For statistics on race breakdown on abortion: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/births_deaths_marriages_divorces/family_planning_abortions.html

"comedic genius". Really. Don't quit your day job. You two really need to go to a site that will appreciate your mind sets, perhaps something for 10 year-olds, because that is about how grown-up your comments are.

Nellie, "but no one denies that certain of Pauls letters were written by someone pretending to be the Apostle Paul. It is not opinion, it is fact. And there is nothing in the New Testament that contradicts it." This is incorrect. You may not give credence to those who have shown differently, but the fact is that this is all old news and is not "fact". You want me to show where in the Bibl...more

Nellie, "but no one denies that certain of Pauls letters were written by someone pretending to be the Apostle Paul. It is not opinion, it is fact. And there is nothing in the New Testament that contradicts it."

This is incorrect. You may not give credence to those who have shown differently, but the fact is that this is all old news and is not "fact".

You want me to show where in the Bible God says "this is my inerrant word", but of course you think 2Tim is forged, so you don't accept that.

What IS fact is that Jesus spent 3 years teaching His apostles BEFORE sending the Spirit to "remind" them, and why you would think He would not give us instruction, but rather think we are somehow capable of discerning the voice of the Spirit all by our childish lonesome selfs without instruction, makes little sense. My God is quite capable of providing exactly what he wanted us to have, and I suspect that sometime in the future proof of this will finally be found. In the meantime, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.less

No, I said the normative was 1 man and 1 woman, I didn't say there weren't other relationships scattered around at different times. Brothers and sisters "way back when" worked because the gene pool was huge, it finally narrowed after a long long time until the Hebrews were then told, no more. Joseph Smith decided he wanted more women, ergo "he got THE word". MY point is, in spite of various...more

No, I said the normative was 1 man and 1 woman, I didn't say there weren't other relationships scattered around at different times. Brothers and sisters "way back when" worked because the gene pool was huge, it finally narrowed after a long long time until the Hebrews were then told, no more. Joseph Smith decided he wanted more women, ergo "he got THE word".

MY point is, in spite of various spin-offs, the normative is man/woman, because that is what works best. Amazing that God knew what He was about, wouldn't you say?

We live under the NT as Christians, and all that is in it. That's the difference between OT and NT. Much has been said about moral vs. ceremonial, etc., law, so it doesn't need repeating. We are held accountable through Christ and His grace, not under the Law, as Paul so ably explains in his many letters. If you read them, you will then understand the difference between OT and NT. But then, I suspect you already know that, don't you.less

rocknmike, we would not have much of a civilization to worry about culture if homosexuality was "natural and the norm". But the truth is that I am accountable to the Creator, the giver of the laws of the universe, not man's culture, and ultimately, whether you follow His laws or not, so are you. Same sex sex is not created order, and man trying to say differently does not make it so.

Nellie, I have not been brainwashed. What I have is the Spirit, who came to me when I came to Christ. It is obvious that you believe totally the things you say, but I do not agree that because some scholars say they don't think certain letters are valid, that that settles it. Many other scholars are convinced that the letters (ergo authors) are valid and authentic. And this just points bac...more

Nellie, I have not been brainwashed. What I have is the Spirit, who came to me when I came to Christ.

It is obvious that you believe totally the things you say, but I do not agree that because some scholars say they don't think certain letters are valid, that that settles it. Many other scholars are convinced that the letters (ergo authors) are valid and authentic. And this just points back again to my assertation that God would not give us a book filled with "some are ok, some are not" articles.

The authors were either moved through God and the inclusions were moved by God, or the Bible has no intrinsic value as the Word of God. A perfect God either provides a manual with true instruction, or it is not His manual, or there is no God. This same perfect God made a perfect world with perfect life, and then made the life called man in His image, raising him above all the other creatures and giving him free will, so that love and obedience would be a choice. All that God did was perfection -- why would He change that for an instruction book to His children. A God of order would not present disorder in the form of presentation of His will.

You are basically saying that God gave instructions to His children in chaotic manner, and we are supposed to figure it out on our own? If the apostles needed perfect instruction, being the first children of the new covenant, and only AFTER that would the Comforter "remind" them of what they had been taught, why would God think we needed any less? I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. Man is the imperfect creature, his ways are subject to error, not God's. If the Bible is God's letter to His people, then He would not allow man's imperfection to mar His work.

