legal deal is made in order to protect against a miniscule problem in the area of congenital problems. Is it worth it? Perhaps. How much more so is it valid to protect against the FAR GREATER problem of disease, disability, morbidity, mortality, and mental health issues of the homosexual relationship (see your previous legal argument re: disease and incestuous marriage for a valid argument on this issue).less

Nope!

"temerity noun audacity, nerve (informal), cheek, gall (informal), front, assurance, pluck, boldness, recklessness, chutzpah (U.S. & Canad. informal), impudence, effrontery, impulsiveness, rashness, brass neck (Brit. informal), foolhardiness, sassiness (U.S. informal), forwardness, heedlessness patients who have the temerity to challenge their doctor". Yep, like I said, temerity is the word I ...more

"temerity
noun audacity, nerve (informal), cheek, gall (informal), front, assurance, pluck, boldness, recklessness, chutzpah (U.S. & Canad. informal), impudence, effrontery, impulsiveness, rashness, brass neck (Brit. informal), foolhardiness, sassiness (U.S. informal), forwardness, heedlessness patients who have the temerity to challenge their doctor".

Yep, like I said, temerity is the word I wanted, as in, "how dare those christians have the impudence to... (or, are brash enough to, or dare, or audacity, etc. etc). Taught you a new word, didn't I? I have an excellent vocabulary, thanks to my mom who made us look up every word we didn't know in the dictionary, and since we read a lot, that was a LOT of words!!

I know how old you are. Your sense of humor compares with that of a 10 year old, who is about the proper age to want to "frame" that imbecilic excuse of a joke.less

gd, that's not disease.

gd, consanguinity does not refer to disease, but rather refers to "a close affinity or connection". There is no disease association with close kin relationships. However, referring back to your original statement, which was "Civil marriage is not about procreation, however preventing the spread of disease falls under the jurisdiction of the law. That means outlawing anything, within reason, th...more

gd, consanguinity does not refer to disease, but rather refers to "a close affinity or connection". There is no disease association with close kin relationships.

However, referring back to your original statement, which was "Civil marriage is not about procreation, however preventing the spread of disease falls under the jurisdiction of the law. That means outlawing anything, within reason, that may lead to spreading diseases, including incestuous marriage and sex.", let's look at this for a moment.

We have now established that close kin relationships do no spread diseases. However, statistics show that homosexuality is replete with problems relative to diseases, in the area of increasing occurences, introducing new strains, and rate of transmission. (Don't bother to deny this, sites such as CDC inarguably attest to this fact, and you can hardly say that they have been overtaken by the christian right.) Now, using your own argument, I would say that even though close kin relationships don't spread disease and therefore don't fall under said legal parameters, homosexuality is statistically proven to fully fall under these parameters and should therefore be outlawed under our legal system.

Or, perhaps, your bias will cause you to change your argument?less

Yep, temerity is EXACTLY the word I wanted. Maybe you should look it up, hmm? And in the example below, young would refer back to my statement on 10 yo boys.

You are simply repeating yourself. Just HOW does incestuous procreation (or marriage) spread disease.

Really gd? Since when is self discipline some kind of negative control issue. Perhaps we should just slap the murderers on the hand for their lack of self discipline, as we certainly don't want to be guilty of "contol"! And empower them you say? What we would empower, their right to go around getting their kicks with no consequences, giving them an out by murdering babies as a cure for thei...more

Really gd? Since when is self discipline some kind of negative control issue. Perhaps we should just slap the murderers on the hand for their lack of self discipline, as we certainly don't want to be guilty of "contol"!

And empower them you say? What we would empower, their right to go around getting their kicks with no consequences, giving them an out by murdering babies as a cure for their bad behavior? Gosh, sounds like a reasonable trade off to me!!!!!

Tell me, are you teaching your toddler to repress his urges? Are you teaching him not to bit, or hit, or kick you in the leg, or throw his food on the floor even though he doesn't like spinach? Or are you planning to wait until he's 16, or 14, or 12, and one morning wake up and say "son, it's time for a man -to-man talk. We will no longer tolerate you biting, or kicking, or throwing your food on the floor......."

