Mike85 Okay, I've spent quite a bit of time looking up information regarding "bisexuality", and it's simply mind-blowing the definitions out there -- everything from as simple as "Sexual attraction or relationship between members of the same and opposite sex" to many multiple categories of bisexual behavior and causes. So, it would appear that everyone with a sexual drive is either l00% hete...more

Mike85

Okay, I've spent quite a bit of time looking up information regarding "bisexuality", and it's simply mind-blowing the definitions out there -- everything from as simple as "Sexual attraction or relationship between members of the same and opposite sex" to many multiple categories of bisexual behavior and causes.

So, it would appear that everyone with a sexual drive is either l00% heterosexual, 100% homosexual, or they are bisexual. How neatly that fits together! And you say that it is all completely natural with no choice involved. How 100% gene driven we all are.

The idea that all sexual behavior is acceptable does not exactly fit into the idea that our creator God created with purpose in mind. Everything from the laws of existence down to the laws of behavior have a purposeful pattern -- except sexuality? And yet God said, of man and woman, they are to become "one"; that appears rather definitive to me.

Mike, either God sets the parameters, or we do. Either we chose to pursue His way, or we don't. It makes no logical sense to deny that God had in mind definitive purposes for all of His creation, and determined a method by which to accomplish this, and then says “Oh well, I’m willing to flow with your culture, I love you so it’s all okay”.

Think on this. What you are basically saying is that all sexual identity is acceptable, made so by God. But can you truly study His Word on this subject and come away with that same thought? My challenge to you is to do just that, study His Word in total. You are the only one answerable to Him for you.less

Hman >>>If He is a just God, then He will do what is just. A just God will love us as He created us: gay. I suspect you mean to say that He is a wrathful God, not a just God. Justice is good, and wrath is evil.<<< Nope, I meant "just". God is the one who lays out the rules. We don't get to claim superior knowledge and remake His rules. But that means if we choose to live outside of His...more

Hman

>>>If He is a just God, then He will do what is just. A just God will love us as He created us: gay.

I suspect you mean to say that He is a wrathful God, not a just God. Justice is good, and wrath is evil.<<<

Nope, I meant "just". God is the one who lays out the rules. We don't get to claim superior knowledge and remake His rules. But that means if we choose to live outside of His created intention, then He many indeed unleash a “righteous wrath”. But that is His perfect choice also. Who are you or I to tell Him what is appropriate or right?

And btw, He does love us and want us to come to Him, but that entails a “new heart” that longs to learn and follow His ways.less

RC >>>Claiming "Having been a single custodial parent with 4 children it appears I know a bit more on this subject than you do." with no knowledge of my family or children proves you to be completely disingenuous. It further points to the fact that you have been struggling with your own homosexuality for some time.<<< I’m sorry, I must be missing something here. Just how does this quote yo...more

RC

>>>Claiming "Having been a single custodial parent with 4 children it appears I know a bit more on this subject than you do." with no knowledge of my family or children proves you to be completely disingenuous. It further points to the fact that you have been struggling with your own homosexuality for some time.<<<

I’m sorry, I must be missing something here. Just how does this quote you provided from Daniel Paul serve as further proof that he is struggling with homosexuality?

>>>The fact is those who would vote to disallow children to have married parents do so through prejudice and hatred, not any love of children.<<<

Through this reasoning, it would seem that you strongly believe that the qualifier for marriage is raising children together. If this is true, then you must believe that any combination of consenting adults should be able to marry in order to provide a proper home for the children in their care. Is this then your belief?less

RC >>>Certainly I can see that Daniel and Believer have a lot of personal issues with their own homosexuality, but how can they want to deprive children of married parents out of their own personal issues. It is just plain immoral.<<< So if someone spends time speaking out against, say, child abuse, then they struggle with their own tendency to abuse children? Or child porn, same thing? Th...more

RC

>>>Certainly I can see that Daniel and Believer have a lot of personal issues with their own homosexuality, but how can they want to deprive children of married parents out of their own personal issues. It is just plain immoral.<<<

So if someone spends time speaking out against, say, child abuse, then they struggle with their own tendency to abuse children? Or child porn, same thing? That's quite a leap don't you think.less

Mike85 >>>GMG, I didn't have to convince myself of anything. You claim to want discourse, but its very clear you want me to say you're right.<<< I thought this was a discussion. So do you not want to address this? “And yet, as we have gone over earlier here, if you go back to context and intention, all God's word, in the end, points to His original creation intention in Genesis. After...more

Mike85

>>>GMG, I didn't have to convince myself of anything. You claim to want discourse, but its very clear you want me to say you're right.<<<

I thought this was a discussion. So do you not want to address this?