Nellie, satan, the great deceiver, presents himself as an angel of light, and man is peculiarly subject to deception from satan, as man is weak and easily swayed. Man is not capable, on his own, to easily discern the voice of the Spirit vs the wiles of satan -- look at the world around us for proof of this. And that is specifically why we have the Bible, as a foundation from which to immerse ourselves in God's truth. From there is the springboard to discern the true voice of the Spirit, as the Spirit will never lead us away from the precepts in God's Word. An imperfect Word would give us nothing but an imperfect springboard.less

Children are taught the value system of their parents at home, which is their rightful responsibility. A 4 year old cannot even begin to process this kind of information, let alone understand the differences, it's nothing but confusion to them. The school's business is to educate them in the basics of reading, math, and the like, not to inculcate a worldview.

Actually, pedophilia involves prepubescents, so these cases would be ephebophilia. Nevertheless, nobody, christian or otherwise, would condone their actions.

"There's nothing new under the sun". So, just because it existed, which we all know (education, of course), didn't/doesn/t make it normative nor civilization producing. Get educated yourself.

Nellie, God preventing Japan's disaster is not in the same category as preventing errors in the Bible. The Bible is our basis, our comparison for truth, our instruction manual. I do not agree that He chose to allow errors in the form of lying letters. I agree there is definitely evil in the world, and much more to come. All the more reason to provide us with an instruction manual capable of th...more

Nellie, God preventing Japan's disaster is not in the same category as preventing errors in the Bible. The Bible is our basis, our comparison for truth, our instruction manual. I do not agree that He chose to allow errors in the form of lying letters. I agree there is definitely evil in the world, and much more to come. All the more reason to provide us with an instruction manual capable of thwarting evil's lies.

What guarantee do we have that if a secretary wrote for, say, Paul, it would say so? What guarantee do we have that ANY letter writer is guaranteed to say in the body that they did write it (though of course most of the time it does say so). What if I sent you a letter by a mutual friend -- why would I need to sign it? What if I only had 1 hour to write it instead of 2 days, would that affect my wording? What about my mood? What about the subject matter? You could look up all the posts I wrote tonight (which have mostly, actually, been to you, lol), take my name off of them, and would you be sure to say, boy that sounds just like GMG?

No, though we all definitely have differing styles, etc., we don't always sound the same. The people that make a business of studying these things are, after all, only imperfect people. And there is much disagreement on this subject. Many in the business attest that the writers attributed are, in fact, genuine. So what are we to do about these differing opinions from all these "experts".

You are correct that if God wanted to write an inerrant Bible we would have one. And I posit that if God is indeed God, then there is no feasible reason we don't have one, for all the reasons I have already listed, and more. Why would God present us with a vehicle for instruction, but allow that vehicle to be errant? To test our ability to hear the Holy Spirit? Would God treat His children in such a manner, to set us up for a fall? No, His instruction manual would not lead us astray, which in the very nature of God would require that what we have is His valid Word, enough so that we would have the basis for life as He intends for us. The Comforter fills in the blanks, as He leads us into understanding of the basics and beyond.less

No, I'm not saying a lie is okay in the Bible; I'm saying that God is totally capable of preventing that lie (lying letter).

Nellie, we can't argue that just because He didn't say it in some exact word format that something isn't so. If He told His apostles many many things, for what purpose did He do so? If He was going to send the "comforter" for all these things, then why did He bother to tell the apostles so many things? He could of said a few things, done a few miracles, waited until they said "wow, this guy KNO...more

Nellie, we can't argue that just because He didn't say it in some exact word format that something isn't so. If He told His apostles many many things, for what purpose did He do so? If He was going to send the "comforter" for all these things, then why did He bother to tell the apostles so many things? He could of said a few things, done a few miracles, waited until they said "wow, this guy KNOWS something", then sent the Holy Spirit for all the rest. But no, seems He knew man needs much, much instruction to fall back on.

If His apostles needed this, how much more so do we, especially not being able to be in His presence. Personally, if I picked up a book, started reading it, discovered that there were some things in there that weren't accurate, then I certainly would have no confidence in the author. I think that is pretty basically the human condition. So our Creator, knowing this in us (after all, who know us better?), is going to provide us a letter full of errors? This makes absolutely no sense. At least, it makes no sense from a Being powerful enough to accomplish His perfect will.