The option for so-called "accidents" is called raise a child or adoption. The cure for ignorance is education, specifically abstinence. Kids have an amazing ability to live up to your expectations, or down to them if that is what you present instead.less

gd, just how does incestous marriage and sex spread disease?

I know Clover, but it would factor in if we would face the reality that we need to teach our kids properly in our school systems, instead of sending people like PP in to the sex ed classes to tell our kids that "sex is great and fun and ok and without consequences, so have at it, and by the way, here's our card so that when you get pregnant after having all this fun we'll just take care of that li...more

I know Clover, but it would factor in if we would face the reality that we need to teach our kids properly in our school systems, instead of sending people like PP in to the sex ed classes to tell our kids that "sex is great and fun and ok and without consequences, so have at it, and by the way, here's our card so that when you get pregnant after having all this fun we'll just take care of that little bitty problem for you so you can go out and have some more great fun and then come back and we'll take care of you again and....."

Sorry, I feel pretty strongly about this, as if that's not obvious LOL.less

There's an inherent conflict of interest in supporting an abortion provider under the guise of birth control availability, What we need to do instead is take the money given to PP and give it to local clinics that DO NOT provide abortion services in order to provide contraceptive education and supplies. And abstinence is unrealistic only because we don't see fit to teach it seriously to our ...more

There's an inherent conflict of interest in supporting an abortion provider under the guise of birth control availability, What we need to do instead is take the money given to PP and give it to local clinics that DO NOT provide abortion services in order to provide contraceptive education and supplies.

And abstinence is unrealistic only because we don't see fit to teach it seriously to our young people, more's the pity.less

hu, really? Would you care to give me several examples of this? And sanctimonious I am not; what I am is sick and tired of of the same-old same-old nastiness from those who come on this site to bad mouth Christians who have the temerity to believe God at His word. There are many of all faiths, and no faith, who disagree with the civil rights mantra of homosexuals, so if you want to spout your v...more

hu, really? Would you care to give me several examples of this? And sanctimonious I am not; what I am is sick and tired of of the same-old same-old nastiness from those who come on this site to bad mouth Christians who have the temerity to believe God at His word. There are many of all faiths, and no faith, who disagree with the civil rights mantra of homosexuals, so if you want to spout your vitriol go do it on a homosexual site where you will be appreciated, because you are shouting in the wind on a conservative belief Christian site. That's just the facts.less

Sorry gd, genius level only if you are VERY young.

Is that what I think productive is? Only the walking the dog part, but I thought the rest might appeal, based on your sophmoric sense of humor. And gd, laughter is not "the best medicine" when done at the expense of others.

latebloomer, at the risk of sounding old fashioned, the cure for that is abstinence, for all unwed people. The worst thing done for society was the sexual revolution coupled with no fault divorce. Really, throwing consequences of our actions to the winds for the sake of "what I want right now"....and then using our lack of self discipline as an excuse for killing babies as an answer to the conse...more

latebloomer, at the risk of sounding old fashioned, the cure for that is abstinence, for all unwed people. The worst thing done for society was the sexual revolution coupled with no fault divorce. Really, throwing consequences of our actions to the winds for the sake of "what I want right now"....and then using our lack of self discipline as an excuse for killing babies as an answer to the consequences of sex-with-no-strings-attached, is pretty pathetic.

That said, since the problem is definitely real, perhaps we could educate our kids firstly in school about the importance of self discipline and the real life consequences of actions, and secondly make available to those outside the school system (adults, like those you mention) realistic education and birth control measure. Because killing babies is certainly not the answer.less

What kind of social programs do you have in mind?

Alright, I might agree 11 yo, but it's pretty juvenile for sure! Come on guys, take a break, go walk the dog, count the pennies in your change jar, pull your nose hairs or something that's a bit more productive.