“And yet, as we have gone over earlier here, if you go back to context and intention, all God's word, in the end, points to His original creation intention in Genesis. After creating the animals and creating mates for them and saying it was good, He created Adam and said he needed a mate too and proceeded to create Eve, saying that they were one, and that this was good. He then, throughout the Bible, proceeds to name all "oneness" outside of this as not good. Logical progression makes intent and context pretty clear.”

You seem to think that polygamy follows this logical progression, why then does it not apply to anything else?less

Rhi, It would seem that his key issue is the right to vote. Would you argue with that right?

Mike85 >>>GMG, homosexuality was never once addressed when it wasn't an ACT tied to a specific sin (i.e. rape, idolatry, etc.) <<< Yes, I know you believe that. But in the same manner that you have convinced yourself, others have convinced themselves of their own view on polygamy and divorce. And yet, as we have gone over earlier here, if you go back to context and intention, all God's wor...more

Mike85

>>>GMG, homosexuality was never once addressed when it wasn't an ACT tied to a specific sin (i.e. rape, idolatry, etc.) <<<

Yes, I know you believe that. But in the same manner that you have convinced yourself, others have convinced themselves of their own view on polygamy and divorce. And yet, as we have gone over earlier here, if you go back to context and intention, all God's word, in the end, points to His original creation intention in Genesis. After creating the animals and creating mates for them and saying it was good, He created Adam and said he needed a mate too and proceeded to create Eve, saying that they were one, and that this was good. He then, throughout the Bible, proceeds to name all "oneness" outside of this as not good. Logical progression makes intent and context pretty clear.less

Mike85 >>>GMG, I don't think you have a choice whether or not you're attracted to the same or opposite sex. I do think you if you're bi you can choose to pursue one sex over the other, but that could also mean turning down someone who you are in love with. In regards to ignorance v. rhetoric, I think the two often go hand in hand, but are not the same. The ignorance was about your lack of knowl...more

Mike85

>>>GMG, I don't think you have a choice whether or not you're attracted to the same or opposite sex. I do think you if you're bi you can choose to pursue one sex over the other, but that could also mean turning down someone who you are in love with. In regards to ignorance v. rhetoric, I think the two often go hand in hand, but are not the same. The ignorance was about your lack of knowledge about bisexuality. Your rhetoric was that you're saying the same things I've heard time and time again.<<<

I do not have complete knowledge of any subject – do you? You are assuming ignorance; however, discourse was what I was after.

I have yet to hear any defense of the bisexual lifestyle, perhaps because it is so strongly linked with the idea of promiscuity. How many of the homosexual couples that have joined together in some sort of ceremony have claimed to be bisexual? I would imagine that if a bisexual intended to marry, he would then claim identification with either a homosexual or heterosexual bent. But if you can “choose”, then doesn’t this preclude the idea that your sexual identity is not a choice?less

Kim68 >>>GMG - why distract from my question by asking another? Why people shouldn't be able to marry their sister or their cat or their houseplant is a completely different discussion. As it is, nobody can marry their siblings, so that isn't a matter of equal rights. That makes about as much sense as asking why if you believe in the Bible, shouldn't we be stoning adulterers in the town square....more

Kim68

>>>GMG - why distract from my question by asking another? Why people shouldn't be able to marry their sister or their cat or their houseplant is a completely different discussion. As it is, nobody can marry their siblings, so that isn't a matter of equal rights. That makes about as much sense as asking why if you believe in the Bible, shouldn't we be stoning adulterers in the town square.<<<

No distraction, I simply expounded on your original question by broadening the category, as the same question could be asked, with equal veracity, of any category relative to “consenting adults”. Stick with the issue that you raised, which is the argument for or against allowing marriage on the basis of parental rights. If you grant marriage on that basis, then there is no practical reason to deny marriage to any of these other groups either. So, why should homosexuals fulfill that qualification better than any other group? They are the only category that cannot actually produce children on their own.

You pose many questions to others. Would you care to answer a few yourself?less

Al, well I suppose you may have forgotten what you had said and therefore couldn't relate my comment to anything you had said, so in deference to this: >>>You must accept that this is a secular nation, not a theocracy so remember that the next time you try to post that your religion is anything more than your belief and not something that is enforceable upon anyone else, no matter how much you ...more

Al, well I suppose you may have forgotten what you had said and therefore couldn't relate my comment to anything you had said, so in deference to this:

>>>You must accept that this is a secular nation, not a theocracy so remember that the next time you try to post that your religion is anything more than your belief and not something that is enforceable upon anyone else, no matter how much you want it to be the case.<<<

Ergo, my comment that "We vote our beliefs. So our beliefs have power."