He gave us the Comforter to EXPAND on our knowledge, after giving us a base for our knowledge (which we also need Him for). We know it's the Spirit by comparing it with what we already have; otherwise, we would have no way to know if it was satan instead. Think about it -- if we don't have the basis for all truth in that Book, then what a field day satan could have with us, and all we could say is, ummm, duh, I THINK I'm reading the real part of God's word, aren't I? Boy, what a loving Father that would be, to put us into that kind of perdicament.less

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Give it up jrcp, all cultures, of any and no religion, celebrated marriage as between man and woman. It's only our current, "oh-so-enlightened" post modern opinion that tries to celebrate what does not uphold the building of civilizations. hide

Actually, we don't in truth really know all that Jesus said -- John tells us that it would be, basically, impossible to write down everything Jesus revealed to them. So, I would consider His apostles to be capable of providing some of that for us. We don't KNOW what kind of "proofs" will be found in the future to prove inerrancy, but we do know that what has been found so far shows us how am...more

Actually, we don't in truth really know all that Jesus said -- John tells us that it would be, basically, impossible to write down everything Jesus revealed to them. So, I would consider His apostles to be capable of providing some of that for us.

We don't KNOW what kind of "proofs" will be found in the future to prove inerrancy, but we do know that what has been found so far shows us how amazingly constant the bible is from what was written "way back then". We don't "know" those letters were forgeries, and better minds then yours or mine attest to their authenticity. But the question is, what in those letters, if anything, contradicts others? Is God capable of using man to put together His book, just as He was capable of having man write His will. And if God wasn't capable of that, then is He God?

He knew where the world would be today. He knows when he's coming again. Do you think He would leave His people without the tools needed to show His will? What kind of witness would He be providing us with a "some is true, some is not" guide to show where our hope lies?less

Christ preached a lot of things, including God's plan for marriage. He also said a few things like "broad is the path, narrow is the gate....", "go and sin no more", talked some about sin, hell, people who claimed to be His but weren't. Lots about love, lots about justice, even trained and equiped some people to leave behind to help us understand more of what He taught. Try reading the Bible fo...more

Christ preached a lot of things, including God's plan for marriage. He also said a few things like "broad is the path, narrow is the gate....", "go and sin no more", talked some about sin, hell, people who claimed to be His but weren't. Lots about love, lots about justice, even trained and equiped some people to leave behind to help us understand more of what He taught. Try reading the Bible for God's perspective, not man's. You might just find in there some condemnation too.less

Nellie, you don't really know what I believe, but I'll be glad to tell you a few things I do believe. I believe that if God is the Creator, then providing scripture for use that gives us the truth would be a piece of cake for Him. I believe that the Holy Spirit can certainly guide us to truth, but that as we are such physical, hands-on types (complements of God), He also realized we needed a gui...more

Nellie, you don't really know what I believe, but I'll be glad to tell you a few things I do believe. I believe that if God is the Creator, then providing scripture for use that gives us the truth would be a piece of cake for Him. I believe that the Holy Spirit can certainly guide us to truth, but that as we are such physical, hands-on types (complements of God), He also realized we needed a guide to turn to (In the OT He gave this to the people on a regular basis through His prophets). His Word tells us that He would send the Comforter to "remind" us of all that had been taught, for us we get that from His Word. I believe that there is a very inherent danger in thinking that "all we need is the Holy Spirit", considering the nature of man and his gullibility and multiplicity of weaknesses. God also knew this (duh).

And by the way, I also believe that some of the things denominations differ about are not a big deal, though sometimes they seem to make them so. However, some of these issues can sure get in the way of the growth God wants from us. But, that said, there are definitely issues that separate the sheep from the goats. I do not believe that any "church" has it 100% right, and I spend a lot of my time on my knees as God and I work on growing me.

And I disagree with you as to whether or not your faith in Jesus is the issue...He is what separates Christians from all other "religions".less

Adam, I'm sorry to hear that. But our faith is in God, not people. I too, have had many experiences that weren't "christian", and we sure expect better from those calling themselves that. But I'm afraid it's not going to get better, but rather worse, which is all the more reason I'm so eternally thankful that I came to know the Lord so many years ago. If you know any mature Christians that you...more

Adam, I'm sorry to hear that. But our faith is in God, not people. I too, have had many experiences that weren't "christian", and we sure expect better from those calling themselves that. But I'm afraid it's not going to get better, but rather worse, which is all the more reason I'm so eternally thankful that I came to know the Lord so many years ago. If you know any mature Christians that you feel close to, maybe you could join them at their church as you seek for a church home that better portrays God's word in deeds. God be with you.less

Alright, but how do you determine the truth of that -- in other words, how do you determine which parts of the Bible are true and which aren't.

4 is a little young for this type of thing don't ya think.....

NellieFreedman, you said "Well, the Bible is 100% proven to not be error free. It contains truth, but there are errors by man. Not by God. So, I don't have a "religion". I have faith." So how do you determine truth then. And what is you faith based on.