My statement supports my position.less

· Alockslee » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:56 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag Al >>>Can an openly Gay person join the Knights of Columbus and maintain being gay while involved? How about a openly gay person without changing anything become a pastor of your church and not change the life choices? Those are 2 non gay places and without changing their lives but accepting the bible as a christian...more

· Alockslee »
Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:56 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0 Flag


Al

>>>Can an openly Gay person join the Knights of Columbus and maintain being gay while involved? How about a openly gay person without changing anything become a pastor of your church and not change the life choices? Those are 2 non gay places and without changing their lives but accepting the bible as a christian, can they be in those places? NO, they wouldn't be allowed now would they, so don't suggest equality is across the board and it is due in a major part to what your ideology preaches and forces upon everyone else. <<<

>>>How about Camp counselors at jesus camps run by f&e crowds? Can an openly gay person run a f&e camp?<<<

Good night, and you call yourself a lawyer?

Women can’t join the Knights of Columbus……should they lobby for equal rights?
A muslim can’t be a pastor of my church…….should they lobby for equal rights?
A practicing alcoholic can’t be a camp counselor at a Christian camp (nor would he be welcome at most camps)…should they lobby for equal rights?less

Well Mike, you said >>>GMG, when in doubt, respond in ignorance, huh?<< and then, when I asked what you meant >>>GMG, meaning you're speaking in nothing more than what I perceive to be rhetoric<<< They're not the same, so which is it?

So you are saying, then, that bisexuality is also a "no choice" issue?

Ah but Mike, you have to look at context and intention to see what God has to say about polygamous relationships. In addition, regarding divorce, you could also say that since it was not actively forbidden in the OT, that it was by default allowed (a type of acceptance by absence). Homosexuality in both the OT and NT specifically is addressed along with basically all other sexual sin. And by ...more

Ah but Mike, you have to look at context and intention to see what God has to say about polygamous relationships. In addition, regarding divorce, you could also say that since it was not actively forbidden in the OT, that it was by default allowed (a type of acceptance by absence).

Homosexuality in both the OT and NT specifically is addressed along with basically all other sexual sin. And by the same process as applies to polygamy, we come back to God's marriage design as man and woman only, for life.less

DP You are of course correct. Even as Christians we like to try to find excuses for our little foibles. The difference is, the Holy Spirit doesn't let us rest easy in that. Those involved deeply in behaviors at odds with God's word have the most to "lose" by seeking God, at least in their minds. What they don't understand is the peace He brings, the rightness in His way. Goes to that fac...more

DP

You are of course correct. Even as Christians we like to try to find excuses for our little foibles. The difference is, the Holy Spirit doesn't let us rest easy in that.

Those involved deeply in behaviors at odds with God's word have the most to "lose" by seeking God, at least in their minds. What they don't understand is the peace He brings, the rightness in His way. Goes to that fact that He has instilled in each of us the knowledge of Him, and so we each seek something on a spiritual basis in spite of ourselves. Wonder if there's a bit of "oh well, I'm sure He'll forgive me when He sees me, He'll understand" mentality that allows us to justify some of these things. Some tend to forget that He's a just God also.less

Mike85 >>>GMG, meaning you're speaking in nothing more than what I perceive to be rhetoric. I think bisexuality is fairly easy to understand, especially if (God forbid!!!) you tried to understand the idea of sexual orientation as a fluid concept (some people are entirely straight, some entirely gay, some somewhere in the middle....makes sense to me!)<<< Sexual orientation as a fluid concept?...more

Mike85

>>>GMG, meaning you're speaking in nothing more than what I perceive to be rhetoric. I think bisexuality is fairly easy to understand, especially if (God forbid!!!) you tried to understand the idea of sexual orientation as a fluid concept (some people are entirely straight, some entirely gay, some somewhere in the middle....makes sense to me!)<<<

Sexual orientation as a fluid concept? Do you mean, such as, it could change tomorrow? Under what circumstances, for what reasons

And btw, rhetoric and ignorance are not synonymous.less

Actually, what he's said is that the Bible shows that those involved in polygamous relationships have multiple problems due to those relationships, showing by effect that those relationships do not fulfill God's created purpose for marriage. For instance, the OT does not specifically condemn divorce anywhere that I know of. However, it does speak to living out your life with the "wife of your ...more

Actually, what he's said is that the Bible shows that those involved in polygamous relationships have multiple problems due to those relationships, showing by effect that those relationships do not fulfill God's created purpose for marriage.

For instance, the OT does not specifically condemn divorce anywhere that I know of. However, it does speak to living out your life with the "wife of your youth" in several places, Malachi being one. Additionally, in the NT Jesus says, in Matthew, basically that due to hard-heartedness Moses allowed divorce, but from the beginning it was not so.less

Mike85 >>>its interesting that the Bible speaks to polygamous relationships as being bad, but the BIble doesn't say a single thing about a gay committed relationship.<<< What verse in the Bible says they are bad, specifically. And does it differentiate between committed versus convenient?

Mike85 Meaning......?

We vote our beliefs. So our beliefs have power.